I had forgotten that I had said:
Wow! What a gold mine! I get to debunk another article. ....
But I was reading that article again and I was reminded.
Anyway, the article which Russel is talking about is here. I normally put the other person's words in blue and mine in black. But Russell is already using blue for Catholics, so I'll leave his words in black, the Catholic segments in blue and I'll write my comments in Bold.
The Priesthood
“If any one saith, that there is not in the New Testament a visible and external priesthood; or that there is not any power of consecrating and offering the true body and blood of the Lord, and of forgiving and retaining sins; but only an office and bare ministry of preaching the Gospel, or, that those who do not preach are not priests at all; let him be anathema.” (The Catholic Church’s Council of Trent, Session 23, Canon 1)
While many of the world’s religions have an ordained priesthood, the concept of a Christian ministerial priesthood is not found in the New Testament,
While many of the world’s religions have an ordained priesthood, the concept of a Christian ministerial priesthood is not found in the New Testament,
Yes it is.
First, the Priesthood is here explicitly mentioned:
1 Timothy 4:14
Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.
Here it is explicit in the original Greek, which loses something in the translation to English:
hierourgeō
1) to minister in the manner of a priest, minister in priestly service
a) of those who defend the sanctity of the law by undergoing a violent death
b) of the preaching of the gospel
Romans 15:16
King James Version (KJV)
16That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering (hierourgeo) the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
1 Timothy 4:14
Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.
Here it is explicit in the original Greek, which loses something in the translation to English:
hierourgeō
1) to minister in the manner of a priest, minister in priestly service
a) of those who defend the sanctity of the law by undergoing a violent death
b) of the preaching of the gospel
Romans 15:16
King James Version (KJV)
16That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering (hierourgeo) the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
but is something that has evolved over time. There are a number of groups who claim to follow Jesus Christ that maintain a priesthood. For example, the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches, and even some Protestant churches, like Anglican / Episcopalian, and some Lutheran churches. The Mormon Church also has a priesthood. Yet, none of these “priesthoods” are valid (according to the Bible), but we will focus on the most prominent: the Catholic priesthood.
One thing that should stand out in that last paragraph, is that all the ancient Christian faiths have a priesthood. Why? Because they inherited the Tradition from the Apostles. Many centuries later, Protestants came along, separated from the Church and discarded the Traditions and began to reconstruct the faith of Jesus Christ in their own image. One of the Traditions they discarded was the Tradition of Holy Orders, aka, the ministerial Priesthood.
The Catholic Church insists that we must have a distinct, ordained, “hierarchical” priesthood today. But, the truth is, the only types of Christian “priesthood” that we find within the pages of the New Testament are the High Priesthood of Jesus Christ (Hebrews 2:17; 3:1), and the “universal priesthood” of all believers (1 Peter 2:5, 9; Revelation 1:6). While we are able to find Jewish and pagan priests mentioned in the New Testament, we don’t see any Christian “ministerial” priests to mediate between God and man (as we find in the Old Testament).
The Apostle Paul mentions the functions and offices of the New Testament church in chapters 3 and 5 of 1 Timothy, and Titus chapter 1. He also gives specific instructions for ministry, church order, gifts and service in 1 Corinthians chapters 11-14, and in Ephesians chapter 4… and yet, the ministerial office of “priest” is strangely absent. There is not a single mention of a “priesthood” in these contexts. If God had intended a Christianministerial priesthood for today, one would think that such a critical position should be evident in the New Testament. But it isn’t there.
Actually, it is, as I have shown above. The problem is, that Protestants can't recognize the ministerial priesthood in the pages of Scripture, because they are reading Scripture with their presuppositions.
We can see, for instance, the episode of the Apostles eating the corn on the Sabbath.
1At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat. 2But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day. 3But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him; 4How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests? 5Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
6But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple. 7But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. 8For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
Have you ever wondered why the Disciples are guiltless? They worked on the Sabbath day and were guiltless because they were the equivalent of the Levites, the ministerial priests of the Old Testament. The Levites were in the Temple, working on the Sabbath. But there is one greater than the Temple and His ministerial priests are free to work on the Sabbath, because He is Lord of the Sabbath.
But, let’s look at some of the Catholic arguments for the priesthood:
OK.
CATHOLIC CLAIM – IN THE OLD TESTAMENT, THERE WERE THREE TYPES OF PRIESTS: HIGH PRIESTS (LEVITICUS 21:10), MINISTERIAL PRIESTS (EXODUS 29:1), AND A “UNIVERSAL” PRIESTHOOD (EXODUS 19:6). THE BIBLE NEVER SAYS THAT THIS HAS CHANGED, SO THE “THREE-FOLD PRIESTHOOD” IS STILL HERE TODAY.
If I may add, the Bible also says that the Old Covenant is a shadow of the New. Therefore, the New Covenant must be casting a shadow which includes three Priesthoods.
Hebrews 8:5
King James Version (KJV)
We agree that there was a “high priesthood” and a “ministerial priesthood” in the Old Testament. But it is wrong to think that Exodus 19:6 proves that there was a “universal priesthood” in Old Testament times. Let’s look at the context:
Exodus 19:5 - Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
Exodus 19:6 - And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
Yes, God promised Israel that they would be a “kingdom of priests” and a “holy nation.” But, this is a yet UNFULFILLED promise to the Jews. Notice that God’s promise to Israel was CONDITIONAL; that this would happen IF (and ONLY if) they would obey God’s voice and keep His covenant (Exodus 19:5). But they didn’t. Over and over, Israel had broken God’s covenant and disobeyed His commands (e.g., Jeremiah chapter 11, 13, 22, 34, etc.). This continued even until the very end of the Old Testament period, where even the “ministerial” priests had profaned the covenant (Malachi 2:8-10). Even to this day, Israel (as a nation) is disobedient and blinded to the truth (2 Corinthians 3:12-14; Romans 11:25, 31).
Therefore, Israel could not claim that it was a “kingdom of priests” and a “holy nation,” and thus, has not yet become that “universal priesthood.” This will not happen for the Jews, as a nation, until Jesus Christ returns, as Isaiah prophesied (Isaiah 61:6). So, since the “universal priesthood” never happened in the Old Testament, this “three-fold priesthood” concept didn’t exist then, and there is no reason to think that it must be a model for the church today.
One of the problems here, is that Protestants read Scripture differently than do Catholics. Scripture says:
2 Timothy 2:15
King James Version (KJV)
15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
In the OT, the Priest that offered the sacrifice was supposed to eat it:
Leviticus 6:26
King James Version (KJV)
Who eats the Passover lamb?
Exodus 12:5-11
King James Version (KJV)
6And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.
7And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.
8And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.
9Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof.
10And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.
11And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the LORD's passover.
The Ordinary Priesthood of the Jewish nation. Everyone. It is priests who eat the sacrifice and all the Jews were expected to eat the Passover lamb.
CATHOLIC CLAIM – WE KNOW THAT THERE WERE PRIESTS IN THE NEW TESTAMENT BECAUSE THE ENGLISH WORD FOR “PRIEST” IS DERIVED FROM THE GREEK “PRESBUTEROS”, TRANSLATED AS “ELDER” IN MOST ENGLISH BIBLES. SO, “ELDER” ACTUALLY MEANS “PRIEST”.
While it is true that our modern word “priest” is derived from the Greek word “presbuteros”, it does not mean that the two words are the same. Derivatives are not definitions. The modern word “Presbyterian” is ALSO a derivative of “presbuteros”, but I don’t think any Catholic would try to say that the New Testament “elders” were Presbyterians. Anyway, the New Testament ALREADY has a Greek word for priest, “hiereus,” not “presbuteros,” and these two Greek words are never used interchangeably. So, this argument certainly does not prove that biblical “elders” were priests.
But it is strong evidence in that regard however. Although presbyter means "elder", we see that St. Timothy was a presbyter:
1 Timothy 4:14
King James Version (KJV)
14Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.
1 Timothy 4:12
King James Version (KJV)
12Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.
CATHOLIC CLAIM - “HIEREUS” REFERS TO THE PRIESTS OF THE OLD COVENANT. SO, A SEPARATE WORD, “PRESBUTEROS”, IS USED TO REFER TO THE PRIESTS OF THE NEW. THERE IS STILL A DISTINCTIVENESS AND UNIQUENESS TO THE NEW COVENANT PRIESTHOOD THAT WARRANTS THE USE OF A DIFFERENT WORD.
“Hiereus” does indeed refer to the priests of the Old Covenant, but not just to the Old Testament priests. It ALSO refers to the New Testament universal priesthood of believers (Revelation 1:6; 5:10; 20:6). Furthermore, asserting that “presbuteros” is the “new” term for priest is simply begging the question, i.e., just an assumption without proof.
The proof is in the Tradition which is followed, universally, by the ancient Christian religions.
We also believe that the fact that “hiereus” is used to describe priests from both Testaments is further evidence that the priesthood has changed from a “ministerial” form (Old Testament) to a “universal” form (New Testament).
You are simply wrong. The Old Testament is a shadow of the New and designed according to the same heavenly plan. Therefore, the Old and New Testaments have three types of priests. Protestants have dispensed with the ministerial priesthood in contradiction of Scripture.
CATHOLIC CLAIM – YOU MAY ASK, WHY DON’T WE SEE THE WORD “PRIEST” IN THE NEW TESTAMENT? THE CHRISTIANS OF THE FIRST CENTURY WOULD AVOID USING “PRIEST” IN NAMING THE MINISTERIAL OFFICES OF THE CHURCH, BECAUSE IT WAS ALSO THE SAME TERM BEING USED BY MANY JEWISH AND PAGAN PRIESTS. SO, TO AVOID CONFUSION, EARLY CHRISTIANS USED LANGUAGE TO DISTINGUISH THEIR PRIESTS FROM THE OTHERS.
I've never heard any Catholic make this claim.
There were plenty pagan priests in the time of the Old Testament. But it seems that neither the Lord nor the Jews had any problem calling their own ministers “priests” at that time. They didn’t seem to be concerned about any confusion that might arise between the names of the two groups. Furthermore, the term “elder” was kept over from the Old Testament. The New Testament word used for the Jewish elder (“presbuteros”) is exactly the same word used for the Christian elder. If confusing terms were an issue, why didn’t the early Christians avoid the term “elder” altogether? So, this Catholic argument is just too weak to be credible.
I think you made that up. I've never heard any Catholic make that claim.
The simple reason why priest and presbyter are interchangeable is because they mean the same thing. Ruler or Leader of the Church. The Priest is the Pastor of the local Church.
Now, most pagan religions did not speak Hebrew. I repeat, they did not speak Hebrew. Therefore, it would be IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to confuse the Jewish word, "kohen" for "witch doctor".
However, because the Jewish High Priest and the Levitical Priests were members of the Sanhedrin and were also called "elders", the term "elder" became synonymous with "priest".
CATHOLIC CLAIM – THE VERY REASON THAT ENGLISH SPEAKERS REFER TO THE ORDAINED MINISTRY WITH A WORD (PRIEST) THAT IS DERIVED FROM “PRESBUTEROS” IS BECAUSE THESE MINISTERS SERVE THE SAME FUNCTION AS BIBLICAL ELDERS DID.
But one could argue that many of today’s Protestant pastors / ministers ALSO serve the same function as the New Testament “elders” did, because they also preach the gospel and administer communion, baptism, etc. So this claim proves nothing.
In other words, Protestant Pastors function as priests but do not call themselves priests. Therefore, in proving the necessity of the priesthood, they deny it.
You're contradicting yourself.
Another thing… if Catholic priests (especially those of the Latin rite) are supposed to be the same as New Testament “elders,” then why are they not allowed (required?) to be the “husband of [but] one wife” (Titus 1:6)? We know that there are exceptions in the Catholic Church, but Paul is speaking of the NORM for elders, here. And the norm is to be married. (We are not debating the virtues of celibacy, but our point is simply that, according to Titus, the great majority of Roman Catholic priests cannot be biblical elders). So, it can’t be said that priests and elders are one and the same.
Sure it can. Your simple denial does not prove anything.
First, the custom in the Roman rite of the Catholic Church is to have a celibate priesthood. The Eastern rite of the Catholic Church still permits married priests.
Second, the custom in the Roman rite is a discipline only. The Pope or the Magisterium united with the Pope can decide at anytime to rescind the discipline.
Third, but they probably won't, because Jesus wasn't married and because St. Paul said:
1 Corinthians 7:8
King James Version (KJV)
8I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them if they abide even as I.
And again:
1 Corinthians 7:32
King James Version (KJV)
Therefore, it is very unlikely that the Catholic Church will ever rescind that discipline.
CATHOLIC CLAIM – IN ROMANS 15:15-16, PAUL CALLS HIMSELF A PRIEST WHEN HE REFERS TO HIS MINISTRY AS A “PRIESTLY SERVICE” (GREEK, “HIEROURGOUNTA”).
First of all, Paul never uses the word “priest” to describe his own office, but considers himself an “apostle.”
Secondly, in NONE of his epistles does he call any leader in the church a “priest,” when he had ample opportunity to do so.
Thirdly, this “priestly service” is simply describing the work of spreading the gospel, which ALL Christians are commissioned to do.
That isn't true. Again, because you have discarded the Traditions, you don't recognize a priestly service when you see it. Here is St. Paul describing his priestly service:
1 Corinthians 10:16
King James Version (KJV)
16The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
That is the Sacrifice of the Mass which you call "communion" and which you claim even your "Pastors" also "administer". If that is true, then they are offering up the Christian Passover:
1 Corinthians 5:7
King James Version (KJV)
CATHOLIC CLAIM – BUT IF WE DON’T HAVE ANY PRIESTS TODAY, HOW CAN WE OBTAIN THE SACRAMENTS, OR PRESENT SACRIFICES TO THE LORD, LIKE THE SACRIFICE OF THE MASS?
Ok, first, just because there are no ministerial priests, this doesn’t mean that there are no church leaders to minister to the people.
You're contradicting yourself again. Christ's priests are the ministers to the people. You are rejecting the priesthood and at the same time proving its necessity.
Furthermore, without getting into the concept of “sacraments,” and any role they might play, the point still remains that ministerial priests are NOT found in the New Testament, regardless of whether someone believes they should be there.
Let me put it this way. Ministerial priests are found in the New Testament, regardless of whether someone believes they should not be there.
And finally, the only sacrifices that need to be offered today are spiritual sacrifices (1 Peter 2:5), our praise(Hebrews 13:15), our bodies (Romans 12:1), our finances (Philippians 4:18), etc. Concerning the Sacrifice of the Mass, see our two-part article on the Eucharist, elsewhere on this blog.
I sure will. Thanks for the invite.
Note that the author of the book of Hebrews takes great pains to distinguish the difference between the Old Covenant (types and shadows) and the New (and better) Covenant. The main function of a ministerial priest of the Old Testament was to offer sacrifices (repeatedly) to God in order to atone for sin. But Hebrews 10:10-12, 18 tells us that the price has now been paid, and there is “NO MORE offering [sacrifice] for sin.” Therefore, no more atoning sacrifices are needed. Jesus Christ has paid the full penalty on the cross of Calvary. We now have a perfect atonement to embrace, once for all (Hebrews 9:12, 28; 10:10). No ministerial priests are needed now to offer sacrifice to God. Their “job” is cancelled out. This was demonstrated by God’s tearing of the veil in the temple (Matthew 27:51). It means all believers now have direct access to God without “ministerial” priests. Jesus Christ is the FULFILLMENT of the Old Testament type of priesthood and its sacrifices.
The problem with that summary is that you show that you don't understand the nature of Old Testament Sacrifice. Especially of the Sacrifice known as the Passover.
Yes, the Old Testament is a shadow of the more perfect New Testament. That just proves that the New Testament cast a shadow which included a ministerial priesthood.
And the other sacrifices all disappeared. Leaving only the perfect Sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Did you notice that the Passover sacrifice required that the lamb be eaten. Perhaps now you will understand why Jesus said:
John 6:53
King James Version (KJV)
Yeah, we need Priests to administer the Sacrifice.
CONCLUSION
We are not saying that there are no leaders in the church today, just that there are no “ordained / ministerial” priests. As important as the priesthood is to Catholics, it is hard to ignore the fact that this priesthood is never mentioned in Paul’s writings. To emphasize the point once more, it is not as though it is absent from only a tiny letter in the Bible, like Philemon or 3 John, but it is absent from the WHOLE New Testament. This is too much of a glaring omission to ignore.
There is a reason why Scripture says:
2 Thessalonians 2:15
King James Version (KJV)
15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
Jesus didn't write a word of Scripture. He passed down Traditions. Amongst those, is the ministerial priesthood. If you held the Traditions, you could recognize the priesthood described in the New Testament. Since you don't, you can't.
The life, the very core, of a priestly system is the sacrifice. The sacrifice is the whole focus of the priesthood.
The Holy Eucharist is described as the SOURCE AND SUMMIT of our faith.
If you remove the core of any such system, you take away the life and purpose of that system. If there is no more sacrifice, there is no more system. Its purpose has been served. This is the Achilles’ heel of the Catholic priesthood. Not only is the priesthood NOT in the New Testament, but it also contradicts the New Testament, since Hebrews tells us that there is NO MORE SACRIFICE for sin (Hebrews 10:18).
Let's divide the word rightly. Here is the verse which he referenced:
Hebrews 10:18
King James Version (KJV)
18Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
A remission of what? Sin.
Is all sin remitted? Scripture says:
1 John 1:8
King James Version (KJV)
8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
So then, there is still an offering for sin. And if we read a bit further:
Hebrews 10:20
King James Version (KJV)
What Russell doesn't realize is the Sacramental language which is here depicted. Let's read 19 and 20 together:
Hebrews 10:19-20
King James Version (KJV)
19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Folks, St. Paul is talking about the Holy Eucharist. He does it again in Heb 10:29.
Heb 10:22 is a description of Baptism.
According to its Catechism, the Catholic Church makes some very special claims about its priests. For example, they are supposedly able to absolve (forgive) a man’s sins (CCC #1495); they have “a ‘sacred power’ which is none other than that of Christ” (CCC #1551); they “possess the authority to act in the power and place of the Person of Christ, Himself” (CCC #1548); and the priest “divinizes” and he “is divinized” (CCC #1589), i.e., he makes divine and is made divine…
Once again, we see the Catholic Church making some extraordinary claims about itself, and then it asserts that these claims have (at least some) biblical support. But upon examination, these claims are found to be just that… mere claims, and not truth; they are deceptive claims that actually deny biblical truth.
