Hi Russell,
You said,
ROMANS 2:13 AND CONTEXT
Let's to do it.
(Last Updated 10-16-12)For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. (Romans 2:13)In the Sola Fide (“faith alone”) debate, Catholic apologists will often insist that the verse above strongly indicates that a person is saved by good works, along with faith in Jesus Christ.
That's a misunderstanding. The Catholic Church teaches that:
CHAPTER VIII HOW THE GRATUITOUS JUSTIFICATION OF THE SINNER BY FAITH IS TO BE UNDERSTOODBut when the Apostle says that man is justified by faith and freely,[44] these words are to be understood in that sense in which the uninterrupted unanimity of the Catholic Church has held and expressed them, namely, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God[45] and to come to the fellowship of His sons; and we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification.
The Catholic Church teaches that those who obey God are saved by God's grace. We do not save ourselves either by our faith or our works or by our faith and works.
However, no one who does not do the works of God because of his faith in God will be saved by God.
In their zeal to promote a “faith plus works” system of salvation, Catholics will often use this verse, but overlook or ignore its context.
The one ignoring the context is you, Russell. Look at your next sentence. Do you really claim to be viewing this verse in context but you ignore everything that preceded it?
But what is the context of this passage? Starting from verse 12 to the end of the chapter, the phrase “the law” is clearly speaking of the Mosaic Law…
I think its talking about the law written in the heart of man. But let us look first at the context which preceded it.
If we go back to Rom 1:17-19, he says that no man has an excuse for being unrighteous:
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Now, if we read further, we see that he condemns all who sin against the Commandments. Look at verses Rom 1:25-32. That is a list of sins against the Commandments of God.
This is what precedes Rom 2. But we are speaking about Rom 2:13. And you claim it is about the Mosaic Law. But Chapter 1 is about the Natural Law. The Commandments written in a man's heart. Now, let's skip to the verse after Rom 2:13:
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
So, that should be proof that the context is about the Natural Law. The Law written in man's hearts.
But it is also about the Mosaic Law, because it is also about the Jews. St. Paul is speaking to and about Jews and Gentiles.
But let's see what he says in the verses from Rom 2:1-12:
Romans 2King James Version (KJV)
In this section, he is speaking about judging wrongly. But he is also speaking about good deeds. About keeping the Commandments. And about the reward which God will give to those who keep doing good works without tiring. Here it is:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
God will give glory, honor, immortality and eternal life to those who patiently continue in good works.
What does he say next? Well, he says that those who do not do good and refuse to obey His word, will be rewarded with tribulation and wrath. In other words, they will be condemned to hell.
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
But, to EVERY MAN who does good. Whether Jew or Gentile, He will grant glory, honor and peace.
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Because God doesn't respect persons. St. Peter says the same thing very succinctly in another place:
Acts 10:33-35King James Version (KJV)
What else does St. Paul say?
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
In my opinion, he is here making reference to the written law. Gentiles did not have the written law. Therefore if they sinned without the written law, they will perish or be condemned to hell without it. Because they have it written in their hearts. See verse 14.
But the Jews will be judged by the law which they transgressed. The written law.
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Now, the verse in question. It is very clear. Hearers of the law. Those who know the law which God prescribes but refuse to keep it, will not be justified by God.
But those who do the law, whether it is the law in their hearts or the written law in the Commandments, will be justified by God.
Verses 14 and 15 confirm what I have just said.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: that is, the law that God handed down to Moses to give to the Jews. But do Catholics really want to claim that it is the Mosaic Law that justifies a person? Is it really doing the works of the Mosaic Law that causes a person to be saved? That is certainly not what the Catholic Church teaches (CCC #1963). But that is the conclusion that the Catholic must come to, if using this verse to deny “faith alone,” and he will end up contradicting his own church’s teachings.
On the contrary. That is the classic straw man which you must come to in order to pretend to argue against the Catholic Teaching. But as you have admitted yourself, that which you are arguing against is not the Catholic Teaching.
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Ok, so what does Romans 2:13 really mean if the works of the law don’t save us? The context is about the Jews proudly possessing the law, but they didn’t keep the law. The Apostle Paul is telling certain Jews, “You are just a ‘hearer’, so how does the law help you there? You will not escape punishment.”
Wrong. See above.
The emphasis is NOT that certain types of works will save;
That is your straw man. The Catholic Church teaches that those who keep the law are saved by God. Not that anyone is saved by certain kinds of works.
the emphasis is that God is impartial when it comes to punishing sin, whether committed by Jew or Gentile.
True.
And Paul goes on to say that we’ve all sinned, and all stand guilty before God.
You need to read in context of all of Scripture. Because St. Paul also says:
Romans 5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
In a nutshell, that says that not everyone has sinned.
So, what’s a sinner to do?
Repent and turn to God. That is possibly the most prevalent message of Scripture.
Should he find a new category of good works to try to live up to?
The Commandments, the works which God has ordained from the beginning are sufficient for us:
1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
No, indeed. Because of man’s sin nature, the law (actually, any law of works) is not sufficient as a means of justification.
True. They must be works which are produced from the faith one has in God. Even then, they don't justify. It is God who justifies the faithful who do the works He ordained from the beginning.
Paul goes on for another two chapters, telling us that NO ONE (except for Jesus), neither Jew nor Gentile, has ever kept the law according to God’s standard (which is perfection – Galatians 3:10-12; 5:3; James 2:10).
No he doesn't. You read that into the Scripture because you want to prove a certain point. But if that were true, then Scripture would contradict itself:
Luke 1:6King James Version (KJV)
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
So no one has a perfect record.
And yet Scripture says that some do.
That’s the whole point that Paul is building up to, and that is why God lumps us all together in sin (Romans 3:19; 11:32; Galatians 3:22). But God mercifully gives man a way out… and this way is by faith in Christ, apart from works of the law (Romans 3:28).
Which is actually a reference to the Sacraments. Wherein, those who keep the Commandments are justified of our sins according to our faith in God.
The "doers" in Romans 2:13 are not justified because they are following the law... they are following the law because they are justified; and they are justified by faith (and not works), as Paul will soon demonstrate.
That's not what the verse says. Read it in context. Those who are just in the eyes of God are those who keep His Law.
In justification, God gives a man a new heart and gives him the desire to obey Him.
True. But only after that man has turned to God in faith.
You see, the Apostle Paul is building his case here a step at a time. His argument is progressive (i.e., proceeding point by point in a certain order).
Agreed. But you have misunderstood his point at each step.
In Romans chapter 1, Paul speaks of the guilt and sinfulness of the Gentiles.
He also speaks of the law in their hearts and how they are inexcusable for their sins.
In chapter 2, he demonstrates that the Jews are just as guilty of sin, as well. But the specific context of “how a man is saved / justified” comes later on, starting at about chapter 3, verse 20.
