The conversion of Cornelius clearly shows that water baptism is not the necessary

Lutero said:

Acts 10:44-47 - While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard themspeak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" Are you trying to tell me that these Gentiles who BELIEVED, received the Holy Spirit, spoke in tongues and magnified God prior to being baptized were still lost? Do children of the devil have the Holy Spirit, speak in tongues and magnify God or do children of God?

The conversion of Cornelius clearly shows that water baptism is not the necessary means by which they received salvation. Before he was water baptized he already "received" the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:47). In view of this, there are three passages that demonstrate that he was saved. They are Romans 8:9; Galatians 4:6 and 1 John 4:13.

What does saved mean to you? Because here is an example of people who were NOT saved and yet:
1. were once enlightened
2. have tasted of the heavenly gift,
3. were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
4. have tasted the good word of God,
5. have tasted....the powers of the world to come

If these guys weren't saved, why are St. Cornelius and his group saved? Now, we believe that St. Cornelius endured to the end. But we know that from Tradition. It is not indicated in Scripture.

Heb 6:
⁴For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
⁵And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
⁶If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Here's another example from Scripture. Those who call Christ, Lord, do so by the Holy Ghost:

1 Corinthians 12:3

King James Version (KJV)
³Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed:and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.These guys called Jesus, Lord:
Matthew 7:21

King James Version (KJV)
²¹Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

That can only mean one thing. Not everyone who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit will be saved. Or do you have a different understanding of the word, "saved"?

1. Romans 8:9 - If one has the Holy Spirit they "belong" to Christ. To belong to Christ does not describe a lost person but a saved person - such was the case of Cornelius before he was water baptized.

Lets read that verse in context:
¹There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
²For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
³For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
⁴That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
⁵For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
⁶For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
⁷Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
⁸So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
⁹But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

What that says is IF a person is in the Spirit. It doesn't say that St. Cornelius was in the Spirit at that time. Nor that he endured to the end. He's talking to believers, people in the Church. Count the IFs. He continually says, if the Spirit of God dwell in you, if you walk according to the Spirit, etc. etc. Read the whole chapter.

2. Galatians 4:6 - Because he was already a "son" God sent the Holy Spirit into his heart whereby he can now rightly refer to God as "Abba! Father!" This would only describe the condition of one who is saved and not lost.

Again, read the whole chapter. What does he say in verse 11?
⁹But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
¹⁰Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
¹¹I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.How about verse 20?
¹⁹My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
²⁰I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.

Does that sound as though he is certain they are saved? If he is certain they are saved, why does he write anything at all?

3. 1 John 4:13 - Because he had the Holy Spirit Cornelius abided in God and God abided in him. To abide in God and to have God abide in you does not describe a lost person but a saved person - such was the case of Cornelius before he was water baptized.

God abided in St. Cornelius because he kept the Commandments. That is why he is called a just man when he is first introduced:
Acts 10

¹There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
²A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
³He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.

But nothing in Scripture says that he was saved before he was baptized. Nor does it even say that he was saved after he was baptized. No one is saved simply because they are baptized. Salvation comes only after patient continuance in well doing to the end. And God is the Judge of that. No one else.

If someone places their faith in Christ alone for salvation and then drops dead of a heart attack before they have a chance to get water baptized, does that mean they did not place their faith in Christ alone for salvation?

Who are they? Do you know who they are? Let's say a man comes to you and says, "I place my faith in Christ alone." And immediately dies. How do YOU know that the man was telling the truth? Can you read his heart? Only God knows.

Does the water magically make someone believe something that they were unable to believe before they were baptized?

No. The water is the sign of God's action in the soul.

Do you baptize unbelievers in order to make them become believers? Infants can't even believe. Where does the Bible talk about baptizing infants?

