To understand this discussion between Jesse and I, one must understand that Jesse is trying to refute Calvinism with Protestant doctrine. Unfortunately for Jesse, he doesn't realize that Protestant doctrine logically leads to Calvinist thinking. Calvin did not come up with these things in a vaccuum. The groundwork was already laid down by Luther. If good works have nothing to do with salvation, then double predestination must be true. Double predestination is the idea that God creates some people for hell and some for heaven. And, according to that Protestant teaching, there's nothing people can do to change what God has ordained. Ever heard of "irresistible grace"? Note that both Calvin and Luther, deny free will.
But, I digress. Let's move on to the ongoing discussion.
Hi Jesse,
In a recent discussion, on your blog you said to me.
June 26, 2018 at 8:07 PM
De Maria,
I'd love to respond thoroughly, but cannot. It is far beyond the scope of this article to refute your misinterpretations of Scripture. Also, much of what I
would have to say would be repetition from previous discussions. In short, the "doers" of the law are "justified" because their hearts have been changed (Romans 2:14-15). God looks at our works in judgement because they are the evidence of our faithfulness to Him. The conclusion of Paul's entire argument is that works cannot save us (Romans 3:27-28). So it is evident that you have misapplied Scripture.
To which I say:
I'd love to respond thoroughly, but cannot.
I know. Because Scripture refutes you.
It is far beyond the scope of this article
No, it isn't. Calvinists agree with you and their conclusion is a logical deduction of their false teachings. They believe in double predestination. Therefore, there is neither merit, nor value nor necessity of works.
Your conclusion that salvation is not merit based is illogical since you believe that one must have faith in order to be saved. Faith is a meritorious work in God's eyes.
to refute your misinterpretations of Scripture.
It is you who misunderstands and misinterprets Scripture.
Also, much of what I would have to say would be repetition from previous discussions.
Which previous discussions? Provide a link so I can see what you said.
In short, the "doers" of the law are "justified" because their hearts have been changed (Romans 2:14-15).
They were justified BY GOD because they did good deeds. Look at the previous 12 verses.
God looks at our works in judgement because they are the evidence of our faithfulness to Him.
Exactly! God looks at our works in judgment in order to determine if they are meritorious. Look at what He says to Abraham.
Genesis 22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
BECAUSE YOU HAVE DONE THIS THING.
The conclusion of Paul's entire argument is that works cannot save us (Romans 3:27-28).
Only if you take the verse out of context. Do you really think that Scripture contradicts itself? Do you really believe that St. Paul, who was inspired by the Holy Spirit, would say one thing in one verse and contradict himself a few paragraphs later?
Here is what St. Paul says over and over again:
Galatians 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
1 Corinthians 6:8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren. 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
So it is evident that you have misapplied Scripture.
You are 100% wrong with your Papist ideology. It is you and the Pope you worship who abuse these passages. God does NOT require good works for salvation, rather good works are we we do BECAUSE we are saved.
ReplyDeleteOh, and faith isn't a work in God's eyes. Throughout Scripture faith is contrasted with works.
Calvinism may be a "Protestant" theology, but you need to remember that the only Christians who are "protestants" are those who are of the denominations which took part in the Reformation: Lutheran, Presbyterian, Episcopal, etc. There were Christians outside the Papist faith for centuries who were persecuted and executed by Papists for the horrible crime of disagreeing with the un-Christian Papist organization.
the Bible refutes both Papism as well as Calvinism.
Glenn E. ChatfieldAugust 7, 2018 at 8:47 AM
DeleteYou are 100% wrong with your Papist ideology.
On the contrary, Glenn, it is you who are wrong.
It is you and the Pope you worship
I don't worship the Pope. I worship God. And it is God, in the person of Jesus Christ, who established the Papacy (Matt 16:18-19).
who abuse these passages.
No, It is you and those who taught you who continue to abuse many if not most of the Bible.
God does NOT require good works for salvation,
Yes, He does. Try getting into heaven without them.
Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
rather good works are we we do BECAUSE we are saved.