Nope. It is spoken of throughout.
But his argument in Romans 2 doesn’t stop at verse 13. Paul concludes his argument at 3:28 (“Therefore, we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law”) and he then fully discusses this concept in chapter 4.
The problem is that you have cast out the Traditions of Jesus Christ and therefore are reading the Scriptures in a void. If you understood the Traditions of Jesus Christ, you would understand the New Testament because it is upon those Traditions that the New Testament is based.
Romans 4, below, is actually a confirmation of the doctrine of faith AND works. But your tradition has twisted the Scriptures beyond recognition, therefore you don’t understand what you are reading.
Romans 4: 1: What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2: For if Abraham were justified by works,
First off, the Church does not teach justification by works “alone”. But by faith and works.
And that is only a “manner of speaking”. Because in reality, we are not justified by faith and works. But those who do the works of God are justified in His eyes.
Romans 2:13
King James Version (KJV)
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
King James Version (KJV)
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Do you understand? We don’t justify ourselves by faith or works. God justifies those who obey Him and do the works of the Law. God justifies. We don’t.
1994 Justification is the most excellent work of God’s love made manifest in Christ Jesus and granted by the Holy Spirit.….
he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
That is true. And it is again, the Teaching of the Church. That is, in fact, why works are so important:
Philippians 2:11-13
King James Version (KJV)
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. 12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Philippians 2:11-13
King James Version (KJV)
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. 12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
We work out our salvation because it is God working through us.
If we are not doing good works then God is not in us.
3: For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
This is an awesome Scripture which you have to follow throughout the pages of the venerable book in order to understand its true meaning. Study and show yourself approved! These words were first stated by Moses in Genesis 15:6. And they are explained in the book of St. James.
James 2: 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Did you notice that? The words, “Was not Abraham our father justified by works,….”
Was that by works or by faith? By works. When? When did this take place?
“when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?”
But you object? Pull up any Bible that you want, there it is in black and white. He was justified by faith AND WORKS.
You still object? Then explain this. If Abraham was justified by FAITH ALONE in Gen 15:6, or at anytime, why was he not justified back in Genesis 12:1-5? Because, you see, that is when St. Paul says is his first recorded action in faith.
Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
So, then, if Abraham were ever justified by faith alone, it should have been in Genesis 12. But since he first had to obey God’s commands and thus add works to his faith and thereby make his faith perfect, he was not justified by faith alone.
As you can see, Protestant theology has taken that verse completely out of context. But it is necessary that they do so in order to confound the populace. Because it is true that the Reformation stands or falls with the doctrine of justification by faith alone. And that doctrine never had legs. Therefore, they must confuse and contort the Scriptures in order to keep you in bondage to their lies.
4: Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Again, this is a reference to the Jew. Him that worketh. The Old Covenant.
But reckoned of grace is about the Sacramental System which Christ installed. Wherein, we, the laborers who were found late in the evening, are paid the same coin. We are saved in this life and walk with the Saints on Mount Sion.
But reckoned of grace is about the Sacramental System which Christ installed. Wherein, we, the laborers who were found late in the evening, are paid the same coin. We are saved in this life and walk with the Saints on Mount Sion.
And it is in the Sacraments, that we are justified by faith APART FROM WORKS. Baptism is the work of God. Not of man. Burn that into your brain. Justification, the washing away of man’s sins, is done in Baptism. No man can do that. God alone can do that.
5: But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
That is us. We who believe in Christ and obey His every word:
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
We are saved according to our faith. A faith which is expressed in works:
Galatians 5:6
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Galatians 5:6
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Let me explain further. We are saved ACCORDING to our faith. Which is expressed in works. But we are neither saved by our faith or by our works. Except in a manner of speaking. Because without either or both, we are not saved. God, in His mercy, saves those who by their faith act out in love.
6: Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7: Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8: Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
King David is one of the circumcision. And he is making reference to one specific incidence in his life. His adulterous affair with Bathsheba and resulting murder of her husband. David repented. God forgave David. But all David did was ask forgiveness through God’s representative. Yeah. Just like we do in the Sacrament of Confession. God made his repentance known to the Prophet Nathan. And it is Nathan who advised him of God’s forgiveness.
Therefore, this confirms that this is a reference to the Sacraments. God washing away our sin, in the action of the Holy Spirit, when we repent of our sins before the priest (Heb 13:17).
9: Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10: How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
He is still explaining the same idea. The Sacramental idea. David represents the circumcision. But the New Covenant now includes the Gentiles. The uncircumcision. Abraham was not yet circumcised and had not yet offered Isaac upon the altar when his righteousness was first mentioned.
I highlight the word, first, because justification is a process. And apart from his works, Moses, inspired of the Holy Spirit, declares that Abraham is just in the eyes of God.
Abraham was called out of Ur in Gen 12. By faith, he obeyed.
He was first declared righteous in Gen 15:6.
And his righteousness was tested and confirmed in Gen 22.
He was first declared righteous in Gen 15:6.
And his righteousness was tested and confirmed in Gen 22.
That’s a process. Not a one time event.
11: And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
This is a reference to us. We who come from the pagan and gentile nations. He is our father also because God made the Covenant with him before he was circumcised. Circumcision was a sign of the Covenant. But God had declared him righteous before he was circumcised. And he was circumcised because of his righteousness.
12: And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 13: For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14: For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15: Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
We need to look at Scripture more closely to see what St. Paul means here:
Genesis 26:5
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
The Commandments had not yet been written in stone when Abraham obeyed God’s commandments. Obviously, then, the Commandments existed although they were not written on a physical media. The Law has always existed. But it is in the heart of man.
That is what he means by, “where no law is”. If the law did not exist, God would not have destroyed the world in the Flood.
So, what does St. Paul mean in this verse? He means that the Jews kept the law BY FAITH. The Commandments are there to test the faith of man. This is why they continue to be essential to the Faith of Christ. People who do not keep the Commandments, have no faith in Christ.
1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
Therefore all who are of Christ, are His by faith. And all who live by faith are the seed of Abraham. That is what St. Paul is saying. Jew or Gentile, who keeps the Commandments because of their faith, is a child of Abraham, a child of the promise.
16: Therefore it is of faith,
There, you see. That is the conclusion to which we must arrive. It is of faith. Those who keep the Commandments do so, of faith. But there is more to that verse, so I only took it apart so you could see the conclusion of the previous idea. It also begins a separate idea which I will explain.
16: Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace;
You see, faith is the first grace which we receive. It is the prevenient grace of God, which we receive without any merit of our own.
to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Which confirms what I said above.
17: (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Remember the verse that says, “justifieth the ungodly”. That is what it is referring to, “quickeneth the dead”.
