Hi, Christians Truth and anyone following our discussion. In this article, I said:
What would you like to discuss next?
You replied: I will let you decide that, if you want.
Great! As you know, I like to take things slow. As I was reading our discussion, it occurs to me that we are touching upon many doctrines. In this series today, we touched upon:
1. The difference between how we read Scripture.
2. The importance of Tradition.
3. The importance of our leaders in the Church.
4. The error of Sola Scriptura….
5. The importance of assembling together.
We've touched upon many doctrines already. So, if you don't mind, I'd like to take up this question because it really includes the other four elements. Let me explain:
The Mass is a Tradition wherein we assemble together to praise God with one mind and mouth. It is in the Mass that we receive the Sacraments and we are taught the Word of God by our Leaders, the Priests. Sola Scriptura teaches that we don't need any of that. So, I think it would be a good topic to continue.
There are several places where the Mass is indicated in Scripture, but those who have discarded the Traditions don't recognize it because they no longer have a context to understand it.
Here are the Scriptures which refer to the Mass:
Acts 2:42[ The Fellowship of the Believers ] They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.
Romans 15:6
so that with one mind and one voice you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.
Hebrews 10:24-30
King James Version (KJV)
24And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
And so, it should be clear from that last one, why it is a MORTAL sin to miss the Mass for trivial reasons. Anyway, let us proceed. What do you think?
Sincerely,
De Maria
You said: Great! As you know, I like to take things slow. As I was reading our discussion, it occurs to me that we are touching upon many doctrines. In this series today, we touched upon:
ReplyDelete1. The difference between how we read Scripture.
2. The importance of Tradition.
3. The importance of our leaders in the Church.
4. The error of Sola Scriptura….
5. The importance of assembling together.
My reply: 1. There is no technique in reading the Bible. The Bible is understandable, and it is plain and simple.
2. The Tradition of the Catholics add doctrine that are not in the Bible. However, the tradition Paul taught is the same what he taught by letter.
3. What good are leaders in a church if falseness is taught.
4. There is no error in scripture alone. In fact, Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to the word, they have no light of dawn.
Jesus says that tradition keeps man from God’s truth:
Matthew 15:6-9 Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
“‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.’”
5. There is no importance in assembling together if falseness is taught.
You said: The Mass is a Tradition wherein we assemble together to praise God with one mind and mouth. It is in the Mass that we receive the Sacraments and we are taught the Word of God by our Leaders, the Priests. Sola Scriptura teaches that we don't need any of that. So, I think it would be a good topic to continue.
ReplyDeleteMy reply: I do not know where you get “Sola Scriptura teaches that we don’t need any of that.” Just so you know, I do not use reformed language, such a sola scriptura, and though I am very familiar what they teach, I am defending the truth, and not Calvinists. Calvinists do not even keep to scripture only.
You said: There are several places where the Mass is indicated in Scripture, but those who have discarded the Traditions don't recognize it because they no longer have a context to understand it.
My reply: First, there is no such thing as “Traditions” of believers that make it okay to follow doctrine outside the written word. In fact, Jesus strongly rebukes such things.
In the scriptures, the Apostles spoke of gathering; however, “Mass” is nowhere in the word of God. I also want to ask you, please do not say when someone does not believe in what you do, that it means they do not understand your religion.
You said: Here are the Scriptures which refer to the Mass:
Acts 2:42
[ The Fellowship of the Believers ] They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.
My reply: In the New Testament times, the Bible was not yet completed. True believers gathered to hear letters read from Apostle Paul and others. In addition, true believers gathered to hear the visiting Apostles preach and teach. In addition, true believers had gifts given by the Holy Spirit, and they prophesied, they prophesied about God’s word.
You said: Hebrews 10:24-30
King James Version (KJV)
24And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
And so, it should be clear from that last one, why it is a MORTAL sin to miss the Mass for trivial reasons. Anyway, let us proceed. What do you think?
My reply: There is no such mortal sin not to gather. That is a ridiculous teaching from the Catholics. What do you mean by saying, “it should be clear from that last one”? Paul is speaking about continuing to sin with no intention of stopping.
ReplyDeleteChristians Truth said...
My reply: 1. There is no technique in reading the Bible. The Bible is understandable, and it is plain and simple.
The Bible says that it must be taught:
Acts 8: 29Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. 30And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?31And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
2. The Tradition of the Catholics add doctrine that are not in the Bible. However, the tradition Paul taught is the same what he taught by letter.
Do you keep this Tradition taught by St. Paul in Scripture:
1 Corinthians 11:25After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. 26For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.27Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
3. What good are leaders in a church if falseness is taught.
A. We believe Christ who said that the Gates of Hell would not defeat His Church (Matt 16:19).
B. It is the Church which Christ appoints as the Judge of falseness (Matt 18:17; 1 Tim 3:15).
4. There is no error in scripture alone.
Scripture does not interpret Itself. People interpret Scripture. Therefore, we must follow those who have a proper understanding of the Word of God. Those are they whom God appointed leaders in the Church.
In fact, Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to the word, they have no light of dawn.
That is Catholic Teaching. You are taking much for granted in understanding that verse.
First, Someone must judge whether they who speak are speaking according to the Word. It is the Church which Christ appointed that task.
Second, two things are being judged:
a. the speaking of they who are being questioned.
b. the understanding of they who are contesting this teaching.
Third, there is someone in authority to judge. In the case of the Jews, it was the Sanhedrin. Those who continued in Moses' seat:
Exodus 18:113And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses sat to judge the people: and the people stood by Moses from the morning unto the evening.14And when Moses' father in law saw all that he did to the people, he said, What is this thing that thou doest to the people? why sittest thou thyself alone, and all the people stand by thee from morning unto even?15And Moses said unto his father in law, Because the people come unto me to enquire of God:
Jesus says that tradition keeps man from God’s truth:
Jesus says that "traditions of men" keep men from the truth:
Mark 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, ….
5. There is no importance in assembling together if falseness is taught.
True. Therefore you need to gather where truth is taught. In the Catholic Church.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Christians Truth said...
ReplyDeleteMy reply: I do not know where you get “Sola Scriptura teaches that we don’t need any of that.” Just so you know, I do not use reformed language, such a sola scriptura, and though I am very familiar what they teach, I am defending the truth, and not Calvinists. Calvinists do not even keep to scripture only.
I'll do my best to keep to your terminology. So, you keep to Scripture "only", is that correct? Or should I describe it some other way? My reply: First, there is no such thing as “Traditions” of believers that make it okay to follow doctrine outside the written word. In fact, Jesus strongly rebukes such things.
1. The Mass is described in Scripture.
2. Jesus rebukes those who follow the traditions of men.
3. Your understanding of Scripture is a tradition of one man, you, because you are trying to pass it on to others, for example, me.
In the scriptures, the Apostles spoke of gathering; however, “Mass” is nowhere in the word of God.
Strictly speaking, neither is Bible nor any word you have written here. Scripture was written in a different language. So, in following Scripture, you are following your understanding of something someone interpreted.
My point is that the word Mass does not have to be written explicitly in Scripture for me to see the Mass therein described.
I also want to ask you, please do not say when someone does not believe in what you do, that it means they do not understand your religion.
In the other thread, you accused us of worshipping statues which we incense. If you understand Catholicism, you know that we worship only God. Since you don't know that fact, you don't understand Catholicism. Simple.
My reply: In the New Testament times, the Bible was not yet completed.
Agreed. The Catholic Church completed it later.
True believers gathered to hear letters read from Apostle Paul and others. In addition, true believers gathered to hear the visiting Apostles preach and teach. In addition, true believers had gifts given by the Holy Spirit, and they prophesied, they prophesied about God’s word.
All that is true. Those gatherings we call the Mass.
My reply: There is no such mortal sin not to gather.
