De Maria said...
Hi Dan,
Godismyjudge said...
Hi De Maria,
My response was that scripture handles the "licences to sin" missunderstanding by clearly teaching conversion is not a licence to sin, like in 1 John.
Does 1 John say, "Hey, Rom 6:1 doesn't say what you think it says."?
Does that not answer your question? If not, could you please rephrase the question, because maybe I didn't understand it?
Sure. First, I'll illustrate my point. You and I are an example. We are both interpreting Scripture. We both disagree with each other's interpretation. But Scripture hasn't stopped the one who is wrong and tapped him on the shoulder to say, "Hey, you're wrong. You don't understand what I'm saying." No. It takes a living, breathing, human being to correct another on the interpretation of Scripture.
You're point is, to my understanding, that Scripture will correct the person that does not interpret its content correctly. I want to know how Scripture does it? Scripture may contain the answer, but how does Scripture point the person to the answer?
I am very supprized you think we don't need scriptures to dicern between good and evil.
Scripture says:
Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
That seems to go against the very point of Hebrews 5 & 6, as well as many other passages.
How, precisely?
While conscience helps us detect evil behavior, it's less helpful in detecting evil doctrine.
Again, Scripture tells us that Scripture can not protect itself from people twisting its meaning:
2 Peter 3:
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
More helpful is the preaching of the Church.
2 Timothy 4
King James Version (KJV)
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
Godismyjudge said...
Hi De Maria,
My response was that scripture handles the "licences to sin" missunderstanding by clearly teaching conversion is not a licence to sin, like in 1 John.
Does 1 John say, "Hey, Rom 6:1 doesn't say what you think it says."?
Does that not answer your question? If not, could you please rephrase the question, because maybe I didn't understand it?
Sure. First, I'll illustrate my point. You and I are an example. We are both interpreting Scripture. We both disagree with each other's interpretation. But Scripture hasn't stopped the one who is wrong and tapped him on the shoulder to say, "Hey, you're wrong. You don't understand what I'm saying." No. It takes a living, breathing, human being to correct another on the interpretation of Scripture.
You're point is, to my understanding, that Scripture will correct the person that does not interpret its content correctly. I want to know how Scripture does it? Scripture may contain the answer, but how does Scripture point the person to the answer?
I am very supprized you think we don't need scriptures to dicern between good and evil.
Scripture says:
Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
That seems to go against the very point of Hebrews 5 & 6, as well as many other passages.
How, precisely?
While conscience helps us detect evil behavior, it's less helpful in detecting evil doctrine.
Again, Scripture tells us that Scripture can not protect itself from people twisting its meaning:
2 Peter 3:
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
More helpful is the preaching of the Church.
2 Timothy 4
King James Version (KJV)
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
So you are saying that you know the Church's teaching on contraception is infallible, even thought it hasn't been defined by a Pope speaking from the Chair of Peter or an ecummenical council with the Pope?
Correct. All the teachings of the Church are infallible.
How could you know it's infallible apart from such means?
By faith in Christ. Because of my faith IN Christ I live by the faith OF Christ.
Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
The faith OF Christ is passed down by the Church which He established.
I am not asking how it could be infallible, but how you could know it's infallible.
Because Scripture tells me so:
Ephesians 3:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
I also ask that in light of Luther's point that historically Popes and Councils have often contradicted themselves and scriptures.
I prefer to believe Scripture. Scripture says that the Church is the Pillar of Truth.
God be with you,
Dan
And with you.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Great defense De Maria! This is the entire problem with sola Scriptura. I love scripture and even I have difficulty in understanding a lot of what is being said, especially in some of Paul's writings. But when I read the Old Testament books, I can get some clarity of what Paul is talking about but there are things spoken rather enigmatically, that need clarification. Thus who better to get the answers from, than from someone (or group) who has been handed down the meanings of these very versus in Scripture. THAT is the Church.
ReplyDeleteGod Bless
Exactly! There are some things in Scripture that can't be understood properly unless we first understand the Tradition of Jesus Christ which is passed down through the Catholic Church.
DeleteThanks Mark.