An objection was posted against St. Alphonsus Marie de Liguori
Quote:
Then I presume that you have read "Glories of Mary".
I sure have. A wonderful book and a treasure of Catholic devotion to Mary.
Quote:Here are quotes, with page references:
"At the command of Mary all obey-even God."
That is true. I'll go even further. At the suggestion of Mary, all obey, even God.
Let me take you to Scripture. Jesus is God, is He not?
Luke 2:51And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart.
Jesus was subject to whom? To Joseph and Mary.
And lets look at the Wedding at Cana:
John 2
1And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there: 2And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.
Mary, Jesus and His disciples were at a wedding feast.
3And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.
And Mary said to Jesus, "they have no wine". Is this a command? Is this a request? No, this is merely an observation.
What confidence this woman has that her intentions will be fulfilled.
4Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? Mine hour is not yet come.
What is this? Is this an objection from the PERFECT Son? I don't believe so, but many Protestants characterize it thus.
To me it is merely Our Lord jesting with His Mother. After all, there at a party.
5 His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.
At any rate, His mother doesn't take it seriously. She doesn't even acknowledge it. She simply turns around and says, "do as He tells you."
Note that she doesn't say, "Do MY will." She says, "Obey Him." "Do what Jesus tells you."
Mary always points us to Jesus and Mary always COMMANDS us to do God's will.
Quote:Page 155 in the paperback version that I have, a short ways into Chapter VI.
"The Way of salvation is open to none otherwise than through Mary."
Jesus Christ is our salvation and salvation came through Mary.
Revelation 12:17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
And unless you accept Mary as your mother, you will not be at war with the dragon. Because it is HER seed who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Quote:Page 143 in the paperback, but if you read the entirety of Chapter V, you will see this restated over and over and over many times so that it is abundantly clear.
I didn't deny it. I embrace that teaching. It is from Scripture. This is why THE WORD OF GOD calls Mary blessed amongst women.
Quote:"The Holy Church carefully teaches us her children with what attention and confidence we should unceasingly have recourse to this loving protectress; and for this reason commands a worship peculiar to Mary"
Here he is using the word "worship" in its archaic sense. This can be verified if we look at several types of governors who receive worship from regular folk even today:
The word "worship" has undergone a change in meaning in English. It comes from the Old English weorthscipe, which means the condition of being worthy of honor, respect, or dignity. To worship in the older, larger sense is to ascribe honor, worth, or excellence to someone, whether a sage, a magistrate, or God.
For many centuries, the term worship simply meant showing respect or honor, and an example of this usage survives in contemporary English. British subjects refer to their magistrates as "Your Worship," although Americans would say "Your Honor." This doesn’t mean that British subjects worship their magistrates as gods (in fact, they may even despise a particular magistrate they are addressing). It means they are giving them the honor appropriate to their office, not the honor appropriate to God.
Saint Worship?
Quote:- Immediately after the reference to worship, on page 107, he refers to here as the "Divine Mother" (his capitalization. This term is used from end of the book to the other.
Have you ever heard the term, "to err is human, to forgive divine". Does that mean that we believe everyone who forgives is God? Of course not!
Divine is here used as an endearment. In the Latin languages, "divina" is frequently used to speak of any woman whom we love. Be it wife, mother, daughter.
Related to the above, the word Divine also means "beautiful" and in that sense, we also use it to refer to Mary, O beautiful mother and to the women we love.
In Mary's however, it is exclusively used because she is the only Mother who gave birth to the Divine God. It is a reference to her Divine MATERNITY. Therefore, Divine Mother.
Quote:- Page 112 and elsewhere suggests that her mercy never fails, but because Jesus is also our judge, and thus it is better to go to Mary than to Jesus for salvation since we can be assured of her mercy and compassion
Yeah. What he is saying there is that Jesus is also our Judge. But Mary is not our judge. She is our advocate. They will both play the role which they are designated to play. Have you not read in Scripture:
2 Timothy 4:1
King James Version (KJV)
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
Have you not also read:
2 Corinthians 5:11
King James Version (KJV)
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
Notice that St. Paul doesn't just say, FEAR of the Lord. But TERROR. And with good reason. Let's look at another verse:
Notice that St. Paul doesn't just say, FEAR of the Lord. But TERROR. And with good reason. Let's look at another verse:
Hebrews 10:30-31
King James Version (KJV)
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
But Scripture does not describe even on instance where Mary is to be feared or where Mary judges anyone. So, St. Alphonsus is being perfectly Biblical in this teaching.