It is in fact a mortal sin to think so little of the Sacrifice of our Lord on the Cross that one does not even want to spend a little time, once a week, proclaiming his Thanksgiving to God the Father for this gift of His Grace.
That is a ridiculous teaching from the Catholics.
It is ridiculous to reject it.
What do you mean by saying, “it should be clear from that last one”? Paul is speaking about continuing to sin with no intention of stopping.
Exactly! Many men will disregard the Mass because they will continue to sin in every other way and continue also to disregard the Mass. Those who reject the Mass have rejected Christ who is there presented on the Altar.
Sincerely,
De Maria
You said: The Bible says that it must be taught:
ReplyDeleteActs 8: 29Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot. 30And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?31And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
My reply: Philip explained to the eunuch. He had never heard of the scriptures before. It took the eunuch how long to learn? If you think this supports going to the Catholic Mass once a week or suffer a mortal sin, then you are ludicrous.
You said: Do you keep this Tradition taught by St. Paul in Scripture:
1 Corinthians 11:25After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. 26For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.27Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
My reply: It is not a “Tradition” in the way Catholics teach, CATHOLICS TEACH TRADITION TO BE THINGS NOT WRITTEN DOWN, BUT RATHER, ORALLY TAUGHT. As for you asking me if I break bread with other believers, of course. Why have you not answered to me how you keep Jesus’ command in call no one ‘father?’
You said: A. We believe Christ who said that the Gates of Hell would not defeat His Church (Matt 16:19).
My reply: The Church is true believers. The Catholic religion does not teach the truth, so how do you think this means your religion?
You said: B. It is the Church which Christ appoints as the Judge of falseness (Matt 18:17; 1 Tim 3:15).
My reply: Again, the Catholic Church is not whom this is about, for this is about true worshipers of the Bible times. Tell me De Maria, have you ever even done this what Jesus says? Do you know anyone who has a brother who has sinned against them, who ultimately took him to the Catholic Church to have the brother corrected and made to feel shameful to win him over? You use the scriptures to try to support your false Church; however, you do not even do what you say you believe the scriptures say.
You said: Scripture does not interpret Itself. People interpret Scripture. Therefore, we must follow those who have a proper understanding of the Word of God. Those are they whom God appointed leaders in the Church.
My reply: In the Bible times, they had the Apostles writing and teaching the words of God for the first time, these words are now what we see in the Bible. It is good for man to study together, but it is not a mortal sin not to go to the Catholic Church once a week. It is not a sin not to get together. Your religion condemns people for not going to a place that will be condemned, how ironic. The Bible says there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, yet to have the priest tell everyone they are committing a mortal sin and will be condemned if not repented of is evil. There is no such command from Jesus that says it is a mortal sin not to gather. That is a lie.
You said: True. Therefore you need to gather where truth is taught. In the Catholic Church.
My reply: Catholics teach against the Truth! I show you from the Bible, yet you still do not believe.
You said: 1. The Mass is described in Scripture.
ReplyDeleteMy reply: There is no such teachings from Jesus that the Catholics do, only teachings against what the Catholics do.
You said: Strictly speaking, neither is Bible nor any word you have written here.
My reply: Bible means ‘book.’
You said: Scripture was written in a different language. So, in following Scripture, you are following your understanding of something someone interpreted.
My reply: Not in ANY language do the scriptures say what Catholics teach and practice.
You said: My point is that the word Mass does not have to be written explicitly in Scripture for me to see the Mass therein described.
My reply: There is nowhere the description in the Bible what the Catholics teach, only what we are not supposed to do!
You said: In the other thread, you accused us of worshipping statues which we incense. If you understand Catholicism, you know that we worship only God. Since you don't know that fact, you don't understand Catholicism. Simple.
My reply: Did not Moses himself make the bronze snake? Did not people live when they looked at the bronze snake? Was not the bronze snake destroyed because the Israelites burned incense to it? I understand the Catholic religion; the Catholic religion goes against the word of God, and they do this claiming they only look as if they are sinning, that they really have a good reason for doing what they are doing. Do NOT incense material objects! That in itself is a form of worship. Do you not think the Israelites KNEW about God? Do you not think the Israelites KNEW Moses made the bronze snake? Think!
You said: Agreed. The Catholic Church completed it later.
My reply: That would be funny, except it is too serious a falseness to laugh.
You said: All that is true. Those gatherings we call the Mass.
My reply: Oh no, the Catholic Mass is not a gathering to hear the truth; the Catholic Mass is a place where blasphemies of all kinds are committed. You have up front a priest whom parishioners call ‘father.’ You have statues all over that the parishioners bow. You have the priest incensing the “Holy Images” and bowing to them at the altar. You have the priest claiming he can turn the wafer into the real body of Christ, and the wine into the real blood of Jesus. You have prayers to Mary and other Catholic “Saints.” No, the Catholic Mass is nothing like the gatherings of the true believers in the Bible
You said: It is in fact a mortal sin to think so little of the Sacrifice of our Lord on the Cross that one does not even want to spend a little time, once a week, proclaiming his Thanksgiving to God the Father for this gift of His Grace. Many men will disregard the Mass because they will continue to sin in every other way and continue also to disregard the Mass. Those who reject the Mass have rejected Christ who is there presented on the Altar.
My reply: I would not step foot again in such an evil place as the Catholic Church.
De Maria,
ReplyDeleteI would love to continue debating you on your blog; however, one blog of mine that I want you to read and then post your defense. The name of the post I want to discuss with you is Catholic Influence Part 2 Pictures. Here is the link:
http://christianstruth.blogspot.com/2011/11/catholic-influence-demolished-part-2.html
Christians Truth said...
ReplyDeleteMy reply: Philip explained to the eunuch. He had never heard of the scriptures before. It took the eunuch how long to learn? If you think this supports going to the Catholic Mass once a week or suffer a mortal sin, then you are ludicrous.
It didn't take the Eunuch long to learn ONCE he was taught by the Church. But what does Scripture say about someone reading Scripture without a teacher:
Acts 8:29Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.30And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?31And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
My reply: It is not a “Tradition” in the way Catholics teach, CATHOLICS TEACH TRADITION TO BE THINGS NOT WRITTEN DOWN, BUT RATHER, ORALLY TAUGHT.
Lol! Why do you make things up about the Catholic Church? If you actually understood the Catholic Church, you would be able to produce the actual teachings and argue against them. But instead, you hate the Church so much, you simply make things up and argue against the things you make up. The Catholic Church teaches that the ENTIRE NEW TESTAMENT is from Tradition. Here is the teaching from the Catechism:
83 The Tradition here in question comes from the apostles and hands on what they received from Jesus' teaching and example and what they learned from the Holy Spirit. The first generation of Christians did not yet have a written New Testament, and the New Testament itself demonstrates the process of living Tradition.
As for you asking me if I break bread with other believers, of course. Why have you not answered to me how you keep Jesus’ command in call no one ‘father?’
I did, several times. And you may break bread, but you do not discern the Body of our Lord in the Bread or the Cup. My reply: The Church is true believers.
The Church is also the hierarchy which Jesus sent into the Church to build it up:
1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
The Catholic religion does not teach the truth, so how do you think this means your religion?
The Catholic Church teaches the fullness of the Truth. Some of you believe some things that are true. I hope that you believe that Jesus is God. But many of you, don't. Take for instance, the Jehovahs. Some of you believe in the Real Presence of Jesus Christ when you break bread, such as the Lutherans. But some of you, such as Evangelicals, don't. You're a mixed bag. You care little about the doctrine which saves:
1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
Everyone of you makes up your own doctrines and teaches that.