On the contrary, they are saved who do good works. And they are condemned who do not. See Matt 25:31-46. See also:
Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Oh, and faith isn't a work in God's eyes. Throughout Scripture faith is contrasted with works.
On the contrary, faith is a special work which is the foundation of all good works. Faith is believing. See John 6:29
Calvinism may be a "Protestant" theology, but you need to remember that the only Christians who are "protestants" are those who are of the denominations which took part in the Reformation:
That's not true. The only true Christians are Christians such as Catholics and Orthodox, who receive the true Sacraments.
Lutheran, Presbyterian, Episcopal, etc. There were Christians outside the Papist faith for centuries who were persecuted and executed by Papists for the horrible crime of disagreeing with the un-Christian Papist organization.
Those denominations are heretical and were started in the 1500's. Jesus Christ established the Catholic Church.
the Bible refutes both Papism as well as Calvinism.
Wrong again. The Catholic Church wrote the Bible. Get the facts straight. Jesus Christ established the Catholic Church. Commanded the Church to Teach. And in order to support Her Teachings, the Catholic Church wrote the Bible. All Bibles, even the error prone Protestant Bibles and the horrendously translated JW Bible, support Catholic Teaching. Hard as Protestants have tried, the Word of God can't be suppressed. Only the Catholic Church Teaches the unblemished Word of God.
You say you don’t worship the Pope, but the Pope is the final authority for Papists, who disregard what the Bible actually says — what GOD actually says.
ReplyDeleteJesus did not establish the papacy, and your abuse of that Matthew passage is just parroting the pope lies long after the papacy was established so as to give themselves credence. Jesus is saying Peter’s confession is the rock upon which he will build the church. Christ did not build the church on any man.
Nowhere, absolutely NOWHERE in scripture does it say good works are required for salvation. Good works are the outworking of salvation. Faith alone is what saves, and I can cite many verses to prove that. Even Isa. 64:6 points out the lack of value of works toward righteousness — filthy rags (literally, menstrual cloths). You Papists keep getting the cart before the horse. 2 Tim 1:9-10, Tit. 3:5, Eph 2:8-9
The “justified” is before men, not before God.
Faith is NOT a work. How many times does the Bible have to contrast the two? Lk 17:7-10; Rom. 3:28, 4:5, 9:32, 11:6; Gal. 2:16; Eph. 2:8-9;
The only true Christians are Christians such as Catholics and Orthodox, who receive the true Sacraments.
Ah, the typical cult statement! Only YOUR church has real Christians. Find you “true sacraments” (other than baptism and the Lord’s supper) in the Bible, and find them called sacraments! You won’t find them.
It is PAPISM which is heretical with its worship of Mary, the idolatry of the mass, etc.
The Bible was written long before Roman Catholicism existed. Get YOUR history straight. The O.T. was completed B.C., and the N.T. completed by the end of the 1st century. The RCC didn’t exist before the end of the 4th Century.
Your last paragraph only demonstrates your complete ignorance of the history of the Papist Church and of the Transmission and translation of the Bible. If you want a good short history of the RCC, visit my blog and see the “History Lesson” series I wrote in July. FACTS.
Your comment is one of the most ignorant ones I’ve ever read from Catholics.
Glenn said:
DeleteYou say you don’t worship the Pope,
That’s the only correct thing you’ve said in your entire response.
but the Pope is the final authority for Papists,
On the contrary, God is the final authority for Catholics. It is God who established the Papacy. See Matt 16:18. And it is God who instructs us to obey the Church and it’s Leaders (Heb 13:7).
We contrast that with your final authority, which is your own mind. That is in spite of the fact that Scripture says:
Proverbs 3:5-6 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
who disregard what the Bible actually says — what GOD actually says.
On the contrary, it is you who reject what the Bible says. Read Heb 13:17. Then tell me, which leader in the Church do you submit to and obey? Which Leader in the Church do you acknowledge to report your sins to God?
Glenn also said,
DeleteJesus did not establish the papacy, and your abuse of that Matthew passage is just parroting the pope lies long after the papacy was established so as to give themselves credence. Jesus is saying Peter’s confession is the rock upon which he will build the church. Christ did not build the church on any man.