Quote:- She can be blasphemed (p114) someone which can only be done against God
Not so. Any Saint can be blasphemed. It is calling that which is holy, unholy. Saints are holy.
The question has been raised whether blasphemy against the saints differs in kind from that uttered immediately against God. While De Lugo thinks that such a difference obtains (De Poenit., disp. Xvi, n. 178 sqq.) the opposite opinion of St. Alphonsus seems more tenable, for as the latter theologian observes, the saints, ordinarily speaking, are not blasphemed because of their own excellence but because of their close relationship to God (Theol. Moral., lib. IV, n. 132).
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Blasphemy
Quote:- Though Jesus died on the cross and shed His blood for our salvation, we can only be saved through Mary since she dispenses the blood (P.116)I'd like to see the quote. I don't believe he would have used the word "only" in this regard. And this is the reason.
Although Protestants believe that the only one who suffered on Calvary that day was Jesus. We believe, because of her deep love for her Son, that Mary also suffered on that Cross.
Anyone who has children can perhaps empathize with this. I know I can. There's a song, "were you there" which touches upon this idea. But it can't come anywhere near the fact that this MOTHER watched her Son and her God being tortured and crucified.
Two people suffered on the Cross that day, Jesus and His Mother.
Quote:- She conquered Satan, hell and the demons and crushed the head of Satan (which scripture says was Jesus). P.117
Actually, the older text says it would be the Woman:
Genesis 3 15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.
We believe she crushed his head through Her Seed.
Quote:- At the name of Mary, the devils tremble and every knee bows (p.123)
Because Mary is always accompanied by her Son.
Quote:Now that I have shown that what you called impossible to be true, please answer my question -
Except I've shown you that what you said was true is impossible.
Quote:when tradition contradicts scripture, or contradicts itself, what do you do?
The Catholic Church never contradicts Scripture.
Sincerely,
You wrote--"Although Protestants believe that the only one who suffered on Calvary that day was Jesus. We believe, because of her deep love for her Son, that Mary also suffered on that Cross."
ReplyDeleteWhere in official RC teaching does it say that "Mary also suffered on that Cross"?
AnonymousFebruary 7, 2013 at 10:53 AM
ReplyDeleteWhere in official RC teaching does it say that "Mary also suffered on that Cross"?
Before I answer that question, may I ask you a question? Are you a parent? Do you have children whom you love. If they suffer, do you suffer any grief or pain with them?
I'll await your answer.
I am a parent and I suffer when they do.
ReplyDeleteAnd you don't understand that when Jesus was crucified, Mary was crucified with Him?
ReplyDeleteHave you not read in Scripture?
Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
What do you think that means?
If Gal 2:20 is what you mean that she suffered at the cross then you would be admitting Mary is a sinner since Paul is referring to the sin nature being crucified with Christ.
ReplyDeleteTo be crucified with Christ means our old self which is the source of our fallen nature is dead and crucified with Christ. This means that he spiritually participates with Christ in His crucifixion and His victory over sin and death. Now that this has happened, Christ dwells in him and empowers him to live for Christ.
AnonymousFebruary 7, 2013 at 11:04 PM
ReplyDeleteIf Gal 2:20 is what you mean that she suffered at the cross then you would be admitting Mary is a sinner since Paul is referring to the sin nature being crucified with Christ.
You look at things very differently than do we.
We believe in love. Paul is saying he is crucified with Christ because he loves Christ. Christ loves him and he loves Christ in return. Therefore he is crucified with Christ, giving himself for the Church just as Christ did:
Colossians 1:24
King James Version (KJV)
24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
1 Peter 2:21
For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
To be crucified with Christ means our old self which is the source of our fallen nature is dead and crucified with Christ. This means that he spiritually participates with Christ in His crucifixion and His victory over sin and death. Now that this has happened, Christ dwells in him and empowers him to live for Christ.