18: Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19: And being not weak in faith,
Being not weak in faith, what did he do? Did he say, “Oh, I know you can do it God!” No. He, himself, entered into his wife in the physical, matrimonial sense and they bore a son. Even though they were both well beyond their child bearing years.
he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara’s womb: 20: He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 21: And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
There, you see? By his strong faith, he acted. He worked.
22: And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
And so, St. Paul has also explained that verse to you. By faith, he worked and THEREFORE, it was counted to him for righteousness.
23: Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24: But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25: Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
And St. Paul continues. It was not written for Father Abraham alone. But for us, that we, acting in faith, may be made just in the eyes of God.
But you cannot go backwards by starting with 3:28 and conclude with 2:13… 2:13 is NOT a conclusion, and 2:13 is not Paul’s main point in chapter 2 and following. Again, he is advancing his argument from one point to the next and (for it to make sense) one must follow the sequence.
What he has done is advanced to the New Testament where we are now saved in the Sacraments.
Is this the only place that Paul uses this type of progressive argument? Not at all. In the same way, Paul argues in Romans chapters 9 through 11 that God has not rejected His people, Israel. One may read in this passage that the Jews have “not attained to the law of righteousness” (9:31), that they “stumbled” over Jesus Christ (9:32-33), and have been a “disobedient and gainsaying [contradicting] people” who have rejected God’s outstretched hand (10:21). But these passages cannot be considered a “conclusion,” because Paul’s argument does not stop with these. He goes on to say that this is not their end. This is only a “partial hardening” and is only temporary, because Israel will ultimately be saved (11:25-27). If the sequence of Romans 9-11 is ignored, then one could mistakenly think that God is through with Israel.
I agree that St. Paul is making a progressive argument. But I don't agree with your conclusion.
The point is simply that it is important to recognize when a Bible writer is using such a “progressive” argument, as Paul does in Romans 2 (and following), lest we miss the whole point. And of course, determining the proper context is always essential. Otherwise, one can fall victim to distorted interpretations, as many Catholics do here.
You mean as many Protestants do. The Catholic Church teaches the correct understanding.
As we have said before on this blog, good works are certainly God’s will for us and we should be doing them. We will get rewards for our good works (which are done in the right spirit) when we get to Heaven. But we do them out of love and gratitude toward God… we don’t do them to be saved. We are only saved by faith / trusting in the work of Jesus Christ on the cross, and ONLY that work.
It doesn't matter whether you do them to be saved or not. But if you don't do them you won't be saved.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Hello De Maria,
ReplyDeleteI will only respond to your final comment, which I believe sums up your thoughts. I find this comment very revealing, because it strongly suggests that something is wrong / deficient with your relationship with God.
I had said in my article:
“As we have said before on this blog, good works are certainly God’s will for us and we should be doing them. We will get rewards for our good works (which are done in the right spirit) when we get to Heaven. But we do them out of love and gratitude toward God… we don’t do them to be saved. We are only saved by faith / trusting in the work of Jesus Christ on the cross, and ONLY that work.”
And your direct response to that was:
“It doesn't matter whether you do them to be saved or not. But if you don't do them you won't be saved.”
In other words, you’re implying that it doesn’t matter what’s in your HEART, i.e., whether you do works to be saved or not, or whether they are done simply out of gratitude and love for God… just as long as you do the works. But if it doesn’t matter *WHY* you’re doing them, then you’re simply engaging in DEAD works.
This suggests that your concept of serving God is more about following a formula, or set of laws, rather than having an actual relationship with Him.
De Maria, I’m not claiming to know exactly what’s in your heart. But your remarks above do reveal a serious problem with the mindset of many, if not most, Catholics: It is a mindset that is trapped in the bondage of a works-based salvation.
But the fact is that it DOES matter if you do works to get saved or not. Because one who adds his good works to the cross, with the intention of somehow “contributing to” his salvation, is now severed from Christ and has fallen from grace. (Galatians 5:4)
Hello De Maria,
DeleteHi Russell,
I will only respond to your final comment, which I believe sums up your thoughts. I find this comment very revealing, because it strongly suggests that something is wrong / deficient with your relationship with God.
It is Protestant theology which preaches a deficient relationship with God.
….In other words, you’re implying that it doesn’t matter what’s in your HEART, i.e., whether you do works to be saved or not, or whether they are done simply out of gratitude and love for God… just as long as you do the works. But if it doesn’t matter *WHY* you’re doing them, then you’re simply engaging in DEAD works.
First. Dead works are equivalent to sins. Let me show you.
Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
We repent from sins. Therefore, dead works are sins. And sins are transgressions of the law. That is the definition of sin:
1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Second: Good deeds are deeds which are done as a product of faith. That is why Scripture says:
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Therefore, it doesn't matter if a man does a good deed because he has faith that God will save him as a result. Or if he does it simply because he loves God. In both cases, the good works are products of that man's faith in God. And God is a rewarder of all who diligently seek Him. That is why Scripture also says:
Romans 2
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life. This suggests that your concept of serving God is more about following a formula, or set of laws, rather than having an actual relationship with Him.
It is both. Jesus gave us the formula for having a loving relationship with God:
John 14
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Is it my fault or the fault of the Catholic Church that you and the rest of the Protestants refuse to believe the Word of Jesus Christ?
De Maria, I’m not claiming to know exactly what’s in your heart. But your remarks above do reveal a serious problem with the mindset of many, if not most, Catholics: It is a mindset that is trapped in the bondage of a works-based salvation.
It is the Protestant faith alone mindset which is deadset against the Word of God:
James 2:
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
cont'd
cont'd
DeleteBut the fact is that it DOES matter if you do works to get saved or not. Because one who adds his good works to the cross, with the intention of somehow “contributing to” his salvation, is now severed from Christ and has fallen from grace. (Galatians 5:4)
That is not what that verse means.
Galatians 5:
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
First he contrasts the New Testament of Jesus Christ to the Law of Moses. Not the Ten Commandments, lest you be confused. But the ordinances which Moses attached to the Ten Commandments.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Although the covenant of Circumcision began with Abraham. It is also one of the ordinances of the Mosaic law and has been annulled by Jesus Christ. It is however, the sign of the yoke of bondage. It is the sign of the Mosaic covenant. That is why he frequently calls them the Circumcision.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
When he says the "whole" law, he means the hundreds of ordinances which Christ nailed to the Cross.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Therefore, he says, if you are trying to keep these ordinances, then Christ died in vain for you. Because Christ died to annull these ordinances.
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
"Through the Spirit" means by Baptism. Because it is in Baptism that the Spirit washes us of our sins. And it is by this washing that we can hope in becoming righteous as God is righteous. And how do we do that? By doing the works which God appointed for us to do:
'1 John 3:
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Did you get that? The most important thing in the faith of Jesus Christ, the most important thing in Christianity, the most important thing in the New Creation, is faith which works by love. NOT FAITH ALONE.