Actually, He did. He built the Church upon Peter. AND He built the Church upon Peter’s confession. It is impossible to separate Peter from His confession. It is he who uttered it. It is he who lived it. It is he upon whom Jesus Christ established the Church because of it.
In Matt 16:18-19, Jesus is speaking to Simon and the Apostles, about Simon Bar Jonah. And Jesus is describing Simon as “the Rock” upon whom He will build His Church. He is not speaking about anyone else. And when He gives away the keys, He uses a singular pronoun, addressing the person to whom He gives the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven. Simon Bar Jonah, aka as Cephas, Rock or Peter. He does not hand the keys to anyone else. He is not describing anyone else.
And by centering on the confession, you center upon the man who uttered the confession. St. Peter is not the first man to utter this confession in the New Testament. Nathaniel does it the very first time he sees Jesus:
John 1:47-49
King James Version (KJV)
47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!
48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.
49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.
Yet Jesus does not give Nathaniel any keys. Therefore, it is clear that a simple confession is not enough. Jesus appointed Simon to be the Rock upon which the Church was built and He gave him the keys to the Kingdom of heaven based upon his confession. You can't separate the man from his faith.
Glenn continues:
DeleteNowhere, absolutely NOWHERE in scripture does it say good works are required for salvation.
On the contrary, Scripture frequently says that good works are a prerequisite for salvation.
Matthew 19:17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Romans 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
1 Timothy 2:15
Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
Good works are the outworking of salvation.
Good works are the outworking of conversion. Those who convert must show their faith in good works.
Acts 26:20
But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
Faith alone is what saves,
Faith alone is dead.
James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
and I can cite many verses to prove that.
All you can prove is your misunderstanding of Scripture.
Even Isa. 64:6 points out the lack of value of works toward righteousness — filthy rags (literally, menstrual cloths).
In that verse, he’s talking about works performed by those who reject God. Listen to Isaiah in another verse:
Isaiah 64: 4 For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.
Notice how St. Paul paraphrased that part of the verse.
1 Corinthians 2:9
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
Isaiah 64:5 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.
Isaiah continues. Do you see that God has prepared heaven for those who work righteousness? Open your eyes.
continuing with Glenn:
DeleteYou Papists keep getting the cart before the horse. 2 Tim 1:9-10, Tit. 3:5, Eph 2:8-9
On the contrary, you simply don’t understand those verses. Lets go through them. But first, let’s visit a verse which Protestants tend to ignore.
2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Protestants are these who wrest the writings of St. Paul, to their own destruction.
2 Tim 1:9-10
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, ….
Protestants cling to this as though St. Paul said, “you don’t need to do any works.” On the contrary, throughout his writings, St. Paul says that we must do good works. So, what does, “not according to our works” mean? Well, it means what Isaiah said and what St. Paul paraphrased. Eye has not seen nor ear heard the greatness which God has prepared for the man who loves Him.
In other words, if we were saved in accordance to our works, it would be a paltry salvation. How much good have you done? Have you given your child a toy? In accordance with that work, you will receive a toy. But God doesn’t reward our works in accordance to their earthly value. He rewards our works in accordance with His love and mercy.
But, guess what. St. Paul doesn’t say that God will reward your lack of good works. In fact, he says just the opposite. See Romans 2:6-13.
Tit. 3:5
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Excellent! Thanks for bringing this up. Have you noticed the words which I have bolded below.
Not by works of righteousness which we have done
WHICH WE HAVE DONE. In other words, God doesn’t save people who have NOT DONE any righteous works. He saves only those who have done works of righteousness. But the works themselves do not save them. God saves them by His mercy. Because we don’t buy our way into heaven. It is God who judges the value of our works. We can’t go around saying, “I’m saved because of my great faith.” God alone decides the value of your faith. God alone decides the value of your works.