My reply: Again, the Catholic Church is not whom this is about, for this is about true worshipers of the Bible times. Tell me De Maria, have you ever even done this what Jesus says? Do you know anyone who has a brother who has sinned against them, who ultimately took him to the Catholic Church to have the brother corrected and made to feel shameful to win him over? You use the scriptures to try to support your false Church; however, you do not even do what you say you believe the scriptures say.
I'm trying to do this now, with you. I am also aware that it was done several times in history. A famous case is the debate between two Bishops, Athanasius and Arius. Athanasius and Arius went to the Church to settle their dispute. They both claimed the Holy Spirit, as you and I both do. And they both used Scripture to defend their conclusions, as you and I also do. Arius was condemned as a heretic.
cont'd
cont'd
ReplyDeleteChristians Truth said:
My reply: In the Bible times, they had the Apostles writing and teaching the words of God for the first time, these words are now what we see in the Bible. It is good for man to study together, but it is not a mortal sin not to go to the Catholic Church once a week.
That is really funny. You didn't even read the Scripture. Let me help you:
Hebrews 10
1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect…..
First he tells us that the Old Testament is only a shadow of the New. Believe it or not, some of you non-Catholics who don't listen to the Church, actually say that the Old Testament is more important. I thought I would start here in order to make sure you understand, the OLD TESTAMENT is only a shadow of the NEW.
Let's skip down to the stuff we are talking about, whether it is a mortal sin to miss the Mass.
25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Now he tells us not to forsake our assembly because he has heard that some are doing so.
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
He describes it as a willful sin. And we should not sin willfully because that means we are rejecting the Sacrifice of Christ on the Cross for our sins.
27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
We have become adversaries by doing so and God's judgment will devour us.
28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Notice here, in the Old Testament, if a man missed the gathering, he was stoned to death! What is more important, the OT or the NT? What is more important, our bodily death or our spiritual death?
29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Do you not understand that those who willfully miss the Mass and never repent are going to die the spiritual death! They have walked all over the Body of Christ which hung on the Cross for their salvation and they have cast the Blood of the Lord aside as though it were an unholy thing! They have turned against the Spirit of God's Grace.
It is not a sin not to get together. Your religion condemns people for not going to a place that will be condemned, how ironic. The Bible says there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, yet to have the priest tell everyone they are committing a mortal sin and will be condemned if not repented of is evil. There is no such command from Jesus that says it is a mortal sin not to gather. That is a lie.
The Scripture is clear.
My reply: Catholics teach against the Truth! I show you from the Bible, yet you still do not believe.
On the contrary, I am showing you from the Bible and you still don't believe.
Sincerely,
De Maria
ReplyDeleteChristians Truth said...
My reply: There is no such teachings from Jesus that the Catholics do, only teachings against what the Catholics do.
I will let reasonable people judge between you and I. I have provided the Scripture, you simply provide denials.
My reply: Bible means ‘book.’
The word "Bible" is not in the original Scripture. It is an English word and the original Scriptures were not written in English.
My reply: Not in ANY language do the scriptures say what Catholics teach and practice.
Again, I'll let reasonable people decide between you and I. I am showing you from Scripture, you simply deny.
I said: My point is that the word Mass does not have to be written explicitly in Scripture for me to see the Mass therein described.
You replied: There is nowhere the description in the Bible what the Catholics teach, only what we are not supposed to do!
It is everywhere, you simply deny the Word of God.
My reply: Did not Moses himself make the bronze snake? Did not people live when they looked at the bronze snake? Was not the bronze snake destroyed because the Israelites burned incense to it? I understand the Catholic religion; the Catholic religion goes against the word of God, and they do this claiming they only look as if they are sinning, that they really have a good reason for doing what they are doing. Do NOT incense material objects! That in itself is a form of worship. Do you not think the Israelites KNEW about God? Do you not think the Israelites KNEW Moses made the bronze snake? Think!
It is you who needs to think. WHOM does that brazen Serpent represent?
John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Do you have pictures of your family anywhere? Those are images, just like any statue. And if you adorn them with flowers or fancy woodwork, you must also worship them.
But we know the difference between stone or wood and ALLMIGHTY GOD. Apparently, you don't.
My reply: That would be funny, except it is too serious a falseness to laugh.
It is absolutely true. The Catholic Church wrote the New Testament and codified the New and the Old together in the Bible.
My reply: Oh no, the Catholic Mass is not a gathering to hear the truth; the Catholic Mass is a place where blasphemies of all kinds are committed. You have up front a priest whom parishioners call ‘father.’
1 Cor 4:15
You have statues all over that the parishioners bow. You have the priest incensing the “Holy Images” and bowing to them at the altar.
Numbers 21:8;19
You have the priest claiming he can turn the wafer into the real body of Christ, and the wine into the real blood of Jesus.
Luke 22:19
You have prayers to Mary
Luke 1:48
and other Catholic “Saints.”
Matt 10:40
No, the Catholic Mass is nothing like the gatherings of the true believers in the Bible
The Catholic Mass is the gathering of True Believers.
My reply: I would not step foot again in such an evil place as the Catholic Church.
May God forgive you:
Hebrews 10:
29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Sincerely,
De Maria
ReplyDeleteChristians Truth said...
De Maria, I would love to continue debating you on your blog; however, one blog of mine that I want you to read and then post your defense. The name of the post I want to discuss with you is Catholic Influence Part 2 Pictures. Here is the link: http://christianstruth.blogspot.com/2011/11/catholic-influence-demolished-part-2.html
Ok.
Sincerely,
De Maria
You said: It didn't take the Eunuch long to learn ONCE he was taught by the Church. But what does Scripture say about someone reading Scripture without a teacher:
ReplyDeleteActs 8:29Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.30And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?31And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
My reply: No matter how many times you bring up the same passage, it still does not say the eunuch went to church every Sunday to learn, and it does not say it is a mortal sin not to go.
You said: Lol! Why do you make things up about the Catholic Church? If you actually understood the Catholic Church, you would be able to produce the actual teachings and argue against them. But instead, you hate the Church so much, you simply make things up and argue against the things you make up. The Catholic Church teaches that the ENTIRE NEW TESTAMENT is from Tradition. Here is the teaching from the Catechism:
My reply: I do not make up things about the Catholic Church; however, you do not keep yourself from making things up about me. If what you say about the Catholic Church is true, that the only Tradition they rely on is what is written in the Bible, THEN WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY TO PRAY TO THE DEAD SAINTS? WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY MARY IS MEDIATRIX? WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY TO EXHUME DEAD PEOPLE AND CANONIZE THEM AS SAINTS? WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY TO CALL YOUR CHURCH LEADER ‘FATHER’? WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY FOR THE PRIESTS TO WHERE LONG FLOWING ROBES AND BIG HATS? WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY TO HAVE A SPECIAL SEAT FOR THE POPE? WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY TO BOW TO THE POPE AND KISS HIS FEET? WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY TO MAKE STATUES AND BOW AND INCENSE THEM? WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY TO PRAY TO RELICS FOR A HEALING? Your religion goes against the word of God!
You said: The Catholic Church teaches the fullness of the Truth.
My reply: The Catholic Church teaches things from demons.
You said: Some of you believe some things that are true. I hope that you believe that Jesus is God. But many of you, don't. Take for instance, the Jehovahs. Some of you believe in the Real Presence of Jesus Christ when you break bread, such as the Lutherans. But some of you, such as Evangelicals, don't. You're a mixed bag. You care little about the doctrine which saves:
My reply: You do not know enough of what I believe, so how do you say, “Some of you believe…” You have the nerve to say to me “Some of you…” Your own Catholic religion has many different sects. I believe in only the Word of God.
You said: 1 Timothy 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
Everyone of you makes up your own doctrines and teaches that.
My reply: I only believe in the Word of God.
You said: That is really funny. You didn't even read the Scripture. Let me help you:
ReplyDeleteHebrews 10
1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect…..