Therefore, you have misunderstood Gal 5:4. And because of that misunderstanding which has been taught you by the Protestants, it is your relationship with God which is deficient.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Hi De Maria,
ReplyDeleteFirst, my apologies for double-posting this comment. I accidently posted my comment above on your “Do We Reap What We Sow” article, elsewhere on your blog, when I meant to only post it here. I was hoping that you would delete it from there, so that it does not cause confusion for anyone.
You said that dead works are simply an “equivalent” to sin. But you’re acting as though “dead works” is just another term for sin, in general. It is not. They are indeed sinful works, but dead works include those done before salvation in trying to appease God (or soothe one’s conscience) apart from a changed heart, and it also includes those works that one does after salvation that are not acceptable to God, which would certainly include trying to “earn” salvation (even if only partially).
Remember the Pharisees in Matthew 6 who were doing good deeds, but did them for the wrong reasons? For example, giving alms (6:1-2), praying (6:5-6), and fasting (6:16) are all good works that we should do, but the Pharisees’ MOTIVE was wrong. So, their only reward was the satisfying of their selfish desire to be noticed by men. They got no reward from God for doing these works, because these were dead works. They were either done apart from faith, or done for the wrong reason.
So, saying that “it doesn’t matter WHY you do a good work, as long as you do the work,” is saying that God doesn’t care what’s in your heart. And that’s absolutely false.
You can “void” what would otherwise be a good work, by not doing this work in the right spirit / attitude. This would be a dead (and useless) work. If you are not serving God FROM THE HEART, you are not serving God. Even your “good” works would be sinful.
You said:
“Therefore, it doesn't matter if a man does a good deed because he has faith that God will save him as a result. Or if he does it simply because he loves God. In both cases, the good works are products of that man's faith in God.”
But what if the man’s faith is misguided? For example, what if he “has faith” that he will be saved by being circumcised, or that he will be saved by those “ordinances of Moses” that you mentioned? Will that save him just because SOME kind of “faith” is present? No, because his faith has to be grounded on biblical principles. His erroneous belief may be a product of his faith, but it is still erroneous. Surely, you will disagree, but doing works of any kind TO BE SAVED is exercising an unbiblical and misguided faith, just as this man has done.
Your breakdown of Galatians 5:4 is lacking, because it is based on a wrong premise. You are assuming that the Ten Commandments are not part of the Mosaic Law that Paul is speaking of in Galatians. The law that condemns us is NOT just the “ordinances which Moses attached to the Ten Commandments.” Both of these are part of the “WHOLE” law (Galatians 5:3). Those ordinances (dietary, civil, and ceremonial laws, etc.) cannot save anyone, but neither can the Ten Commandments. They can only condemn a person, since they point to his weakness.
You keep pointing to verses like James 2:24…
“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”
…to disprove the doctrine of “Sola Fide. But once again, you (and most Catholics) have a real hard time dealing with CONTEXT here.
Once again, this verse (James 2:24), like many others you put forth, IS NOT ABOUT “HOW TO GET SAVED.” It is about how one who claims to be a Christian should be living and acting. It is about the PROOF or DEMONSTRATION of one’s faith. If his faith is true and real, then his life will reflect this faith, which will result in good works. If his life has none of these good works, then there is good reason to believe that his faith is not real and that it is a dead faith, and he is no Christian.
This context is not about how to become saved. On the other hand, Paul DOES deal with that topic in Romans 3, 4, and 5. There is no contradiction between James and Paul… they just deal with different topics.
Hi De Maria,
DeleteHi Russell, Thanks for writing back. I thought you had gotten upset and had gone away for good.
First, my apologies for double-posting this comment.
No problem.
I accidently posted my comment above on your “Do We Reap What We Sow” article, elsewhere on your blog, when I meant to only post it here. I was hoping that you would delete it from there, so that it does not cause confusion for anyone.
The thought never crossed my mind. I thought you wanted your statement seen by as many people as possible.
You said that dead works are simply an “equivalent” to sin.
Yes.
But you’re acting as though “dead works” is just another term for sin, in general.
It is not.
I believe I walked you through the Scripture.
They are indeed sinful works,
Isn't that what I said?
but dead works include those done before salvation in trying to appease God (or soothe one’s conscience) apart from a changed heart, and it also includes those works that one does after salvation that are not acceptable to God, which would certainly include trying to “earn” salvation (even if only partially). Remember the Pharisees in Matthew 6 who were doing good deeds, but did them for the wrong reasons? For example, giving alms (6:1-2), praying (6:5-6), and fasting (6:16) are all good works that we should do, but the Pharisees’ MOTIVE was wrong. So, their only reward was the satisfying of their selfish desire to be noticed by men. They got no reward from God for doing these works, because these were dead works. They were either done apart from faith, or done for the wrong reason.
That is a very thought provoking paragraph and there is a lot of truth in it. But, you are not sticking, precisely, to the subject which we are discussing.
1st, in the context in which St. Paul was writing, dead works are sins.
2nd. I made my statement in response to your claim that "….In other words, you’re implying that it doesn’t matter what’s in your HEART, i.e., whether you do works to be saved or not, or whether they are done simply out of gratitude and love for God…"
My response amounts to this. Anytime one does works in order to be saved by God, that is an expression of faith in God. And anytime one does works because of a sense of gratitude and love for God, that is an even more perfect expression of faith in God. Therefore, these are not dead works.
3. Those which you mentioned in the paragraph above, alms given to impress men, praying without faith and any other such thing amount to the same sin which Protestants make when they claim to be saved by faith alone. It is the sin of "presumption". An excess of pride before God. Claiming to be saved by faith alone is a dead work.
I believe that response proves that this comment of yours is based upon a misunderstanding of that which I said previously.
So, saying that “it doesn’t matter WHY you do a good work, as long as you do the work,” is saying that God doesn’t care what’s in your heart. And that’s absolutely false.
That's not what I said.
You can “void” what would otherwise be a good work, by not doing this work in the right spirit / attitude. This would be a dead (and useless) work. If you are not serving God FROM THE HEART, you are not serving God. Even your “good” works would be sinful.
Faith without works is dead.
Works without faith are dead.
The two amount to the same sin. Pride and presumption before God.
cont'd
cont'd
DeleteRussell said:
You said: “Therefore, it doesn't matter if a man does a good deed because he has faith that God will save him as a result. Or if he does it simply because he loves God. In both cases, the good works are products of that man's faith in God.”
That is exactly what I said.
