Pages

Wednesday, September 17, 2014

I understand if you don't see the connection, because they are spiritually discerned.


Lutero:

Do you deliberately make your posts exceedingly long so that people won’t respond. I prefer a meaningful discussion myself.
If it were true that you prefer a meaningful discussion, you would respond to questions rather than ignoring them.


Therefore, because we are discussing whether or not grace is merited or given as a gift, I’ll start there.
Ok.

Also, You use too many unrelated Scripture verses in your posts. That can actually prove your lack of understanding of Scripture rather than a knowledge of it.
I use Scripture perfectly in line with what I'm saying. However, I understand if you don't see the connection:
1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 

Perhaps, I don’t understand the question, De Maria.
You should have said so. Otherwise it appears you want to ignore the question.

Salvation is the result of God’s grace.
Correct.

If my understanding is correct, Rome views “grace” as if it were some sort of a substance that can be dished out in quantities like grain.
More like water:
John 4:10
Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

My view of God’s grace in this context is simply this, His forgiveness. Therefore, I disagree that Salvation is a type of “grace.”
You don't believe that salvation is a gift of God?

Romans 6:23

King James Version (KJV)

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord


I would agree that Salvation comes through God’s grace.
So, you're splitting hairs. Salvation is not a gift but it comes by a gift?

I fail to see the connection between faith and meriting grace. Perhaps you could elaborate.
Sure. Consider this. 

A man has no faith in Christ. Will that man receive the grace of eternal life? My answer is no. He has not pleased God therefore he has not merited any grace from God. It is written:
Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.


Yet the Bible makes no such distinction.
There's a lot of things that are not written in the Bible. Do you believe that the Holy Trinity is One God in three Divine Persons? Show me from Scripture.

Do you believe that Mark wrote the Gospel of Mark? Show me from Scripture.

It does not say that there is an initial “grace” given at baptism.
I said nothing about Baptism. But since you brought it up, grace is poured into our hearts in Baptism if we have previously cooperated with the unmerited grace of God's calling us to conversion.

Salvation cannot be a gift if the sinner has to do anything to get it.
That's a lie which Protestants propogate. There are many gifts given which are tied to performance. Do you give graduation gifts before someone graduates? Or after? That's just one example. Go to any hospital or charitable agency and you will find an entire office where the various donor wishes are recorded and assurances are provided that their wishes for the gift are being met.

If grace is merited then it cannot be grace.
Yes, it can. 


"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."(Romans 11:6)
This is a reference to the fact that the Jews thought God owed them salvation because they judged themselves saved by their works:

Luke 18:9

King James Version (KJV)

And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

Back in the time of Moses, the Jews had made an agreement with God:
Exodus 19:4-8

King James Version (KJV)

Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the Lord commanded him.
And all the people answered together, and said, All that the Lord hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the Lord.

But when He died on the Cross, Jesus fulfilled that Covenant:
Hebrews 9:15-17

King James Version (KJV)

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

and established the New Testament in His Blood:
Matthew 26:28

King James Version (KJV)

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.



You are suggesting that Paul is talking out of both sides of his mouth.


On the contrary, that is you. In Romans 2, he clearly delineates that we must keep the Commandments in order to be saved:

Romans 2:13

King James Version (KJV)

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
But Protestants read Romans 3 and pretend that St. Paul cast aside the foundation which he set forth in Romans 2.

In Romans 2:7, Paul in no way says that God will render eternal life because of his deeds but rather he says that God will render judgment according to how a person has lived which is by faith.
Lets read Romans 2:7
Romans 2:7

King James Version (KJV)

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

There's no mention of faith there. However, we understand that it is implied. We do good, we do the works of God, because of our faith in God. And St. Paul is saying that, to all those who continue in doing good all their lives, God will give eternal life.


”For the wages of sin is death; but [u]the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. [/i]
Amen!


And what of Romans 2:13?
” (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. ”   
How do you reconcile that with Romans 3:20?

“Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”

Very easily. 

We do not justify ourselves by our works or by any other means. God justifies us. But unless we obey His Word and do the good works which He commands, we won't be justified.

Note how he ends the chapter:
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

We are not justified by the law, but unless we keep the law, God will not justify us. We can see this better in Romans 8:

Romans 8

King James Version (KJV)

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.


Note that those who walk in the spirit are subject to the law. But those who mind the flesh are at enmity with God and with His law.

And Galatians 2:16:

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.“

Again Paul is not saying that man is justified by his deeds but by faith which is also a free gift from God.
True. We are not justified by our deeds. But only those who do the deeds which God commands are justified by God. St. Paul continues in Galatians:

Galatians 5:18-25

King James Version (KJV)

18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.



Note closely how all which St. Paul condemns is that which is against the Law of God. And he says that those who do those things will not go to heaven. In other words, in order to go to heaven, one must do the works which God commands and reject the works which God forbids. 

Evidence of faith is witnessed by his actions but it is not his actions that justify the sinner.
That is exactly what the Church teaches. Our actions are the evidence of our faith.

God does not give eternal life or justification to those who perform good works,
How do you reconcile those words with Romans 2:7:

Romans 2:7

King James Version (KJV)

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Here's a more modern version:


Romans 2:7

New King James Version (NKJV)

eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;



but to those who believe in Him and who’s conduct reveals their regenerate hearts.
By their conduct means by their works. 

Really? Where does Paul make a distinction between Jews and Christians in Romans Chapter 4?
St. Paul assumes he is talking to people who know that the Jews made an agreement with God and therefore consider themselves laborers for a wage. That is why Jesus Christ also used that metaphor:

Matthew 20:1 King James Version (KJV)

1 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.

Sincerely,

De Maria

No comments:

Post a Comment

Thanks for contributing.