Eph 2:8-9 and 10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
I’ll just add one more verse to give the excerpt context.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
So, St. Paul, here describes our salvation by the washing of regeneration. Huh? Yeah. Notice the similarity with Titus 3:5. We are saved by God’s mercy. Mercy is grace. Through the washing of regeneration. What is that? That’s the Sacrament of Baptism. Let’s take you to St. Peter:
1 Peter 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us….
And notice v. 10. What are the works for which we were created? And what are the works which God has ordained from the beginning that we should walk in them? THE TEN COMMANDMENTS.
The “justified” is before men, not before God.
God’s is the only justification that matters.
And we conclude with Glenn's remarks:
DeleteIt is PAPISM which is heretical with its worship of Mary,
Catholics don’t worship Mary. But we acknowledge the honor which God has given her.
Luke 1:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
Notice that GOD sent the Angel to Mary. and God sent a message by this Angel. God said that Mary is highly favoured. We acknowledge this. You decry it.
the idolatry of the mass,
On the contrary, Jesus said that He is the bread of life and that the bread He gives is His flesh for the life of the world. We believe Him. You don’t.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
The Bible was written long before Roman Catholicism existed. Get YOUR history straight. The O.T. was completed B.C., and the N.T. completed by the end of the 1st century. The RCC didn’t exist before the end of the 4th Century.
Get your history straight. The OT was written before the Catholic Church was established by Jesus Christ. But it was not bound in one book together with the New Testament, which was written by Catholics. And it is the Catholic Church which sorted through the thousands of Old Testament literature and denoted the ones which are inspired by God.
Your last paragraph only demonstrates your complete ignorance of the history of the Papist Church and of the Transmission and translation of the Bible. If you want a good short history of the RCC, visit my blog and see the “History Lesson” series I wrote in July. FACTS.
Your comment is one of the most ignorant ones I’ve ever read from Catholics.
Neh. Protestants don’t go beyond the coming of Luther. Catholics understand the entirety of Salvation history and the Catholic Church is the entity which God appointed to Teach His Word, infallibly.
Ephesians 3:10
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
God is NOT the final authority for Catholics — Catholic dogma is, and most of it has nothing to do with God. My final authority is indeed God and what He has revealed in the Bible.
DeleteThere is no ONE leader of the Church other than Christ. Hebrews 13:17 is about obey the LOCAL leadership in the individual assembly. Nice twisting of Scripture.
Your Papist interpretation in regards to Peter being the “rock” wasn’t known until the early popes used it to justify their position over everyone else. Funny how it wasn’t used like that before then if it was to be interpreted that way. Oh, and by the way, ALL the apostles were given the “keys.” In Matt. 16:15-19 Jesus says he “will give” the keys, and in Matt 18:18 he gave the keys to ALL the apostles, not just Peter. Nice try.
If works are needed for salvation, then what about the guy on the cross next to Jesus who never had a chance to do works; what about new converts who get killed (e.g. combat) prior to being able to do any works? Look at John 6:29 to see what the “work of God” truly is.
You dismiss my evidence about works by saying I don’t understand the passages. I fully understand because I am able to read and comprehend and don’t need the RCC to tell me what it says.
Catholics do indeed worship Mary, and ascribe to her the characters of God, as I PROVE here:
https://watchmansbagpipes.blogspot.com/2010/06/mary-mother-of-church-is-not-mary-of.html
The Mass is idolatry, as I PROVE here:
https://watchmansbagpipes.blogspot.com/2010/06/catholic-eucharist-unbiblical-and.html
Whether or not the O.T. was bound in one book is irrelevant. It was completed B.C. The N.T. was written by Christians (‘catholic” in the sense of “universal” church), not by the RCC which didn’t exist. You really need to study your church history. The RCC was NOT established by Christ, but by the devil.
You keep railing at “Protestants,” but they only account for a small percentage of non-Catholic Christians. You don’t seem to understand what a Protestant is, nor do you seem to know history where thousands of non-RCC Christians have existed from the 1st Century until the present day. Remember you satanic popes persecuted and murdered those who refused to bow to Rome — find in Scripture where God tells his church to murder those who disagree with it.
You are so brainwashed that you can’t think for yourself. You are unteachable.
Have fun in your lost and apostate life because you will not see salvation.