But what if the man’s faith is misguided? For example, what if he “has faith” that he will be saved by being circumcised, or that he will be saved by those “ordinances of Moses” that you mentioned? Will that save him just because SOME kind of “faith” is present? No, because his faith has to be grounded on biblical principles. His erroneous belief may be a product of his faith, but it is still erroneous. Surely, you will disagree, but doing works of any kind TO BE SAVED is exercising an unbiblical and misguided faith, just as this man has done.
That depends. Lets say that this man believes that he will be saved by being circumcised and doing the ordinances. But believes that good works will give him rewards in heaven. Then this man will keep the Commandments thinking that they are simply a means of getting a higher rank in heaven equivalent to that which you believe.
Will he be saved? Yes. Because out of his misguided faith, there resulted good and righteous works.
But lets talk about two other examples of misguided faith. Let's say that one believes he will be saved by his circumcision and another by his claim of accepting Christ into his heart. Therefore they both claim that they don't need to do anything else and any sin they commit after their salvation by circumcision alone and by faith alone is enough.
Will they be saved? I doubt it.
Your breakdown of Galatians 5:4 is lacking,
I like it.
because it is based on a wrong premise. You are assuming that the Ten Commandments are not part of the Mosaic Law that Paul is speaking of in Galatians. The law that condemns us is NOT just the “ordinances which Moses attached to the Ten Commandments.” Both of these are part of the “WHOLE” law (Galatians 5:3). Those ordinances (dietary, civil, and ceremonial laws, etc.) cannot save anyone, but neither can the Ten Commandments. They can only condemn a person, since they point to his weakness.
You're mistaken. God wrote the Ten Commandments with His finger upon a stone. That is a fact. And that fact symbolizes this truth. God wrote the Ten Commandments in the STONY heart of every man. The Ten Commandments are the universal and absolute standard of righteousness. Circumcision is not written in our hearts. The ordinances are not written in our hearts. The Ten Commandments are.
cont'd
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DeleteRussell said:
You keep pointing to verses like James 2:24… “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.” …to disprove the doctrine of “Sola Fide. But once again, you (and most Catholics) have a real hard time dealing with CONTEXT here.
It amazes me how Protestants claim we are the ones who have a hard time with the context there. The context i s precisely as it is written. Not by faith only.
Once again, this verse (James 2:24), like many others you put forth, IS NOT ABOUT “HOW TO GET SAVED.” It is about how one who claims to be a Christian should be living and acting. It is about the PROOF or DEMONSTRATION of one’s faith. If his faith is true and real, then his life will reflect this faith, which will result in good works. If his life has none of these good works, then there is good reason to believe that his faith is not real and that it is a dead faith, and he is no Christian.
By works a man is justified. Not by faith only.
That is telling you how a man is justified. By works and not by faith alone.
This context is not about how to become saved. On the other hand, Paul DOES deal with that topic in Romans 3, 4, and 5. There is no contradiction between James and Paul… they just deal with different topics.
Start reading in Rom 2. That sets the tone for the rest of the discussion in Romans and without it, you will come to erroneous conclusions, as you have.
Sincerely,
De Maria
De Maria,
ReplyDelete(Part 1 of 2)
You said:
“3. Those which you mentioned in the paragraph above, alms given to impress men, praying without faith and any other such thing amount to the same sin which Protestants make when they claim to be saved by faith alone. It is the sin of ‘presumption’. An excess of pride before God. Claiming to be saved by faith alone is a dead work.”
It is true that “excess pride” in any form is wrong, but please notice that any time Paul warns against boasting, it is always in reference to works, never faith.
You said:
“Will he be saved? Yes. Because out of his misguided faith, there resulted good and righteous works.”
De Maria, we know that Mormons do a lot of (what seems to be) good works. Will they also be saved because of these works? Or does doctrine matter at all? Is it ok to believe in multiple gods, as long as you are “exercising faith” that produces some type of work? Would you say that the Mormon’s misguided faith is acceptable? I would certainly hope that you don’t believe that. A misguided faith is an insufficient faith, and will not save you.
To me, thinking that your works can help to save you by adding to Jesus’ perfect payment for sin on the cross, is the height of presumption and a far greater “excess of pride before God,” than trusting only in HIS work! The doctrine of “faith alone” leaves one with NOTHING of himself to trust in. That’s why Paul warns of boasting in one’s WORKS. (Romans 3:27; Ephesians 2:8-9)
You said:
“You're mistaken. God wrote the Ten Commandments with His finger upon a stone. That is a fact. And that fact symbolizes this truth. God wrote the Ten Commandments in the STONY heart of every man. The Ten Commandments are the universal and absolute standard of righteousness. Circumcision is not written in our hearts. The ordinances are not written in our hearts. The Ten Commandments are.”
I agree that the Ten Commandments are the universal and absolute standard of righteousness, but just because they are written on your heart doesn’t mean that they SAVE you. Depending on our obedience to the Ten Commandments to be saved is foolish, since we are ALL guilty of breaking them. Rather, we need to depend on Someone else’s perfect work - that being Jesus on the cross. By the way, neither baptism, nor any sacrament, is written on our hearts, yet the Catholic Church claims that these save.
Russell
Delete(Part 1 of 2)
It is true that “excess pride” in any form is wrong, but please notice that any time Paul warns against boasting, it is always in reference to works, never faith.
The claim to being saved IS A DEAD WORK. When St. Paul warns against boasting of works, he is warning against the boast of possessing enough faith to consider oneself saved apart from and in lieu of the Judgment of All Mighty God.
And you are wrong. He warns against prematurely assuming one's personal salvation many times (1 Cor 4:4-6; 1 Cor 9:27; 1 Cor 10:12).
And he never teaches any such thing as faith alone. He always teaches faith accompanied by works. In fact, his teaching against faith alone is not as explicit as that of St. James, but it is certainly more eloquent:
1 Corinthians 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
You said: “Will he be saved? Yes. Because out of his misguided faith, there resulted good and righteous works.” De Maria, we know that Mormons do a lot of (what seems to be) good works. Will they also be saved because of these works?
God knows. I won't judge them. God knows if they keep the Commandments out of faith in Him. They won't be saved by the Catholic Sacraments, as some Protestants who unbeknownst to themselves might be (Baptism is the one Sacrament which remains efficacious in the Protestant denominations). But if they do righteous deeds out of their faith in God, then they are the servants of righteousness and God does not forget their works.
Or does doctrine matter at all?
Doctrine matters a great deal. But you have no authority to judge them or anyone else. Not even yourself. God alone is the Judge of all mankind.
Is it ok to believe in multiple gods, as long as you are “exercising faith” that produces some type of work?
It is not ok. But God justifies the ungodly if they repent of their sins. All who act righteously are His children.
This verse demolishes the doctrine of faith alone:
1 John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil:
whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
Read that carefully. He that does not do anything righteous is not of God. In order to be God's, you must act righteously. That is the test. Claiming faith alone without doing righteous deeds, is not.