That is partially what it means. But a more perfect understanding is that he loves Christ and dies for Christ as Christ died for him. And this is what we are all called to do. To die for Christ:
John 15:13
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
This is what it means to be a Christian and Mary was the most perfect example. Because she gave her entire life to God, from the time she was conceived until this day and beyond. This is why we are her spiritual children and she is our spiritual mother.
Do you not remember the very first Commandment?
Deuteronomy 6:5
King James Version (KJV)
5 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Are you saying that Paul means by being "crucified with Christ" he was literally there that day Christ was?
ReplyDeleteWhere in Gal 2:20 does Paul say he is "he loves Christ and dies for Christ as Christ died for him.."?
As for Mary giving her life to God "from the time she was conceived.." is absurd. Scripture does not say this nor is it possible for an infant to have any idea about this. There is no way for an infant to do this.
Mary was a godly woman. It does not follow that just because she was and she is the mother of Jesus that she is also the mother of Christians. Jesus never taught this nor did His apostles.
Your church has the tendency to make the Scripture say things it does not by reading back into the Scriptures its doctrines and the speculations of men.
AnonymousFebruary 9, 2013 at 10:48 AM
ReplyDeleteAre you saying that Paul means by being "crucified with Christ" he was literally there that day Christ was?
Wow? You have to ask this question? Again, spiritual discernment is necessary and much prayer. Have you not read in Scripture:
1 Corinthians 5:3
King James Version (KJV)
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
Because of his love for Christ, he is spiritually crucified with Christ.
Where in Gal 2:20 does Paul say he is "he loves Christ and dies for Christ as Christ died for him.."?
1. Why must it be in Gal 2:20?
2. Do you doubt that St. Paul loves Christ?
3. Does St. Paul behave as a man who does not love Christ?
4. Does Scripture say that St. Paul does not love Christ?
5. How do you read the Scripture? Do you read one verse and then forget what it said and then another verse and forget the second? Does each verse stand alone in your opinion?
As for Mary giving her life to God "from the time she was conceived.." is absurd. Scripture does not say this nor is it possible for an infant to have any idea about this. There is no way for an infant to do this.
In your opinion, but Scripture says:
Jeremiah 1:5
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Mary was a godly woman.
Is a Godly woman.
It does not follow that just because she was and she is the mother of Jesus that she is also the mother of Christians. Jesus never taught this nor did His apostles.
Yes they did. That is why the Jesus gave Mary to the Beloved Disciple.
John 19:26
When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
Apparently, Protestants do not consider themselves Beloved Disciples of Christ. But we do. We see that verse as symbolic of all Christians. Jesus gave us His Mother.
And in Rev 12:17, it is confirmed. There, the Woman is represented as Mother of all Christians who bear the testimony of Christ and the Commandments of God:
Revelation 12:17
King James Version (KJV)
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Your church has the tendency to make the Scripture say things it does not by reading back into the Scriptures its doctrines and the speculations of men.
On the contrary, the New Testament was written based upon the Doctrines which Jesus Christ commanded His Church to teach. The reason your denomination can't see it is because they long ago discarded the Teachings of Christ and substituted their own.
Your “spiritual discernment” method is not the way to understand the meaning of Scripture. You are doing what cults do. They say the same kinds of things you do. They do not exegete Scripture nor do you. I know Scripture very well and we are at this point concentrating of Galatians 2:20 and its meaning. I understand what Paul means by being crucified with Christ. Paul does love Christ and the supreme goal of his life was to know Him and please Him. However, there is no place where he says he “dies for Christ as Christ died for him”. We are to understand verses in context and not by reading into them doctrines. Roman Catholics have a nasty habit of doing this so they can support their doctrines.
ReplyDeleteAn infant cannot give its life to God. God knows the path of man fully. Jeremiah 1:5 does not support the idea that Mary gave her life to God from the time she was conceived. No Scripture does.