First he tells us that the Old Testament is only a shadow of the New. Believe it or not, some of you non-Catholics who don't listen to the Church, actually say that the Old Testament is more important.
My reply: What are you talking about when you say, “Some of you non-Catholics …say that the Old Testament is more important”? You need to stop saying, “some of you…” Debate me, and stop bringing others into it.
You said: Let's skip down to the stuff we are talking about, whether it is a mortal sin to miss the Mass.
25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
My reply: Paul is now talking about exhorting one another, exhorting each other about NOT SINNING, NOT exhorting each other about not gathering!
You said: Now he tells us not to forsake our assembly because he has heard that some are doing so.
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
My reply: Paul is speaking about willfully sinning, not about not gathering! Are you that blind?
You said: 28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Notice here, in the Old Testament, if a man missed the gathering, he was stoned to death! What is more important, the OT or the NT? What is more important, our bodily death or our spiritual death?
My reply: You need to always show scripture when you want to make claims to me about your beliefs. In addition, you REALLY need to explain what you are trying to say with that last statement!
You said: Do you not understand that those who willfully miss the Mass and never repent are going to die the spiritual death! They have walked all over the Body of Christ which hung on the Cross for their salvation and they have cast the Blood of the Lord aside as though it were an unholy thing! They have turned against the Spirit of God's Grace.
My reply: You are lost.
You said: I will let reasonable people judge between you and I. I have provided the Scripture, you simply provide denials.
ReplyDeleteMy reply: Who are the reasonable people to judge between you and me?
You said: My point is that the word Mass does not have to be written explicitly in Scripture for me to see the Mass therein described.
My reply: Catholics do things that God says not to!
You said: It is you who needs to think. WHOM does that brazen Serpent represent?
My reply: I know whom the bronze snake represents. How does what you say defend that the Catholics incense statues and other objects?
You said: Do you have pictures of your family anywhere? Those are images, just like any statue. And if you adorn them with flowers or fancy woodwork, you must also worship them.
My reply: I obey God by not incensing material objects. However, you sin by defending such blasphemy.
You said: But we know the difference between stone or wood and ALLMIGHTY GOD. Apparently, you don't.
My reply: The bronze snake was destroyed because the Israelites burned incense to it. The bronze snake was made of bronze, so how are you not guilty of burning incense to objects and not sinning for doing so?
You said: It is absolutely true. The Catholic Church wrote the New Testament and codified the New and the Old together in the Bible.
My reply: No way is what you say true.
You said: May God forgive you:
My reply: I am telling you the error of your ways, you are being explained the word of God. I pray that you repent to God, through Jesus Christ.
Christians Truth said...My reply: No matter how many times you bring up the same passage, it still does not say the eunuch went to church every Sunday to learn, and it does not say it is a mortal sin not to go.
ReplyDeleteIt is Heb 10 which says that it is a mortal sin to miss the Mass. This verse says that Scripture needs to be taught by the Church because there is a danger that the reader may misunderstand. My reply: I do not make up things about the Catholic Church; however, you do not keep yourself from making things up about me. If what you say about the Catholic Church is true, that the only Tradition they rely on is what is written in the Bible, THEN WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY TO PRAY TO THE DEAD SAINTS?
The Bible says that when the Saints die, they remain alive in Christ. Do you deny this? John 11:26
The Bible says that the Saints are always watching over us. Do you deny this? Hebrews 12:1
The Bible says that the Saints watch and pray concerning the events in heaven. Do you deny this? Revelation 8:3
The Bible says that the Saints, the Body of Christ, are attached to each other, belong to each other and are concerned for each other. Do you deny this? Romans 12:5
The Bible commands all the Saints to intercede for each other. Do you deny this? 1 Timothy 2:1
The Spiritual man discerns the Spiritiual truths here revealed and realizes that God has commanded us to pray to the Saints in heaven for their intercession. As they are our brothers and we who commune with them in the Sacraments walk amongst them in the heavenly plane:
Hebrews 12:22-24
King James Version (KJV)
22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Christian Truth said:
ReplyDeleteWHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY MARY IS MEDIATRIX?
The Bible says that God loves those who love Him and does not love, indeed hates, those who hate Him. Do you deny this? Romans 9:13
The Bible says that God loves certain men more than He loves others. Do you deny this? Numbers 12:4-7
The Bible says that God hears the prayers of the Just Man (or Woman) above all others. Do you deny this? James 5:16
The Bible says that Mary is Jesus' Mother. Jesus is God therefore Mary loves God more than any mortal that ever lived. Do you deny this?
Luke 1:43
By virtue of the fact that Mary is the instrument which God used to save the world by bringing forth His Only Begotten Son through her, she is the Mediatrix of All Grace. Because Jesus Christ is all grace. Do you deny this? Colossians 1:15
By virtue of all this, Mary is the Mediatrix of all grace.
WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY TO EXHUME DEAD PEOPLE AND CANONIZE THEM AS SAINTS?
It doesn't. The Bible says that the Church binds on earth and in heaven (Matt 16:19). Do you deny this? Because that says that the Church decides who is a saint and who isn't. And there is nothing in Scripture forbidding the exhuming and canonizing of Saints.
WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY TO CALL YOUR CHURCH LEADER ‘FATHER’?
The Bible says that the Apostles considered themselves our fathers and we continue giving our leaders this honorary title:
1 Corinthians 4:15
WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY FOR THE PRIESTS TO WHERE LONG FLOWING ROBES AND BIG HATS?
The priests have done so from time immemorial and the Catholic Church has not changed:
Exodus 31:10 And the cloths of service, and the holy garments for Aaron the priest, and the garments of his sons, to minister in the priest's office,
WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY TO HAVE A SPECIAL SEAT FOR THE POPE?
The Papal Seat is the continuation of Moses' Seat:
Exodus 18:13; Matthew 23:2; Matthew 16:18
Sincerely,
De Maria
Christian Truth said:
ReplyDeleteWHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY TO BOW TO THE POPE AND KISS HIS FEET?
It doesn't.
1. But the Pope represents Christ to us. When a Catholic kisses a Pope or a Bishop or a Priest, he is kissing Jesus whom they represent. 2 Corinthians 5:20
2. The Bible does not forbid doing obeisance to God's anointed. Exodus 3:1; Exodus 18:7; 2 Samuel 1:2
WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY TO MAKE STATUES AND BOW AND INCENSE THEM?
The Bible does not forbid making statues as long as they are not for idolatry:
Exodus 25:18
The Bible does not forbid us honoring our saints: Matthew 10:42
The Bible says that incense represents the prayers of the Saints:
Revelation 8:3
And recommends perpetual incense: Exodus 30:8; Malachi 1:1
WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY TO PRAY TO RELICS FOR A HEALING?
We don't pray to relics as I have already mentioned. Relics are used as recommended in the New Testament:
Acts 19:12
We do, however, pray to the Saints whose relics we are using, for their intercession before God:
Acts 3:2-7; John 14:12
Your religion goes against the word of God!
My reply: The Catholic Church teaches things from demons.
Nope. You talk about things you don't understand.
My reply: You do not know enough of what I believe,
That's not a good thing friend. You see, the Gospel of Jesus Christ has been around 2000 years. It is not hidden, it is not gnostic. Apparently, yours is, since you are the only man who believes the way you do. Apparently, God only wants to save you. Because you don't agree with any other man's understanding of the Word of God.
so how do you say, “Some of you believe…”
Because you are par for the course as regards those who refuse to listen to the Church. Your doctrines come and go with the wind.
You have the nerve to say to me “Some of you…” Your own Catholic religion has many different sects. I believe in only the Word of God.
All the Catholic sects believe the same thing. They simply emphasize different spiritual gifts. Some are teachers, some are healers, some help the poor. But we all believe the same doctrines.