Many places:
Acts 2:38-40

King James Version (KJV)
³⁸Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
³⁹For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.
⁴⁰And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

1 Corinthians 1:16

King James Version (KJV)
¹⁶And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

Acts 16:32-34

King James Version (KJV)
³²And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
³³And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
³⁴And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

In Acts 11:17, Peter refers back to the events that took place in Acts 10. We see that God gave them the same gift (Holy Spirit) as he gave us, who BELIEVEDon the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could oppose God?" Acts 10:43 - ..whosoever BELIEVES IN HIM shall receive REMISSION OF SINS.It was established that they BELIEVED on the Lord Jesus Christ BEFORE they were water baptized. Placing their faith in Christ alone for salvation constituted BELIEVING. Baptism took place AFTERWARDS. Just as Acts 16:31 says to BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved, yet you try to "shoe horn" baptism into the equation of BELIEVING and being saved (Luke 8:12; John 3:16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 13:39; Romans 1:16; 4:5; 1 Corinthians 1:21), when Scripture shows us that there is a distinction between BELIEVING and getting baptized AFTERWARDS (Acts 10:43-48; 11:17; 16:31-33). Believing is not baptism and believing precedes baptism and we are saved when we BELIEVE.

NO. We are saved when we persevere to the end.
Matthew 10:22

King James Version (KJV)
²²And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Water baptism may symbolize the washing of the soul by the Holy Spirit but water baptism does not effect that which it symbolizes. The “washing” described here is the spiritual cleansing, which is outwardly symbolized in baptism. Water baptism could not be equated with or be the cause of the "washing of regeneration" because this would contradict the part of the verse that says "not by works or righteousness which we have done."

We don't do it. God does.

Notice the AND between believe AND is baptized. Two distinct things. Baptism is for "in regards to" the remission of sins, not in order to obtain the remission of sins. In Matthew 3:11, we read: "I baptize you with water FOR (eis) repentance..." The "for" in Matthew 3:11 is a translation of "eis". If translated "in order to obtain" the verse does not make sense. "I baptize you with water (in order to obtain) repentance..?" "I baptize you with water (in reference to - in regards to) repentance..?" If you believe that baptism is the cause of the remission of sins, then you believe "in your baptism" to save you and not solely in Christ. That's not believing 100% in Christ for salvation, but is believing in your baptism as well. Jesus needs no supplements. If you don't believe in Christ for salvation and become a Christian before you are water baptized, then your baptism is wasted and you become an imposter, and are declaring, in baptism, to be what you are not.

You are picking at straws. It is clear that Baptism is for the remission of sins and effects the washing away of sins.

Absolutely false. Faith is not baptism.

No it isn't. But unless one has faith in Christ, one won't accept Baptism.

Faith is believing in Christ for salvation. Water baptism follows faith and testifies to it. You are putting words in St. Peter's mouth. If Peter meant that our hearts were purified by baptism then he would have said "purifying their hearts by baptism" but that is not what Peter said. The symbol is not the reality but a picture of the reality.

He says it elsewhere:
1 Peter 3:21

King James Version (KJV)
²¹The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

In Acts 10:22, we read that Cornelius was a just man, one who fears God and has a good reputation among all the nation of the Jews.. Does this mean that Cornelius was saved? After Peter had his vision, we see that he did not go of his own initiative into the house of Cornelius. He went under God's direct orders. What was the purpose of Peter going into the house of Cornelius? Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon whose surname is Peter, Acts 11:14 - who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved.What was this message? Acts 10:43 - To Him all the prophets witness that,through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins." Where does Peter mention the words "heart purified by faith in the waters of baptism?" They received the Holy Spirit when they BELIEVED prior to water baptism (Acts 10:43-48; 11:17). You are reading your own preconceived thoughts into these passages of Scripture.

Well, I can only repeat what I asked earlier:
What does saved mean to you? Because here is an example of people who were NOT saved and yet:
1. were once enlightened
2. have tasted of the heavenly gift,
3. were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
4. have tasted the good word of God,
5. have tasted....the powers of the world to come

If these guys weren't saved, why are St. Cornelius and his group saved? Now, we believe that St. Cornelius endured to the end. But we know that from Tradition. It is not indicated in Scripture.

Heb 6:
⁴For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
⁵And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
⁶If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Unless you just want to ditch Heb 6.

How is that not the same message? We are not saved by good works, but we must persevere in good works in order to be saved?

Correct. God saves. Works don't. Even your faith doesn't. We don't save ourselves.

Either way, these good works become the cause of our salvation. Perseverance is proof of genuine conversion. We don't pull ourselves up by our bootstraps and perservere in our own strength.

Amen! We don't save ourselves. God saves those who persevere.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 (NIV) - Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ.

THANK YOU!

cont'd

cont'd

He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Amen!

