Those who are saved will be drawn from the pool of those who keep the Law.

RT said:

True, its not the only way for you.

For anyone. And I know of many who followed the same route.

But it is the final deciding factor

Says who?

such that proving a line of succession according to Roman dogma is the final deciding factor in proving the church,

Says who? There are many deciding factors and they can come in any order. What makes you think this one even has to make the top ten? Where is it written? I want to see. Did someone take a poll? or what?

and that you’ll ignore the many, many breaks in that succession,

There are none.

ignore infallibility

The Pope and the Church united to him are infallible. Scripture tells me so.

when a heretical pope sits in the chair of Peter, etc.

If any pope ever taught heresy, he never taught it from the chair of Peter intending to bind the entire Church.

Quoting a verse with no exegesis proves nothing.

The Scripture I quoted is clear.

Nothing in this passage indicates that Peter is the supreme bishop of bishops. It’s simply an account of Peter’s restoration after denying Christ and a confirmation that His sin did not invalidate His apostolic ministry.

Jesus did not take anyone else aside and tell them to feed His sheep. Therefore, St. Peter is the Bishop of Bishops.

I see countless churches that have have a humble pastor, all in submission to Christ, the one true Pastor.

But very few with a Pastor who claims authority over the entire Church as Christ appointed.

I see one church who’s pontiff has historically claimed that he is the voice of God on earth and that apart from submission to him, there is no salvation.

Exactly as you would expect from a Church whose Shepherd was given the keys to the Kingdom of heaven and to whom Jesus gave the authority to bind and loose:
Matthew 16:18-19
King James Version (KJV)
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Infallibility is promised where in this passage?

Where it says, “what you bind on earth will be bound in heaven. What you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

And since a few chapters later, the authority to bind and loose is given to all the apostles, this passage if interpreted consistently would necessitate the infallibility of all apostles and all their successors (under certain circumstances).

That is correct. The entire Catholic Church is infallible when joined with the Pope in ecumenical council to proclaim Doctrine which will affect the entire Church.

But we don’t have the Bishops of Los Angeles or Madrid standing up and claiming to make infallible statements, do we?

Jesus only took one of the Bishops aside and gave him the keys that bind and loose. The others must do it in union with the entire Church.

And for a church that is supposed to be based on the “unanimous consent of the Fathers,” the fact that the church fathers were not united on this passage providing a special charism to the bishop of Rome is quite telling.

The unanimous consent of the Fathers is always arrived in ecumenical council.

Where is infallibility in this passage?

In Eph 3:10 the Church is described as teaching the Wisdom of God. Is the Wisdom of God fallible in your opinion?

And if it is there, where does it say that infallibility is limited a la Rome?

The Catholic Church is the only Church being described in Scripture. Therefore, no other group is indicated.

Rome is not consistent, claiming infallibility only on decisions that it currently likes, not past ones such as the crusades.

If Catholics had not waged the Crusades, you would be worshipping Allah five times a day now. But instead of being grateful for the brave Catholics who fought for your religious freedom, you now insult them.

Moreover, there are constant warnings about false teachers in the church

But there are no warnings that the Church teaches falsely. Instead the Bible only says that the Church is the Pillar of Truth (1 Tim 3:15).

and Paul commends us in the book of Acts to note their presence according to what they teach and not whether or not they can claim a lineage of laying on of hands that stretches back to the apostles.

You are mistaken:
2 Timothy 2:2
And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

2 Timothy 3:14
King James Version (KJV)
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

2 Thessalonians 2:15
King James Version (KJV)
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Then, of course, a church’s lampstand can be taken away if it falls into serious error.

An individual church led by an individual Bishop. But not a Church which is united to the Pope.

Of course, your infallible church now says that Protestant denominations are imperfect manifestations of the church and that we’re all basically going to heaven.

That is your spin and error. The Church teaches a truth which you don’t understand. God judges who goes to heaven or hell based upon their faith and works. The Catholic Church offers the best helps to get all men to heaven. But neither the Catholic Church nor any other can get you there if you refuse to do the Commandments of God.

1 Corinthians 4:4
For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

So even by your own standards, I have no good reason to become Roman Catholic because I can be saved outside the church.

Have it your way. But it is evident from your postings that you know about the Catholic Church and have rejected her. Therefore you are rejecting Christ who established her and who gives Himself to us through the Eucharist in the Mass, daily:
Hebrews 10:25-36
King James Version (KJV)
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;

33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.