My reply: I only believe in the Word of God.
You only believe in YOUR word.
Sincerely,
De Maria
ReplyDeleteChristians Truth said...
My reply: What are you talking about when you say, “Some of you non-Catholics …say that the Old Testament is more important”? You need to stop saying, “some of you…” Debate me, and stop bringing others into it.
Ok.
My reply: Paul is now talking about exhorting one another, exhorting each other about NOT SINNING, NOT exhorting each other about not gathering!
St. Paul is talking about the Mass. We can correlate to 1 Cor 10:16.
My reply: Paul is speaking about willfully sinning, not about not gathering! Are you that blind?
He is talking about willfully missing the Mass. Willfully missing the Mass is willfully committing sin.
My reply: You need to always show scripture when you want to make claims to me about your beliefs.
I am doing so. You simply keep denying everything I post and say. But that's ok. I know that we disagree on these things. I'm not here to convince you of anything. I'm simply posting the Catholic answer for whomever might decide to read this blog.
In addition, you REALLY need to explain what you are trying to say with that last statement!
Spiritual death is the definition of a mortal sin:
1 John 5:16
My reply: You are lost.
No friend. You are a Catholic who has rejected the Sacrifice of our Lord. It is you who are lost:
Heb 6:4-6
Sincerely,
De Maria
ReplyDeleteChristians Truth said...
My reply: Who are the reasonable people to judge between you and me?
Whoever reads our debate. My reply: Catholics do things that God says not to!
I believe I have proven that is a false statement.
My reply: I know whom the bronze snake represents. How does what you say defend that the Catholics incense statues and other objects?
My reply: I obey God by not incensing material objects. However, you sin by defending such blasphemy.
The Bible does not forbid us honoring our saints: Matthew 10:42
The Bible says that incense represents the prayers of the Saints: Revelation 8:3
And recommends perpetual incense: Exodus 30:8; Malachi 1:1
My reply: The bronze snake was destroyed because the Israelites burned incense to it. The bronze snake was made of bronze, so how are you not guilty of burning incense to objects and not sinning for doing so?
The bronze snake was destroyed because the Israelites were worshipping it. We worship only God and the incense we burn is only for God.
My reply: No way is what you say true.
It is. The Word of God in Tradition and Scripture is taught by the Catholic Church. The New Testament was written by the Catholic Church.
My reply: I am telling you the error of your ways, you are being explained the word of God. I pray that you repent to God, through Jesus Christ.
I pray the same for you.
Anyway, thanks for the brisk discussion. I'm sorry I haven't had time recently to answer more promptly.
Sincerely,
De Maria
You said: It is Heb 10 which says that it is a mortal sin to miss the Mass. This verse says that Scripture needs to be taught by the Church because there is a danger that the reader may misunderstand.
ReplyDeleteMy reply: Hebrews 10 does not say what you claim.
You said: The Bible says that when the Saints die, they remain alive in Christ. Do you deny this? John 11:26
My reply: The soul sleep doctrine is a doctrine of death. Those who love Jesus will continue to live in heaven with him spiritually after the death of the physical body.
You said: The Bible says that the Saints are always watching over us. Do you deny this? Hebrews 12:1
My reply: You need to clarify what you mean by “watching over us.” Watching us and watching OVER us are two different things.
You said: The Bible says that the Saints watch and pray concerning the events in heaven. Do you deny this? Revelation 8:3
My reply: Revelation 8:3 talks about the prayers of the saints.
You said: The Bible commands all the Saints to intercede for each other. Do you deny this? 1 Timothy 2:1
My reply: We are to pray TO GOD for others.
You said: The Spiritual man discerns the Spiritiual truths here revealed and realizes that God has commanded us to pray to the Saints in heaven for their intercession.
My reply: What happened? You completely stopped using scripture. The scriptures do not say what you just did. Nowhere does God tell us to pray TO anyone besides Him.
You said: As they are our brothers and we who commune with them in the Sacraments walk amongst them in the heavenly plane:
My reply: Again, we are to pray FOR others, and we can ask others to pray FOR us. HOWEVER, WE ARE NOT TO PRAY TO ANYONE EXCEPT GOD.
You said: The Bible says that Mary is Jesus' Mother. Jesus is God therefore Mary loves God more than any mortal that ever lived. Do you deny this?
ReplyDeleteLuke 1:43
My reply: Mary is the mother of human Jesus. God does not have a mother. Where do you get to say that Mary loves God more than any mortal that ever lived does? In addition, how do you think that you can use that as a means to put Mary in as a fourth person, even taking the position in many ways of that of Jesus!
You said: By virtue of the fact that Mary is the instrument which God used to save the world by bringing forth His Only Begotten Son through her, she is the Mediatrix of All Grace.
My reply: You are trying to bring in the blasphemous doctrine of elevating Mary to that of a fourth person in the Three.
You said: Because Jesus Christ is all grace. Do you deny this? Colossians 1:15
My reply: How do you think you can use Colossians 1:5 to support what you just said?
I said: WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY TO EXHUME DEAD PEOPLE AND CANONIZE THEM AS SAINTS?
You said: It doesn't. The Bible says that the Church binds on earth and in heaven (Matt 16:19). Do you deny this? Because that says that the Church decides who is a saint and who isn't. And there is nothing in Scripture forbidding the exhuming and canonizing of Saints.
My reply: the Apostles, and the Prophets, and Jesus Christ himself as chief cornerstone laid the foundation, see Hebrews 2:4, and the foundation IS LAID, see Ephesians 2:20. What the Apostles, and Prophets could do, is not everything that we can do, and we cannot ADD to the foundation that is already laid! NO ONE CAN ADD TO GOD’S WORD. What Jesus said to the Apostles, is NOT what is a given to anyone else. The Catholic popes and priests do not get the authority the Apostles have. The popes and priests do not get to add to God’s word!
You said: The Bible says that the Apostles considered themselves our fathers and we continue giving our leaders this honorary title:
My reply: The Apostles were among the first brothers to Jesus. The apostles did not tell anyone to call them father. They are all brothers. No brothers called the Apostles ‘father.’ Jesus commanded us not to.
You said: The priests have done so from time immemorial and the Catholic Church has not changed:
Exodus 31:10 And the cloths of service, and the holy garments for Aaron the priest, and the garments of his sons, to minister in the priest's office,
My reply: We are not worshiping in an earthly Tabernacle anymore.
You said: The Papal Seat is the continuation of Moses' Seat:
My reply: No such thing of the Catholic Papists. Jesus says, “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. “ Where does Jesus say what you say, that the “Papal Seat is the continuation of Moses’ Seat”? Jesus said, “So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.” Are you using what Jesus says to support the disobedience of Catholic popes and priests? Jesus calls them hypocrites! Do you want to put in place of your leadership men that are hypocrites? Do you want to obey men who go against Jesus?
I said: WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY TO BOW TO THE POPE AND KISS HIS FEET?
ReplyDeleteYou said: It doesn't.
1. But the Pope represents Christ to us. When a Catholic kisses a Pope or a Bishop or a Priest, he is kissing Jesus whom they represent. 2 Corinthians 5:20
My reply: WHEN CORNELIUS IN REVERENCE FELL AT the feet of Peter, Peter made him get up. “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.” See Acts 10:25-26.
You said: 2. The Bible does not forbid doing obeisance to God's anointed. Exodus 3:1; Exodus 18:7; 2 Samuel 1:2
My reply: Let it be noted that you do not use scripture that support your beliefs. Try writing out the scripture in a sentence explaining what you believe. You cannot do so because your beliefs go against scripture. In the New Testament, God calls us all saints and priests, and WE ARE BROTHERS AND SERVANTS, AND WE ARE NOT TO BE BOWED DOWN TO, NOT EVEN THE ANGELS OF GOD ARE TO BE BOWED TO, SEE Revelation 19:10.