Hello Glen,
DeleteGod is NOT the final authority for Catholics — Catholic dogma is, and most of it has nothing to do with God. My final authority is indeed God and what He has revealed in the Bible.
Your final authority is your mind and your misinterpretation of the Bible. The Catholic Church was established by Jesus Christ.
There is no ONE leader of the Church other than Christ. Hebrews 13:17 is about obey the LOCAL leadership in the individual assembly.
Do you submit to and obey the local leader or any leader except yourself and your interpretation of the Bible?
Nice twisting of Scripture.
It is you who twists Scripture.
Your Papist interpretation in regards to Peter being the “rock” wasn’t known until the early popes used it to justify their position over everyone else. Funny how it wasn’t used like that before then if it was to be interpreted that way. Oh, and by the way, ALL the apostles were given the “keys.” In Matt. 16:15-19 Jesus says he “will give” the keys, and in Matt 18:18 he gave the keys to ALL the apostles, not just Peter. Nice try.
Look at the verse. In Greek, the pronoun “you” is the singular form. Unlike English, it is not plural. Jesus was speaking to and about Peter. In Matt 18:18, Jesus did not give the keys to anyone. He simply acknowledged that they could open and lock things in heaven because He had already given the keys to Peter, the man He appointed to lead the Church.
If works are needed for salvation, then what about the guy on the cross next to Jesus who never had a chance to do works;
DeleteThanks for the question. Just as you don't understand the nature of faith, you also misunderstand the nature of works. St. Dismas did many works. St. Dismas is one of my favourite Saints and I love to educate Protestants about him.
St. Dismas went straight to heaven because:
1st. Jesus is sovereign God. His Word is law. So, therefore St. Dismas went straight to heaven after he died, according to Christ’s word. HOWEVER, note that St. Dismas didn’t die immediately upon Christ’s word. But continued to suffer even after Christ died. Why? I’ll list the reasons below:
2. Christ does not contradict His own Word. Scripture says:
1 Peter 4:1
Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
Therefore, St. Dismas had to expiate his sin before he went to heaven. Jesus knew this, therefore He did not permit St. Dismas to die before he suffered sufficiently upon his cross (John 19:31-33).
3. Scripture also says:
Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Note that St. Dismas died in union with Christ. Compare him to the other thief who died in disunion with Christ.
4. Scripture continues:
Matthew 10:32
Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Note that St. Dismas also confessed Jesus before men (Luke 23:39-41).
5. Note also, that St. Dismas did a work of gold (1 Cor 3:10-15). His confession is memorialized in Scripture for eternity and has converted many men to the Faith of our Lord, Jesus Christ (James 5:19-20).
And St. Dismas went straight to heaven, in accordance with all the Teachings of the Catholic Church.
what about new converts who get killed (e.g. combat) prior to being able to do any works?
DeleteBefore they came to Jesus Christ, they had to repent of all their sins. Including any murder they may have committed.
Look at John 6:29 to see what the “work of God” truly is.
I guess you’re not reading. I posted that link to you. The WORK of God is to believe in the one He sent. Faith is believing. Therefore, faith is a work. This is an idea which you denied until I educated you.
You dismiss my evidence about works by saying I don’t understand the passages. I fully understand because I am able to read and comprehend and don’t need the RCC to tell me what it says.
You do need the Catholic Church to explain it to you. You simply have too much pride to admit it.
Catholics do indeed worship Mary, and ascribe to her the characters of God, as I PROVE here:
https://watchmansbagpipes.blogspot.com/2010/06/mary-mother-of-church-is-not-mary-of.html
You prove nothing there except that you don’t understand Scripture. Scripture which tells you to praise Mary.
https://washedsanctifiedandjustified.blogspot.com/2011/08/in-praise-of-mary.html
The Mass is idolatry, as I PROVE here:
https://watchmansbagpipes.blogspot.com/2010/06/catholic-eucharist-unbiblical-and.html
All you prove there is your lack of faith. Jesus Christ is the Bread of Heaven and He established the Eucharist. And Scripture tells you that those who reject the Eucharist are God’s enemies. See Heb 10:25-31.