Jesus gave the care of His mother to John to take care of her. John was an apostle and he never speaks of himself as representing the church nor Mary as being the mother of the church. No one does in the New Testament. That idea is totally foreign to the New Testament. Secondly, Mary is not your mother anymore than your mother is mine also. Mary is only the mother of Jesus, James, Josie, Simon, Judas and Joseph. See Matthew 13:55
There are many things your church teaches that Jesus or His apostles never taught. The papacy, indulgences, purgatory and the Marian dogmas to name a few we can discuss.
It’s in the Bible that we find the teachings of Christ.
What do you think that they teach in Protestant churches if not the Bible?.
AnonymousFebruary 9, 2013 at 10:53 PM
ReplyDeleteYour “spiritual discernment” method is not the way to understand the meaning of Scripture.
It is the method taught in Scripture:
2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
You are doing what cults do. They say the same kinds of things you do. They do not exegete Scripture nor do you.
Scripture tells us exactly how to understand the Word spoken therein. And it is you who contradict the Word of God:
Romans 7:6
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
I know Scripture very well and we are at this point concentrating of Galatians 2:20 and its meaning. I understand what Paul means by being crucified with Christ. Paul does love Christ and the supreme goal of his life was to know Him and please Him. However, there is no place where he says he “dies for Christ as Christ died for him”.
Acts 21:13
Then Paul answered, What mean ye to weep and to break mine heart? for I am ready not to be bound only, but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus.
We are to understand verses in context and not by reading into them doctrines.
That is what you do. You read your Protestant doctrines into the Scripture. But the New Testament is written based upon Catholic Doctrine. For Jesus Christ did not write Scripture. He established a Church and commanded that Church to teach His Doctrines. Based upon those Doctrines, the Catholic Church wrote the New Testament.
Roman Catholics have a nasty habit of doing this so they can support their doctrines.
On the contrary, it is Protestants who read their traditions of men into the Scripture.
An infant cannot give its life to God. God knows the path of man fully. Jeremiah 1:5 does not support the idea that Mary gave her life to God from the time she was conceived. No Scripture does.
God knew Mary before she was conceived. Just as He knows everyone before they are conceived. And before she was conceived, He protected her from sin because He knew that she would be worthy of bearing His Son because of her righteousness.
Jesus gave the care of His mother to John to take care of her. John was an apostle and he never speaks of himself as representing the church nor Mary as being the mother of the church.
Is that your way of denying that you or an Protestant are beloved disciples? Because we believe that Jesus loves us. Therefore, we believe that we are beloved disciples to whom Jesus gave His Mother.
No one does in the New Testament.
You don't. And because you don't, you read that into Scripture.
That idea is totally foreign to the New Testament.
ReplyDeleteIt is foreign to you. But it is explicit in the New Testament.
Secondly, Mary is not your mother anymore than your mother is mine also.
Mary is my spiritual mother as God gave her to me and all Christians.
Mary is only the mother of Jesus
True.
, James, Josie, Simon, Judas and Joseph. See Matthew 13:55
You need to read the entire Gospel. James, Joses, Simon, and Jude are children of the other Mary, the cousin of Our Lady:
John 19:25
Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.
Mark 15:40
There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome;
There are many things your church teaches that Jesus or His apostles never taught.
Not one.
The papacy,
Matt 16:18-19; John 21:15-17
indulgences,
Matthew 19:21
purgatory
1 Cor 3:15
and the Marian dogmas to name a few we can discuss.
Luke 1:28 kecharitomene "ever full of grace" Mary without sin
Luke 1:43 Mother of God
Revelation 12:1 Assumption and Queen of Heaven
Revelation 12:17 Mother of all believers
We can discuss them anytime.
It’s in the Bible that we find the teachings of Christ.
And in the Teaching of the Church:
Matthew 28:19-20
King James Version (KJV)
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
What do you think that they teach in Protestant churches if not the Bible?.
Traditions of men.
If God gave Mary to be the mother of the church why is it that not one writer of Scripture ever teaches this?
ReplyDeleteSt. John writes it twice.
ReplyDeleteIn the Gospel of St. John:
John 19:25-27
King James Version (KJV)
25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.
26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.