There's only one way to find out. Let us see whether you have read those paragraphs correctly and how they stand up to Scripture:
1495 Only priests who have received the faculty of absolving from the authority of the Church can forgive sins in the name of Christ.
John 20:23
King James Version (KJV)
23Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
Right on the money.
1551 This priesthood is ministerial. "That office . . . which the Lord committed to the pastors of his people, is in the strict sense of the term a service." It is entirely related to Christ and to men. It depends entirely on Christ and on his unique priesthood; it has been instituted for the good of men and the communion of the Church. The sacrament of Holy Orders communicates a "sacred power" which is none other than that of Christ. The exercise of this authority must therefore be measured against the model of Christ, who by love made himself the least and the servant of all. "The Lord said clearly that concern for his flock was proof of love for him."
Scripture says:
Mark 10:41-45
King James Version (KJV)
41And when the ten heard it, they began to be much displeased with James and John.
42But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
43But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:
44And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.
45For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
- It is the same priest, Christ Jesus, whose sacred person his minister truly represents. Now the minister, by reason of the sacerdotal consecration which he has received, is truly made like to the high priest and possesses the authority to act in the power and place of the person of Christ himself (virtute ac persona ipsius Christi).Christ is the source of all priesthood: the priest of the old law was a figure of Christ, and the priest of the new law acts in the person of Christ.
2 Corinthians 5:20
King James Version (KJV)
20Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
Still on the money.
- We must begin by purifying ourselves before purifying others; we must be instructed to be able to instruct, become light to illuminate, draw close to God to bring him close to others, be sanctified to sanctify, lead by the hand and counsel prudently. I know whose ministers we are, where we find ourselves and to where we strive. I know God's greatness and man's weakness, but also his potential. [Who then is the priest? He is] the defender of truth, who stands with angels, gives glory with archangels, causes sacrifices to rise to the altar on high, shares Christ's priesthood, refashions creation, restores it in God's image, recreates it for the world on high and, even greater, is divinized and divinizes. And the holy Cure of Ars: "The priest continues the work of redemption on earth. . . . If we really understood the priest on earth, we would die not of fright but of love. . . . The Priesthood is the love of the heart of Jesus."
Scripture says:
Galatians 4:19
King James Version (KJV)
19My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
2 Peter 1:4
King James Version (KJV)
4Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
So, this creates some serious implications for the Catholic faithful, and should be disturbing to those Catholics who would take an honest look at the evidence presented. We have to ask ourselves: Are we going to believe the Catholic hierarchy, or are we going to believe God’s infallible Scripture?
We believe both. Whom we don't believe are Protestants. What we don't believe are Protestant changes to the Word of God.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Hi De Maria,
ReplyDelete(Part 1)
Please forgive the delay. I was having trouble posting on your blog.
You said that the priesthood was “explicitly” mentioned in Scripture, specifically in 1 Timothy 4:14:
“Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.”
I’m assuming, of course, that you are speaking of the word “presbytery.” But this simply means “a body of elders,” according to Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, and “the order of elders,” in Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance. Nothing whatsoever about a priesthood – you would have to READ THAT INTO the context. The New Testament does indeed have several words for “priesthood” in the Greek, like “hierateia” (Hebrews 7:5), “hierateuma” (1 Peter 2:5, 9), and “hierosune” (Hebrews 7:11-12, 14, 24). These are the only words translated as “priesthood” in the KJV, and “presbytery” or “elder” is not in any of these contexts. Our English word “priest” is not a definition of, but merely a derivative of, “presbuteros” (closely related to “presbytery”), which was explained in my article. So, a priesthood is not even implicitly in the context of 1Timothy 4, much less explicitly.
You also used Romans 16:15 as another “explicit” example:
“That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering [Greek, “hierourgeo”] the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.”
“Hierourgeo” is in the family of Greek words having to do with the priesthood, but this context is simply speaking of ministering the gospel of Jesus Christ, not about some special class of ministers.
(Part 2)
ReplyDeleteI had mentioned that Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and some Protestant churches all had a priesthood, and you said:
“One thing that should stand out in that last paragraph, is that all the ancient Christian faiths have a priesthood. Why? Because they inherited the Tradition from the Apostles...”
First of all, we see none of the apostles functioning specifically as a Catholic priest, an Orthodox priest, or as any kind of priest would.
Second, just because the concept of a “ministerial priesthood” existed early on does not prove that it was from the apostles.
Note that apostasy (i.e., a falling away from the truth), in one form or another, has entered the church from the EARLIEST times. Although not a complete apostasy, it was nevertheless present in different degrees and in different places early on, EVEN IN THE DAYS OF THE APOSTLES. Note what the Apostle Paul said to the Ephesian elders in Acts 20:
28) Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29) For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in AMONG YOU, not sparing the flock.
30) Also OF YOUR OWN SELVES shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Apostasy and false teaching was the reason that some of the epistles in the New Testament were written. Paul dealt with the errors of the Judaizers in the early church in his epistle to the Galatians, and he dealt with Gnosticism in his epistle to the Colossians. The Apostle John also had to deal with the false teachings of the Gnostics in the epistle of I John. Furthermore, the Lord Jesus pointed out, through John, the false teachings within two of the seven churches of Asia that needed to be dealt with. (Revelation 2:14-15, 20)
So, early teachings are not necessarily apostolic teachings, nor does it necessarily mean that they were even true.
(Part 3)
ReplyDeleteYou brought up the incident of the apostles eating from the grain fields on the Sabbath (Matthew 12:1-8), and said:
“Have you ever wondered why the Disciples are guiltless? They worked on the Sabbath day and were guiltless because they were the equivalent of the Levites, the ministerial priests of the Old Testament. The Levites were in the Temple, working on the Sabbath. But there is one greater than the Temple and His ministerial priests are free to work on the Sabbath, because He is Lord of the Sabbath.”
De Maria, Jesus gives us no hint that the apostles were “equivalent to the Levites,” having some kind of “ministerial priesthood.” His purpose in this context was not to demonstrate anything of the sort. He was showing that He is Lord of the Sabbath and that some things can be done on the Sabbath because they are just NECESSARY to do. Necessity is the common factor between the apostles “harvesting” in the fields and the Levites working in the temple. He brings up the example of David and his men (v. 3-4), who ate the showbread that was only lawful for the priests to eat. Was Jesus’ point here to prove that David and his men were “priests” also? Of course not, but He was simply pointing out that the NEED was greater than the letter of the law. He was countering the extreme legalism of the Pharisees:
“And He said unto them, ‘What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the Sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the Sabbath days.’” (Matthew 12:11-12)
Note also the parallel passage in Luke:
“And the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because that Jesus had healed on the Sabbath day, and said unto the people, ‘There are six days in which men ought to work: in them therefore come and be healed, and not on the Sabbath day.’ The Lord then answered him, and said, ‘Thou hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the Sabbath loose his ox and his ass from the stall, and lead him away to watering?’” (Luke 13:14-15)
These verses show that there were others, not just priests, who were equally guiltless for working on the Sabbath because they did something that was needed. Gleaning grain from the fields or doing good on the Sabbath was not just for the spiritual elite (e.g., Levites, Pharisees, apostles, etc.). So, none of this proves a “ministerial priesthood,” as you were implying.
(Part 4)
ReplyDeleteYou said:
“If I may add, the Bible also says that the Old Covenant is a shadow of the New. Therefore, the New Covenant must be casting a shadow which includes three Priesthoods.”
This is absolutely false in light of the whole book of Hebrews, especially verses like 10:18:
“Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.”
The debt is paid… there is NO MORE offering / sacrifice that can pay for, or atone for, sin. The payment for sin is finished. No other sacrifice will (or could) do anything toward paying for anyone’s sins. Jesus Himself offered the perfect and ultimate sacrifice once for all time. No more offering, no more need for a sacrifice, no more “ministerial” priesthood.
You said that only the priests had the right to eat of the sacrifices. And since the Jews all ate the Passover lamb, that made them part of an Old Testament “universal priesthood.”
But it wasn’t just priests who ate of the sacrifices in the Old Testament. According to JewishEncyclopedia.com under the topic “Sacrifice”:
“In private thank-offerings this was burned on the altar (ib. iii. 3-5, 9-11, 14-16; vii. 31), the right shoulder was given to the priest (ib. vii. 31-34, x. 14-15), the breast to the Aaronites (ib. vii. 31-34), AND THE REMAINDER WAS LEFT TO THE OFFERING ISRAELITE. The priests might eat their portions with their families in any "clean" place (ib. x. 14). The offering Israelite in this case had to eat his share within a fixed and limited time (ib. vii. 15-18, xix. 5-8), with his family and such guests as Levites and strangers, and always at the town where the sanctuary was (for penalty and other conditions see ib. vii. 19-21; Deut. xii. 6, 7, 11, 12; I Sam. ix. 12, 13, 19).” (Emphasis added)
So your premise is wrong. It was not just the priests who ate the sacrifices. You can try to prove the priesthood on other grounds, but the Passover doesn’t help your case. Sharing in the Passover ritual did not make the Israelites priests any more than sharing in the other sacrifices. Anyway, the Bible never says that we are priests because of what we EAT. We are priests today because of our right standing (through faith) with the High Priest, Jesus Christ, and because we minister His gospel.
(Part 5)
ReplyDeleteFurthermore, did God LIE when He made this promise (of a universal priesthood) with the condition that they obey Him in Exodus 19:5-6? Did the conditions NOT really apply? Is God wishy-washy? Apparently He is, if the disobedient Jews were still considered “priests” EVEN THOUGH they didn’t hold up their end of the covenant. Does anyone think that even though God said to believe in Him to be saved, but yet if they don’t, that they will still make it to Heaven on Judgment Day? If that’s the case, His covenant and its condition(s) would be meaningless.
Once again, the promise (Exodus 19:5-6) was conditional, and the Jews (as a nation) in the Old Testament did NOT meet the conditions.
You said that Timothy was an “elder,” yet he was a youth, therefore, “elder” must mean something else, namely “priest.” But this logic doesn’t necessarily follow. It is true that “elder” doesn’t always mean “old,” but that doesn’t demand that it means “priest,” either. An honest reading of the book of Hebrews clears up much misunderstanding on whether there is a ministerial priesthood today.
I mentioned that one Catholic argument for the word “priest” not being in the New Testament was because the early church didn’t want to cause confusion. And you said:
“I think you made that up. I’ve never heard any Catholic make that claim.”
The very popular Catholic speaker and apologist Tim Staples, Director of Apologetics of “Catholic Answers,” makes the claim here:
http://thecatholicconvert.webs.com/staplesreformedthinking.html
And Catholic apologist Tim Troutman, Editor in Chief of “Called to Communion,” uses the same basic argument here:
http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2010/05/holy-orders-and-the-priesthood/
(Part 6)
ReplyDeleteI had said:
“But one could argue that many of today’s Protestant pastors / ministers ALSO serve the same function as the New Testament “elders” did, because they also preach the gospel and administer communion, baptism, etc. So this claim proves nothing.”
And you answered:
“In other words, Protestant Pastors function as priests but do not call themselves priests. Therefore, in proving the necessity of the priesthood, they deny it…You're contradicting yourself.”
I never said (or implied) that Protestant pastors function as ministerial “priests.” I said that they function as New Testament elders. You keep saying that they are the same thing, and continue to speak of the “necessity” of priests in the New Testament, but you keep failing to present any convincing biblical evidence.
I had pointed out that Hebrews 10:18 says that there is no more offering for sin, and you basically said that since we still have sin in our lives, then there must still be an offering for sin.
Yes, we all still have sin in our lives, but Catholics seem to miss the whole point of Hebrews 10 (and the great majority of the book of Hebrews):
God is giving us, in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, a new and better (living) way (10:20); a single sacrifice given ONCE FOR ALL (10:10, 12, 14) as opposed to repeated and ineffective sacrifices (10:11); He gives us a sacrifice that can make us PERFECT in righteousness (10:1, 14); He takes away a system of repeated sacrifices in order to establish a second system with only ONE single sacrifice / offering (10:9). This one-time offering still exists, BUT IT CAN NEVER BE “OFFERED” AGAIN as a sin offering, as Catholics claim to do in the Eucharist.
De Maria, even if it could be proven that there WAS a universal priesthood in the Old Testament (and I do not concede that), the book of Hebrews utterly destroys the idea that there is a ministerial priesthood for the church today.
(Part 7)
ReplyDeleteWhen Jesus uttered those immortal words on the cross, “It is finished,” it is no coincidence that the veil of the holy of holies tore from top to bottom (Matthew 27:51). The Father was making a monumental statement: Everyone who trusts in Jesus’ death and suffering on the cross now has access to the throne room of God. There is no more offering / sacrifice for sin. The debt for sin is fully paid. There is no more need for a ministerial priesthood because there are no more atoning sacrifices to offer… because we now have the perfect One.
God then gave the Jews approximately forty years to recognize this, but they continued to sacrifice in the temple. In 70 A.D., that great temple was totally destroyed. Again, God was making a statement that would echo throughout eternity: “I told you, NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SIN!”
Russell said...
ReplyDeleteHi De Maria,
Hi Russell,
(Part 1) Please forgive the delay. I was having trouble posting on your blog.
What was the problem, if I may ask? You said that the priesthood was “explicitly” mentioned in Scripture, specifically in 1 Timothy 4:14: “Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.” I’m assuming, of course, that you are speaking of the word “presbytery.” But this simply means “a body of elders,” according to Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, and “the order of elders,” in Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance. Nothing whatsoever about a priesthood – you would have to READ THAT INTO the context.
We have differing contexts, you and I.
113 2. Read the Scripture within "the living Tradition of the whole Church". According to a saying of the Fathers, Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church's heart rather than in documents and records, for the Church carries in her Tradition the living memorial of God's Word, and it is the Holy Spirit who gives her the spiritual interpretation of the Scripture (". . . according to the spiritual meaning which the Spirit grants to the Church").
Do you see the difference? While Protestants "discover" the meaning of the Scripture EVERYTIME they read it. Catholics realize that Christ first established the Traditions from which the New Testament was written. Therefore, we know what "presbytery" meant to the Church and the Apostles when they wrote it in Scripture.
The New Testament does indeed have several words for “priesthood” in the Greek, like “hierateia” (Hebrews 7:5), “hierateuma” (1 Peter 2:5, 9), and “hierosune” (Hebrews 7:11-12, 14, 24). These are the only words translated as “priesthood” in the KJV, and “presbytery” or “elder” is not in any of these contexts.
Sure it is. Elder simply refers to the "elder priest." Elders, in the Old Testament, were generally the Sanhedrin, which essentially were from the priestly caste.
Our English word “priest” is not a definition of, but merely a derivative of, “presbuteros” (closely related to “presbytery”), which was explained in my article. So, a priesthood is not even implicitly in the context of 1Timothy 4, much less explicitly.
If we look at the Greek religions today which have "priests", they use the same word, "presbyters" to refer to them. You also used Romans 16:15 as another “explicit” example: “That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering [Greek, “hierourgeo”] the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.” “Hierourgeo” is in the family of Greek words having to do with the priesthood, but this context is simply speaking of ministering the gospel of Jesus Christ, not about some special class of ministers.
It is speaking about what he does. How he describes his ministry. He describes his work as priestly.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Sorry about the paragraphs running together like that. Even after I fixed them by adding spaces, they persisted.
ReplyDeleteSincerely,
De Maria
Hello De Maria,
ReplyDeleteThe problem I was having has something to do with posting on a blog with embedded text. There seems to be some type of problem with authentication, layered security, and third party cookies. I know very little about all this, but I also found that there were many other bloggers who were having similar problems recently on many blogs.
Bloggers are unable to post because they are getting trapped in a “login loop.” I was able to post (at least temporarily) by following the instructions here:
http://blogging.nitecruzr.net/2011/07/frustration-of-bloggers-caught-in-login.html
Hope this helps others who may be having similar problems.
Russell said...
ReplyDelete(Part 2) I had mentioned that Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and some Protestant churches all had a priesthood, and you said: “One thing that should stand out in that last paragraph, is that all the ancient Christian faiths have a priesthood. Why? Because they inherited the Tradition from the Apostles...” First of all, we see none of the apostles functioning specifically as a Catholic priest, an Orthodox priest, or as any kind of priest would.
You don't. But we do. We recognize the references to the Mass. We recognize the references to the Sacraments.
Second, just because the concept of a “ministerial priesthood” existed early on does not prove that it was from the apostles.
It lends strong credence to that Tradition however. It certainly doesn't lend any credence to the idea that it wasn't from the Apostles.
Note that apostasy (i.e., a falling away from the truth), in one form or another, has entered the church from the EARLIEST times. Although not a complete apostasy, it was nevertheless present in different degrees and in different places early on, EVEN IN THE DAYS OF THE APOSTLES. Note what the Apostle Paul said to the Ephesian elders in Acts 20: 28) Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
That is a reference to the Priesthood. The Ministerial Priests feed us the Bread of Life.
29) For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in AMONG YOU, not sparing the flock. 30) Also OF YOUR OWN SELVES shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Apostasy and false teaching was the reason that some of the epistles in the New Testament were written. Paul dealt with the errors of the Judaizers in the early church in his epistle to the Galatians, and he dealt with Gnosticism in his epistle to the Colossians. The Apostle John also had to deal with the false teachings of the Gnostics in the epistle of I John. Furthermore, the Lord Jesus pointed out, through John, the false teachings within two of the seven churches of Asia that needed to be dealt with. (Revelation 2:14-15, 20)
I agree. So? Are you somehow insinuating that the entire Church fell into apostasy? Then what kind of faith do you have in Christ Jesus who said:
Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
So, early teachings are not necessarily apostolic teachings, nor does it necessarily mean that they were even true.
1. Late teachings such as Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide certainly aren't.
2. Early teachings are much more likely to be from the Apostles.
3. The Church, which is anointed with infallibility in Scripture (1 Tim 3:15), weeded out all the heresies early on.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Russell said...
ReplyDelete(Part 3) You brought up the incident of the apostles eating from the grain fields on the Sabbath (Matthew 12:1-8), and said: “Have you ever wondered why the Disciples are guiltless? They worked on the Sabbath day and were guiltless because they were the equivalent of the Levites, the ministerial priests of the Old Testament. The Levites were in the Temple, working on the Sabbath. But there is one greater than the Temple and His ministerial priests are free to work on the Sabbath, because He is Lord of the Sabbath.” De Maria, Jesus gives us no hint that the apostles were “equivalent to the Levites,” having some kind of “ministerial priesthood.”
