Wednesday, March 18, 2015

Its further proof that you believe fanciful tales



DE MARIA April 29, 2013 at 8:23 am
Robert said:
1. If Roman Catholicism has one set of rules by which to interpret Scripture, why is the church divided on questions of predestination and many other matters?
The Catholic Church is not divided on any issues. You are mistaken.
2. Protestants have one essential rule of interpretation—Scripture interprets Scripture.
Not really. It amounts to “your interpretation of this verse compared to your interpretation of that verse.
That we differ means we that we need to grow in our understanding.
Ok.
Your “principled way” of identifying true interpretation fails at the most basic level—you have no principled way to identify Rome as the true church based on the same criteria you have for Protestantism.
On the contrary, we have Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture, history, archaeology and many other sciences which lead us to the conclusion that the Catholic Church is the Church which Jesus Christ established. Scripture is the most powerful witness for me, personally and Scripture says that Jesus Christ appointed a Pastor as head of the entire Church:
John 21:17
He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
I see only a few Churches with such a Pastor. Further, Jesus Christ said that the Pastor over His Church would be infallible:
Matthew 16:17-19 (King James Version)
17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
The list of Churches accept this teaching gets smaller. Certainly, all Protestant denominations can now be eliminated.
Jesus Christ not only said that the Pastor was infallible but Scripture describes the Church as infallible:
Ephesians 3:10
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
The list remains the same, but now I can certainly eliminate all Protestant denominations.
Back to Matt 16:18, Scripture says that Jesus Christ established one Church. History shows that all the Churches sprang from the Church which is frequently described as the Mother Church. The Catholic Church.
By simple logic of elimination, that leaves only the Catholic Church.
3. If Protestants disagree with their church, they are duty-bound to discuss the matter with their elders and, if the elders cannot convince them, duty-bound to agree to disagree and remain in their church body if the matter does not touch the heart of the Christian faith or the tradition to which their church belongs.


That’s a big “if”. Let me give you a for instance from personal experience. The most difficult doctrine for me to accept was the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist. Transubstantiation. When I came back to the Catholic Church, I was not convinced that this was true. But I humbled myself and accepted it.

a. Do you consider this a matter which does not touch the heart of the Christian faith?
b. Do you consider that this is a matter which does not touch upon the tradition to which the Church belongs?
c. Would you accept this teaching even though you did not understand or believe it if your church began to proclaim it?

The fact that you have said that you don’t know Protestants who have done this means that you need to get some new Protestant friends who don’t believe the church started in the 20th century. They do exist.
I’ve never met any in person or on the internet. And I’ve been talking with Protestants about the faith for approximately 20 years now. Perhaps we can take a little straw poll on this site. Are there any Protestants here who would not leave a church which began to preach something about Scripture with which they disagreed?
Sincerely,
De Maria

  • ROBERT April 29, 2013 at 7:39 am
    De Maria,
    I’m glad that with the source you cite, you recognize that the Roman Catholic Church is merely one denomination among many, since it is included in that number.
    It is the only valid denomination. The rest are man made religions. The Catholic Church was established by Jesus Christ.
  • ROBERT April 29, 2013 at 6:36 am
    De Maria,
    The fact that we do not believe the church is infallible has nothing to do with the fact that it is not possible or that we cannot imagine it. It has to do with the fact that:
    1. Infallibility of the church is simply not taught in the apostolic testimony we possess, namely, Scripture.
    That is simply your opinion. We believe it is taught in these verses:
    Ephesians 3:10
    King James Version (KJV)
    10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
    1 Timothy 3:15
    King James Version (KJV)
    15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
    Are you going to tell me that we are wrong? If so, by what authority?
    2. If the church were infallible,
    The Church is infallible.
    there would be no need to warn us about false teachers arising in the church.
    Non sequitur. The fact that the Church is infallible has nothing to do with false teachers arising anywhere. Jesus Christ was infallible. But there were false teachers arising all around Him.
    Said teachers would be identified immediately by the episcopate and disciplined.
    Like Luther and Calvin? They have been identified and ejected from the Church. So have many others. But you still don’t believe the Catholic Church.
    3. If the church were infallible,
    The Church is infallible.
    Scripture would tell us to go find the bishop to identify the church,
    It does. But you don’t understand the Scripture:
    Hebrews 13:7
    King James Version (KJV)
    7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
    not to evaluate one’s teachers by the teaching given to the church by the apostles.
    I’m glad you said that.
    a. Notice that Scripture does not say to evaluate one’s teachers by your own understanding of the Scripture.
    b. You have made a false dichotomy. Jesus Christ built the Church on the foundation of the Apostles. And Jesus Christ deposited His Teaching with that Church, which today is known as the Catholic Church.
    c. And yes, it is based upon this Sacred Tradition deposited by Jesus Christ, that the New Testament was written and it is based upon this Sacred Tradition that one’s teachers are evaluated by the Church in accordance with Sacred Scripture.
    4. If the church were infallible,
    The Church is infallible.
    there would be no qualification “in the Lord” when we are told to submit to the church.
    Where is that qualification?
    Matthew 18:17
    King James Version (KJV)
    17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
    Hebrews 13:17
    King James Version (KJV)
    17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
    5. Rome has defined infallibility so narrowly so that they have an out any time somebody points out where they have changed their doctrine.
    The Catholic Church has never changed any Doctrine. Although Protestants regularly do so.
    6. Papal infallibility is a very late doctrine, fought against by some of the greatest thinkers of your church.
    Its a very early doctrine which is taught in Scripture and by the Catholic Church throughout history.
    7. At least at the earliest councils, you don’t have the bishops standing up and saying “Alright guys, here comes a Spirit-guided infallible pronouncement.”
    Nor do you have them saying, “Alright guys, here comes a non-Spirit-guided fallible pronouncement.” So what’s your point?
    8. Saying that there is no evidence that the bishops at Nicea thought they were fallible is a dodge that once again documents the failure of Rome to deal with the actual historical evidence.
    Claiming without any documentation or support, that the Bishops at Nicea believed the Church was fallible and not led by the Holy Spirit is a reach that proves your failure to deal with the actual historical evidence.
    There’s also no evidence that the bishops at Nicaea thought it was a good idea to tame pink unicorns or go snipe hunting. I guess that means they believed in such things.
    That sounds like precisely the logic you follow. As for me, I see that the Bishops at Nicea were Catholic, believing all the Catholic Doctrines which you deny. They were priests and Bishops which recognized the authority of their positions, celebrated the Mass, served the Eucharist, and accepted every Catholic distinctive which you reject. Believing all that, why would they deny one single doctrine which you claim they deny? No, its further proof that you believe the fanciful tales which you make up in the imagination of your mind, but are far removed from the truth of history.
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