Would you say that the Mormon’s misguided faith is acceptable?
A Mormon who keeps the Commandments is acceptable to God.
A Catholic who does not keep the Commandments is not acceptable to God, no matter how many Sacraments he receives.
A Protestant who does not keep the Commandments is not acceptable to God no matter how often he claims salvation by faith alone.
1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
cont'd
cont'd
DeleteI would certainly hope that you don’t believe that. A misguided faith is an insufficient faith, and will not save you.
All Protestants, including you, suffer from a misguided faith. The only true faith is one that understands and submits to the doctrines of the Catholic Church.
God makes the insufficient faith of His servants to stand:
Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
To me, thinking that your works can help to save you by adding to Jesus’ perfect payment for sin on the cross, is the height of presumption and a far greater “excess of pride before God,” than trusting only in HIS work!
To me, trusting in your faith alone to save you is to replace your own attributes with Christ's perfect work on the Cross.
To me, your casting aside the explicit commandments and obligations imposed by Jesus Christ upon all believers and replacing them with your own claim of salvation in contradiction to the Word of God and in lieu of the Judgement of God is the greatest excess of pride.
The doctrine of “faith alone” leaves one with NOTHING of himself to trust in.
Quite the opposite. It leaves one with nothing but himself to trust in.
That’s why Paul warns of boasting in one’s WORKS. (Romans 3:27; Ephesians 2:8-9)
Faith is a work (John 6:28-29). Those who boast of being saved by their faith alone are boasting of doing something for themselves that God alone can do for anyone. It is the sin of presumption.
I agree that the Ten Commandments are the universal and absolute standard of righteousness, but just because they are written on your heart doesn’t mean that they SAVE you.
I didn't say they saved you. I said that in order to be saved by God, you must keep His Commandments. That is a totally different message.
Depending on our obedience to the Ten Commandments to be saved is foolish, since we are ALL guilty of breaking them.
We don't depend upon our obedience to be saved. We depend upon the mercy of God which He sheds upon those who obey His will. Intentionally neglecting to obey His Commandments is not a sign of good faith.
Rather, we need to depend on Someone else’s perfect work - that being Jesus on the cross.
Which we do when we submit to the Sacraments.
By the way, neither baptism, nor any sacrament, is written on our hearts, yet the Catholic Church claims that these save.
Because Baptism and the Sacraments are works of God.
Sincerely,
De Maria
(Part 2 of 2)
ReplyDeleteYou said:
“By works a man is justified. Not by faith only…That is telling you how a man is justified. By works and not by faith alone.”
De Maria, this verse (James 2:24) is not used in a vacuum. There is a clear context that surrounds it. No honest person can deny that the subject is about showing / proving / demonstrating one’s faith by his good works. The word that James uses for “justify / justified” is the exact same Greek word (“dikaioo”) used throughout the New Testament. But the word is used in some passages to mean VINDICATION and not salvation, for example:
Matthew 11:19 – “The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified [NASV “vindicated”] of her children.”
Luke 7:29 – “And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.”
Luke 10:29 – “But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?”
Luke 16:15 – “And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.”
Using this term in the same way (for “vindication” and not salvation) in James 2:24 makes perfect sense, because of its context. The faith of the person who has good works is vindicated or proven by those works. Of course it is not absolute proof of salvation, but James’ point is that a Christian’s life should be consistent with good works. James is not saying that good works cause salvation, but rather, they are a result of it.
You seemed to be denying that the context of Romans 3, 4 and 5 was “how to become saved,” and you said:
“Start reading in Rom 2. That sets the tone for the rest of the discussion in Romans and without it, you will come to erroneous conclusions, as you have.”
I already addressed that in the article when I said that Paul does not conclude his argument in chapter 2, but in 3:28:
“Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.” He sums up the role of works when it comes to acquiring salvation – namely, that works don’t cause salvation, but faith does.
So, tell me, how does Romans 2 negate Paul’s conclusion that man is saved / justified “apart from works,” when this passage (Romans 3:28 and following) is plainly and specifically dealing with how a person is made right with God?
Romans 2 doesn’t void Paul’s clear argument at all, but rather, complements it. Once again, as I said in the article, Paul argues in Romans chapter 1 that the gentiles have sinned. In Romans 2, he stresses that the Jews have also sinned. Therefore, ALL have sinned (Romans 3:19, 23) and we all need a Savior. From there, Paul goes on to tell us in the following chapters HOW to be saved. No list of works is mentioned here, no rituals or sacraments, but only faith in the work of Jesus on the cross. This is the simplicity of the gospel. Thank God for it.
Hello again Russell,
Delete(Part 2 of 2) You said: “By works a man is justified. Not by faith only…....James is not saying that good works cause salvation, but rather, they are a result of it.
1. That doesn't make sense. In order for it to mean that good works are a result of salvation, it would say, "24 Ye see then how that by his salvation a man produces good works and not faith only.
2. St. James is saying that faith and good works result in justification. Not works alone. Not faith alone.
3. The order is clear. By works a man is justified, not by faith only. Meaning that by itself, faith does not result in justification. Faith must be accompanied by good works to result in justification.
You seemed to be denying that the context of Romans 3, 4 and 5 was “how to become saved,” and you said: “Start reading in Rom 2. That sets the tone for the rest of the discussion in Romans and without it, you will come to erroneous conclusions, as you have.” I already addressed that in the article when I said that Paul does not conclude his argument in chapter 2, but in 3:28: “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.” He sums up the role of works when it comes to acquiring salvation – namely, that works don’t cause salvation, but faith does.
1. Faith doesn't cause salvation. God saves the faithful.
Faith is a work of righteousness. We are not saved by any works of righteousness but by the mercy of God (Titus 3:5).
>2. The faithful are they who do the will of God.
Faithful people are they who do the will of God. Romans 3:28 is comparing the law of Moses to the law of faith. Here is what a fuller excerpt says:
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Note verse 31. Which law is not made void? We know that the ordinances are made void by Christ on the Cross:
Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Therefore the Law of the Commandments remains in force. And we don't make it void by our faith but we establish it. Only the lawless will reject the Commandments. And the lawless will not please God:
Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
3. Romans 3:28 is a Sacramental Teaching. In the Sacraments we are justified because we believe in God. God pours His Sanctifying grace in our souls and washes away our sins. Nothing that we can do to cause that washing away of sin. There is no scrubbing bubble product that can wash our soul. God does it.
cont'd
cont'd
DeleteSo, tell me, how does Romans 2 negate Paul’s conclusion that man is saved / justified “apart from works,” when this passage (Romans 3:28 and following) is plainly and specifically dealing with how a person is made right with God?
Romans 2 does not negate St. Paul's conclusions anywhere. It negates your interpretation of St. Paul's words.