I guess we disagree. Because that is precisely the point of the story. Jesus told the Jews that He is God and the Disciples His ministerial Priests.
His purpose in this context was not to demonstrate anything of the sort. He was showing that He is Lord of the Sabbath
Agreed.
and that some things can be done on the Sabbath because they are just NECESSARY to do.
You are focusing on David. Jesus did not say that David was guiltless:
3But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
4How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
5Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
David profaned the Sabbath. The priests did not.
Necessity is the common factor between the apostles “harvesting” in the fields and the Levites working in the temple.
Nope.
He brings up the example of David and his men (v. 3-4), who ate the showbread that was only lawful for the priests to eat. Was Jesus’ point here to prove that David and his men were “priests” also? Of course not, but He was simply pointing out that the NEED was greater than the letter of the law. He was countering the extreme legalism of the Pharisees:
No. Jesus was pointing to HIS OWN DIVINITY. Jesus was telling the Pharisees that the Disciples were blameless because they are His Priests and He is God.
“And He said unto them, ‘What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the Sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the Sabbath days.’” (Matthew 12:11-12)
This is a very different context. Jesus Christ here answers a question about what is lawful on the Sabbath day.
Note also the parallel passage in Luke: “And the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because that Jesus had healed on the Sabbath day, and said unto the people, ‘There are six days in which men ought to work: in them therefore come and be healed, and not on the Sabbath day.’ The Lord then answered him, and said, ‘Thou hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the Sabbath loose his ox and his ass from the stall, and lead him away to watering?’” (Luke 13:14-15)
Look at the context. This is parallel to the lesson on healing. NOT about the Disciples eating corn on the Sabbath.
These verses show that there were others, not just priests, who were equally guiltless for working on the Sabbath because they did something that was needed. Gleaning grain from the fields or doing good on the Sabbath was not just for the spiritual elite (e.g., Levites, Pharisees, apostles, etc.). So, none of this proves a “ministerial priesthood,” as you were implying.
Read it more carefully. There was no need for Jesus to mention His Lordship of the Sabbath if this were about doing good on the Sabbath.
The relationship between the Disciples and Jesus was being directly compared to the relationship between the Levites and God. Jesus was making an explicit statement about His Divinity.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Russell said...
ReplyDelete(Part 4) You said: “If I may add, the Bible also says that the Old Covenant is a shadow of the New. Therefore, the New Covenant must be casting a shadow which includes three Priesthoods.” This is absolutely false in light of the whole book of Hebrews, especially verses like 10:18: “Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.”
You've misunderstood that verse, because you've misunderstood the context. Look at verse 10:
10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
That means that the body of Christ is offered for EVERYONE. That includes those of us who accept His PASCHAL sacrifice today. What are you supposed to do with the Passover Lamb? EAT IT. Continue reading in Heb 10. You'll see this:
8Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Jesus Christ did away with the offering of animal sacrifices and established His own. Keep on reading:
24And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Do you see the "no more sacrifice for sins". What is this "sin willfully"?
27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
This is why it is a MORTAL SIN to miss the Mass. You sin willfully when you say, "Oh honey, I want to watch football this Sunday." The Body of Christ which He sacrificed for you and the Blood of Christ which He shed for you is much more valuable than even the Super Bowl!
Anyone who willfully refused to celebrate the Passover was stoned to death. Anyone who willfully refuses to attend the Mass is dead in his sins. Oh and ministerial priests are necessary for the celebration of the Mass.
This should be another VIVID example of how differently we, Catholics, read the Scriptures.
The debt is paid… there is NO MORE offering / sacrifice that can pay for, or atone for, sin.
True enough, Christ paid for our sins on the Cross. But only those who eat His Flesh and drink His Blood as He commanded, will apply the grace of His death to their souls:
John 6:54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
The payment for sin is finished.
The Eucharist is the Christian Passover. In order to participate in the grace of the Sacrifice of Calvary, in order to apply it to your life, you must eat of the Lamb. Otherwise, you have trodden underfoot the Son of God and counted the blood of the Covenant an unholy thing.
No other sacrifice will (or could) do anything toward paying for anyone’s sins. Jesus Himself offered the perfect and ultimate sacrifice once for all time. No more offering, no more need for a sacrifice, no more “ministerial” priesthood.
The Eucharist is the self same Sacrifice of Christ in Calvary. And He empowered His Ministerial Priests to offer that one Sacrifice to all.
Sincerely,
De Maria
(Part 4 Second half)
ReplyDeleteRussell said: You said that only the priests had the right to eat of the sacrifices. And since the Jews all ate the Passover lamb, that made them part of an Old Testament “universal priesthood.” But it wasn’t just priests who ate of the sacrifices in the Old Testament. According to JewishEncyclopedia.com under the topic “Sacrifice”: “In private thank-offerings this was burned on the altar (ib. iii. 3-5, 9-11, 14-16; vii. 31), the right shoulder was given to the priest (ib. vii. 31-34, x. 14-15), the breast to the Aaronites (ib. vii. 31-34), AND THE REMAINDER WAS LEFT TO THE OFFERING ISRAELITE. The priests might eat their portions with their families in any "clean" place (ib. x. 14). The offering Israelite in this case had to eat his share within a fixed and limited time (ib. vii. 15-18, xix. 5-8), with his family and such guests as Levites and strangers, and always at the town where the sanctuary was (for penalty and other conditions see ib. vii. 19-21; Deut. xii. 6, 7, 11, 12; I Sam. ix. 12, 13, 19).” (Emphasis added) So your premise is wrong. It was not just the priests who ate the sacrifices. You can try to prove the priesthood on other grounds, but the Passover doesn’t help your case.
I'll step back on that one for now. But, since you used the Jewish Enclypodia as a resource, I thought I might take advantage of that situation:
CHOSEN PEOPLE.
Name for the Jewish people expressive of the idea of their having been chosen by God to fulfil the mission of proclaiming His truth among all the nations. This choice does not imply a superior claim, but a superior duty and responsibility on the part of the Jewish people, ….That Israel's character as the chosen people is conditioned by obedience to God's commandments is stated in the very words of the Sinai covenant: "Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people; for all the earth is mine: and ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation" (Ex. xix. 5, 6). ….
CHOSEN PEOPLE
"Reformed Judaism beholds in the cessation of the sacrificial service the termination of a special nationality and the scattering of the Jews among all nations the fundamental conditions for the fulfilment of their mission among mankind. Only after the destruction of Jerusalem was it possible for Israel to become a kingdom of priests and a holy nation; a conception which even in the Talmud is intimated in the saying, 'On the day of the destruction of the Temple the Messiah was born'"
Ab Ninth Day of
As you can see, the Jews also read Scripture differently than do you. They also retained their traditions and it is their traditions which give them the proper context within which to understand the written Word.
Sharing in the Passover ritual did not make the Israelites priests any more than sharing in the other sacrifices. Anyway, the Bible never says that we are priests because of what we EAT. We are priests today because of our right standing (through faith) with the High Priest, Jesus Christ, and because we minister His gospel.
And the Ministerial Priests are our elder Priests because they feed the Flock the Bread of Life which Jesus gave, His Flesh for the life of the world.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Concerning the Universal priesthood of the Jews and the Passover, please read this portion of the Google book:
ReplyDeleteTreatise on the Passover... Page 95, verse 18.
And this one:
Proleptic priests.... beginning with the section entitled, "universal priesthood and spiritual sacrifices" page 68.
Russell said...
ReplyDelete(Part 5)
Furthermore, did God LIE when He made this promise (of a universal priesthood) with the condition that they obey Him in Exodus 19:5-6? Did the conditions NOT really apply? Is God wishy-washy? Apparently He is, if the disobedient Jews were still considered “priests” EVEN THOUGH they didn’t hold up their end of the covenant.
First, God's mercy is beyond compare:
Isaiah 55:8-10
8For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD 9For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. 10For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
I don't pretend to judge God.
Second, there is such a thing as disobedient priests. Just because they are disobedient does not mean they are no longer priests.
Third, you have misunderstood the verse. God offered the Jews the universal priesthood and gave them the conditions. They accepted. Read it:
Exodus 19:
5Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
That's the offer.
7And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.
8And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do.
And that is the accepting of the offer of the universal priesthood by the Jews.
And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.
9And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the LORD.
10And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes,
And Moses told God of their acceptance and God in turn accepted their word and sanctified them through Moses.
Does anyone think that even though God said to believe in Him to be saved, but yet if they don’t, that they will still make it to Heaven on Judgment Day? If that’s the case, His covenant and its condition(s) would be meaningless.
Protestants claim that we don't have to do good or keep the Commandments to be saved, yet you believe them? Does that count?
Sincerely,
De Maria
(Part 5, 2nd half)
ReplyDeleteRussell said:
Once again, the promise (Exodus 19:5-6) was conditional, and the Jews (as a nation) in the Old Testament did NOT meet the conditions.
Whether they did or did not is God's to judge. However, they accepted the offer which God made them through Moses to become His Priests. God had already dignified them by letting participate as a nation of priests in the Passover.
You said that Timothy was an “elder,” yet he was a youth, therefore, “elder” must mean something else, namely “priest.” But this logic doesn’t necessarily follow. It is true that “elder” doesn’t always mean “old,”
Great. You confirmed one part of my logic.
but that doesn’t demand that it means “priest,” either.
The priest part is inferred. If I say my "eldest" is 25. You know that I mean my "eldest" child. Since we are all priests, we know that "elder" is referring to the priest in authority.
An honest reading of the book of Hebrews clears up much misunderstanding on whether there is a ministerial priesthood today.
I agree. But the reading needs to be with an understanding of the people who wrote the book. Not with the understanding of a person born 2000 years separated from the events.
I mentioned that one Catholic argument for the word “priest” not being in the New Testament was because the early church didn’t want to cause confusion. And you said:
“I think you made that up. I’ve never heard any Catholic make that claim.”
The very popular Catholic speaker and apologist Tim Staples, Director of Apologetics of “Catholic Answers,” makes the claim here:
http://thecatholicconvert.webs.com/staplesreformedthinking.html
1. Ugh. That's an utterly confusing apologetic. He lost me in the first few sentences.
2. None the less, I didn't see the argument presented as you claim.
3. Perhaps you can point it out.
And Catholic apologist Tim Troutman, Editor in Chief of “Called to Communion,” uses the same basic argument here:
http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2010/05/holy-orders-and-the-priesthood/
He says, and I quote, "The Christian word ‘priest,’ to which we shall refer repeatedly, is potentially a source of much confusion and debate." Which is true. We are currently debating the meaning of this word because , In my opinion, you are confused on the matter. ;) However, he does not use it as an argument as you imply.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Russell said...
ReplyDelete(Part 6) I had said: “But one could argue that many of today’s Protestant pastors / ministers ALSO serve the same function as the New Testament “elders” did, because they also preach the gospel and administer communion, baptism, etc. So this claim proves nothing.” And you answered: “In other words, Protestant Pastors function as priests but do not call themselves priests. Therefore, in proving the necessity of the priesthood, they deny it…You're contradicting yourself.” I never said (or implied) that Protestant pastors function as ministerial “priests.” I said that they function as New Testament elders. You keep saying that they are the same thing, and continue to speak of the “necessity” of priests in the New Testament, but you keep failing to present any convincing biblical evidence.
Well Russell, if I were in your shoes, I would be utterly convinced by my brilliant argumentation and biblical evidence. However, since you aren't, I'll have to satisfy myself with the possibility that someone else might read this who will so be. I had pointed out that Hebrews 10:18 says that there is no more offering for sin, and you basically said that since we still have sin in our lives, then there must still be an offering for sin. Yes, we all still have sin in our lives, but Catholics seem to miss the whole point of Hebrews 10 (and the great majority of the book of Hebrews): God is giving us, in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, a new and better (living) way (10:20); a single sacrifice given ONCE FOR ALL (10:10, 12, 14) as opposed to repeated and ineffective sacrifices (10:11); He gives us a sacrifice that can make us PERFECT in righteousness (10:1, 14); He takes away a system of repeated sacrifices in order to establish a second system with only ONE single sacrifice / offering (10:9). This one-time offering still exists, BUT IT CAN NEVER BE “OFFERED” AGAIN as a sin offering, as Catholics claim to do in the Eucharist. De Maria, even if it could be proven that there WAS a universal priesthood in the Old Testament (and I do not concede that), the book of Hebrews utterly destroys the idea that there is a ministerial priesthood for the church today.
On the contrary, the book of Hebrews proves the necessity of the Priesthood when read with the context of the Traditions of the Church. It is in this context that the book was written. I explained Heb 10 in more detail in my response to part 4 earlier.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Russell said...
ReplyDelete(Part 7) When Jesus uttered those immortal words on the cross, “It is finished,” it is no coincidence that the veil of the holy of holies tore from top to bottom (Matthew 27:51). The Father was making a monumental statement: Everyone who trusts in Jesus’ death and suffering on the cross now has access to the throne room of God. There is no more offering / sacrifice for sin. The debt for sin is fully paid. There is no more need for a ministerial priesthood because there are no more atoning sacrifices to offer… because we now have the perfect One.
Close but not quite. There are no more animal sacrifices. Only one for all. The Sacrifice of our Lord on the Cross.
And when Jesus said, "It is finished", He meant His part in the Sacrifice. Not ours. We must still apply His Sacrifice to our lives.
God then gave the Jews approximately forty years to recognize this, but they continued to sacrifice in the temple. In 70 A.D., that great temple was totally destroyed. Again, God was making a statement that would echo throughout eternity: “I told you, NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SIN!”
And I told you, "Christ is our Passover."
1 Corinthians 5:7
King James Version (KJV)
7Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
There remains no more sacrifice for those who refuse His Sacrifice by continuing in their sins:
Hebrews 10:26-27
King James Version (KJV)
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Again, thanks for commenting.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Hi De Maria,
ReplyDeleteJust a few comments to cover some major points.
I had pointed out from the Scriptures that apostasy had entered the church early on, and you said:
“Are you somehow insinuating that the entire Church fell into apostasy? Then what kind of faith do you have in Christ Jesus…?”
If you look back on my comments, you’ll see that I SPECIFICALLY said that apostasy “has entered the church from the earliest times. ALTHOUGH NOT A COMPLETE APOSTASY, it was nevertheless present in different degrees and in different places early on, even in the days of the apostles.” (Change in emphasis added) This does not contradict Matthew 16:18 in any way.
You brought up 1 Timothy 3:15 (which says that the church is the “pillar and ground of the truth”) and claimed that this means that the church has “infallibility.”
Once again, context is ignored by Catholics. The chapter says nothing about infallibility. The context is about the responsibility of the church leaders and how they should behave. It is about the church’s OBLIGATION to uphold the truth. There is nothing about special powers, privileges, or guaranteed protection from error for anyone in the (post-apostolic) church. See my article on this topic here:
http://answeringcatholicclaims.blogspot.com/search?q=pillar+and+ground
Concerning Matthew 12:1-8 (working on the Sabbath) proving the priesthood, you said:
“I guess we disagree. Because that is precisely the point of the story. Jesus told the Jews that He is God and the Disciples His ministerial Priests.”
No, I’m sorry, De Maria, but we never ever see Jesus refer to the apostles as ministerial priests. He is indeed making the point that He is the Lord of the Sabbath (v. 8). We both agree on that. But context also clearly shows that He is allowing works of “necessity” and compassion on the Sabbath and He is condemning the legalism of the Pharisees (v. 5, 10-12). If Jesus were trying to say that the apostles were priests like the Levites, He would have said, “Hey, these guys have a special ministry and a special authority that makes them exempt from the Sabbath laws.” But He makes no such claim because that’s not His point at all.
You said that I was focusing on David (v. 3-4) and that Jesus didn’t say that David was guiltless for eating the bread in the Temple.
First of all, we have no record of David being punished for this act. He was innocent. Why else would Jesus use him as an example in this particular context? Second, in this context, Jesus was stressing compassion (v. 7) for those who (of necessity) broke the letter of the law, but are innocent.
(Part 2 of 2)
ReplyDeleteMoving on, you stated that I misunderstood Hebrews 10:10:
“By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”
Here, “the body of Jesus Christ” is NOT speaking of a “Eucharist,” as you suggest. This is about the work of Jesus on Calvary’s cross.
Now, Catholics may claim that His work on Calvary and the Catholic Eucharist are “one and the same,” and that Calvary is somehow “re-presented” each time the Eucharist is celebrated. But this cannot be, because of several reasons:
1) Jesus Christ, as High Priest, has OFFERED HIMSELF (Hebrews 7:27; 9:14) – mere man cannot offer Him in sacrifice. The ritual of celebrating the Catholic Eucharist is man “offering Jesus” to God as a sacrifice, but there is no scriptural warrant for such a thing. Only HE (being the ONLY High Priest) could “offer” this sacrifice.
2) This sacrifice could only be offered ONCE (once for all – Hebrews 7:27; 9:28; 10:10, 12, 18). The “continual offering” of the Eucharist as a sacrifice for sin just proves that it is not the same as Calvary.
3) There is no such thing in Scripture as a historical event (like Calvary) being physically “re-presented” or being “made present.” Calvary is no more physically “made present” at the Mass than the death of every Egyptian first-born son was physically “made present” every time the Old Testament Jews celebrated the Passover. Today, Communion / breaking bread is a MEMORIAL, just as the Passover was. Jesus said, “This do in REMEMBRANCE of Me.” (Luke 22:19)
See my two part article on the Eucharist here:
http://answeringcatholicclaims.blogspot.com/2009/10/eucharist-part-1.html
And here:
http://answeringcatholicclaims.blogspot.com/2009/11/eucharist-part-2.html
Once again, since there is no more offering / sacrifice (animal or otherwise) to bring for sin, there is no more ministerial priesthood.
Russell said...
ReplyDeleteHi De Maria,
Hi Russell, thanks for responding. Just a few comments to cover some major points.
Ok. I had pointed out from the Scriptures that apostasy had entered the church early on, and you said: “Are you somehow insinuating that the entire Church fell into apostasy? Then what kind of faith do you have in Christ Jesus…?” If you look back on my comments, you’ll see that I SPECIFICALLY said that apostasy “has entered the church from the earliest times. ALTHOUGH NOT A COMPLETE APOSTASY, it was nevertheless present in different degrees and in different places early on, even in the days of the apostles.” (Change in emphasis added) This does not contradict Matthew 16:18 in any way.