And Rev 12:17
Revelation 12:17
King James Version (KJV)
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
The rest do not deny it. That is enough.
You are reading into what John is writing. All that Jesus is doing is giving the care of His mother to John. You need a lot more than this to demonstrate that Mary is the mother of all Christians. We also know that no church or believer in the first few centuries believed that Mary was the mother of all Christians. No bishops or councils said this.
ReplyDeleteAnonymousFebruary 10, 2013 at 10:02 AM
DeleteYou are reading into what John is writing. All that Jesus is doing is giving the care of His mother to John. You need a lot more than this to demonstrate that Mary is the mother of all Christians. We also know that no church or believer in the first few centuries believed that Mary was the mother of all Christians. No bishops or councils said this.
From the first century, the Early Church Fathers taught that Mary was the New Eve. That means they knew that Mary is the mother of all the living. The living are those who live in Christ. St. Justin Martyr, 160 ad, said:
For Eve, who was a virgin and undefiled, having conceived the word of the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy, when the angel Gabriel announced the good tidings to her that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her, and the power of the Highest would overshadow her: wherefore also the Holy Thing begotten of her is the Son of God; and she replied, 'Be it unto me according to thy word.' And by her has He been born, to whom we have proved so many Scriptures refer, and by whom God destroys both the serpent and those angels and men who are like him; but works deliverance from death to those who repent of their wickedness and believe upon Him.
And 20 years later, St. Irenaeus said:
.... And thus also it was that the knot of Eve's disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith.
Eve was the Mother of all the living.
Mary is the New Eve and thus the Mother of all those who live in Christ. By her obedience, she untied the knot which Eve tied. She freed humanity from the grip of sin.
This statement by Ligouri is blasphemous:
ReplyDelete"Quote:Here are quotes, with page references:
"At the command of Mary all obey-even God."
When Mary asked Jesus to help at Cana did she think she was asking God Himself or her human son Jesus? Notice in the Cana incident she was not commanding Jesus at all but rather making a request of Him.
You wrote: "Mary always points us to Jesus and Mary always COMMANDS us to do God's will."
How many times in the gospels do we see Mary pointing people to Jesus?
Does Mary command God today? Of course not. No one has the power or authority to command God for anything.
AnonymousFebruary 10, 2013 at 11:55 AM
DeleteThis statement by Ligouri is blasphemous:
"Quote:Here are quotes, with page references:
"At the command of Mary all obey-even God."
Now when understood in its proper light. She is the most righteous person that ever walked the earth, second only to Jesus. And therefore her prayers are the most effectual of any man's:
James 5:16
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
When Mary asked Jesus to help at Cana did she think she was asking God Himself
She knew that He is God, yes.
or her human son Jesus?
Both.
Notice in the Cana incident she was not commanding Jesus at all but rather making a request of Him.
Again, spiritual reflection is necessary. Mary was so confident in her Son's obedience that she did not even feel it necessary to pronounce the words. She simply told the servants to obey her Son. How she obeyed her command was up to Him. She knew that He would somehow obey it.
You wrote: "Mary always points us to Jesus and Mary always COMMANDS us to do God's will."
How many times in the gospels do we see Mary pointing people to Jesus?
1. Every time she is mentioned. If it weren't for Jesus, Mary would not be mentioned at all.
Matthew 1:16;
And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
Matthew 1:18; Acts 1:14
Everytime that Mary is mentioned in Scripture, Jesus is also mentioned. But that is not true the other way around.
Therefore, Mary always points us to Jesus.
2. And everytime she is mentioned in Scripture, Mary is reflecting upon Jesus or upon God. Therefore, again, Mary always points us to Jesus or to God.
Does Mary command God today? Of course not. No one has the power or authority to command God for anything.
Again, this takes spiritual reflection. All righteous men command the power of God because they do the Will of God and God will not deny them:
John 9:
31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.
Do you know who Jesus called the greatest human to have ever lived? It was not His mother.
ReplyDeleteWhere does the Scripture say that Mary was the most " righteous person that ever walked the earth" after the Lord Christ? (If she was truly sinless she would be equal to Christ in moral purity.