1st. Romans 2 does not say we are justified by works. It says that those who keep the law of God are justified in the eyes of God.
2nd. Romans 3:28 does not say that we are justified by faith alone. St. Paul is not contrasting the faith of an individual with the works of that individual. He is contrasting the New Covenant to the Old.
To see this we must go to verse 20.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
First he says, the law of Moses does not justify anyone. That is why it was replaced? By what was it replaced?
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
By that which is called the "righteousness of God without the law". What is this righteousness of God without the law?
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
It is the righteousness achieved by obeying the faith or religion of Jesus Christ which is bestowed upon all who believe. This is a reference to Baptism and the Sacraments.
Romans 2 doesn’t void Paul’s clear argument at all, but rather, complements it.
Agreed. But not as you understand it. Your understanding is false and twisted by the fact that you have rejected the Traditions of Jesus Christ and therefore do not recognize them when you see them in Scripture.
Once again, as I said in the article, Paul argues in Romans chapter 1 that the gentiles have sinned. In Romans 2, he stresses that the Jews have also sinned. Therefore, ALL have sinned (Romans 3:19, 23) and we all need a Savior. From there, Paul goes on to tell us in the following chapters HOW to be saved. No list of works is mentioned here, no rituals or sacraments, but only faith in the work of Jesus on the cross. This is the simplicity of the gospel. Thank God for it.
That is how you have twisted the Gospel. But the Gospel teaches a totally different message. Simplicity is not an end in itself. Whatever God requires we must obey and any who reject His requirements, reject God Himself.
Instead of cherry picking Rom 3, read it to its conclusion. We don't void the law by faith. We establish it. Faith alone, is dead.
Sincerely,
De Maria
De Maria,
ReplyDeleteWith all due respect, there are so many things you said in these last comments that were either wrong, illogical, or unbiblical. But I won’t respond fully because I feel like you are not even listening to my arguments.
It seems you’re sometimes just blurting out irrational thoughts that pop into your head. Most of the Scriptures that you’ve used don’t apply against my argument or are taken out of context. You accuse me of twisting Scripture, but I only see that going on in your own arguments, instead. You make blanket judgments against Protestants in your comments, yet you blame me for “judging.” You also contradicted your own self so many times in the past weeks / months concerning the role of works: On the one hand, you said many things to indicate that a person’s works save him (or at least contribute, to some extent, to his salvation). And then you turn around and make a number of comments to indicate that a person’s works DO NOT save him. It’s hard to tell exactly what you believe.
You insert the idea of sacraments when there is absolutely nothing there about sacraments.
Your arguments are so confusing that you are probably confusing many devout Catholics out there, as well.
A major issue is that you continue to act as though Protestants are somehow against EVER doing good works at all. But that is your ongoing misrepresentation and is simply not true.
De Maria, I don’t say these things out of anger, malice or bitterness, but out of deepest concern: The simple gospel message of Jesus Christ has been brought to you, and you have repeatedly rejected it for another gospel (Galatians 1:8-9). I hope that your readers do not do the same thing.
This topic is indeed about the gospel, and I stand by everything I’ve said. Please don’t let the Catholic Church deceive you (or your readers) any more. In all sincerity, my heart goes out to you and to all Catholics.
Thank you for all the discussions we’ve had, but it’s time we part. Once again, perhaps for the final time, we will leave it for the reader to decide which side is closer to the truth.
In His Name,
Russell
De Maria,
DeleteHi Russell,
With all due respect, there are so many things you said in these last comments that were either wrong, illogical, or unbiblical. But I won’t respond fully because I feel like you are not even listening to my arguments.
I mean no disrespect either, when I say, the feeling is mutual.
It seems you’re sometimes just blurting out irrational thoughts that pop into your head. Most of the Scriptures that you’ve used don’t apply against my argument or are taken out of context. You accuse me of twisting Scripture, but I only see that going on in your own arguments, instead.
There's no sense rehashing everything. Everyone can read what you and I wrote. But I will highlight this one because it seems so obvious. Concerning James 2, you said,
James is not saying that good works cause salvation, but rather, they are a result of it.
But a simple reading of James 2 says:
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
In other words, if a man has faith, but not works, can that faith save his soul? Then,
St. James continues along the same lines and explicitly says:
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
In other words, if faith is not accompanied by works, it is dead faith and not useful for salvation. Then he says,
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
In other words, a verbal claim of faith without works is nothing compared to a person who does not claim faith at all, but lets his faith shine forth through his works or good deeds. Then he repeats:
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
And then he says:
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Our works make our faith perfect. Without works, our faith is imperfect. In fact, so imperfect that it is dead and useless for our salvation.
And then, he repeats:
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
As I responded to you. If he wanted to say that salvation produces good works, this sentence and the entire paragraph would say something like, "by our salvation good works are produced."
But he never says any such thing.
So, between you and I, yours are the twisted and irrational arguments. You seem to simply be justifying your theology at any cost. Including at the cost of twisting the word of God.
The readers are smart enough to decide between you and I, who is twisting the Scripture and producing irrational arguments and who is not.
cont'd
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DeleteYou make blanket judgments against Protestants in your comments, yet you blame me for “judging.”
I suppose you mean the idea that claiming to be saved by faith alone is a sin called "presumption" or "excess of pride before God." That is Catholic Teaching.
TRENT VI
CHAPTER XII RASH PRESUMPTION OF PREDESTINATION IS TO BE AVOIDED
No one, moreover, so long as he lives this mortal life, ought in regard to the sacred mystery of divine predestination, so far presume as to state with absolute certainty that he is among the number of the predestined,[74] as if it were true that the one justified either cannot sin any more, or, if he does sin, that he ought to promise himself an assured repentance…..
Presumption before God is a sin of excess pride. The CCC says:
2091 The first commandment is also concerned with sins against hope, namely, despair and presumption:
By despair, man ceases to hope for his personal salvation from God, for help in attaining it or for the forgiveness of his sins. Despair is contrary to God's goodness, to his justice - for the Lord is faithful to his promises - and to his mercy.
2092 There are two kinds of presumption. Either man presumes upon his own capacities, (hoping to be able to save himself without help from on high), or he presumes upon God's almighty power or his mercy (hoping to obtain his forgiveness without conversion and glory without merit).
You also contradicted your own self so many times in the past weeks / months concerning the role of works: On the one hand, you said many things to indicate that a person’s works save him (or at least contribute, to some extent, to his salvation). And then you turn around and make a number of comments to indicate that a person’s works DO NOT save him. It’s hard to tell exactly what you believe.
Well, let me try again. Catholic doctrine says:
...we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification. (Trent VI, Chapter VIII)
Therefore, it is true, that we are saved by faith and works, but only in a manner of speaking.