That is true. Christians have fallen into apostasy and heresy from the beginning. Some of the earliest such problems are recorded in Scripture. The Protestant Reformers are an example of such apostasy and heresy. But Christ has upheld His Church, the Catholic Church, throughout the centuries. You brought up 1 Timothy 3:15 (which says that the church is the “pillar and ground of the truth”) and claimed that this means that the church has “infallibility.” Once again, context is ignored by Catholics. The chapter says nothing about infallibility. The context is about the responsibility of the church leaders and how they should behave. It is about the church’s OBLIGATION to uphold the truth. There is nothing about special powers, privileges, or guaranteed protection from error for anyone in the (post-apostolic) church.
On the contrary, St. Paul was telling his disciples that he would instruct them how to behave in the Institution which the the Holy Spirit inspired him to describe as the Pillar and Foundation of Truth. Thus confirming that the Catholic Church is infallible.
See my article on this topic here: http://answeringcatholicclaims.blogspot.com/search?q=pillar+and+ground
When I have a chance, I will respond to that point by point.
To be cont'd
cont'd
ReplyDeleteConcerning Matthew 12:1-8 (working on the Sabbath) proving the priesthood, you said: “I guess we disagree. Because that is precisely the point of the story. Jesus told the Jews that He is God and the Disciples His ministerial Priests.” No, I’m sorry, De Maria, but we never ever see Jesus refer to the apostles as ministerial priests. He is indeed making the point that He is the Lord of the Sabbath (v. 8). We both agree on that. But context also clearly shows that He is allowing works of “necessity” and compassion on the Sabbath and He is condemning the legalism of the Pharisees (v. 5, 10-12). If Jesus were trying to say that the apostles were priests like the Levites, He would have said, “Hey, these guys have a special ministry and a special authority that makes them exempt from the Sabbath laws.” But He makes no such claim because that’s not His point at all.
As I said, we disagree. My opinion is that Jesus made and explicit statement of His Divinity and compared the Apostles to the Levitical priests saying:
Matthew 12:5-8
King James Version (KJV)
5Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
6But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
7But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
8For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day. You said that I was focusing on David (v. 3-4) and that Jesus didn’t say that David was guiltless for eating the bread in the Temple.
First of all, we have no record of David being punished for this act.
Not necessary. Jesus said:
Matthew 12:4
4How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
Thus highlighting that it was lawful for the priests. And then He said that the Apostles were likewise guiltless.
He was innocent.
Jesus doesn't say so. You are reading that into the verse.
Why else would Jesus use him as an example in this particular context?
In order to highlight the ministerial priesthood.
Second, in this context, Jesus was stressing compassion (v. 7) for those who (of necessity) broke the letter of the law, but are innocent.
Nope. That was the next point which He made. They are related. But the first point is that of the Ministerial Priesthood of the Apostles.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Russell, sorry about the run on sentences in my first response. I hit post by mistake without previewing.
ReplyDeleteSincerely,
De Maria
ReplyDeleteRussell said...
(Part 2 of 2) Moving on, you stated that I misunderstood Hebrews 10:10: “By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.” Here, “the body of Jesus Christ” is NOT speaking of a “Eucharist,” as you suggest.
I disagree. It is an explicit mention of the Eucharist. The Eucharist is defined as the Body of Christ.
This is about the work of Jesus on Calvary’s cross. Now, Catholics may claim that His work on Calvary and the Catholic Eucharist are “one and the same,”
That is correct.
and that Calvary is somehow “re-presented” each time the Eucharist is celebrated. But this cannot be, because of several reasons: 1) Jesus Christ, as High Priest, has OFFERED HIMSELF (Hebrews 7:27; 9:14) – mere man cannot offer Him in sacrifice.
Well, that is true. The Sacrament works "ex opera operate". It is the work of God through man. And Priests are not mere men. They are Ambassadors of Christ.
The ritual of celebrating the Catholic Eucharist is man “offering Jesus” to God as a sacrifice,
Nope. It is Christ working through His Priesthood, whom, in His name, RE present the once for all Sacrifice to the Church that we may participate in the Christian Passover.
1 Corinthians 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
but there is no scriptural warrant for such a thing. Only HE (being the ONLY High Priest) could “offer” this sacrifice.
Sure there is. You simply don't recognize it because you have discarded the Traditions of Jesus Christ:
1 Corinthians 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
2) This sacrifice could only be offered ONCE (once for all – Hebrews 7:27; 9:28; 10:10, 12, 18).
It was only offered ONCE for all. By Christ. That is once for all, in all generations. And the way to apply the grace which He released in His Sacrifice is to consume it:
John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
The “continual offering” of the Eucharist as a sacrifice for sin just proves that it is not the same as Calvary.
On the contrary, it is one continual offering and that proves it is DIVINE in origin. As no man can do such a thing. Christ continually offers Himself to the Father in heaven because in heaven there is no time. Heaven is the ever present NOW.
Revelation 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
cont'd
cont'd
ReplyDelete3) There is no such thing in Scripture as a historical event (like Calvary) being physically “re-presented” or being “made present.” Calvary is no more physically “made present” at the Mass than the death of every Egyptian first-born son was physically “made present” every time the Old Testament Jews celebrated the Passover. Today, Communion / breaking bread is a MEMORIAL, just as the Passover was. Jesus said, “This do in REMEMBRANCE of Me.” (Luke 22:19)
Scripture says so:
1 Corinthians 10:15-17
King James Version (KJV)
15I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.
16The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
17For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.
See my two part article on the Eucharist here: http://answeringcatholicclaims.blogspot.com/2009/10/eucharist-part-1.html And here: http://answeringcatholicclaims.blogspot.com/2009/11/eucharist-part-2.html
I'd love to. When I get a chance, I'll write up a response.
Once again, since there is no more offering / sacrifice (animal or otherwise) to bring for sin, there is no more ministerial priesthood.
For the above stated reasons, I disagree.
Thanks again for responding.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Hi De Maria,
ReplyDeleteThanks for your response. With all due respect, I feel that the great majority of your comments in your last response are simply begging the question. Again, we'll let the reader decide. Thanks again for the discussion.
In His Name,
Russell
Hebrews 10:11-12 does away with the old testament priesthood as christ in the New Testament became our high priesthood who gave himself up as a sin offering once and for all. Therefore the catholic priesthood is defunct and a waste of time.
ReplyDeleteThe Old Testament priesthood is done away and the New Priesthood in the Order of Melchizedek is established by Jesus Christ. Jesus as High Priest stood before His disciples and said, "do this in memory of me" (Luke 22:19; 1 Cor 11:24). In so doing, He established the New Testament Passover Sacrifice, the Mass and the New Testament Priesthood to offer that Sacrifice.
DeleteSincerely,
De Maria
Luke 22:19 and 1 Cor 11:24 only speaks of "remembrance" and NOT offering of sin through a sacrifice offering, till the second coming of Christ.
ReplyDeleteAccording to the CCC, the mass is an unbloody sacrifice in which the Sacrifice of the Cross is perpetuated to also take away sin which is not in agreement as the scriptures says that Christ atonement was once for all.
In Luke 22:19 The observance does indeed help us to remember Jesus and the wonderful things accomplished by his death. It reminds us that Jesus upheld the sovereignty of his Father. It also reminds us that by means of his death as a perfect, sinless human, Jesus gave “his soul a ransom in exchange for many.” The ransom makes it possible for any who would exercise faith in his sacrifice to be freed from sin and to attain to everlasting life. Mat 20:28. Therefore the Catholic Mass is "kaput".
Also the doctrine of transubstantiation or the real presence is false teaching of the Roman Cartholic Church because such teaching makes St.Paul a liar in 2 Corinthians 5:16.
Question: What was the core "purpose" for Jesus - the Son of God incarnate in the flesh - to come to into the world?
Luke 22:19 and 1 Cor 11:24 only speaks of "remembrance" and NOT offering of sin through a sacrifice offering, till the second coming of Christ.
DeleteI'm not sure what you mean by "offering of sin". I'll assume you mean "offering for sin". If that is the case, Jesus did not need to be explicit about what He was doing at that point. In both cases, He was speaking to Jews. They were familiar with offerings and sacrifices. They knew that He was the Lamb of God. They were familiar with the Passover where a lamb is sacrificed as an offering to God in thanksgiving for saving the nation of Israel from the Egyptians. Therefore, when Jesus said, "Take, eat, this is my Body and take, drink the Cup of my Blood of the New Covenant", they recognized the sacrificial language and the offering which He was telling them to make in Thanksgiving for His sacrifice for their sins.
According to the CCC, the mass is an unbloody sacrifice in which the Sacrifice of the Cross is perpetuated to also take away sin which is not in agreement as the scriptures says that Christ atonement was once for all.
And, that is how it is perpetuated. The offering of the Jewish Passover was not concluded when the lamb was sacrificed. The Offering of Christ was not concluded when He was sacrificed on the Cross. In both cases, the offering is concluded when we eat the offering. In the case of Jesus' offering, it becomes perpetual. It is the ONCE FOR ALL offering.
In Luke 22:19 The observance does indeed help us to remember Jesus and the wonderful things accomplished by his death. It reminds us that Jesus upheld the sovereignty of his Father. It also reminds us that by means of his death as a perfect, sinless human, Jesus gave “his soul a ransom in exchange for many.” The ransom makes it possible for any who would exercise faith in his sacrifice to be freed from sin and to attain to everlasting life. Mat 20:28. Therefore the Catholic Mass is "kaput".
If you were a Jew and said, the lamb has been sacrificed and the blood poured on the Altar, therefore, we don't have to eat. You would be cut off from your people. This is what St. Paul says about those who despise the Mass and thus the offering of Jesus Christ for our sins on the Cross:
Hebrews 10:25-31
King James Version (KJV)
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
cont'd
Anonymous, you also said:
DeleteAlso the doctrine of transubstantiation or the real presence is false teaching of the Roman Cartholic Church because such teaching makes St.Paul a liar in 2 Corinthians 5:16.
Read it more carefully. That verse is not speaking about Jesus' flesh, but about us BEING in the flesh. In order to know Jesus we must be in what we call, "a state of grace". What you would call, "living according to the Spirit". Let me show you what Scripture says:
Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Galatians 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Question: What was the core "purpose" for Jesus - the Son of God incarnate in the flesh - to come to into the world?
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Yes Jesus was speaking to the Jews, however Christian doctrine comes from the Apostolic teachings of St. Peter and St. Paul. You need to study your bible, dispensationally, as you got the doctrines horribly messed up. Most of the Gospel exhortations are geared toward the nation Israel and the Jews. The Door of salvation for the Gentiles only opened up from the book of Acts chapter 10 when Cornelius was the first Gentiles (non-Jews) to be saved. In the Bible there are teachings specifically for the jews and are not for the Gentiles (see Galatians 1:13-16. You will also see in the book of Acts that St. Paul rebukes the heresy of the circumcision when certain Jews started imposing that the gentiles must be circumcised to be saved.
ReplyDeleteYour interpretation of 2 Corinthians 5:16 is also wrong. Here St.Paul says that Jesus who came into the flesh is now no more in the flesh as he ascended bodily into heaven and is seated at the right hand of God. He WILL (future) come to judge the living and the dead. The Holy Spirit of God is now "the vicar of Christ" on earth who intercedes for all true born-again believers till Christ second coming. So there is no real presence. Catholics are simply fooled to believe a lie in order tie them up in perpetual bondage. If there is no mass the RC Church is a dead duck.
Ok .. in reply to my question .. I agree with your answer. But also please note that the appropriate answer also hinges on Mark 19:10. But the question is .. does you catholic church teach the same in accordance to the answer you have given me in response to my question? NO!!!
So let me show you the official teaching of the Catholic Church and you will be surprise at the answer.. that proves the catholic church is a "cult" religion that says - ""For the Son of God became man so that we might become God. Therefore it is false and not in agreement to your interpretation you gave which is John 3:16. See para #460 of the CCC at http://www.scborromeo.org/mobileccc/p122a3p1.htm#I for the shocking answer.
It is very easy to identify cult religions of man and one of the traits that cult religions exhibit is the exhortations in their literature exactly what is mentioned at para #460 of the CCC.
why do you use the KJV Bible? Is it not an non-Catholic Bible? Why are you hiding behind a veil of darkness and deception, a wolf in sheep clothing? Why don't you rely the corrupted catholic bible to even further corrupt you understanding?
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said:
Deletewhy do you use the KJV Bible?
Because, back when I used Catholic Bibles, Protestants objected that, "of course Catholic Bibles will support Catholic Teaching." Therefore, I use their Bibles to support Catholic Teaching.
Is it not an non-Catholic Bible?
It is the most popular Protestant Bible. It is the one which most Protestants will accept.
Why are you hiding behind a veil of darkness and deception, a wolf in sheep clothing?
You'll have to be more specific. What is it that you consider darkness and deception?
Why don't you rely the corrupted catholic bible to even further corrupt you understanding?
Lol! Catholic Bibles are better translations than any other Bibles. But, I use the KJV in order to placate Protestants. Thanks for the laugh. This is the first time a non-Catholic objected to my using the KJV.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Because, back when I used Catholic Bibles, Protestants objected that, "of course Catholic Bibles will support Catholic Teaching." Therefore, I use their Bibles to support Catholic Teaching.
DeleteActually it is the opposite .. Lay Catholics have been falsely cautioned by the clergy to stay away from protestant bibles, i know this personally. You use the KJV not to placate protestants, but rather it is the best bible out there. God has preserved his infallible/inerrant Word only in the KJV. The rest are satanic deceptions constructed from corrupted and doctored manuscripts.
Please show me which Catholic Bibles are better ... and why.. much appreciated.
And hey .. were is my post on that para #460 off the CCC? You have slyly not published it. Afraid of the truth that the Roman Catholicism is a pagan religion and a cult? :)
DeleteJust one example ...Which is rich in exhortation, the first one is KJV or the second, NASB?
ReplyDelete1) 2 Timothy 2:15 - "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth".
2.) 2 Timothy 2:15 - "Be eager to present yourself as acceptable to God, a workman who causes no disgrace, imparting the word of truth without deviation".
Anonymous said:
ReplyDeleteYes Jesus was speaking to the Jews, however Christian doctrine comes from the Apostolic teachings of St. Peter and St. Paul.
Christian doctrine comes from Christ. Apostolic Teaching comes from all the Apostles.
You need to study your bible, dispensational,
No thanks. Dispensalionalism is another Protestant invention that has nothing to do with God's word.
as you got the doctrines horribly messed up. Most of the Gospel exhortations are geared toward the nation Israel and the Jews. The Door of salvation for the Gentiles only opened up from the book of Acts chapter 10 when Cornelius was the first Gentiles (non-Jews) to be saved. In the Bible there are teachings specifically for the jews and are not for the Gentiles (see Galatians 1:13-16.
That particular one was for the entire Church. However, Romans 11:17 is directed to Gentile converts to Christianity.
You will also see in the book of Acts that St. Paul rebukes the heresy of the circumcision when certain Jews started imposing that the gentiles must be circumcised to be saved.
True.
Your interpretation of 2 Corinthians 5:16 is also wrong.
Let's go through the Scripture. Because I'm certain that if you disagree with the Catholic Church, your interpretations are in error. The interpretations to which I adhere are those of the Catholic Church and they are infallible. Dispensationalism is a Protestant novelly and an error.
Here St.Paul says that Jesus who came into the flesh is now no more in the flesh as he ascended bodily into heaven and is seated at the right hand of God. He WILL (future) come to judge the living and the dead.
That is not what that verse says at all. You are reading into it that which you want to be in it. But you are wrong. What it says is that "we know no man in the flesh". The reason that is true is because we no longer live in the flesh but in the Spirit. That is, if you are a child of God. If you are not a child of God then you live in the flesh and this verse does not apply to you.
cont'd
cont'd
DeleteAnonymous also said:
The Holy Spirit of God is now "the vicar of Christ" on earth
Nope. The Holy Spirit is God therefore can't be the "vicar" of Christ. A vicar is the representative of a superior. Jesus is not greater than the Holy Spirit.
who intercedes for all true born-again believers till Christ second coming. So there is no real presence.
Your logic is false. Jesus Himself declared His Real Presence and it is true whether you believe it or not.
Catholics are simply fooled to believe a lie in order tie them up in perpetual bondage. If there is no mass the RC Church is a dead duck.
There is a real Mass, therefore it is Reformed religion which is a dead duck. Ok .. in reply to my question .. I agree with your answer. But also please note that the appropriate answer also hinges on Mark 19:10.
The KJV doesn't have a Mark 19:10. Nor does any other Bible. So I can't comment.
But the question is .. does you catholic church teach the same in accordance to the answer you have given me in response to my question? NO!!!
Sure it does. You see, we believe Jesus when He says that this "Bread is My Body". You don't. Therefore, John 3:16 is very pertinent to Catholic Teaching. It is we who believe Christ. You who don't.
So let me show you the official teaching of the Catholic Church and you will be surprise at the answer.. that proves the catholic church is a "cult" religion that says - ""For the Son of God became man so that we might become God. Therefore it is false and not in agreement to your interpretation you gave which is John 3:16. See para #460 of the CCC at http://www.scborromeo.org/mobileccc/p122a3p1.htm#I for the shocking answer.
There is nothing shocking about it. Did you not know that Scripture says we are gods (John 10:34-36)? Did Jesus not say we were to be perfect like our Father in Heaven (Matthew 5:48)? Did St. Peter not say that we are partakers of the Divine Nature (2 Peter 1:4)? Why are you afraid to believe the Word of God?
It is very easy to identify cult religions of man and one of the traits that cult religions exhibit is the exhortations in their literature exactly what is mentioned at para #460 of the CCC
The Catholic Church is the Church which Jesus Christ built. You haven't identified your church, but it is a cult because it adopted novel errors which are not in Scripture and preaches them as truth.
Actually it is the opposite .. Lay Catholics have been falsely cautioned by the clergy to stay away from protestant bibles, i know this personally.
Its not a false caution. I second that caution. I believe I understand the Scriptures well enough to be able to identify where the errors are in the Protestant Scriptures and compensate for them.
cont'd
cont'd
DeleteAnonymous also said:
You use the KJV not to placate protestants, but rather it is the best bible out there.
1. Lol! If it is the best bible out there, then why are you objecting to my using it?
2. The best Bible out there is the Douay. If I used it to debunk your errors, you'd be crying that I was using a Bible with which you don't agree. I know. I"ve had Protestants object to my using the Douay before.
