Saved by grace in the Sacraments - 7

 

De Maria

3 hours ago (edited)

 BL-Purgatory and indulgences are both taught as truth but the only way to provide biblical verses to prove them is by taking verses out of context. DM-Ok, well thanks for taking up the challenge. DM-Let's see. Thanks for combining Purgatory and indulgences since they are basically the same Teaching. Both are based on the fact that there is a Heavenly Treasury where our good works are stored and God uses them to cleanse our souls of sin. BL-Well that sounds good but can you back that " based on the fact that " up with scripture? DM-Yes. Jesus said: Matt 6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven How do we do that? In that chapter, Jesus named many things we must do. verse 1-4 give alms verse 5-12 pray verse 13-15 forgive verse 16-19 fast These lead to the conclusion that if we do all these things, we lay up treasure in heaven. Do you have an alternate understanding of this chapter? BL-God uses our good works to cleanse our souls of sin ? So all we need to do is accept Tobit 12:9 as truth and we no longer need Jesus dieing on the cross for all of our sins and washing us in His blood to cleabnse us of all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9 DM-Sounds as though you want to be rid of the entire Bible and rely only on Tobit 12:9. Whereas, we accept the entire Bible. But lets focus on Jesus death on the Cross for a moment. You seem to believe that He died on the Cross in order that you would not have to do anything else, but skip your way into heaven. Whereas, Scripture clearly says: Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. And again: 1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: That clearly states that Jesus died in order to illicit a response from us. Not in order that you will no longer do anything else. 2 Corinthians 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. DM- There are many Scriptures to support both Teachings, but here is one, show me where it is out of context: Luke 12:33Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth. BL-You are focusing on heaven not worldly wealth that is fleeting at best. DM-You're right. I am focusing on heaven. And not on worldly wealth. Jesus said that by giving away our worldly wealth (ie almsgiving), we accumulate treasure in heaven. It sounds as though Jesus is saying we can buy our way into heaven. Now, please try again. I don't see how I'm taking it out of context. I am focusing on heaven. That's what we are supposed to do. I don't think you mean to tell me that focusing on heaven is an error. Scripture says: Matthew 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. DM-Notice that Jesus is Teaching us to buy our way into heaven. BL-Where do you get the idea besides Tobit that you can buy your way into heaven? DM-There where Jesus says to give alms, which is the giving of money to the poor or to the Church. He describes this action as producing an accumulation of treasure in heaven. BL-With our alms we buy bags of heavenly treasure. With what we do we do for God not for something. DM-Really? God needs our coin? For what? DM-Question, what is the heavenly treasure for? Answer, to release us from Purgatory. BL-You can not be released from a place that does not exist. DM-Then what is this place? 1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; BL-If purgatory did exist you would find Jesus and the apostles teaching about the afterlife and a final cleanup. You do not because there is no need for any final cleanup and everything that is unclean will not be in heaven and Jesus has made you clean. DM-They do teach and it can be found in many places. See here: Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. DM-What is another name for the heavenly treasure? Indulgences. BL-Amazing how you can believe what you write! DM-And I can back it up. BL-A verse out of context. What is therefore there for? It tells you that the belief in the resurrection discussed in the preceding chapter is what Paul is referencing here , not that all traditions must be accepted. DM-So all you need to believe is the resurrection? Is that what you mean? BL-No that is not what I said , What is therefore There for? The context of that verse is found in the first 14 verses and refers to those 14 verses. It does not give a blanket statement about all traditions at all. DM-First of all, St. Paul makes it clear that he is not restricting his point to that whch is written since he said: 2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. Whether by WORD or epistle. Whether spoken or written. Next, we can see that he did not mean to hold to the written word only since he also said: 1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe. The word of God which ye HEARD of us. Thus, it is the Word of God preached and spoken. Not a written word. So, no, the context is not the prior 14 verses. BL-It does not give a blanket statement about all traditions at all. DM-I can find no restriction. Please provide it chapter and verse.