Whether or not the O.T. was bound in one book is irrelevant. It was completed B.C. The N.T. was written by Christians (‘catholic” in the sense of “universal” church), not by the RCC which didn’t exist. You really need to study your church history. The RCC was NOT established by Christ, but by the devil.
The Catholic Church was established by Jesus Christ.
https://washedsanctifiedandjustified.blogspot.com/2016/05/jesus-christ-established-catholic-church.html
The NT was written by the Catholic Church and the Catholic Church approved the inspired books of the Old Testament and put them in the Bible with the New Testament.
You keep railing at “Protestants,” but they only account for a small percentage of non-Catholic Christians. You don’t seem to understand what a Protestant is, nor do you seem to know history where thousands of non-RCC Christians have existed from the 1st Century until the present day.
Anyone who denies and rejects the Teachings of the Catholic Church as a result of the Protestant revolution, is a Protestant.
Remember you satanic popes persecuted and murdered those who refused to bow to Rome — find in Scripture where God tells his church to murder those who disagree with it.
That’s a lie. The Catholic Church has never murdered anyone. It is Calvin and Luther who did any murdering. The Catholic Church was established by Jesus Christ and given authority to rule over all Christians. Anyone who sins is sinning despite the clear Teaching of Jesus Christ which is only Taught infallibly by the Catholic Church.
You are so brainwashed that you can’t think for yourself. You are unteachable.
I accept the Teachings of Christ which are only passed down by the Catholic Church. It is you who have been brainwashed by the novelties of the Protestants.
Have fun in your lost and apostate life because you will not see salvation.
You and all Protestants judge your own souls. But God is my Judge. With the Apostle, I say:
1 Corinthians 4:
2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
I wasn't going to continue with your ignorance, but I felt a last response was needed.
DeleteMy final authority is not my interpretation of the Bible, but what it actually says. Rome is the one who re-interprets it to fit their dogma.
I submit to the leaders of my assembly, as the Scripture teaches. But I don't submit blindly as you do to the Pope. When false teachings have been brought in to assemblies where I previously worshiped, I called out the leaders for their teachings and left.
There is nothing in 18:18 to indicate he is talking only to Peter. Nice try though.
So Rome has made up a name for thief on the cross. Too funny. But he did no works, contrary to your claim that works are required for salvation. And your nonsense about him needing to suffer is just that - unbiblical nonsense on the line with unbiblical purgatory. The thief when to heaven because of his confession -- period.
Faith is NOT a work. Faith is contrasted with works. Jesus was making a point that there are no "works" for salvation.
It is YOU who need to have Rome explain things, just like the JWs need their cult leaders to explain things. Same with every cult- Rome needs their explanations because they twist the Scripture to find their lying dogmas. I doubt if you read either of the links I provided because you can't refute the articles.
The RCC wasn't even around until ca late 4th century so Christ couldn't have founded it.
People denied Papism BEFORE the Protestant revolution, so quit say anyone who disagrees with Papism is a Protestant. You just keep demonstrating your ignorance of history.
And Rome has killed hundreds of THOUSANDS of people and if you'd read history you'd know that. Jews were mercilessly persecuted, anyone denying Rome was executed, burned at the stake, etc, including for printing Bibles in the vernacular. Yes Calvinists murdered also, but they don't claim infallibility. Luther was also anti-Jew learned from Rome.
God is your judge alright, and sees your idolatry to Rome. If you do not repent and leave Papism, you will die in your sins.
Glenn said:
DeleteI wasn't going to continue with your ignorance,
You are the one who has proven your ignorance of Scripture.
but I felt a last response was needed.
Feel free to respond as often as you like. I’ll simply refute the last response as easily as the first.
My final authority is not my interpretation of the Bible, but what it actually says.
YOU are your final authority. You could care less what the Bible actually says.
Rome is the one who re-interprets it to fit their dogma.
The Catholic Church wrote the New Testament based upon the Teachings of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ did not write even one word of Scripture. He commanded the Church to Teach and the Church wrote the New Testament based upon His Teaching.
Glenn continues:
DeleteI submit to the leaders of my assembly, as the Scripture teaches. But I don't submit blindly as you do to the Pope.