3. As Scripture says:
Matt 11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. 16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows, 17 And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.
Can't win for losing with you folk.
God has preserved his infallible/inerrant Word only in the KJV. The rest are satanic deceptions constructed from corrupted and doctored manuscripts.
And the KJV supports Catholic doctrine.
Please show me which Catholic Bibles are better ... and why.. much appreciated.
The Douay is the best because it preserves the ancient understanding of the Scriptures. Let me give you an example:
Genesis 3:15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.
The KJV and all other Bible say:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
But the original Greek says:
shiyth eybah ishshah sera sera shuwph rash shuwph age
Literally:
Put enmity woman seed seed bruise head bruise heel
God therefore has put enmity between the Woman and Satan.
And God also put enmity between the Seed of the Woman and the Seed of Satan.
To be consistent, the Seed of the Woman would crush the Seed of Satan.
Or the Woman will crush Satan.
The only Bibles with a consistent rendering of this passage are Catholic Bibles which are based upon the Latin Vulgate.
And hey .. were is my post on that para #460 off the CCC? You have slyly not published it. Afraid of the truth that the Roman Catholicism is a pagan religion and a cult? :)
Apparently, google identified it as a spam comment and put it in a separate bin for moderation. I have released it and responded to it above.
Just one example ...Which is rich in exhortation, the first one is KJV or the second, NASB?
1) 2 Timothy 2:15 - "Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth".
2.) 2 Timothy 2:15 - "Be eager to present yourself as acceptable to God, a workman who causes no disgrace, imparting the word of truth without deviation".
Those are both Protestant Bibles. But the KJV rendering is better. The Douay is best, it says:
2 Tim 2:[15] Carefully study to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
Sincerely,
De Maria
I am not objecting that you use the KJV .. only surprised the first time, as on many Catholic blogs i have posted they have actually objected me using the KJV, saying it is a "protestant" interpretation. The local catholic bookstore (st.paul bookstore) where i live, also sells "protestant" bibles - another suprise. I don't see your logic in using KJV to placate protestants.. or should we say .. wooing protestant's? Even if you are using the KJV to placate protestants, still all that you post with scripture reference in support has no relevance, whatsoever, and is simply "mumbo-jumbo".
ReplyDeleteI mistakenly mentioned NASB instead of NABRE found at http://usccb.org/bible/books-of-the-bible/. Still it is a doctored version and is not a accurate translation.
In respect to 2 Tim 2:15 - between the KJV and Douay - there is no much difference to cry about, except the Douay adds "carefully" as the first word in that verse.
The important one is "study" which other Catholic versions have missing. Also "dividing" is better than "handling" the word of truth, as the later is vague. If the
Douay is better, then why other Catholic bibles cannot emulate it instead??
Also the Douay version is a "jesuit bible" - doctored by the jesuits (pals of ignatius loyola). It is doctored to suit catholic teaching. It has the words like - chalice and others, which has a Catholic bias in the translation of the text, and they were printed with explanatory notes which served to instruct the reader in traditional Roman Catholic interpretations. So the Doauy is not superior because it is not consistent with other Bibles including other catholic bibles. You must also note that the Doauy is based of the latin vulgate and no the greek text.
In response to Gen 3:15 - the diff between two catholic versions (Douay and NAB) aslo differs considerably:
"I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel." (Douay).
"I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel." (NAB).
Again the Douay is not superior as it as inconsistensies. The world over knows the hidden agenda of coming out with doctored Bible version of those jesuit priests - and their mystcial founder ignatius loyola - perhaps you bro-in-law?
In respect to John 10:34-36, Matthew 5:48 and 2 Peter 1:4, you have simply blown the scripture interpretation out of context. We do not become Gods as God does not "share" His glory, but God allows us to be partakers in his divine glory only thru Christ Jesus only - as part of his plan of salvation. The meaning of the word "partaking" does not mean we become Gods.
If we become Gods than we will not require God. This is how satan tricked Eve in Genesis - right? Also all those cult religions like SDA, JV, Mormons including catholicism in "official" teachings always teach their adherents that "ye are Gods". Original Christianity is established on the tenets of monotheistic belief and not pantheistic beliefs. " I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me (John 14:6). Also adherents of contemplative spirituality (spirtuality that has "roots" in eastern mysticism) believe they are Gods.
Jesus Christ is never the founder of the Catholic relgion. The Catholic church has survived on lies and fabricated documents till date. Acts 11:26 says it otherwise.
One of the great wonders of the world to me is how anyone could claim to be a Catholic and still believe the Bible is God's Word. Even the Catholic Douay version of the Bible condemns the Catholic faith repeatedly. The honest truth is that Catholics have been brainwashed to accept the traditional teachings of the Vatican as superior to whatever the Word of God actually says.
Hi Anonymous,
DeleteThanks for responding.
I am not objecting that you use the KJV .
It really sounds like you are objecting. Otherwise, why bring it up at all?
only surprised the first time, as on many Catholic blogs i have posted they have actually objected me using the KJV, saying it is a "protestant" interpretation.
That is true. I used to also until I got used to it.
The local catholic bookstore (st.paul bookstore) where i live, also sells "protestant" bibles - another suprise. I don't see your logic in using KJV to placate protestants.. or should we say .. wooing protestant's?
Wooing Protestants? That isn't true at all. I simply respond to Protestant errors and prove them wrong with their own Bible.
Even if you are using the KJV to placate protestants, still all that you post with scripture reference in support has no relevance, whatsoever, and is simply "mumbo-jumbo".
I'll let the readers decide whether it is you or I who are putting forth, "mumbo-jumbo".
I mistakenly mentioned NASB instead of NABRE found at http://usccb.org/bible/books-of-the-bible/. Still it is a doctored version and is not a accurate translation.
I think it is better than the KJV.
In respect to 2 Tim 2:15 - between the KJV and Douay - there is no much difference to cry about, except the Douay adds "carefully" as the first word in that verse. The important one is "study" which other Catholic versions have missing. Also "dividing" is better than "handling" the word of truth, as the later is vague. If the Douay is better, then why other Catholic bibles cannot emulate it instead??
Something is strange here. Are you putting yourself forward as AUTHORITY over the Bible? Do you have control of what is God's word? Please show me from Scripture where I must accept your authority over what is true Scripture.
cont'd
cont'd
DeleteAnonymous said:
Also the Douay version is a "jesuit bible"
Excellent people those Jesuits!
- doctored by the jesuits (pals of ignatius loyola). It is doctored to suit catholic teaching. It has the words like - chalice and others, which has a Catholic bias in the translation of the text, and they were printed with explanatory notes which served to instruct the reader in traditional Roman Catholic interpretations. So the Doauy is not superior because it is not consistent with other Bibles including other catholic bibles. You must also note that the Doauy is based of the latin vulgate and no the greek text.
All those are pluses, not minuses.
First, Jesus did not write a Bible. He established Tradition. Any Bible which is translated without regard to Tradition is therefore crippled.
Second, The Douai is based on the Vulgate which was written in Latin but was based on the Latin, Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek versions of Scripture which existed at the time of St. Jerome (400 ad).
Third, the Vulgate was considered the best Bible of its time being the most used Bible for 1000 years before the first Protestant set foot on the earth.
Fourth, I don't think the Jesuits had much to do with the Douai, but any input they may have had would be welcomed.
In response to Gen 3:15 - the diff between two catholic versions (Douay and NAB) aslo differs considerably: "I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel." (Douay). "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel." (NAB).
I said the Douay was the best. The NAB is an ecumenical Bible. It isn't completely a Catholic work. This is the preface of the NAB:
....The completed books of the Old Testament were initially published, as they became available, in four volumes: Genesis–Ruth (1952), Job–Sirach (1955), Isaiah–Malachi (1961), and Samuel–Maccabees (1969). Some fifty scholars collaborated on this project; these were mainly Catholics, but, in accord with the suggestion of Vatican II that “with the approval of the church authority, these translations be produced in cooperation with separated brothers” so that “all Christians may be able to use them” (Dei Verbum, No. 22), non-Catholics also participated in the work. and they did make accommodations for the Protestants who participated in the project ....
cont'd
Anonymous also said:
DeleteAgain the Douay is not superior as it as inconsistencies.
No. It doesn't. It is the best English translation.
The world over knows the hidden agenda of coming out with doctored Bible version of those jesuit priests - and their mystcial founder ignatius loyola - perhaps you bro-in-law?
Lol! That's funny. Nope. We're only related by faith. Brothers in Christ.
In respect to John 10:34-36, Matthew 5:48 and 2 Peter 1:4, you have simply blown the scripture interpretation out of context. We do not become Gods
We become "gods" with a small "g". Just as Jesus said.
as God does not "share" His glory, but God allows us to be partakers in his divine glory only thru Christ Jesus only - as part of his plan of salvation. The meaning of the word "partaking" does not mean we become Gods.
God is "love". Therefore love is God's glory. And He shares His glory with all who keep His Commandments:
John 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
If we become Gods than we will not require God.
You are mistaken. We do not become Gods. There is only one God. But there are many "gods". As Christ Himself said.
This is how satan tricked Eve in Genesis - right?
Are you calling Christ, Satan? It is Christ who said:
John 10:34-36
King James Version (KJV)
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
And Christ is there quoting Scripture:
Psalm 82:6
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
Are you denying the Word of God?
Also all those cult religions like SDA, JV, Mormons including catholicism in "official" teachings always teach their adherents that "ye are Gods".
Wrong. We believe the Scripture which says, "ye are gods". Small "g".
Original Christianity is established on the tenets of monotheistic belief and not pantheistic beliefs. " I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me (John 14:6). Also adherents of contemplative spirituality (spirtuality that has "roots" in eastern mysticism) believe they are Gods.
In reality it is you who believe you are Gods since you put yourself over Scripture. Scripture says, "ye are gods" and you deny it. That means you are putting yourself over God's word.
Jesus Christ is never the founder of the Catholic relgion. The Catholic church has survived on lies and fabricated documents till date. Acts 11:26 says it otherwise.
The Catholic Church is the Church Jesus Christ established. The Catholic Church is the only one that can trace her history to Jesus Christ. Yours can only go as far as Luther, at the best. No further.
One of the great wonders of the world to me is how anyone could claim to be a Catholic and still believe the Bible is God's Word. Even the Catholic Douay version of the Bible condemns the Catholic faith repeatedly. The honest truth is that Catholics have been brainwashed to accept the traditional teachings of the Vatican as superior to whatever the Word of God actually says.
Let's compare your doctrines to Scripture and Catholic doctrine to Scripture. I guarantee your doctrines which conflict with the Catholic Church also conflict with the Scriptures.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Catholicism usurps all that was in place before coming into existence - the devils work actually. Doctrinal errors result from not rightly dividing the Word of Truth. Don't take the truth of a past dispensation and bring it to the present. for example:
ReplyDelete(i) Roman Catholicism brings paganism ad Judaism forward into Christianity. Likewise:
(ii) Seventh Day Adventist brings Jewish law into the present church age dispensation.
AnonymousMay 23, 2012 7:28 PM
Delete. Catholicism usurps all that was in place before coming into existence - …..
.
. Its really hard to have a polite discussion with you if you keep insulting my Faith. If you continue in this vein, I will simply delete your messages.
.
. Doctrinal errors result from not rightly dividing the Word of Truth.
.
. Then let us compare your doctrines and the Catholic Church's doctrines to Scripture and see who is rightly dividing the Word of Truth and who is not.
Cont'd ..
ReplyDeleteExcellent people those Jesuits!
See here and they many live examples i can give .. http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19980624_demello_en.html.
A sample "statement of belief" from a jesuit blog i paste below"
No service of faith without promotion of justice entry into cultures openness to other religious experiences ..
As i said earlier, original biblical christianity is "monotheistic" and certainly the above statement of belief is "pantheistic" and therefore is not christian belief.
Anonymous said:
Delete.
See here and they many live examples i can give .. http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19980624_demello_en.html.
A sample "statement of belief" from a jesuit blog i paste below" No service of faith without promotion of justice entry into cultures openness to other religious experiences .
. As i said earlier, original biblical christianity is "monotheistic" and certainly the above statement of belief is "pantheistic" and therefore is not christian belief.
What are you insinuating? You keep accusing of "pantheistism". Yet the Catholic Church has condemned pantheism throughout history.
I am not insinuating anything .. those are facts from official catholic sources but it seems you cannot stomach the facts. Its a pity and a crying shame. Born-again children of God will always admit the truth and shame the devil.
DeleteFacts? All you have done is post a Catholic document and then post your twisted understanding of it. You post the facts and then twist them. In addition, your insinuation is not even clear. What do you mean to say about the Catholic doctrine? Please be clear.
DeleteIn reality it is you who believe you are Gods since you put yourself over Scripture. Scripture says, "ye are gods" and you deny it. That means you are putting yourself over God's word.
ReplyDelete"What does the Bible mean by 'you are gods' / 'ye are gods' in Psalm 82:6 and John 10:34?"
Let’s start with a look at Psalm 82, the psalm that Jesus quotes in John 10:34. The Hebrew word translated “gods” in Psalm 82:6 is Elohim. It usually refers to the one true God, but it does have other uses. Psalm 82:1 says, “God presides in the great assembly; he gives judgment among the gods.” It is clear from the next three verses that the word “gods” refers to magistrates, judges, and other people who hold positions of authority and rule. Calling a human magistrate a “god” indicates three things: 1) he has authority over other human beings, 2) the power he wields as a civil authority is to be feared, and 3) he derives his power and authority from God Himself, who is pictured as judging the whole earth in verse 8.
This use of the word “gods” to refer to humans is rare, but it is found elsewhere in the Old Testament. For example, when God sent Moses to Pharaoh, He said, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh” (Exodus 7:1). This simply means that Moses, as the messenger of God, was speaking God’s words and would therefore be God’s representative to the king. The Hebrew word Elohim is translated “judges” in Exodus 21:6 and 22:8, 9, and 28.
The whole point of Psalm 82 is that earthly judges must act with impartiality and true justice, because even judges must stand someday before the Judge. Verses 6 and 7 warn human magistrates that they, too, must be judged: “I said, `You are gods; you are all sons of the Most High.' But you will die like mere men; you will fall like every other ruler.” This passage is saying that God has appointed men to positions of authority in which they are considered as gods among the people. They are to remember that, even though they are representing God in this world, they are mortal and must eventually give an account to God for how they used that authority.
Now, let’s look at how Jesus uses this passage. Jesus had just claimed to be the Son of God (John 10:25-30). The unbelieving Jews respond by charging Jesus with blasphemy, since He claimed to be God (verse 33). Jesus then quotes Psalm 82:6, reminding the Jews that the Law refers to mere men—albeit men of authority and prestige—as “gods.” Jesus’ point is this: you charge me with blasphemy based on my use of the title “Son of God”; yet your own Scriptures apply the same term to magistrates in general. If those who hold a divinely appointed office can be considered “gods,” how much more can the One whom God has chosen and sent (verses 34-36)?
In contrast, we have the serpent’s lie to Eve in the Garden. His statement, “your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil” (Genesis 3:5), was a half-truth. Their eyes were opened (verse 7), but they did not become like God. In fact, they lost authority, rather than gaining it. Satan deceived Eve about her ability to become like the one true God, and so led her into a lie. Jesus defended His claim to be the Son of God on biblical and semantic grounds—there is a sense in which influential men can be thought of as gods; therefore, the Messiah can rightly apply the term to Himself. Human beings are not “gods” or “little gods.” We are not God. God is God, and we who know Christ are His children.
Anonymous said: "What does the Bible mean by 'you are gods' / 'ye are gods' in Psalm 82:6 and John 10:34?"
DeleteIt means that we have become sons of God, adopted children of the Father. Have you not read in Scripture?
Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Let’s start with a look at Psalm 82, ….They are to remember that, even though they are representing God in this world, they are mortal and must eventually give an account to God for how they used that authority.
True. But you missed the point. God is telling them that they are His Children. Are you?
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
Are you a child of God or not? Do you cry, "Abba, Father!" or not?
Now, let’s look at how Jesus uses this passage. Jesus had just claimed to be the Son of God (John 10:25-30). The unbelieving Jews respond by charging Jesus with blasphemy, since He claimed to be God (verse 33). Jesus then quotes Psalm 82:6, reminding the Jews that the Law refers to mere men—albeit men of authority and prestige—as “gods.” Jesus’ point is this: you charge me with blasphemy based on my use of the title “Son of God”; yet your own Scriptures apply the same term to magistrates in general.
The Scriptures apply the word to magistrates in certain instances, but in Psalm 82, it is applied to the entire nation of Israel. God had long ago selected Israel for Himself:
Exodus 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine
If those who hold a divinely appointed office can be considered “gods,” how much more can the One whom God has chosen and sent (verses 34-36)?
And you are again missing the point. The point is that Jesus does not deny that God shares His divine Nature. His Spirit of Love with those whom He loves.
In contrast, we have the serpent’s lie to Eve in the Garden. His statement, “your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil” (Genesis 3:5), was a half-truth. Their eyes were opened (verse 7), but they did not become like God. In fact, they lost authority, rather than gaining it. Satan deceived Eve about her ability to become like the one true God, and so led her into a lie. Jesus defended His claim to be the Son of God on biblical and semantic grounds—there is a sense in which influential men can be thought of as gods; therefore, the Messiah can rightly apply the term to Himself. Human beings are not “gods” or “little gods.” We are not God. God is God, and we who know Christ are His children.
If we are children of God, then we partake of His nature. If we are not, then we don't. Are you born again a child of God, or not?
Hi de Maria.
DeleteIts nice that to know that you acknowledge that we only become the children of God by being born gain by Gods grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5).
The difference between you and I is in how we interpret the word, "faith". For us, having faith in Christ entails obedience and works, because He said:
DeleteJohn 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.
true biblical faith in Jesus Christ produces obedience and good works and not the reverse. A person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his/her life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his/her life, then he/she likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26).
DeleteSt. Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their lives is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10).
AnonymousMay 24, 2012 11:32 AM
Deletetrue biblical faith in Jesus Christ produces obedience and good works and not the reverse.
That is true. But your people teach faith alone saying that works are not necessary.
But Christ says:
Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
A person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his/her life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his/her life, then he/she likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26).
You just explained the Catholic Teaching.
St. Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their lives is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10).
Perfect. Therefore faith alone is dead.
But just to make it clearer. Wno will be saved, the good fruit believers or those who do not have good fruit but pretend to believe?
That is true. But your people teach faith alone saying that works are not necessary.