Mary asking Jesus to do something at Cana would not mean that she is asking something today from the Lord Christ for you. For that to be true, you would have to have some explicit command-teaching in Scripture that we are to pray to Mary specifically. The fact is that there is not one prayer to her for anything. What is clear in Scripture, is that we are to ask in the name of Christ and never in the name of a creature.
What do you "everytime she is mentioned in Scripture, Mary is reflecting upon Jesus or upon God. Therefore, again, Mary always points us to Jesus or to God?" What do you mean by reflecting?
AnonymousFebruary 10, 2013 at 10:58 PM
DeleteDo you know who Jesus called the greatest human to have ever lived? It was not His mother.
You have two problems there.
Here is the verse you are talking about:
Matthew 11:11
King James Version (KJV)
11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
1. Jesus is also born of woman.
2. You have neglected the second part which says, "the least in the Kingdom is greater than he".
Here is the Catholic understanding which is in line with Catholic Tradition. Jesus is there saying that St. John the Baptist is greater than anyone who has not been regenerated, that is to say, born again in the Holy Spirit. Since the Virgin Mary was united to the Holy Spirit and therefore always in the Kingdom of God, she and Christ and all who were in the Kingdom of God were greater than he.
Where does the Scripture say that Mary was the most " righteous person that ever walked the earth" after the Lord Christ?
Kecharitomene is used only once in Scripture. And in so doing describes Mary.
(If she was truly sinless she would be equal to Christ in moral purity.
God alone knows if that is true. However, it would mean that she achieved the command which Christ gave us all:
Matthew 5:48
Mary asking Jesus to do something at Cana would not mean that she is asking something today from the Lord Christ for you. For that to be true, you would have to have some explicit command-teaching in Scripture that we are to pray to Mary specifically.
Again, we read the Scripture differently. We read it according to the Spirit and letter. Not the letter alone because the letter kills.
You are reading according to the letter, therefore you don't understand the underlying Spiritual meaning of the words.
The fact is that there is not one prayer to her for anything. What is clear in Scripture, is that we are to ask in the name of Christ and never in the name of a creature.
Matthew 10:41
He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.
Luke 16:24
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
What do you "everytime she is mentioned in Scripture, Mary is reflecting upon Jesus or upon God. Therefore, again, Mary always points us to Jesus or to God?" What do you mean by reflecting?
Luke 2:19
But Mary kept all these things, and pondered them in her heart.
Luke 2:51
And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart.
Jesus was born of a woman but He is unique. John on the other was greatest because--" John's preeminent greatness lies in his function of announcing the imminence of the kingdom (⇒ Matthew 3:1). But to be in the kingdom is so great a privilege that the least who has it is greater than the Baptist." NAB- Rc translation notes.
DeleteMary was not always in the Kingdom. The kingdom was not established until Jesus was doing His ministry brought in the Kingdom by His death and resurrection.
It is true you read scripture differently and that is you read RC doctrines into your understanding of it.
Anonymous
DeleteJesus was born of a woman but He is unique.
Not in that respect. Every human being except Adam and Eve were born of women.. Including Jesus.
John on the other was greatest because--" John's preeminent greatness lies in his function of announcing the imminence of the kingdom (⇒ Matthew 3:1). But to be in the kingdom is so great a privilege that the least who has it is greater than the Baptist." NAB- Rc translation notes.
Very good. And Mary was in the Kingdom because she is the Mother of the King. Do you deny it?
Mary was not always in the Kingdom. The kingdom was not established until Jesus was doing His ministry brought in the Kingdom by His death and resurrection.
Mary was always in the Kingdom because she never sinned.
It is true you read scripture differently and that is you read RC doctrines into your understanding of it.
New Testament Scripture is based upon Catholic Doctrine. Protestant read their man made doctrines into Scripture.
Who says that a church father speaks for the entire church at the time they write? After all, the church is spread out over large areas and is composed of millions of people.
ReplyDeleteWhat we really have with the church fathers are men expressing their opinions on issues. Their opinions are not necessarily true nor binding on the entire church in what it believes.
Who says that a church father speaks for the entire church at the time they write?
DeleteThe Magisterium.