You said: We don't pray to relics as I have already mentioned. Relics are used as recommended in the New Testament:
My reply: Catholics DO pray to relics and ask for healing from them. Do a simple Google search and study.
You said: We do, however, pray to the Saints whose relics we are using, for their intercession before God:
My reply: Here you admit that you pray TO saints. Healing comes from God, not the saints.
You said: That's not a good thing friend. You see, the Gospel of Jesus Christ has been around 2000 years. It is not hidden, it is not gnostic. Apparently, yours is, since you are the only man who believes the way you do. Apparently, God only wants to save you. Because you don't agree with any other man's understanding of the Word of God.
My reply: Many are called, few are chosen. "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.” See Matthew 7:13-14.
You said: Your doctrines come and go with the wind.
My reply: The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." See John 3:8.
I said: Paul is now talking about exhorting one another, exhorting each other about NOT SINNING, NOT exhorting each other about not gathering!
ReplyDeleteYou said: St. Paul is talking about the Mass. We can correlate to 1 Cor 10:16.
My reply: 1 Corinthians 10:16 is about not making idols out of the cup and bread.
I said: Paul is speaking about willfully sinning, not about not gathering! Are you that blind?
You said: He is talking about willfully missing the Mass. Willfully missing the Mass is willfully committing sin.
My reply: Again, Paul is not saying it is a mortal sin to miss gathering.
You said: I'm simply posting the Catholic answer for whomever might decide to read this blog.
My reply: We are to obey God, not men! See Acts 5:29.
You said: No friend. You are a Catholic who has rejected the Sacrifice of our Lord. It is you who are lost:
Heb 6:4-6
My reply: No way, I am not a Catholic. You use scripture as Satan does. Jesus Christ Himself saved me. Jesus revealed Himself to me, after I obeyed Him!! Trust in God, not in men. Do what the scriptures say, and God will reveal Himself to you, that is what Jesus Christ says. Try it, De Maria. Try it.
You said: The bronze snake was destroyed because the Israelites were worshipping it. We worship only God and the incense we burn is only for God.
ReplyDeleteMy reply: Catholics burn incense to objects, the bronze snake was destroyed for that!
You said: Anyway, thanks for the brisk discussion. I'm sorry I haven't had time recently to answer more promptly.
My reply: You are welcome! I have noticed that it is taken you longer than once was to get back to me. I hope that you go to my post about the testimony of a former Roman Catholic Priest. Please read it carefully, and let us discuss it together, okay? Take your time, but I hope to discuss with you soon. Talk with you later…
Christians Truth said...
ReplyDeleteMy reply: The soul sleep doctrine is a doctrine of death. Those who love Jesus will continue to live in heaven with him spiritually after the death of the physical body.
I didn't say anything about soul sleep. I said:
The Bible says that when the Saints die, they remain alive in Christ. Do you deny this? John 11:26
My reply: You need to clarify what you mean by “watching over us.” Watching us and watching OVER us are two different things.
Either one will do in this case.
Scripture says that the Saints are watching us. Do you deny this?
Scripture says that the Saints are watching over us. Do you deny this?
My reply: Revelation 8:3 talks about the prayers of the saints.
In response to things happening on earth. My reply: We are to pray TO GOD for others.
I take that as a "yes".
My reply: What happened? You completely stopped using scripture.
I posted Scripture and then explained it to you.
The scriptures do not say what you just did.
Yes, it does. If you understand the Spirit of the Word.
Nowhere does God tell us to pray TO anyone besides Him.
To whom is this person praying?
Genesis 12:13 Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee.
My reply: Again, we are to pray FOR others, and we can ask others to pray FOR us. HOWEVER, WE ARE NOT TO PRAY TO ANYONE EXCEPT GOD.
See the question right above. As I told you before, you understand words in a worldly sense. We use them in accordance with the Spirit of God taught by the Church.
Sincerely,
De Maria
ReplyDeleteChristians Truth said... My reply: Mary is the mother of human Jesus.
Are you denying that Jesus is God?
God does not have a mother.
God gave Himself a mother, Mary.
Where do you get to say that Mary loves God more than any mortal that ever lived does?
She is the Mother of God. And mothers love their children more than any other mortal beings.
In addition, how do you think that you can use that as a means to put Mary in as a fourth person, even taking the position in many ways of that of Jesus!
I have no idea what you are talking about. Mary is a member of the Body of Christ. But she is most important member, because she gave birth to the Body. She gave birth to Christ without whom we would not be saved.
My reply: You are trying to bring in the blasphemous doctrine of elevating Mary to that of a fourth person in the Three.
Do you deny that Christ is all grace? Do you deny that Mary brought Him forth from her womb? My reply: How do you think you can use Colossians 1:5 to support what you just said?
First answer the question. Do you deny that Jesus Christ is all grace? Yes or no.
My reply: the Apostles, and the Prophets, and Jesus Christ himself as chief cornerstone laid the foundation, see Hebrews 2:4, and the foundation IS LAID, see Ephesians 2:20. What the Apostles, and Prophets could do, is not everything that we can do, and we cannot ADD to the foundation that is already laid!
What? We can't be Saints? That is precisely why Jesus came. In order that we could become Saints:
1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
NO ONE CAN ADD TO GOD’S WORD.
That is true. But you do. That is why I don't follow your interpretation of the Word but follow the Catholic Church, the Pillar and Foundation of the Truth.
What Jesus said to the Apostles, is NOT what is a given to anyone else. The Catholic popes and priests do not get the authority the Apostles have. The popes and priests do not get to add to God’s word!
The Church is God's voice on earth. It is the Church which is authorized by God to teach His Wisdom (Ephesians 3:10).
cont'd
cont'd
ReplyDeleteChristian Truth said:
My reply: The Apostles were among the first brothers to Jesus. The apostles did not tell anyone to call them father. They are all brothers. No brothers called the Apostles ‘father.’ Jesus commanded us not to.
Scripture is clear that St. Paul considered himself our father through the Gospel. As did St. John the Apostle. We follow the Apostolic Tradition.
My reply: We are not worshiping in an earthly Tabernacle anymore.
Thank you! The Mass is the joining of the earthly worship to the heavenly Liturgy, where they continue to dress in robes:
Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
My reply: No such thing of the Catholic Papists. Jesus says, “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. “ Where does Jesus say what you say, that the “Papal Seat is the continuation of Moses’ Seat”?
He says so right here, where He calls Simon by His Own Name, Rock, thus indicating that Simon is now the Rock who guides the Church and who has the power to bind on earth and in heaven (Matt 16:18-19).
Jesus said, “So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.” Are you using what Jesus says to support the disobedience of Catholic popes and priests?
I am using it to show you that Jesus respects the authority of men whom God placed in authority over us. He specifically says, "obey them". But of His own disciples, whose followers are now in the Catholic Church, Jesus says:
John 17:
20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Jesus calls them hypocrites!
Jesus calls the Pharisees hypocrites. Quit adding to God's word your own presuppositions.
Do you want to put in place of your leadership men that are hypocrites? Do you want to obey men who go against Jesus?
That is precisely what you do. Therefore, the answer is no. I don't follow those who go against the Word of God.
Sincerely,
De Maria
ReplyDeleteChristians Truth said...
My reply: WHEN CORNELIUS IN REVERENCE FELL AT the feet of Peter, Peter made him get up. “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.” See Acts 10:25-26.
Divide the word rightly, please. Let us see what Scripture actually says:
Acts 10:25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
My reply: Let it be noted that you do not use scripture that support your beliefs. Try writing out the scripture in a sentence explaining what you believe. You cannot do so because your beliefs go against scripture.