Our faith does not save, we don't save ourselves.
Our works do not save, we don't save ourselves.
God saves those who demonstrate their faith in works of love. God grants eternal life to those who keep His Commandments.
Romans 2:13
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Revelation 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
You insert the idea of sacraments when there is absolutely nothing there about sacraments.
Again, the problem is that you have discarded the Traditions of Jesus Christ. Those Traditions are the basis of the New Testament. In other words, the New Testament was written in order to assist in the passing down of those Traditions. Since you reject the Traditions, you don't recognize them when you see them described in Scripture.
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DeleteYour arguments are so confusing that you are probably confusing many devout Catholics out there, as well.
I doubt it. I've had many complaints from Protestants but few from Catholics.
A major issue is that you continue to act as though Protestants are somehow against EVER doing good works at all. But that is your ongoing misrepresentation and is simply not true.
That isn't true. I'm simply telling you that works are not the product of salvation. They are the product of faith
. De Maria, I don’t say these things out of anger, malice or bitterness, but out
of deepest concern: The simple gospel message of Jesus Christ has been brought to you, and you have repeatedly rejected it for another gospel (Galatians 1:8-9). I hope that your readers do not do the same thing.
Thanks for your concern, but there is no need. I am concerned for you and your Protestant brethren who presume their salvation because of their own virtues (i.e. faith alone).
This topic is indeed about the gospel, and I stand by everything I’ve said. Please don’t let the Catholic Church deceive you (or your readers) any more. In all sincerity, my heart goes out to you and to all Catholics.
Again, thank you for your concern. But a comparison of my words and yours to the Gospel will show that you are the one who does not understand the Word of God. I suggest you and all Protestants read Matt 25:31-46; Rom 2:13; Rev 22:13-15.
Thank you for all the discussions we’ve had, but it’s time we part. Once again, perhaps for the final time, we will leave it for the reader to decide which side is closer to the truth.
Thanks for participating with me Russell. As I told you before, our exchanges are some of the most popular on my blog. Only Scott Hahn draws more attention. Therefore, If you don't come back, you will be missed.
In His Name,
May we always remain,
Russell
De Maria
Very well done, Russell. Keep on sharing biblical truth. It seems as though these legalists just don't seem to understand the simple, biblical message of the gospel. I was once too was influenced by the dough god of Romanism. May the Holy Spirit convict the hearts of these people.
ReplyDeleteThe Biblical Truth is that Jesus Christ established the Holy Eucharist and that He commanded us to eat His Flesh and drink His Blood (John 6:53).
DeleteSo, if I show up with a fork and knife, that’s cool, right? Just trying to follow the 'Biblical Truth' to the letter!
DeleteAmidst your "scholarly" flourish, there remains a nagging sense that perhaps, just perhaps, you’re trying to squeeze God's grace into a well-tailored suit that doesn’t quite align with the divine dimensions. The elegant rhetoric about “faith and works” is indeed charming, but one must wonder if, in this grand balancing act, you are subtly reassigning the roles of faith and grace in a way that neglects their foundational significance in the soteriological narrative. It’s almost as if you’re attempting to reconcile oil and water—admirable, but ultimately a tad messy.
ReplyDeleteYou assert, “we do not save ourselves either by our faith or our works,” which is all fine and noble, except for the tiny detail that the moment you introduce the idea that “those who obey God are saved by God’s grace,” you seem to trigger a delightful little contradiction. Isn’t it ironic? You’re proclaiming that it’s all about divine agency while simultaneously insisting that our works carry weight in the equation. It's as if we’re engaging in a cosmic game of tug-of-war, with grace pulling on one end and our self-important deeds straining on the other. Perhaps we should just short-circuit the debate by acknowledging that if salvation is indeed a divine gift, then it stands to reason we shouldn’t be charging admission at the door—after all, grace isn’t exactly a cover charge at an exclusive club.
Your extensive citations from Romans, particularly Chapter 2, are indeed compelling—but there’s a delightful irony in your insistence that “the doers of the law shall be justified,” while deftly sidestepping the context of Paul’s broader theological argument. Paul, bless him, paints a rather different picture by calling into question the futility of the works of the Law as a means of attaining righteousness. You might have overlooked the fact that in emphasizing a salvific schema rooted in human effort, you could be inadvertently echoing the very paradox Paul addresses: that by trying to justify ourselves through works, we might just be undermining the abundant grace that is the hallmark of the Gospel. Oops!
In your reference to Abraham, you passionately argue that he was justified by his works when he offered Isaac. While this interpretation is customary within your tradition, it smacks of a rather selective reading of Genesis. Would it not be more illuminating to consider that Abraham’s righteousness was first attributed to his faith before any action was taken? “He believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness” (Genesis 15:6). The dynamic here is crucial; it's almost as if you can distinctly hear the divine voice saying, “Not so fast! Faith first, folks.”
ReplyDeleteFurthermore, as you expound upon your interpretation of Romans 4, might I suggest that you broaden your scope to embrace the interplay of faith, grace, and works in both Paul’s letters and the Church's tradition? It’s a grand narrative, not a series of disjointed moments meticulously documented on a timeline. To reiterate that “justification is a process” while leaning heavily on human action seems to fall into the trap of mixing justification with sanctification—a distinction that the Reformation rather vehemently championed. If we reduce justification to our ability to perform the Law, we end up with a rather insular perspective on salvation, almost like offering a one-size-fits-all holy garment, tailored for individual comfort.
Moreover, I must commend your assertive stance that the "Traditions of Jesus Christ" provide the interpretive framework for understanding scripture. It's amusing how a diverse set of traditions may sometimes lead to the very fragmentation from which we seek salvation! One is left to wonder if these traditions might have inadvertently morphed into the very “law” Paul warns against: a collection of human regulations obscuring the radical nature of God's grace. A fascinating irony, wouldn't you say?
As you highlight the sacraments as instruments of justification, it’s critical that we approach our understanding of grace with an eye toward the unmerited nature of God’s love. Yes, Catholic teaching emphasizes the sacramental economy, but let’s not lose sight of the fact that these sacraments are conduits of divine grace—not the price tags on the gift of salvation. Your insistence on maintaining the integrity of works while claiming that we do not justify ourselves implies a paradox worth exploring. If grace is freely given and not a reward for good behavior, must we continuously emphasize human agency in a way that could diminish the stark, scandalous notion of grace? It’s almost like giving credit to the mailman for delivering a birthday gift—sweet, but not quite standing up to scrutiny.
ReplyDeleteIn conclusion, it would be a tragedy for our theological musings to devolve into an exhaustive catalog of human efforts when the core message of the Gospel joyfully declares, “It is finished”—an audacious reminder that God’s grace is infinitely more sufficient than we could ever hope to earn.