DeleteI have never heard this before and it is mis-understanding on your part. The scripture is clear that only true genuine faith in Christ Jesus will automatically result in obedience and good works. We do not be obedient and do good works to obtain faith. Likewise biblical salvation is by God's grace through faith in Christ Jesus. Salvation is a free gift (Ephesians 2:8-9), we do not do good works to merit God's free gift of salvation, likewise the CC sacraments are not a "necessity" for salvation.
Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works?"
DeleteThis is perhaps the most important question in all of Christian theology. This question is the cause of the Reformation, the split between the Protestant churches and Catholic Church. This question is a key difference between biblical Christianity and most of the “Christian” cults. Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works? Am I saved just by believing in Jesus, or do I have to believe in Jesus and do certain things?
The question of faith alone or faith plus works is made difficult by some hard-to-reconcile Bible passages. Compare Romans 3:28 5:1and Galatians 3:24 with James 2:24. Some see a difference between Paul (salvation is by faith alone) and James (salvation is by faith plus works). Paul dogmatically says that justification is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9), while James appears to be saying that justification is by faith plus works. This apparent problem is answered by examining what exactly James is talking about. James is refuting the belief that a person can have faith without producing any good works (James 2:17-18). James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works (James 2:20-26). James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his/her life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his/her life, then he/she likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26).
Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their lives is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10). Paul expects just as much of a changed life as James does: “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come” (2 Corinthians 5:17). James and Paul do not disagree in their teaching regarding salvation. They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasis on the fact that genuine faith in Christ produces good works.
Anonymous said
DeleteIs salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works?" This is perhaps the most important question in all of Christian theology.
I agree.
This question is the cause of the Reformation, the split between the Protestant churches and Catholic Church.
I agree.
This question is a key difference between biblical Christianity and most of the “Christian” cults.
I agree. This question is the key difference between Biblical Christianity and the faith alone cults.
Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works? Am I saved just by believing in Jesus, or do I have to believe in Jesus and do certain things?
Let's see what Scripture says:
Mark 16:16
He that believeth AND IS BAPTIZED shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
The question of faith alone or faith plus works is made difficult by some hard-to-reconcile Bible passages. Compare Romans 3:28 5:1and Galatians 3:24 with James 2:24. Some see a difference between Paul (salvation is by faith alone) and James (salvation is by faith plus works). Paul dogmatically says that justification is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9),
No, he doesn't. The problem is that you don't understand the Traditions of Jesus Christ and therefore you interpret the Scripture according to the errors of the Reformers. Here is what St Paul teaches:
Romans 2:13
King James Version (KJV)
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, BUT DOERS OF THE LAW shall be justified.
Now, let us look at Eph 2:8-10.
Ephesians 2:8-10
King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
What does that mean in the context of Scripture?
Look at it! DOERS of the law are justified. Before one is justified, one must walk in God's works. If one does not walk in God's works, one is not justified. Simple.
Let's look at another Scripture:
Matthew 7:21
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
while James appears to be saying that justification is by faith plus works.
He doesn't appear to be saying it. He is saying it:
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
This apparent problem is answered by examining what exactly James is talking about. James is refuting the belief that a person can have faith without producing any good works (James 2:17-18).
DeleteVery good. Now read this:
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Do you get it!? Without good works you don't have faith. Without faith, you can't please God.
James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works (James 2:20-26). James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his/her life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his/her life, then he/she likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26).
Oh yeah? Then explain this:
James 2:14
King James Version (KJV)
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
How about this?
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their lives is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10). Paul expects just as much of a changed life as James does: “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come” (2 Corinthians 5:17). James and Paul do not disagree in their teaching regarding salvation. They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasis on the fact that genuine faith in Christ produces good works.
You are absolutely wrong. I have addressed this here.
St. Paul was giving the Sacramental teaching that those who keep the Commandments are justified and saved. No one else.
1 Corinthians 6:8-10
King James Version (KJV)
8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Only those who keep the Commandments will be saved:
Revelation 22:13-15
King James Version (KJV)
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Yeah!
Cont'd..
ReplyDeleteI said the Douay was the best. The NAB is an ecumenical Bible. It isn't completely a Catholic work.
It doesn't matter whether the NAB isn't completely catholic. The mere fact there has been some involvement is enough. If you provide assistance in a bank robbery, no matter how small it may seem like, do u think u will be left scot free by the law agencies? Maybe yes, if they corrupted like the vatican. If two versions are differing than we can certainly raise our eyebrows suspiciously and belt the cat's hide.
Anonymous said:
DeleteIt doesn't matter whether the NAB isn't completely catholic.
Of course it does. You don't think the Protestants would have been silent, do you?
The mere fact there has been some involvement is enough. If you provide assistance in a bank robbery, no matter how small it may seem like, do u think u will be left scot free by the law agencies? Maybe yes,…. If two versions are differing than we can certainly raise our eyebrows suspiciously and belt the cat's hide.
There are no significant differences in the two. Otherwise the Church would not have approved the NAB.
slight differences also does matter. It casts a shadow of doubt. It builds up a child of God on a plane of uncertainty.
DeleteThere are slight differences in all Bibles. Even the KJV. The KJV was translated from Greek originals. But it was not the first. And it contained many differences from those that came before.
DeleteCont'd ..
ReplyDeleteThe KJV doesn't have a Mark 19:10. Nor does any other Bible. So I can't comment.
My typing mistake .. I meant Mathew 18:11.
Nope. The Holy Spirit is God therefore can't be the "vicar" of Christ. A vicar is the representative of a superior. Jesus is not greater than the Holy Spirit.
You have got this messed up or you have misunderstood what i meant. The Holy Spirit who is in the earth intercedes on behalf of all born-again Christians till the second coming of Christ. See John 14:26, Acts 1:8. So the Holy Ghost is the comforter to all born-again believers who are a royal priesthood in the body of Christ. The Holy Ghost goes about convicting "sin" and putting God truth in our hearts. BTW Jesus is "God" Himself.
My typing mistake .. I meant Mathew 18:11.
DeleteIf its important to you, then ask the question again.
You have got this messed up or you have misunderstood what i meant.
You are the one who claim the Holy Spirit was the Vicar of Christ.
The Holy Spirit who is in the earth intercedes on behalf of all born-again Christians till the second coming of Christ. See John 14:26, Acts 1:8.
That s correct. But He isn't here as anyone's Vicar. He is here as God, the Third Person of the Holy Trinity.
So the Holy Ghost is the comforter to all born-again believers who are a royal priesthood in the body of Christ. The Holy Ghost goes about convicting "sin" and putting God truth in our hearts. BTW Jesus is "God" Himself.
And the Pope is the Vicar of Christ, god representing God before men, as we discussed earlier. See your own reference to Moses being called god before Pharoa.
The pope is your vicar of Christ and not mine. To qualify as the vicar of Christ, one must be "Holy" without sin. Only God (Jesus) is sinless. God ordained the reference to Moses being called god before pharaoh, but there is no record whatsoever that He ordained the same reference to the pope. As born-again believers, and as royal priests in the body of Christ, we come boldly before God's throne of grace without the need to go through a system of intermediaries.
DeleteThis is how I read the Scripture:
DeleteMatthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Jesus gave Simon His own name, Rock, in order to show that Simon now represents Christ before men.
But let us proceed to prove that Peter represents God.
Is Moses God? Of course not. But what did God say?
Exodus 7 1 And the Lord said to Moses: Behold I have appointed thee the God of Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
Why did God call Moses God? Because He appointed Moses as His representative before Pharoah and the people:
Exodus 19 9 The Lord said to him: Lo, now will I come to thee in the darkness of a cloud, that the people may hear me speaking to thee, and may believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people to the Lord.
And what did God do in the New Testament? God also selected a man to represent Him.
Simon Bar-Jonah.
Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Who is the Rock?
1 Corinthians 10 4 And all drank the same spiritual drink; (and they drank of the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.
Christ is the Rock!
And the Rock turned to Simon and said, "YOU ARE ROCK and on this Rock I will build my Church"
So God gave Simon the name that represents God.
2 Kings 22 2 And he said: The Lord is my rock, and my strength, and my saviour.
Why? Because Simon now represents God before men.
Therefore Jesus also gave Him the keys to the Kingdom:
Matthew 16 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.
Thereby giving Simon the authority to save. He can open and close the door to heaven, therefore, he can save.
And so, the Pope, the successor of Peter, is the representative of God before His People.
All His People. Including you.
Thereby giving Simon the authority to save. He can open and close the door to heaven, therefore, he can save. And so, the Pope, the successor of Peter, is the representative of God before His People.
DeleteThat's according to the fabricated theology of the vatican.
As born-again Christians, we are a royal priesthood in the body of Christ sanctified, justified, washed and saved by the literal precious blood of the Lord Jesus Christ, declared saints and righteous before Almighty God and have the power to come boldly before the throne of grace. We are all "Ambassadors of Christ" and not only the pope.
One example: Didn't pope John Paul II deny that the book of Genesis is a "myth". How can a Representative of God deny the Word of God?
Pope Benedict has also officially made his declaration that evolution is in harmony with the Genesis account when it cannot be. For one, evolution is a "pagan myth" that cannot be in harmony with God's view. Also, in his condemnation of the creationist view or taking Genesis literally, he has once again challenged the infallible Word of God. Is it surprising? Nope not for anybody who's know the facts about the Roman Catholic faith having altered doctrines throughout the centuries. Their doctrines can be seen nothing more than manmade traditions placed above the Word of God (Mark 7:8-9).
Please don't give me sermons on popery madness. I can prove to you that the popes are not the successors of the Apostle Peter.
Can you elaborate what was "that succession" the popes acquired/inherited from Peter?
As you claim that the pope is God's representative on earth, does the pope involve himself in the "Great Commmision" in preaching the Gospel wherever he jets around the world. I certainly don't think so. Instead he calls all worldly religions including witches, black magicians, sorcerers and shares a table with them at the Vatican as part of the sinister ecumenical plan - saying all religions lead to the same God. Does this make sense
DeleteCont'd ..
ReplyDeleteNo thanks. Dispensalionalism is another Protestant invention that has nothing to do with God's word.
It is not a protestant invention but the truth. Let me provide two examples below:
(i)Truth Misplaced, this is a man setting forth genuine Bible truth but seeking to apply that truth to persons to whom it was never directed. For example Hebrew 11 tells us that Noah and his household were saved because they built an ark while the Philipian jailer in Acts 16 was told that he and his household would be saved if they “believed” on the Lord Jesus Christ. If someone were to teach that preparing an ark was a Biblical means of Salvation for a man and his household, he would be speaking the truth. If that man told you and me in this day and age to build an ark that we might be saved, he would be speaking TRUTH MISPLACED, which is of course, error.
(ii) Acts 2:38 - this is the verse the devil likes to use and Catholics misuse it to imply "baptism" saves an person in the New Testament dispensation. Why?? becomes the context of the verse is not taken into account. You will see that this doctrinal error on many catholic websites.
The two examples above proves that "dispensation" is not a protestant invention rather but the truth.
It is not a protestant invention but the truth.
DeleteIt is Protestant invention and a mixture of truth and error.
Let me provide two examples below:
(i)Truth Misplaced, this is a man setting forth genuine Bible truth but seeking to apply that truth to persons to whom it was never directed. For example Hebrew 11 tells us that Noah and his household were saved because they built an ark while the Philipian jailer in Acts 16 was told that he and his household would be saved if they “believed” on the Lord Jesus Christ. If someone were to teach that preparing an ark was a Biblical means of Salvation for a man and his household, he would be speaking the truth. If that man told you and me in this day and age to build an ark that we might be saved, he would be speaking TRUTH MISPLACED, which is of course, error.
Your error is the literal way in which you interpret Scripture. We interpret Scripture according to the Spirit, because the letter killeth (2 Corinthians 3:6).
First, Noah built an Ark to save a remnant of righteous people to survive on this earth. Not for eternity.
Second, The Philipian jailer was told that he and his whole household would be saved, if they believed. But believing entailed Baptism:
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
and obedience unto salvation:
Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Faith alone is dead.
(ii) Acts 2:38 - this is the verse the devil likes to use and Catholics misuse it to imply "baptism" saves an person in the New Testament dispensation. Why?? becomes the context of the verse is not taken into account. You will see that this doctrinal error on many catholic websites.
There is no error in Scripture. Acts 2:38 is the infallible Word of God. The two examples above proves that "dispensation" is not a protestant invention rather but the truth.
On the contrary,
1. it proves that Protestants can't even agree upon their doctrines and what they mean. Dispensationalism as I have ever heard it, has to do with the Rapture. You've not mentioned that at all. Apparently you have a different "dispensation" which you are addressing and you need to define it so that we know what you are talking about.
2. if dispensation has to do with your idea that Noah and his family were saved for eternity by building an Ark, you obviously missed the entire point of the story. Perhaps you forgot that Canaan was cursed because his father slept with his mother, Noah's wife (Gen 9:22-25).
Cont'd ..
ReplyDeleteDispensation is the truth. The OLD TESTAMENT is a covenant or agreement between God and the nation Israel. The NEW TESTAMENT is a covenant or agreement to all (jews/gentiles) who believe through faith by Gods' grace in the finished work of atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ.
John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Anonymous said
DeleteDispensation is the truth. The OLD TESTAMENT is a covenant or agreement between God and the nation Israel.
That is true.
The NEW TESTAMENT is a covenant or agreement to all (jews/gentiles) who believe through faith by Gods' grace in the finished work of atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ.
This is also true. If this is your definition of the dispensation doctrine, then there is no conflict with Catholic doctrine. However, Noah was not saved for eternity because he built an ark. He was saved for eternity because he was righteous in God's eyes.
Thanks.. at least you now agree that dispensation or dispensationalism is truth and not protestant invention as u claimed earlier
Deleteand that we are saved only by faith, by the grace and truth that came by Jesus Christ.(John 1:17) :)
Deleteand that we are not saved by baptism neither the man made sacraments of the CC :))
DeleteI don't know where you got all of that. You changed your explanation of dispensationalism midstream. I agree with the last version.
DeleteAs for the rest, we haven't even discussed them. I thought I already proved to you that faith alone is a false doctrine. Here is the proof:
James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
The Catholic Church does not teach that we are saved by "baptism alone". But it is certainly necessary in obedience to Christ's words:
Mark 16:16
King James Version (KJV)
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
And all the Sacraments are likewise important:
John 14:23
King James Version (KJV)
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Cont'd ...
ReplyDeleteFirst, Jesus did not write a Bible. He established Tradition. Any Bible which is translated without regard to Tradition is therefore crippled.
Jesus came so save that was lost (Mathew 18:11) - the "core" purpose of manifesting Himself as God incarnate in-the flesh and not to establish tradition. He was only against human tradition that exalted above or set aside the Word of God. No Church has authority to change the divine and inspired Word of God to support un-biblical heresies.
Anonymous said:
DeleteJesus came so save that was lost (Mathew 18:11) - the "core" purpose of manifesting Himself as God incarnate in-the flesh and not to establish tradition.
It is by establishing Tradition and a Church to perpetuate that Tradition that Jesus established the mechanism by which Christians would be saved. Baptism and the Sacraments.
He was only against human tradition that exalted above or set aside the Word of God. No Church has authority to change the divine and inspired Word of God to support un-biblical heresies.
That is absolutely true. Now, lets consider your man made tradition of Sola Scriptura which does exactly that. It sets aside the divinely inspired Traditions of Jesus Christ and puts forth human interpretations of Scripture.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Can a church support two versions of the ten commandments (The CCC and the Catholic Bible shows two different versions).
DeleteBaptism and sacraments do not save. Sola Scriptura is purely biblical and not man made tradition. God speaks to us thru the scriptures which is full of truth as God cannot lie or err. I have 100% confidence what the scriptures teaches and it is sufficient in all matters of faith, practice and doctrine. The Bible is able to make us wise for salvation which is by faith in Christ Jesus (2 Timothy 3:15,16) only. The Bible is useful for teaching and correction so that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly furnished for every good work. God's revelation for His Church is fully contained in the Holy Bible and there is no important information missing that we should seek elsewhere. Sola Scriptura is often misunderstood and misrepresented by Catholics.
Anonymous
DeleteCan a church support two versions of the ten commandments (The CCC and the Catholic Bible shows two different versions).
They are one and the same. Read them.
Baptism and sacraments do not save.
Scripture says otherwise:
Mark 16:16
King James Version (KJV)
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Sola Scriptura is purely biblical and not man made tradition.
Prove it from Scripture. Here is what I read:
2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
God speaks to us thru the scriptures which is full of truth as God cannot lie or err.
That is Catholic Teaching.
I have 100% confidence what the scriptures teaches and it is sufficient in all matters of faith, practice and doctrine.
As you should. The problem is that you also have absolute confidence in your own ability to understand the Scriptures. But Scripture says:
Acts 8:27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet. 29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? 31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me?
The Bible is able to make us wise for salvation which is by faith in Christ Jesus (2 Timothy 3:15,16) only.
Read it carefully, the Scriptures are able to make you wise, if someone teaches you. Scripture is profitable for "teaching". And, Scripture says that faith "only" is dead:
James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
The Bible is useful for teaching and correction
Thank you. Therefore, not the Bible alone. But the Bible and the Church which God put here to lead men to the faith.
Matthew 28:20
King James Version (KJV)
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
so that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly furnished for every good work.
Because faith alone is dead. Therefore the man of God is taught to do the works of God.
God's revelation for His Church is fully contained in the Holy Bible and there is no important information missing that we should seek elsewhere. Sola Scriptura is often misunderstood and misrepresented by Catholics.
Sola Scrptura is a false doctrine which contradicts Scripture.
In reference to Mathew 9:13, Jesus himself says he will have mercy, and not sacrifice. So... the sacrifice of the "Catholic Mass is NOT necessary and the catholic priesthood is "kaput".
ReplyDeleteIf your understanding were true, then Jesus would not have died as a sacrifice for our sins.
DeleteBut Jesus sacrifice is the only true Sacrifice and the Catholic Priests offer it perpetually in the Mass.
In response to Baptism and sacraments do not save.
ReplyDeleteScripture says otherwise: Mark 16:16 King James Version (KJV) 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
- Believeth in what?
- so it is clear from Mark 16:16 that a person to be saved needs to genuinely believe to be born again and then afterwards he is baptised by immersion and not by sprinkling on the forehead like it is done in the RCC for babies who are not able to believe because they are below the age of reasoning.