34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.

35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.

36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

If I can’t get past the Marian dogmas because of ignorance,

God is your judge. Whether it is obstianance or ignorance, He will let you know.

I’m still okay because of my baptism.

Did you remain without sin after your Baptism? How about Confession?

I should become Roman Catholic why?

Because of the Sacraments. Because in the Sacraments the Holy Spirit washes your soul with the grace of God and you partake of the Divine Nature.

My soul is no longer in danger since Vatican II

That is not the teaching of the Church, but your own.

Yes, Jesus established one church, and the divisions are tragic. But papering over them with a paper-thin institutional unity so that even liberals and apostates are not excommunicated is not the answer. When John Kerry and Rick Santorum are both members in good standing of your church, something is seriously, seriously wrong with Rome’s definition of unity

Again, have you not ever read Scripture before in you r life? Or do you simply paper over the Word of God?

Matthew 13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

. When Mother Teresa and pro-abortion nuns are both seen as significant spiritual figures in the Roman Catholic church, something is serious, seriously wrong with Rome’s definition of unity.

That which is wrong is your knowledge and understanding of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. If you understood, you would believe the Teaching of the Church.

Or, if you merely humbled yourself and obeyed the Scripture which says:
Hebrews 13:17
King James Version (KJV)
17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

But it seems obvious that you prefer to change the Word of God than to accept the Teaching of Jesus Christ and live:
2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

The view that all churches sprang from the church of Rome is historically naive and outright false. Even the Eastern Orthodox would deny it.

They can deny the truth all they want. But the truth is true whether anyone believes it or not.

Sincerely,

De Maria

God will make us perfect

RT said:

The perfection God demands does go beyond the written code at least in the sense that the written code does not contain in explicit fashion all that God demands. But even Jesus expected the leaders of his day to know of those deeper demands as good and necessary consequences of what is written.
The apostles did not view the written code as superfluous, as they keep telling us to read it to learn how to follow the Lord.

I see them exhorting us to listen to them, to obey them and to follow good examples in order to follow Christ:
1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

1 Timothy 4:12 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.

1 Peter 5:3 Neither as being lords over God’s heritage, but being examples to the flock.
1 Timothy 6:11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
Hebrews 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

Where do they exhort us to read in order to learn how to follow Christ?

The full writing of the law on the heart is something that we are yet waiting for in the consummation. We experience it in part now by the Spirit, in its fullness later on.

Please provide a Scripture so I know what you are talking about. I don’t see anything about partial writings on our heart.

If love infused in the heart is the perfection that God demands, then Roman Catholicism collapses in on itself.

You’re quick to condemn, aren’t you? Yet the Catholic Church continues to teach the Love of God throughout the world, whether you believe it or not. The Catholic Church is the voice of God in this world.

For you have to keep adding things to it—namely justifingly meritorious good works—to secure your final justification.

In hope that we will be justified. Scripture says:
2 Peter 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
Do you deny the truth of these words?

If the love has to be perfected in such ways, it is not, by its nature, perfect love.

Even Jesus was perfected:
Hebrews 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

The law indeed points to love—perfect love that always operates selflessly, obeying God completely because nothing less than perfect love expressed in the doing of all of God’s commands in every way. None of us does that.

Do not despair. Simply refrain from self-judgment. We are all unprofitable servants:
Luke 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

1 Peter 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

But if you refrain from doing your duty because you despair in the mercy and power of God to make you perfect, then you will be lost.

None of the OT Jews were regenerated

DE MARIA March 29, 2013 at 9:09 am

ER March 24, 2013 at 3:38 pm
Was Abraham regenerated and re-created by the power of the Holy Spirit?

None of the Jews were regenerated. That is why they had to await the coming of Christ in order to receive the promises (Heb 11:39-40).

The Holy Spirit blows where it will

DE MARIA March 28, 2013 at 1:54 pm

Jason,

I agree wholeheartedly. My only question is, “how do you see that agape poured out?”

You said:

….when the source of that agape would be poured out upon the people of God and infused into their hearts (Gal. 4:1-6; Rom. 5:5).

Titus 3:5
King James Version (KJV)
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

My emphasis upon the Sacraments might lead some to believe that I think it is the only way by which God pours grace into the world. But that is far from true. I follow the Catholic Teaching:

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

Therefore the Scripture teaches that the Spirit blows where it will (John 3:8).