BUT WHAT IS TO COME? Keep reading to the next chapter:
¹⁵For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
¹⁶To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?
¹⁷For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

Essentially, St. Paul guarantees that God knows what will happen. He asks, "who is sufficient for these things?" In other words, "who is great enough to know these things?"

But he guarantees one thing, if the Spirit has been given you and you follow after the flesh, you will die the death. THAT IS WHAT HE GUARANTEES.

Don't pull one verse here and one verse there. Read the whole book.

Psalms 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, And does not forsake His saints;They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off. 1 Corinthians 1:8 - Who shall also confirm/sustain/keep you strong/ to the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. Do you still think that it's all about us?

I don't what you mean by, "Do you still think that it's all about us?" When did I say that is what I thought?

All is grace. God works through us. That is why works are so important. So, what are you asking? When did I say it is all about us?

Romans 3:22 - even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ,Romans 3:26 - ..and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. So these verses say faith in Jesus Christ "plus something else?"

Scripture does. It is clear in Scripture that those who have faith in Jesus obey Him and do His works. Do you deny it?

Do you need the word ALONE spelled out for you to figure out that CHRIST ALONE is Who we are placing our faith in for salvation? If I tell you that I'm going to give you $20 does that mean I'm going to give you $20 ALONE or $20 "plus something else?" Do you need me to specify $20 ALONE or else will you be expecting something else in addition to the $20? So we are to believe in Christ "plus something else" to save us? If Christ is an insufficient Savior, then what else is needed as a supplement in order to help Christ save us?

Except that isn't what Scripture says. Let me show you:
Luke 10:
¹⁶He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

If you have faith in Jesus, you also have faith in those whom He sends. That is what Scripture says:
1 Corinthians 11

¹Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Does St. Paul have faith in Christ. He wants us to have faith in him also.

Hebrews 13:7

King James Version (KJV)
⁷Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

And Scripture says we should have faith in those who speak to us the Word of God.

So, Scripture doesn't say "have faith in Christ alone." Scirpture says, "have faith in Christ and in all whom He sends."

In 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Paul clearly stated: Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain.

What does that mean? UNLESS YOU BELIEVED IN VAIN? Does that mean they are saved?

For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures. The gospel is the power of God unto salvation for everyone that BELIEVES..(Romans 1:16). To BELIEVE the gospel is to trust in Christ's finished work of redemption as the allsufficient means of our salvation. Yet you have added water and works to the gospel of grace.

Nope. Christ did. And you took it away. Let me show you what he also received:
1 Corinthians 11:22-24

King James Version (KJV)
²²What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? what shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.
²³For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
²⁴And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

And this is another Sacrament which you have also taken away from Christ's Gospel of Grace.

Galatians 1:6-7 - I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. We have access by faith into grace..(Romans 5:2). To add works to the gospel makes Christ's allsufficient finished work of redemption insufficient to save us.

We believe in Christ. That is why we obey Him and keep His Commandments and His Words.

Because they are saved, not to become saved. Saved through faith and created in Christ Jesus FIRST then UNTO/FOR good works (Ephesians 2:8-10).

That is not what Eph 2:8-10 means. It means that we are created in the image of the Son, that we might do the works which God prepared for us. But we couldn't do it without His Grace.

Notice that verse 9 says the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Are believers the unrighteous?

They are if the claim to believe but do not do the will of God:
Matthew 7:21

King James Version (KJV)
²¹Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, No, they are not the unrighteous. Why did you leave out verse 11?

What does it have to do with the question at hand? Circumcision is not one of the Ten Commandments. Why did you leave out verses 19-22?

¹⁹And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:
²⁰He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
²¹And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
²²And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

Do you understand that his faith made it possible for him to perform? And that is why it was imputed him for righteousness. Read it again from a different author:
James 2:20-23

King James Version (KJV)
²⁰But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
²¹Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
²²Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
²³And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified,but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

In other words, YOU WERE BAPTIZED.

Galatians 5:19-21 gives us the same message found in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, yet notice in verse 21 ..those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Thank you! What is sin?
1 John 3:4

King James Version (KJV)
⁴Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

So, in order to avoid sin, one must keep the Law. If you do not keep the Law, you are not of God.

That brings us right back to Romans 2:13:
Romans 2:13

King James Version (KJV)
¹³(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

To be continued...

I'll have to deal with that tomorrow.

Thanks for participating.

Sincerely,

De Maria