Thank you. Therefore, not the Bible alone. But the Bible and the Church which God put here to lead men to the faith.
The Church has to uphold the truth of the scriptures. Even the CC professes that 'the magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is it's servant. In 1 Timothy 3:14,15, St Paul clearly identifies the church as God's household, and therefore it comprises every true Christian, not only their leaders. The whole church - all Christians - are collectively the pillar and ground of truth.
You will undoubtedly realize why Paul calls the church, and not the Bible, "the pillar and ground" of truth. Being the Word of God, the Bible is not merely "the pillar and ground," but the "truth" itself. Jesus prayed to the Father: "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth" (John 17:17). In other words, the mission of the church is to faithfully uphold, defend and proclaim the teaching of the Bible. One of the identifying mark of the true New Testament church is its faithfulness to the Gospel. A "church" that has departed from the truth and is preaching another "gospel" is an apostate church.
Anonymous said: Believeth in what?
DeleteIn Jesus Christ.
so it is clear from Mark 16:16 that a person to be saved needs to genuinely believe to be born again
A person needs to genuinely believe in Jesus Christ and His saving power before he is born again in Baptism.
and then afterwards he is baptised by immersion and not by sprinkling on the forehead like it is done in the RCC for babies who are not able to believe because they are below the age of reasoning.
Baptism means washing and it can be accomplished by immersion, pouring or sprinkling.
The Church has to uphold the truth of the scriptures.
Absolutely!
Even the CC professes that 'the magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is it's servant.
Amen! The Word of God passed down in Tradition and Scripture (2 Thess 2:15).
In 1 Timothy 3:14,15, St Paul clearly identifies the church as God's household, and therefore it comprises every true Christian, not only their leaders. The whole church - all Christians - are collectively the pillar and ground of truth.
Every word has more than one meaning. In Scripture, Church is used to mean the Magisterium or leadership of the Church (Matt 18:17) and to mean the body of believers (Col 1:24). Church has also come to mean the Church building where the body of believers assemble before the leaders of the Church in order to be fed the Bread of Heaven which grants one eternal life.
You will undoubtedly realize why Paul calls the church, and not the Bible, "the pillar and ground" of truth. Being the Word of God, the Bible is not merely "the pillar and ground," but the "truth" itself. Jesus prayed to the Father: "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth" (John 17:17). In other words, the mission of the church is to faithfully uphold, defend and proclaim the teaching of the Bible. One of the identifying mark of the true New Testament church is its faithfulness to the Gospel. A "church" that has departed from the truth and is preaching another "gospel" is an apostate church.
You are close but not quite correct. The Church teaches the wisdom of God (Ephesians 3:10). By word or epistle (2 Thessalonians 2:15). That means that the Church teaches the Traditions of Jesus Christ and uses the Bible when it is profitable (1 Tim 3:16) in order that the man of God should be perfect in every good work of God because faith alone is dead.
Prove it from Scripture. Here is what I read: 2 Thessalonians 2:15 - Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
ReplyDelete"Tradition" used in 2 Thes 2:15 is not the same as the Roman Catholic Sacred Tradition. Because of propriet RC sacred tradition, the CC now has graven images, obligatory fasting, relics, indulgences, celibate ministry, the sacrifice of the mass, the confessional, purgatory and so on, all of which are absent from the Bible and indeed contradict the plain teachings of Scripture.
Sola Scriptura affirms that all that the Church and every Christian must believe for salvation and godliness is certainly found in the Holy Scriptures. God's revelation for His Church is fully contained in the Holy Bible and there is no important information missing that we should seek elsewhere.
We must also discuss what Sola Scriptura is not, as Catholics confuse sola scriptura.
Sola Scriptura is not a claim that the Bible contains all knowledge. The Bible does not give exhaustive details on the history of redemption, but it does not have to be exhaustive to be the sole rule of faith for the church. There is an argument by Catholics for the need of tradition, saying that Bible does not record everything. Apparently you do not realize that tradition is not exhaustive either! Does tradition give us all possible information about the life of Christ, and all that He said, and all the apostles did and said? Of course not! I ceratinly would like to respectfully challenge Catholic friends to give us one statement that Jesus said that comes to us by tradition and not from the Holy Scripture.
Sola Scriptura is not a denial of the church's authority to teach God's revelation.
The Church is 'the pillar and foundation of the truth' (I Timothy 3:15) because it upholds and teaches the Word of God. However the church cannot add doctrines of human origin or contradict the God-breathed Scriptures. The church's authority is subordinate to the authority of the Bible. Moreover, the church is commissioned to preach the Word orally, and to transmit the Christian Gospel from one generation to the next. The most enthusiastic proponents of sola Scriptura do so eagerly and do their best to make sure that their preaching is consistent with the written Word of God.
Sola Scriptura is not a denial that historically God's Word came in other ways other than the written form. Before writing down His message, God spoke through the apostles and prophets, and personally in Christ Jesus, His Son. During the same time the Holy Spirit moved holy men to write down His Word to be the permanent inspired record of His message for the post-apostolic age till the end. The apostles and prophets are the foundation of the church (Ephesians 2:20) and though they are absent, we can still build our lives on their teaching which is recorded infallibly in the Holy Scriptures.
Sola Scriptura does not imply that the Bible will always be interpreted correctly, or that there will not be differences and heresies among Christians. Jesus was clear enough in His teaching, yet His disciples often misunderstood Him. The apostles' message was also perfectly intelligible, and yet all sorts of errors and heresies crept in the early church. Similarly, the Bible is not written in a mysterious and cryptic code that needs some infallible decoder to explain its hidden meaning. The Bible is addressed to the ordinary people of God and it can be understood. The problem lies not with the clarity of the Bible, but with people who often ignore the Bible or twist the its meaning because of laziness, ignorance and prejudice.
Hello Anonymous,
DeleteFirst, I want to mention that I asked you to prove Sola Scriptura from Scripture. But you did nothing of the kind. You provided all kinds of opinion, but no Scripture.
"Tradition" used in 2 Thes 2:15 is not the same as the Roman Catholic Sacred Tradition.
It is precisely the same. It is Tradition from which the New Testament was written.
2 Pet 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Because of propriet RC sacred tradition, the CC now has graven images,
The People of God have always had graven images. God commanded they be made (Exodus 25:18). God simply forbids worshipping them.
obligatory fasting,
Jesus Himself said we would fast (Matthew 9:15).
relics,
Have you not read the Scripture? Acts 19:12
indulgences,
Do you think Jesus recommended buying your way into heaven?Matthew 19:21
Or what do you think He meant by treasure in heaven? Here's another (Mark 12:43).
celibate ministry,
1 Corinthians 7:32
the sacrifice of the mass,
1 Corinthians 5:7; Luke 22:19
the confessional,
John 20:23
purgatory
1 Cor 3:15
and so on, all of which are absent from the Bible and indeed contradict the plain teachings of Scripture.
It is Protestant doctrines such as Sola Scriptura which contradicts Scripture. Heb 13:7 Sola Scriptura affirms that all that the Church and every Christian must believe for salvation and godliness is certainly found in the Holy Scriptures.
You forgot one word, "only" in Scripture. Otherwise, you have explained Catholic doctrine which teaches that all one must believe in in Scripture either implied or explicit.
However, "sola" means "only". Therefore Protestants claim these truths can "only" be found in Scripture.
God's revelation for His Church is fully contained in the Holy Bible and there is no important information missing that we should seek elsewhere.
But Scripture itself says that you should seek explanations as the Scripture "alone" is not easily understood. Acts 8:30-31; 2 Pet 3:16 We must also discuss what Sola Scriptura is not, as Catholics confuse sola scripture.
Ironically, it is Protestants who confuse Sola Scriptura as I will show you. I've even had Protestants tell me that the definition of Sola Scriptura need not be in Scripture. Of course, at the same time, they want me to produce all Catholic doctrines EXPLICITLY from Scripture.
cont'd
cont'd
DeleteAnonymous also said:
Sola Scriptura is not a claim that the Bible contains all knowledge. The Bible does not give exhaustive details on the history of redemption, but it does not have to be exhaustive to be the sole rule of faith for the church. There is an argument by Catholics for the need of tradition, saying that Bible does not record everything. Apparently you do not realize that tradition is not exhaustive either! Does tradition give us all possible information about the life of Christ, and all that He said, and all the apostles did and said? Of course not! I ceratinly would like to respectfully challenge Catholic friends to give us one statement that Jesus said that comes to us by tradition and not from the Holy Scripture.
That is actually a Protestant straw man argument.
They assume that because the Church keeps Tradition that there are somethings in Tradition which are not in Scripture. But they are wrong. The doctrines implied in Scripture are taught explicitly in Tradition. But they are in Scripture as well. If they weren't there they wouldn't be Cathlic doctrine.
The Church teaches that everything one needs to know for salvation is in Scripture explicit or implied.
However, there are something which come to us from Tradition which are not in Scripture.
For instance, who wrote the Gospel of Mark? Show me from Scripture. You can't. Because it is only in Tradition.
Sola Scriptura is not a denial of the church's authority to teach God's revelation. The Church is 'the pillar and foundation of the truth' (I Timothy 3:15) because it upholds and teaches the Word of God. However the church cannot add doctrines of human origin or contradict the God-breathed Scriptures. The church's authority is subordinate to the authority of the Bible. Moreover, the church is commissioned to preach the Word orally, and to transmit the Christian Gospel from one generation to the next. The most enthusiastic proponents of sola Scriptura do so eagerly and do their best to make sure that their preaching is consistent with the written Word of God.
Which is why you should leave the Protestants behind. They get their own ideas confused with Scripture and begin to pass them off as the Word of God. But they are errors of men.
cont'd
Anonymous said:
DeleteSola Scriptura is not a denial that historically God's Word came in other ways other than the written form. Before writing down His message, God spoke through the apostles and prophets, and personally in Christ Jesus, His Son. During the same time the Holy Spirit moved holy men to write down His Word to be the permanent inspired record of His message for the post-apostolic age till the end. The apostles and prophets are the foundation of the church (Ephesians 2:20) and though they are absent, we can still build our lives on their teaching which is recorded infallibly in the Holy Scriptures.
They may not be here physically. But they are still here spiritually and they left us a heritage, the Church. The Catholic Church. No other Church can be traced to Scripture.
Sola Scriptura does not imply that the Bible will always be interpreted correctly, or that there will not be differences and heresies among Christians. Jesus was clear enough in His teaching, yet His disciples often misunderstood Him. The apostles' message was also perfectly intelligible, and yet all sorts of errors and heresies crept in the early church. Similarly, the Bible is not written in a mysterious and cryptic code that needs some infallible decoder to explain its hidden meaning. The Bible is addressed to the ordinary people of God and it can be understood. The problem lies not with the clarity of the Bible, but with people who often ignore the Bible or twist the its meaning because of laziness,
And this is the difference between us. We believe that Jesus came teaching infallibly and He gave the Church the power to do the same (Matt 28:17-19). And Scripture continually extolls the fact that the Church is the Pillar of Truth (1 Tim 3:15) which will teach the Word of God, even in the heavens (Eph 3:10).
Anonymous said: Believeth in what?
ReplyDeleteIn Jesus Christ.
-so it is clear from Mark 16:16 that a person to be saved needs to genuinely believe to be born again
A person needs to genuinely believe in Jesus Christ and His saving power before he is born again in Baptism.
and then afterwards he is baptised by immersion and not by sprinkling on the forehead like it is done in the RCC for babies who are not able to believe because they are below the age of reasoning.
Baptism means washing and it can be accomplished by immersion, pouring or sprinkling.
The Church has to uphold the truth of the scriptures.
Absolutely!
Even the CC professes that 'the magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is it's servant.
Amen! The Word of God passed down in Tradition and Scripture (2 Thess 2:15).
In 1 Timothy 3:14,15, St Paul clearly identifies the church as God's household, and therefore it comprises every true Christian, not only their leaders. The whole church - all Christians - are collectively the pillar and ground of truth.
Every word has more than one meaning. In Scripture, Church is used to mean the Magisterium or leadership of the Church (Matt 18:17) and to mean the body of believers (Col 1:24). Church has also come to mean the Church building where the body of believers assemble before the leaders of the Church in order to be fed the Bread of Heaven which grants one eternal life.
You will undoubtedly realize why Paul calls the church, and not the Bible, "the pillar and ground" of truth. Being the Word of God, the Bible is not merely "the pillar and ground," but the "truth" itself. Jesus prayed to the Father: "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth" (John 17:17). In other words, the mission of the church is to faithfully uphold, defend and proclaim the teaching of the Bible. One of the identifying mark of the true New Testament church is its faithfulness to the Gospel. A "church" that has departed from the truth and is preaching another "gospel" is an apostate church.
You are close but not quite correct. The Church teaches the wisdom of God (Ephesians 3:10). By word or epistle (2 Thessalonians 2:15). That means that the Church teaches the Traditions of Jesus Christ and uses the Bible when it is profitable (1 Tim 3:16) in order that the man of God should be perfect in every good work of God because faith alone is dead.
AnonymousMay 24, 2012 1:30 PM
ReplyDeleteI have never heard this before and it is mis-understanding on your part.
You're arguing against it right now.
The scripture is clear that only true genuine faith in Christ Jesus will automatically result in obedience and good works.
Really? Let's look at Matt 7:21
Matthew 7:
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
We do not be obedient and do good works to obtain faith.
True. But we are obedient and do good works to obtain salvation. That is the problem with Protestants. They confuse conversion and salvation.
Likewise biblical salvation is by God's grace through faith in Christ Jesus.
Faith is Christ Jesus is by works. Without works there is no faith. Without faith there is no salvation.
Salvation is a free gift (Ephesians 2:8-9), we do not do good works to merit God's free gift of salvation, likewise the CC sacraments are not a "necessity" for salvation.
The Commandments are necessary for salvation since before Christ. And Christ established the Sacraments and they are necessary since the Advent of Christ.
Really? Let's look at Matt 7:21 - Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
ReplyDeleteWhat is the "will of my Father which is heaven"?
Keep the Commandments:
DeleteExodus 20:6
And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
John 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
------------------------------
DeleteThe exact "Will of the Father" we must do to enter heaven, and is the ONLY pre-requisite and is of prime importance superseding everything else, is found in:
John 6:40 - And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Sorry my friend. you are waaaaaaaaaaay of target!! Seek the Lord, your need His righteousness. We cannot enter heaven by any means except "believing" on what John 6:40 says.
I can't stress enough!! The word "believe/believeth occurs a total of 170 times in the KJV Bible - and indicator of its prime importance. It is the "magic" keyword a majority of people are missing. Narrow is the road to Salavtion and a few people find it. The rest go the big way to eternal destruction.
Even Mark 16:16 says it all too loudly - it is "believeth" first and then be Baptized subsequently. We cannot be baptized without believing first.
Sacraments are not needed too. When we are saved, we have to abide in the Word of God and till we depart from this world. That's what Jesus meant - when He said - "Take up your cross and follow me". We "only" have to follow the saviour to live forever. All born-again Christians are "represantatives of God" to take the Gospel to the uttermost parts of the Earth. (Acts 1:8).
I am a Bible believing Chrsitian and I obey on the Word of my Lord as laid down in scripture. I do not need any other "extra" revelations not supported by scripture.
What really suprises me is how people like yourself are barking up the wrong tree.
--------------------
The exact "Will of the Father" we must do to enter heaven, and is the ONLY pre-requisite and is of prime importance superseding everything else, is found in: John 6:40 - And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
DeleteYeah, but you guys interpret "believeth" as mental assent (i.e. faith alone). Whereas, Jesus says else where:
Matthew 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
And there are many other places where Scripture gives strict orders that we must do good works in order to be saved:
Matthew 25:31-46; Romans 2:1-13; 2 Peter 1:5-10; James 1:26-27
And Scripture continually tells us that if we claim to love Jesus but do not keep His Commandments, we are fooling ourselves:
1 John 2:3-4
Sorry my friend.
Thanks for calling me friend, friend.
you are waaaaaaaaaaay of target!! Seek the Lord, your need His righteousness. We cannot enter heaven by any means except "believing" on what John 6:40 says.
Even the demons believe (James 2:19).
We must put our money where our mouth is (Matthew 19:21; Luke 11:41).
We must suffer with Christ (Romans 8:17).
We must be merciful (Matthew 5:7).
We must exercise justice (Matthew 5:6).
and we must be baptized (Mark 16:16).
Faith alone is dead (James 2:24).
I can't stress enough!! The word "believe/believeth occurs a total of 170 times in the KJV Bible - and indicator of its prime importance. It is the "magic" keyword a majority of people are missing. Narrow is the road to Salavtion and a few people find it. The rest go the big way to eternal destruction.
I agree, believing in Christ is the key. But claiming to believe and then saying, "Nuh, He didn't mean that, I don't need to eat of Him in the Eucharist (John 6:53)." "Nuh, I don't need to suffer with Him (1 Peter 2:21).
Your belief, your faith, which denies all these things, is nothing but mental assent. Lip service.
Unless you DO the will of God, you will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
I speak in love.
cont'd
cont'd
DeleteAnonymous said,
Even Mark 16:16 says it all too loudly - it is "believeth" first and then be Baptized subsequently. We cannot be baptized without believing first.
Amen! And you can't be saved without first believing and being baptized, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;…."
Sacraments are not needed too.
Baptism is the first Sacrament needed. And unless you think that you are without sin (1 John 1:10), you will after need Confession (John 20:23), and if you want to abide in Christ to eternity, you will need the Eucharist (John 6:56).
When we are saved, we have to abide in the Word of God and till we depart from this world.
Amen!
That's what Jesus meant - when He said - "Take up your cross and follow me". We "only" have to follow the saviour to live forever. All born-again Christians are "represantatives of God" to take the Gospel to the uttermost parts of the Earth. (Acts 1:8).
Amen!
I am a Bible believing Chrsitian
If you believe the Bible then you need to obey the Church (Matt 18:17).
and I obey on the Word of my Lord as laid down in scripture. I do not need any other "extra" revelations not supported by scripture.
Nor do I. But others do. And if God has willed to send them revelations, who am I to fight with God?
What really suprises me is how people like yourself are barking up the wrong tree.
That is what surprises me of people like you as well. I guess people are full of surprises.
The good news is, if you keep the Commandments you will be saved. Jesus said, Mark 3:27-29. So, as long as you love God and work righteousness, He will save you (Acts 10:33-35).