In other words, you don’t submit at all. You don’t believe that they give an account of your sins to God, as Scripture clearly explains. Heb 13:17.
When false teachings have been brought in to assemblies where I previously worshiped, I called out the leaders for their teachings and left.
There is the proof. You pridefully believe that you are the arbiter of God’s truth. But God didn’t appoint you to anything but obedience.
There is nothing in 18:18 to indicate he is talking only to Peter. Nice try though.
You have twisted my words as easily as you twist Scripture. 18:18 follows 16:18. Jesus Christ has already appointed Peter as the Head of the Church and given him the keys. He then explains to the Apostles, in 18:18, that they can open and close, because they, who are united to Peter, can request the keys which he has in his possession.
So Rome has made up a name for thief on the cross. Too funny. But he did no works, contrary to your claim that works are required for salvation. And your nonsense about him needing to suffer is just that - unbiblical nonsense on the line with unbiblical purgatory. The thief when to heaven because of his confession -- period.
1. Confession is a work.
2. You can deny the truth all you want, but the truth is still true.Faith is NOT a work.
Scripture says that it is.
Faith is contrasted with works.
Works of faith are contrasted with works which are not of faith.
1 Corinthians 6:9
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Glenn concludes:
DeleteJesus was making a point that there are no "works" for salvation.
Jesus was making the point that you must do the works of the Father before you are saved.
Matthew 7:21 King James Version (KJV)
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
It is YOU who need to have Rome explain things, just like the JWs need their cult leaders to explain things. Same with every cult- Rome needs their explanations because they twist the Scripture to find their lying dogmas. I doubt if you read either of the links I provided because you can't refute the articles.
The JWs are protestants just like you. You and they have rejected the Church established by Jesus Christ to Teach His Word.
The RCC wasn't even around until ca late 4th century so Christ couldn't have founded it.
The Catholic Church was established by Jesus Christ.
People denied Papism BEFORE the Protestant revolution, so quit say anyone who disagrees with Papism is a Protestant. You just keep demonstrating your ignorance of history.
We are talking about you and those like you which are the result of the heretical teachings of Luther and Calvin. You are all Protestants.
And Rome has killed hundreds of THOUSANDS of people and if you'd read history you'd know that. Jews were mercilessly persecuted, anyone denying Rome was executed, burned at the stake, etc, including for printing Bibles in the vernacular. Yes Calvinists murdered also, but they don't claim infallibility. Luther was also anti-Jew learned from Rome.
Rome is a city in Italy. The Catholic Church is the Kingdom of Heaven which Jesus established upon this earth and which, if you remain outside of it, you will not be saved.
God is your judge alright, and sees your idolatry to Rome. If you do not repent and leave Papism, you will die in your sins.
On the contrary, if you don’t repent and come to the Catholic Church, you will die in yours.
De Maria, I’m just hitting a few points. Jesse doesn’t technically think you can’t merit your salvation. He believes that having faith merits it. This is the only “work” that does. So since there is something we can do about our salvation, his interpretation doesn’t necessarily lead to Calvinism. You also can merit your salvation. I’m Catholic and that’s actually heresy, pelagianism.
ReplyDeleteIt is NOT Pelagianism to say salvation is based on faith. One must have faith in Christ's work on the cross to be saved. THAT is the Biblical position. It is not saving oneself of having anything to do with the salvation except accepting it.,
DeleteHello Dolan,
DeleteWhat's pelagianism? Pelagianism is denial of original sin and the denial of the necessity of God's grace. It is the idea that we can earn salvation by our own works without God's help.
The idea of "meriting salvation" requires the existence of a Judge who can read the heart and determine the intent of the labourer. IN other words, it requires the existence and participation of God. It is He who judges whether the works which he is doing are done in faith or are self serving. When we "merit salvation", we don't judge ourselves, as Protestants do. It is God who determines whether our works are worthy of salvation.
As Jesus said:
Luke 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
Who do you think is accounting this worthiness to obtain that world and the resurrection from the dead?
Furthermore, we don't do the works ourselves. It is God working through us.