1. All you need to do is run your mouse over the reference and it becomes visible.
2. I frequently do write it out. It doesn't seem to help your understanding.
3. Is the word "obeisance" giving you a problem? Those references all had examples of men giving "obeisance" to Kings and to God's anointed servants.
In the New Testament, God calls us all saints and priests, and WE ARE BROTHERS AND SERVANTS, AND WE ARE NOT TO BE BOWED DOWN TO, NOT EVEN THE ANGELS OF GOD ARE TO BE BOWED TO, SEE Revelation 19:10.
We are not to be bowed down to in worship. Neither are Saints. But the verses I already posted show men bowing (doing obeisance) to men. And this verse shows Joshua, doing obeisance to the leader of God's army, St. Michael, the archangel (Rev 12:7):
Joshua 5:14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant?
Did St. Michael instruct him to get up? No. Because he did not worship him as God, but as the Captain of God's armies, did him homage.
My reply: Catholics DO pray to relics and ask for healing from them.
No, we don't.
Do a simple Google search and study.
Therefore it should be very simple for you to provide an example of a prayer to a relic and not to the Saint whom we venerate through his relic.
In the meantime, here's a google search reference:
Google list
Show me even one which has a prayer to the bone or artifact. Here's an excellent teaching on the relics.
And here's an example of the prayers referenced.
My reply: Here you admit that you pray TO saints. Healing comes from God, not the saints.
Again, to whom is this person, highlighted in Scripture, praying?
1 Kings 20:32 So they girded sackcloth on their loins, and put ropes on their heads, and came to the king of Israel, and said, Thy servant Benhadad saith, I pray thee, let me live. And he said, Is he yet alive? he is my brother.
My reply: Many are called, few are chosen. "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.” See Matthew 7:13-14.
A few. Not simply one. Since you follow no man but only your interpretation of the Word of God, you do not fall in the category of a few.
My reply: The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." See John 3:8.
Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
The doctrines which you teach are not of the Spirit.
Sincerely,
De Maria
ReplyDeleteChristians Truth said...
My reply: 1 Corinthians 10:16 is about not making idols out of the cup and bread.
It is about the Mass, about discerning the Body and Blood of the Lord in the bread and wine.
My reply: Again, Paul is not saying it is a mortal sin to miss gathering.
Yes, he is.
My reply: We are to obey God, not men! See Acts 5:29.
Scripture says we are to obey the men whom God put over us to lead us:
Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
My reply: No way, I am not a Catholic.
You have rejected Catholicism, as you said. And have thus condemned yourself.
You use scripture as Satan does. Jesus Christ Himself saved me. Jesus revealed Himself to me, after I obeyed Him!! Trust in God, not in men. Do what the scriptures say, and God will reveal Himself to you, that is what Jesus Christ says. Try it, De Maria. Try it.
God has revealed Himself to me. He is in the Holy Eucharist of the Catholic Church. Come back to the Catholic Church and taste and see the goodness of God.
Sincerely,
De Maria
ReplyDeleteChristians Truth said...
My reply: Catholics burn incense to objects, the bronze snake was destroyed for that!
We burn incense only for God.
My reply: You are welcome! I have noticed that it is taken you longer than once was to get back to me. I hope that you go to my post about the testimony of a former Roman Catholic Priest. Please read it carefully, and let us discuss it together, okay? Take your time, but I hope to discuss with you soon. Talk with you later…
Ok.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Christians Truth, said:
ReplyDeleteI hope that you go to my post about the testimony of a former Roman Catholic Priest. Please read it carefully, and let us discuss it together,
I looked for it but could not identify it on your blog. Please post a link.
Sincerely,
De Maria
I said: My reply: You need to clarify what you mean by “watching over us.” Watching us and watching OVER us are two different things.
ReplyDeleteYou said: Either one will do in this case.
My reply: No, either one will not do.
You said: Yes, it does. If you understand the Spirit of the Word.
My reply: Surely, your Catholic religion is from Satan.
You said: To whom is this person praying?
Genesis 12:13 Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee.
My reply: That is evil for you to think that Genesis 12:13 gives us command to pray to others. Genesis 12:13 Say you are my sister, so that I will be treated well for your sake and my life will be spared because of you.”
You said: God gave Himself a mother, Mary.
ReplyDeleteMy reply: Mary is the mother of human Jesus. God does not have a mother. Are you claiming Mary came before God?
You said: She is the Mother of God. And mothers love their children more than any other mortal beings.
My reply: John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.
I said: In addition, how do you think that you can use that as a means to put Mary in as a fourth person, even taking the position in many ways of that of Jesus!
You said: I have no idea what you are talking about. Mary is a member of the Body of Christ. But she is most important member, because she gave birth to the Body. She gave birth to Christ without whom we would not be saved.
My reply: God can make children from rocks! In addition, you say you have no idea what I am talking about as for Catholics making Mary as the fourth person, Catholics say that we are to go through Mary to get to Jesus. Catholics say we should go to Mary with our requests to Jesus. That is wickedness from the devil.
You said: What? We can't be Saints? That is precisely why Jesus came. In order that we could become Saints:
My reply: Are you just asking ignorant questions to appear smart? Where do you get we cannot be saints? We are not the Apostles.
I said: NO ONE CAN ADD TO GOD’S WORD.
You said: That is true. But you do. That is why I don't follow your interpretation of the Word but follow the Catholic Church, the Pillar and Foundation of the Truth.
My reply: I do not add to God’s word. Show one thing I added to God’s word, you cannot show any such thing.
You said: The Church is God's voice on earth. It is the Church which is authorized by God to teach His Wisdom (Ephesians 3:10).
My reply: You cannot add to God’s word, nor can your popes.
You said: Thank you! The Mass is the joining of the earthly worship to the heavenly Liturgy, where they continue to dress in robes:
ReplyDeleteMy reply: The Catholic Church is a religion of demons, not unlike other false religions.
You said: He says so right here, where He calls Simon by His Own Name, Rock, thus indicating that Simon is now the Rock who guides the Church and who has the power to bind on earth and in heaven (Matt 16:18-19).
My reply: Peter means little rock, not the exact name of Jesus. The authority Jesus gave to his Apostles are not given to your popes.
I said: Jesus calls them hypocrites!
You said: Jesus calls the Pharisees hypocrites. Quit adding to God's word your own presuppositions.
My reply: You are a false judge. Jesus called them hypocrites. I added nothing.
You said: That is precisely what you do. Therefore, the answer is no. I don't follow those who go against the Word of God.
My reply: I only follow the Word of God. You follow evil sinful men who call themselves “Holy Father.” Even you call them “Holy Father.” You need to repent! I am showing you the truth, and if you reject the truth it is on you.
I said: WHEN CORNELIUS IN REVERENCE FELL AT the feet of Peter, Peter made him get up. “Stand up,” he said, “I am only a man myself.” See Acts 10:25-26.
You said: Divide the word rightly, please. Let us see what Scripture actually says:
Acts 10:25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
My reply: I do divide the word correctly. You might not be blind, you might be willfully following and defending evil.
You said: We are not to be bowed down to in worship. Neither are Saints. But the verses I already posted show men bowing (doing obeisance) to men. And this verse shows Joshua, doing obeisance to the leader of God's army, St. Michael, the archangel (Rev 12:7):
My reply: Continue to sin and bow to your Holy Father the pope.
You said: A few. Not simply one. Since you follow no man but only your interpretation of the Word of God, you do not fall in the category of a few.
ReplyDeleteMy reply: I follow the Word of God. I am not the only one who knows the truth. You are wicked to think of such a thing.
You said: The doctrines which you teach are not of the Spirit.
My reply: I only speak of the written word of God.
I said: 1 Corinthians 10:16 is about not making idols out of the cup and bread.
You said: It is about the Mass, about discerning the Body and Blood of the Lord in the bread and wine.