But if I were you, I would prefer to cash in on Christ's promise, believe and be baptized and you shall be saved. Where believing means more than mere mental assent.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Yeah, but you guys interpret "believeth" as mental assent (i.e. faith alone)...
DeleteIn Mark 1:15, Jesus said - "... the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel."
The biblical meaning of "believe/beliveth" is ... and more..:
1.) Repentance toward God and faith towards our Lord Jesus Christ ONLY.
2.) Take up your cross and follow Christ - Totally surrender to Him ONLY and no one else. For all power, dominion is given unto Him only. For He ONLY is worthy of all worship and praise. He is the ONLY mediator between God and
mankind. He ONLY is the truth, the way and the life. Have a personal relationship with Him ONLY.
3.) Be involved in the "Great Commission", taking the Gospel "good news" to all mankind.
4.) Abide In God's word ONLY. God does not reveal or disclose new revelations in this present age and dispensation. His revelation is complete in the BIBLE. We cannot add or subtract from the Word of God.
5.) Fruits of genuine salvation should make us turn away from sinful life i.e. hate sin completely. As well as total change in a persons life as the Word of God has the ability to transform one's life (titus 3:5).
6.) Believe the Gospel as said in Mark 1:15.
7.) Acknowledging that Jesus is the Christ come in the flesh. And that we have God's assurance of eternal life through Christ Jesus.
8.) That Jesus bore our sins for us on the cross to redeem us from the curse of sin, death and hell. And the sacrifice was once and for all offered to all makind who believe, turn to, and surrender in totality to Christ.
9.) That He rose from the dead on the 3rd day according to the scriptures (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). - the Gospel.
10.) That ONLY Jesus can forgive sin (1 John 1:9).
Cont'd ..
Delete11.) Affirmation that faith in Christ alone is all that is necessary for salvation. The so-called "good" works of men, (Isaiah 64:6), are not only insufficient to save you, but if you ADD works to the Gospel of Christ, the Gospel is no longer
the Gospel and it has no power to save. (Galatians 1).
12.) Belief is more than an affirmation of a set of facts. True belief is a conviction and will ALWAYS produce action. Before we are saved, good works and faith are mortal enemies. (If we add our "good works" to faith, it's not the
Gospel and our faith cannot save us.) After we are saved, good works and faith are inseparable twins. (If there is no evidence of a changed life, then salvation NEVER HAPPENED).
13.) The in-dwelling of Holy Spirit that resides in all true born-again believers, is the author of the divine scriptures who is the Only teacher that teaches us the scriptures and is able to transform us by the word of God.
14.) Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
15.) Love for God and abiding in His Holy Word , Love for bretheren (the saved) and compassion for the un-saved, and love for thy neigbour.
16.) The "Church" or "ecclesia" is a body of "spiritually" born-again belivers called out of this world for God's glory. Christ is the Chief Shepherd, The head and foundation of the Church and all born-again belivers are collectively
members and cornetstones of His body - The Church - to partake in His glory. The New Testament church has its structures clearly defined in the New Testament. It is to be headed by a "pastor" the shepherd of all born-gain
believers. The Gospel is the "glue" that binds the believers and the scriptures alone are necessary "spiritual food" for our souls.
17.) Affirmation that there is only ONE God (in 3 persons) and no one else. And that God (Jesus) is the creator and sustainer of life, author of repentance and salvation, author and finisher of our faith.
18.) That the road to heaven is through JESUS only. That we have no recognition to Gods worshipped by other earthly religions and we cannot share a common table with them.
19.) Endurance in times of joy, hapiness and tribulations, stand fast in the faith in Christ who suffered on our behalf as a subsitute.
20.) Be not confirmed to the world and the lusts thereof. As no flesh can inherit the kingdom of God or can enter heaven if NOT spiritually "born-gain" (As Jesus spoke to Nicodemus). Although in the world, we cannot be of the world.
For anyone is of the world, he/she is the "enemy" of God.
Hi Anonymous,
Deleteyou said:
In Mark 1:15, Jesus said - "... the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel." The biblical meaning of "believe/beliveth" is ... and more..: 1.) Repentance toward God and faith towards our Lord Jesus Christ ONLY.
2.) Take up your cross and follow Christ - Totally surrender to Him ONLY and no one else. For all power, dominion is given unto Him only. For He ONLY is worthy of all worship and praise.
What do you do with 1 Corinthians 11:1 and Heb 13:7? God obviously wants us to have faith in our leaders in the Church.
He is the ONLY mediator between God and mankind.
Jesus is the one who MEDIATED the New Covenant. Like Moses is the one who MEDIATED the Old. But there are many mediators between God and man. Or have you never led others to Christ?
He ONLY is the truth, the way and the life. Have a personal relationship with Him ONLY.
What do you do with your mom and dad, brothers and sisters, husband or wife, sons and daughters, friends and neighbors?
3.) Be involved in the "Great Commission", taking the Gospel "good news" to all mankind.
How do you do that without establishing relationships with people? Why would anyone foliow your faith if they didn't have faith in you?
4.) Abide In God's word ONLY. God does not reveal or disclose new revelations in this present age and dispensation. His revelation is complete in the BIBLE. We cannot add or subtract from the Word of God.
And yet in so saying, you have just violated your own rule. Because Scripture says:
1 Thessalonians 5:18-20
King James Version (KJV)
18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.19 Quench not the Spirit 20 Despise not prophesyings.
5.) Fruits of genuine salvation should make us turn away from sinful life i.e. hate sin completely. As well as total change in a persons life as the Word of God has the ability to transform one's life (titus 3:5).
Genuine salvation is from genuine faith which is accompanied by WORKS. You call them "fruits" as though "works" is a bad word. But "works" is the word in the Bible. There is nothing wrong with good works. Protestants have a legalistic mentality, as though, "if I say "fruits" instead of "works", I'm not working my way to heaven.
6.) Believe the Gospel as said in Mark 1:15.
Are you casting out Matt 25:31-46. What do you do with that?
Matthew 25:45-46
7.) Acknowledging that Jesus is the Christ come in the flesh. And that we have God's assurance of eternal life through Christ Jesus.
And you acknowledge that with "fruits" (wink: works).
8.) That Jesus bore our sins for us on the cross to redeem us from the curse of sin, death and hell. And the sacrifice was once and for all offered to all makind who believe, turn to, and surrender in totality to Christ.
Amen! That we should be washed by His Blood in the Holy Eucharist of which we partake at every Christian Passover. Or how do you wash yourself in His Blood otherwise?
9.) That He rose from the dead on the 3rd day according to the scriptures (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). - the Gospel.
Amen! And gives us assurance of our resurrection in the Sacraments.
10.) That ONLY Jesus can forgive sin (1 John 1:9).
And does so through His Church and His Priests in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. 2 Corinthians 5:18
Anonymous also said:
Delete11.) Affirmation that faith in Christ alone is all that is necessary for salvation. The so-called "good" works of men, (Isaiah 64:6), are not only insufficient to save you, but if you ADD works to the Gospel of Christ, the Gospel is no longer the Gospel and it has no power to save. (Galatians 1).
But if you add "fruits" the Gospel remains the Gospel and does not lose power? Tell me then, what is the difference between what you call "fruits" and what Scripture calls "works"? They are still additions to faith and salvation will not occur without them.
12.) Belief is more than an affirmation of a set of facts. True belief is a conviction and will ALWAYS produce action.
Thank you. You have just confirmed the Catholic doctrine of faith AND works. err "fruits".
Before we are saved, good works and faith are mortal enemies.
I'm sorry. But that is simply funny, hilarious even.
a. There is no salvation without faith.
b. There is no faith without works.
(If we add our "good works" to faith, it's not the Gospel and our faith cannot save us.)
It is precisely the opposite. Read the Scripture:
James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
If you do not add works to your faith, your faith can't save you.
After we are saved, good works and faith are inseparable twins. (If there is no evidence of a changed life, then salvation NEVER HAPPENED).
If there is no evidence of a changed life, FAITH never happened. In order to be justified, you must persevere in this changed life, providing evidence of faith until the end. Adding works to faith, until the end (Romans 2:7).
13.) The in-dwelling of Holy Spirit that resides in all true born-again believers, is the author of the divine scriptures who is the Only teacher that teaches us the scriptures and is able to transform us by the word of God.
That isn't what the Holy Spirit teaches us in Scripture. He says:
Hebrews 13:7; Matthew 28:20; Acts 18:11
14.) Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
These new things are demonstrated in works of faith:
Eph 4:
20 But ye have not so learned Christ;21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:27 Neither give place to the devil.28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
cont'd
cont'd
DeleteAnonymous also said:
15.) Love for God and abiding in His Holy Word , Love for bretheren (the saved) and compassion for the un-saved, and love for thy neighbor.
Amen! John 14:21
16.) The "Church" or "ecclesia" is a body of "spiritually" born-again belivers called out of this world for God's glory. Christ is the Chief Shepherd, The head and foundation of the Church and all born-again belivers are collectively
Christ is the cornerstone. But He established the Church on the Rock, Simon Bar-Jona, whom He gave His own name, "Rock". And upon the foundation of the Apostles. These are the leaders of Christ's "Corporation", "Body". And they setablished more leaders and so on and so forth until to day.
members and cornetstones of His body - The Church - to partake in His glory. The New Testament church has its structures clearly defined in the New Testament. It is to be headed by a "pastor" the shepherd of all born-gain believers.
Whom we now call the Pope.
The Gospel is the "glue" that binds the believers and the scriptures alone are necessary "spiritual food" for our souls.
And what do you do with that Church who wrote the New Testament and canonized the Old? Without which you would have no Scriptures today? Truly you have a weird religion which claims to believe Scripture but disbelieves what Scripture says. And Scripture is plain:
1 Tim 3:15; Eph 3:10
17.) Affirmation that there is only ONE God (in 3 persons) and no one else. And that God (Jesus) is the creator and sustainer of life, author of repentance and salvation, author and finisher of our faith.
Amen! That is Catholic Teaching. Taught in Tradition, recorded in Scripture and elaborated in more detail in Conciliar doctrines.
18.) That the road to heaven is through JESUS only. That we have no recognition to Gods worshipped by other earthly religions and we cannot share a common table with them.
Because we have an Altar upon which no one can eat but he who participates in the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Heb 13:10
Cont'd
19.) Endurance in times of joy, hapiness and tribulations, stand fast in the faith in Christ who suffered on our behalf as a substitute.
DeleteAnd do not neglect it. Heb 10:25-31
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
20.) Be not confirmed to the world and the lusts thereof. As no flesh can inherit the kingdom of God or can enter heaven if NOT spiritually "born-gain" (As Jesus spoke to Nicodemus). Although in the world, we cannot be of the world.
I agree. Now read the Scripture:
Revelation 22:
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
For anyone is of the world, he/she is the "enemy" of God.
Absolutely true. Now read the Scripture:
Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
True. But we are obedient and do good works to obtain salvation. That is the problem with Protestants. They confuse conversion and salvation
ReplyDeleteCatholic false teaching that ties all catholics in bondage. Salvation is a "gift of God" the moment a person places his genuine trust or believes "solely" on the metirious and finished work of atonement of Christ on the cross (Ephesians 2:8-9). That is true biblical salvation. We cannot work to obtain salvation. No Church can dispense salvation. Salvation is an personal event that takes occurs in a persons life the moment he believes he is a sinner, believes God sent his only begotten Son (John 3:16), believes Jesus is God incarnate in the flesh, Believes Jesus died to redeem him from the curse of sin, death and hell, believes Jesus shed his literal precious blood, suffered death, was buried and risen on the 3rd day according to the scripture - the Gospel. The Believer that very moment is convicted by the in-dwelling Holy Spirit, sins totally forgiven, placed into the body of Christ, made a said and child of God, sanctified, justified and preserved now and forever. This the genuine confidence i have in what my saviour Jesus did for me as my subsitute. For I am not ashamed to own my Lord or to defend His cause. Period.
Catholic false teaching that ties all catholics in bondage. Salvation is a "gift of God" the moment a person places his genuine trust or believes "solely" on the metirious and finished work of atonement of Christ on the cross (Ephesians 2:8-9). That is true biblical salvation.
DeleteTrue Biblical Salvation is explained in Scripture plainly:
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
We cannot work to obtain salvation.
That is true. But those who do not keep the Commandments will not go to heaven. Period.
Revelation 22:13-15
King James Version (KJV)
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
No Church can dispense salvation.
Except the Church which was built by Jesus Christ:
Matthew 18:18
King James Version (KJV)
18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
John 20:23
Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
Salvation is an personal event that takes occurs in a persons life the moment he believes he is a sinner, believes God sent his only begotten Son (John 3:16), believes Jesus is God incarnate in the flesh, Believes Jesus died to redeem him from the curse of sin, death and hell, believes Jesus shed his literal precious blood, suffered death, was buried and risen on the 3rd day according to the scripture - the Gospel. The Believer that very moment is convicted by the in-dwelling Holy Spirit, sins totally forgiven, placed into the body of Christ, made a said and child of God, sanctified, justified and preserved now and forever. This the genuine confidence i have in what my saviour Jesus did for me as my subsitute. For I am not ashamed to own my Lord or to defend His cause. Period.
If you believe, you must obey. Jesus only saves those who obey Him:
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Romans 2:13
King James Version (KJV)
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified
Sincerely,
De Maria
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteLet’s start with your star-studded reference to 1 Timothy 4:14, as if merely mentioning the “presbytery” somehow solidifies a sacrosanct ministerial priesthood in today’s Catholic Church. Bravo! But let’s take a step back. Just because Timothy was instructed not to neglect the gift he received doesn’t specify the exact nature or hierarchy of that ministry. Context, my dear friend! Historical context is everything. The early Church was a far cry from the tightly organized structure of today’s Catholic hierarchy. So, magnifying this verse into the foundation of a clerical oligarchy feels like a theological stretch worthy of an Olympic gymnast.
ReplyDeleteNow, your shiny argument about Romans 15:16 insists that the ministry of the gospel requires a priestly service. But here’s the rub: Paul’s rhetoric often emphasized a priesthood of all believers. The New Testament paints a picture of every Christian taking part in the ministry—not segregating roles into priestly and non-priestly, like a religious caste system. The idea of believers collectively serving as ministers of the gospel considerably undermines your depiction of a singular ordained priesthood. It’s almost as if you’ve overlooked the radical democratization of faith ushered in by Jesus!
Ah, and next, we arrive at your passionately crafted lineage of priesthood, linking it back through the centuries to ancient Christian faiths inheriting this supposed legacy from the apostles. How quaint! But let’s not close our eyes to history’s messy reality. Traditions are like living things; they evolve, grow, and sometimes decay, depending on the context and culture. Just because something has been practiced doesn’t guarantee it originates from divine intent—sometimes it simply reflects human adaptation. Your nostalgia for a bygone priestly elegance overlooks how, in many ways, those traditions may deter genuine spiritual engagement.
When we move to your interpretation of the disciples working on the Sabbath, stating that they are equivalent to Levites because of their guiltlessness, it’s simply delightful. Ah! But you seem to miss the point entirely. Jesus wasn't laying down a new hierarchical structure. He was challenging the legalistic interpretations of the law by promoting mercy over sacrifice. Elevating priests to new heights of sanctity through flawed logic seems almost… well, elitist, don’t you think? Perhaps the real takeaway here is that Jesus liberated people from stringent rules rather than instituting another layer of them.
Then there’s your tasty nugget about the Old Covenant serving as a shadow for the New. Yes, yes, poetic! But framing the New Testament’s Shadow as evidence of an ongoing ministerial priesthood feels a bit like building a castle in the air. The reality is much grittier; many Christians interpret the New Covenant as rendering the previous sacrificial system obsolete. The priests of old were indeed part of a system, but your insistence that this invariably leads to a need for a modern priesthood overlooks how Christ’s sacrifice fundamentally transformed our relationship with God. It’s not about hierarchical rituals anymore but rather direct access to the divine!
ReplyDeleteAnd then, oh my stars! Your passion for “Tradition” as the ultimate proof of your claims. It’s like watching someone brandish a magic wand and hope it works. Yes, traditions can be meaningful—but let’s not pretend they are beyond reproach. When you insist on the historical precedents of priestly roles, remember that Protestantism’s critique of these practices stems not from ignorance but a desire to highlight a personal relationship with God, independent of hierarchical demands. Tradition can be comforting, but it can also be a smokescreen for maintaining power dynamics that don’t serve the root of Christian spirituality.
Your semantic gymnastics further lead us to the delightful assertion that “presbyter” and “priest” connote the same essence. Ah, but language is a slippery thing! What you conveniently overlook is how terms evolve in meaning over time. The early church employed various titles, and while presbyter did indeed refer to church leaders, one could just as easily argue that it meant "elder" in a purely community-centered sense, devoid of any priestly connotations. Without the context of post-apostolic developments and cultural shifts, your conflation of terms feels more like wishful thinking than an ironclad argument.
Now your claim that since Protestant pastors function similarly to priests but shun the title exposes a rather humorous contradiction in your reasoning. While it’s true many Protestant clergy perform roles akin to ministers of the faith, you’re inadvertently highlighting a divide in understanding the essence of what it means to serve others in Christ’s name. The lack of a rigid hierarchical structure doesn't imply a lack of value or function; in fact, it often enhances community engagement and personal accountability in a way that a rigid priesthood may not.
And bless your heart for trotting out the tradition of celibacy like it’s some divine mandate! The very idea that Jesus or Paul’s choice to remain single should translate into a universal discipline seems devoid of understanding human experience. The only thing more ironic than a celibate priesthood is measuring holiness by marital status in a world that thrives on diverse expressions of love and service. We find grace in many forms, so who’s to elevate one choice over another?
ReplyDeleteYou end with a flourish about the “SOURCE AND SUMMIT” of faith encapsulating the Holy Eucharist as a sacrifice, and while it’s a lovely poetic sentiment, it’s steeped in a theological framework that doesn't resonate with all Christians. Many see the Eucharist as a communal celebration of Christ’s presence rather than as merely another sacrifice. The notion that continual sacrifice is necessary echoes a transactional view of God that some find troubling.
So, my dear friend, your impassioned defense of the ministerial priesthood might make for a captivating discussion among like-minded souls, but the broader conversation about faith, grace, and community goes well beyond the confines of a strictly defined hierarchy. Perhaps the next time you gather your thoughts, you might consider opening the dialogue to embrace a bit more nuance and a bit less dogma. After all, in the intricate dance of faith, there’s room for all sorts, and isn’t that what Jesus was all about?