Most of the Church Fathers were already Bishops when they were writing their treatises and lessons to their congregations. Through the millennia, the Catholic Church has sifted through their teachings and decided which is worth keeping and which to discard: 1 Thessalonians 5:21
After all, the church is spread out over large areas and is composed of millions of people.
True. That is why leadership of the Church is centered in one Office established by Christ.
What we really have with the church fathers are men expressing their opinions on issues. Their opinions are not necessarily true nor binding on the entire church in what it believes.
True. The Church, by virtue of its authority to bind and loose, has sifted through their teachings and decided which are true and orthodox and which are not.
Where does your church say that the church fathers speak for the entire church at the time they wrote? What documents of a pope or council says this?
DeleteAm I to believe they were popes?
For the first few centuries Christianity did not have one center. Jerusalem and Antioch and a few others were centers in the early centuries. It was not until the 4-6th centuries where Rome began to dominate because of its wealth and proximity to the emperor.
Anonymous
DeleteWhere does your church say that the church fathers speak for the entire church at the time they wrote? What documents of a pope or council says this?
As I said before. Each writing is taken on its own merits. Here's what I answered above:
The Magisterium.
Most of the Church Fathers were already Bishops when they were writing their treatises and lessons to their congregations. Through the millennia, the Catholic Church has sifted through their teachings and decided which is worth keeping and which to discard: 1 Thessalonians 5:21
Am I to believe they were popes?
Popes and councils. Many of them have approved the writings of the Early Church Fathers.
For the first few centuries Christianity did not have one center. Jerusalem and Antioch and a few others were centers in the early centuries. It was not until the 4-6th centuries where Rome began to dominate because of its wealth and proximity to the emperor.
Rome became the center when St. Peter arrived there.
How do you know that Rome became a center of Christianity when Peter arrived? Remember what RC scholars have said: "We must conclude that the New Testament provides no basis for the notion that before the apostles died, they ordained one man for each of the churches they founded..."Was there a Bishop of Rome in the First Century?"...the available evidence indicates that the church in Rome was led by a college of presbyters, rather than by a single bishop, for at least several decades of the second century (Sullivan F.A. From Apostles to Bishops: the development of the episcopacy in the early church. Newman Press, Mahwah (NJ), 2001, p. 80,221-222).
ReplyDeleteDo we agree that the church fathers had different opinions about Mary?
Do we also agree that no father can be said to speak for the entire church at the time they lived?
Anonymous
DeleteHow do you know that Rome became a center of Christianity when Peter arrived?
Fron history and Tradition.
Remember what RC scholars have said: "We must conclude that the New Testament provides no basis for the notion that before the apostles died, they ordained one man for each of the churches they founded..."Was there a Bishop of Rome in the First Century?"...the available evidence indicates that the church in Rome was led by a college of presbyters, rather than by a single bishop, for at least several decades of the second century (Sullivan F.A. From Apostles to Bishops: the development of the episcopacy in the early church. Newman Press, Mahwah (NJ), 2001, p. 80,221-222).
They are in error. The Early Church Fathers had long ago said that St. Peter was the bishop of Rome:
Irenaeus
But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles. Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [A.D. 189]).
Clement of Alexandria
[T]he blessed Peter, the chosen, the preeminent, the first among the disciples, for whom alone with himself the Savior paid the tribute [Matt. 17:27], quickly grasped and understood their meaning. And what does he say? "Behold, we have left all and have followed you" [Matt. 19:2 7, Mark 10:28] (Who is the Rich Man That is Saved? 21:3-5 [A.D. 200]).
Tertullian
[T]he Lord said to Peter, "On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven" [Matt. 16:18-19]. ... Upon you, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to you the keys, not to the Church; and whatever you shall have bound or you shall have loosed, not what they shall have bound or they shall have loosed (Modesty 21:9-10 [A.D. 220]).
Do we agree that the church fathers had different opinions about Mary?
The early Church Fathers had some opinions which were not in line with the Church. The Church only approves their orthodox opinions.
Do we also agree that no father can be said to speak for the entire church at the time they lived?
Can we agree that the Church decides which of the Early Church Father's statements are orthodox?