My reply: It is about fleeing from idolatry. 14 Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry. 15 I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. 16 Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? 17 Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.
I said: Again, Paul is not saying it is a mortal sin to miss gathering.
You said: Yes, he is.
My reply: I proved to you that Paul was not talking about not gathering. Paul is telling the people to meet to tell each other about sins they need to stop doing, because to continue to sin is wrong.
You said: Scripture says we are to obey the men whom God put over us to lead us:
Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
My reply: You cannot hide behind the pope.
You said: You have rejected Catholicism, as you said. And have thus condemned yourself.
My reply: I did not find God’s truth until I left the Catholic religion and began to obey God’s written word. Jesus Christ himself saved me.
You said: God has revealed Himself to me. He is in the Holy Eucharist of the Catholic Church. Come back to the Catholic Church and taste and see the goodness of God.
ReplyDeleteMy reply: You said God has revealed Himself to you in the Eucharist; however, what you say is not biblical. Jesus says he reveals himself to those who obey his teachings.
You said: We burn incense only for God.
My reply: Your priests offer incense to statues that cannot speak, hear, move, or think!
This is the link to my post about the former Roman Catholic Priest. On that post will be a link to the former priest's testimony.
ReplyDeletehttp://christianstruth.blogspot.com/2011/08/testimony-of-former-roman-catholic.html?utm_source=BP_recent
Christians Truth said...
ReplyDeleteI said: My reply: You need to clarify what you mean by “watching over us.” Watching us and watching OVER us are two different things.
I did. I set them out separately so that you could reply to both. Here they are again, unless you are afraid to respond, please do:
Scripture says that the Saints are watching us. Do you deny this?
Or do you deny that Scripture says that the Saints are watching over us.
Which do you deny?
You said: Either one will do in this case. My reply: No, either one will not do.
They mean virtually the same thing. But you split hairs. Never mind. Please respond to the question.
You said: Yes, it does. If you understand the Spirit of the Word.
My reply: Surely, your Catholic religion is from Satan.
It is yours which is from Satan. But I don't think that line of argumentation is leading anywhere. We can accuse each other of following demons until we turn blue. So? But if that is all you have left, perhaps it is time to end our conversation? Let me know.
Sincerely,
De Maria
I asked:
ReplyDeleteTo whom is this person praying?
Genesis 12:13 Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee. My reply: That is evil for you to think that Genesis 12:13 gives us command to pray to others. Genesis 12:13 Say you are my sister, so that I will be treated well for your sake and my life will be spared because of you.”
I didn't see an answer to that question. Did I miss it?
ReplyDeleteChristians Truth said...
You said: She is the Mother of God. And mothers love their children more than any other mortal beings. My reply: John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.
So, you deny that Mother's love their children more than any other human beings?
My reply: God can make children from rocks! In addition, you say you have no idea what I am talking about as for Catholics making Mary as the fourth person, Catholics say that we are to go through Mary to get to Jesus. Catholics say we should go to Mary with our requests to Jesus. That is wickedness from the devil.
Jesus came to us through Mary (Revelation 12:3-5). Jesus gave Mary to us as our Mother (John 19:27) and we who keep the commandments of God and the testimony of Christ are her seed (Rev 12:17)
. My reply: Are you just asking ignorant questions to appear smart? Where do you get we cannot be saints? We are not the Apostles.
But we are the followers of the Apostles (John 17:20).
My reply: I do not add to God’s word. Show one thing I added to God’s word, you cannot show any such thing.
Sure I can and have. You claim that Jesus forbid the calling of priest's "father". Where it is clear that even the Apostles considered themselves our fathers. And they called many men "father". Even their own brothers. But you make up a new invention based upon your ignorance of Tradition and claim that is the Word of God. It is not.
My reply: You cannot add to God’s word, nor can your popes.
We don't. Nor do the Popes. The Church understands God's word. Whereas, you don't. That is why you need the Church.
My reply: Peter means little rock, not the exact name of Jesus.
ReplyDeleteIt doesn't mean little rock, actually. The fact is that "petra" is the feminine word for rock. And "petros" is the masculine word for rock, in Greek. St. Matthew used the word "petros" because Peter is a man. However, everyone agrees and Scripture indicates that Jesus did not speak to them in Greek. Jesus named Simon, "Cephas", which is the only way to say "Rock" in Aramaic (John 1:42).
And we can begin to show then, that Jesus named Simon after Himself, as He is the Rock. Do you deny it? Let me show you.
Jesus said:
Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
But let us proceed to prove that Peter represents God.
Is Moses God? Of course not. But what did God say?
Exodus 7 1 And the Lord said to Moses: Behold I have appointed thee the God of Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
Why did God call Moses God? Because He appointed Moses as His representative before Pharoah and the people:
Exodus 19 9 The Lord said to him: Lo, now will I come to thee in the darkness of a cloud, that the people may hear me speaking to thee, and may believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people to the Lord.
And what did God do in the New Testament? God also selected a man to represent Him. Simon Bar-Jonah.
Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Who is the Rock?
1 Corinthians 10 4 And all drank the same spiritual drink; (and they drank of the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.
Christ is the Rock!
And the Rock turned to Simon and said, "YOU ARE ROCK and on this Rock I will build my Church"
So God gave Simon the name that represents God.
2 Kings 22 2 And he said: The Lord is my rock, and my strength, and my saviour.
Why? Because Simon now represents God before men.
Therefore Jesus also gave Him the keys to the Kingdom:
Matthew 16 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.
Thereby giving Simon the authority to save. He can open and close the door to heaven, therefore, he can save.
And so, the Pope, the successor of Peter, is the representative of God before His People.
Therefore, you see, Christ named Simon after Himself and left Him in charge of His Church. That office is passed down to the Popes to this day.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Christian Truth said:
ReplyDeleteThe authority Jesus gave to his Apostles are not given to your popes.
Sure it is. My reply: You are a false judge. Jesus called them hypocrites. I added nothing.
Jesus called the Pharisees hypocrites. Not the Apostles nor the Bishops.
My reply: I only follow the Word of God. You follow evil sinful men who call themselves “Holy Father.” Even you call them “Holy Father.” You need to repent! I am showing you the truth, and if you reject the truth it is on you.
I'll let the reader decide between you and I. Sincerely,
De Maria
ReplyDeleteChristians Truth said...
My reply: I follow the Word of God.
You follow your own interprettations.
I am not the only one who knows the truth. You are wicked to think of such a thing.
Point to someone in the Church who believes as you do. You don't agree with the Reformers. You don't agree with the Early Church Fathers. You seem to have popped out of nowhere.
My reply: I only speak of the written word of God.
You don't understand the written Word of God. My reply: It is about fleeing from idolatry. 14 Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry. 15 I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. 16 Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? 17 Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.
Thanks for posting that. You have proven yourself that it is about the Body and Blood of the Lord in the Holy Eucharist.
My reply: I proved to you that Paul was not talking about not gathering. Paul is telling the people to meet to tell each other about sins they need to stop doing, because to continue to sin is wrong.
On the contrary, I proved to you that St. Paul is precisely talking about the Mass.
My reply: You cannot hide behind the pope.
You can't hide your contempt for the Word of God. Scripture tells you to obey those whom God placed over you and you reject His Word.
My reply: I did not find God’s truth until I left the Catholic religion and began to obey God’s written word. Jesus Christ himself saved me.
On the contrary, you began to embrace error and lies when you first decided you would leave the Catholic Church and have immersed yourself in false teaching since you left the House of the Living God.
Christian Truth said:
ReplyDeleteMy reply: You said God has revealed Himself to you in the Eucharist; however, what you say is not biblical. Jesus says he reveals himself to those who obey his teachings.
John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. My reply: Your priests offer incense to statues that cannot speak, hear, move, or think!
We know the difference between a statue and God.
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