Philippians 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. 12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
So, what is it that you are calling "pelagianism"?
Glenn E. ChatfieldAugust 9, 2018 at 1:03 PM
DeleteIt is NOT Pelagianism to say salvation is based on faith. One must have faith in Christ's work on the cross to be saved. THAT is the Biblical position. It is not saving oneself of having anything to do with the salvation except accepting it.,
The Biblical position is that one must have faith AND works.
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
For SALVATION, one needs only faith. Works are a result of the Salvation, the outworking of it. Proven by those who are never able to do works after salvation. FOOL.
DeleteGlenn E. ChatfieldAugust 9, 2018 at 2:17 PM
DeleteFor SALVATION, one needs only faith.
That's what YOU say. But Scripture contradicts you.
Scripture says the most important element for salvation, is charity.
1 Corinthians 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
Scripture says that without forgiveness, we won't be saved.
Matt 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Scripture says that unless you keep the Commandments, you won't enter life:
Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Works are a result of the Salvation, the outworking of it.
Lol! You're contradicting yourself. Scripture says that we work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Work out. Let's use that terminology in a common usage.
When we "work out", we exercise to produce results. If you work out, you do physical exercises in order to make your body fit and strong.
For example, a person wants to get strong. He works out with weights and after many weeks, months, sometimes even years, he begins to see the result of his labors. Not before he works out, but after.
Or, what about a math problem. You work out the details of the problem until you come out with a solution.
That is the sense of the working out of salvation. You produce good works, then God saves you.
Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Proven by those who are never able to do works after salvation. FOOL.
Like you. You reject the necessity of good works. Therefore, you are never able to do them.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDelete"No, it isn't. Calvinists agree with you and their conclusion is a logical deduction of their false teachings."
ReplyDeleteSoteriology is complicated subject-matter. There are many different aspects to it and many different schools of thought in existence.
"They believe in double predestination. Therefore, there is neither merit, nor value nor necessity of works."
Your own logic is illogical because you operate on a false dichotomy. Belief in Calvinism is not a requirement in order to believe in justification by faith alone.
Calvinists agree with you that God is a Trinity. Does that make your theology more Reformed?
"Your conclusion that salvation is not merit based is illogical since you believe that one must have faith in order to be saved. Faith is a meritorious work in God's eyes."
That actually isn't true. If faith itself were meritorious, then Paul's entire discussion of faith versus works would literally make no sense. For example, Ephesians 2:8-9 says that salvation is a gift of God received by faith rather than works. Paul always distinguishes between the two.
The only thing that we can merit for ourselves is eternal condemnation because of our sins against God.
"Which previous discussions? Provide a link so I can see what you said."
Hasn't anyone ever told you before that you talk too much?
"They were justified BY GOD because they did good deeds."
If a person were able to keep the Law perfectly, then he could be justified by it, theoretically speaking. But that is not true in actuality. The Law was never intended to save anyone.
The text of Romans 2 offers a description of people who do good works as a result of their hearts having been changed by the Spirit of God.
"Exactly! God looks at our works in judgment in order to determine if they are meritorious."
No, God looks at our works in judgement because they are evidence of changed character. It has nothing to do with merit on our part.
"Look at what He says to Abraham (Genesis 22:16-17)."
The text merely says that Abraham did something pleasing to God. Abraham demonstrated the reality of his faith by offering Issac.
"Only if you take the verse out of context. Do you really think that Scripture contradicts itself? Do you really believe that St. Paul, who was inspired by the Holy Spirit, would say one thing in one verse and contradict himself a few paragraphs later?"
You are the one who ignores the entirety of Paul's argument of justification by faith to the exclusion of works of the Law. You are the one who cherry picks verses to the exclusion of context or any broader theological framework.
Galatians 6:8 merely contrasts the different lifestyles of believers and nonbelievers. It describes the separate eternal fates that both will experience. That point applies equally to 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and 2 Corinthians 5:10. Try Galatians 2:16; 21; and 3:1-3.
"On the contrary, Scripture is clear that God requires us to do good works."
The dispute is not about whether good works should be done but the relationship faith and works have with each other.