Monday, July 25, 2016

A man can lose his salvation

De Maria October 27, 2012 at 1:15 AM
Hi Christopher Lake,
You said:
I am a former Catholic convert (from agnosticism). Do you know that the majority of the original Protestant Reformers (and those, like me, who follow in their footsteps today, such as Presbyterians and Reformed Baptists) did not hold to the articulation of “Once Saved, Always Saved” found here, but rather to the “Perserverance of the Saints,” which is a very different doctrine?
I didn’t know that.
It is true that genuine Christians will lead lives which are characterized by a hunger for holiness. If a person claims to be a Christian, trusting in Christ for his/her salvation, yet that person is not fighting sin and doing good works, he/she is quite likely not a genuine Christian.
That sounds reasonable.
Scripture states clearly that only the person who endures *to the end* (in faith) will be saved.
That is the Catholic Teaching.
However, Scripture also claims (of the converted person, the Christian) that “He (God) who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.” (Philippians 1:6, ESV) According to this verse, God began the good work in us through bringing us to conversion, and He will complete the good work in us that He began. He leaves no person who has been born again in such a state that the person can somehow become “un-born again.” This being said, God will complete His good work in us through our *perseverance* in the faith– which He Himself *ensures.*
Your stated assumption is that God “leaves no person who has been born again in such a state that the person can somehow become “un-born again.”
But this contradicts Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
St. Peter addresses this error more pointedly:
2 Peter 2:20-22
King James Version (KJV)
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
Therefore, it seems to me that your assumption that God saves all who are born again, is false, when compared to Scripture.
Again, from Paul’s letter to the Philippians, “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.” (2:12-13) We persevere in the faith– all *true* Christians do. We do so though, because God works in us, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. This is the Reformed, *Biblical* doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints (all Christians being called “saints” in the Bible, not just those who have been canonized).
1. All Christians are saints, that is Catholic Teaching. Have you ever heard of the communion of saints? That means that the saints on earth communicate with the saints in heaven.
2. The Reformed doctrine of the Perseverence of the Saints, is that precisely, a reformed innovation of the Gospel of Christ. In the Gospel of Christ, many who receive the Word fall away. God does not continue to work in them because they refuse to cooperate with God’s will:
Matthew 7:21-23
King James Version (KJV)
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Two last verses which show that for those who have been truly converted, they *will* persevere in the faith, *and* their salvation can also never be lost:
Let’s unpack those verses in context and in order.
“For those whom He foreknew
\Whom did He foreknow? He is God, so that means He foreknew everyone.
He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son,
That would be all mankind, wouldn’t it:
Genesis 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers.
That just says that God made us in order that we might become brothers of Christ:
Romans 8:15
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
For those whom He predestined He also called,
I believe Catholics and Protestants agree that God calls everyone with no exception.
1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
and those whom He called He also justified,
Here, the unspoken assumption must be that those who were called and obeyed:
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
For many are called, as the Scripture says:
Matthew 20:16
So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
and those whom He justified He also glorified.” (Romans 8:29-30, ESV)
Again, the assumption is that the justified did not turn away.
John 15:2-6
King James Version (KJV)
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
And these are the elect.
Matthew 24:31
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Those who remain. They who have persevered to the end and did not fall:
2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
In the second verse here, anyone who is predestined and called is also justified and glorified. There is no category left for people who were predestined, called, and justified, but who later lost their salvation.
Only if you read the Scripture without correlating to the rest of Scripture. If you allow two verses to contradict themselves, then that is what you get, two contradicting Scriptures. Scripture teaches that men can fall away from the faith. Therefore it is impossible that Scripture also teaches that men do not fall away from the faith.
1 Timothy 1:19
Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
If a person has been predestined, called, and justified by God, this verse states that he/she *will* be glorified. Again, this will not happen without the person’s perseverance in the faith to the end, but the perseverance is once which is empowered and ensured by God (Philippians 1:62:12-13).
That is reasonable if you are looking at it from the end. From the perspective of who is in heaven. Without God, they would not have persevered. That is Catholic Teaching.
But if you are looking at it from an earthly perspective and your understanding, as you seem to have explained earlier, is that everyone who is called will be justified and everyone justified will be glorified, you are wrong. It contradicts Catholic Teaching and the teaching of Scripture which Heb 6:6-10 and 2 Pet 2:20-22 clearly show.
This is what Protestant Reformed Christians believe. The “Once Saved, Always Saved” easy-believism without obedience to God is a relatively recent invention and is *not* faithful to the Protestant Reformation.
Depending upon what you mean above, it is either right or wrong. That which is right is in accordance with Catholic Teaching. That which is wrong is not.
Christopher Lake October 17, 2009 at 5:46 AMTypo– I meant to write, in in the last section of my comment that “this (glorification) will not happen without the person’s perseverance in the faith to the end, but the perseverance is *one* (rather than “once”– the typo to which I referred) which is empowered and ensured by God. I would love to read your reply to my (admittedly lengthy) comment! Take care and be blessed!
I don’t think the typo makes a difference in your meaning or my reply. I hope that you come back and read this reply and that it is helpful to you.
May you also be blessed exceedingly,
De Maria

Thursday, July 21, 2016

If a person has faith, then works will be present

De Maria October 26, 2012 at 11:57 PM
Hi Terry,
I was blissfully reading through Ray’s website when I ran across this comment, to which apparently, no one responded. Soooo…here’s my attempt.
You said,
Terry July 19, 2008 at 2:22 AMHi Steve, we are really saved by the Lord Jesus alone – not the Lord Jesus plus are own works .
That’s a false dichotomy Terry. Have you not read in Scripture?
Philippians 2:11-13
King James Version (KJV)
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
The works which we do in obedience to Christ for our salvation are in fact God’s work through us.
However if a person has faith then good works will be present.
That is the Catholic Teaching.
Please consider the following passage and my bried comment.

Romans 5:6 “You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.
When we were powerless means when we were without grace.
Christ died for the ungodly means that Christ died for all men. Ungodly means mortal.
7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die.
Christ died not just for the good but also for the wicked, that they might be repent and turn to God:
Matthew 9:13
But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
And this, through no work of our own. This is the salvation apart from works to which St. Paul so frequently refers. Christ died for us because it was in the eternal plan of God. Christ died as an example that we should follow in His steps:
1 Peter 2:21
For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
Christ died that we would take up our Cross and also be saved:
Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
But this is no teaching about faith alone. It is by the grace of God that Jesus came to this earth, the only begotten Son of God, to die on the Cross that we might have life. Without any effort on our part. In fact, He came because so many men were not making any effort to do the good works of God and He provided the example they needed in order to turn to the Father and be saved.
Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!
We-means the Baptized believers in Christ.
Justified by His blood-means justified in the Sacraments of Christ.
Saved from God’s wrath through Him-means by obedience to His Commands:
John 14:21-23
King James Version (KJV)
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. 22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? 23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
10 For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!
When we were God’s enemies means when we were living in the flesh, sinning without repentance:
Romans 6:16-17
King James Version (KJV)
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
What Paul is saying is that if God did the greater that is – saved us when we were powerless while we were ungodly sinners and his enemies then how much more shall we be saved now we are his children and part of His family.
St. Paul is taking poetic license. God does not save unrepentant sinners. God saves REPENTANT SINNERS. God saves the righteous. God saves those who have kept His Commandments:
Romans 2:1-7
King James Version (KJV)
1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. 2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. 3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Having become a child of God,
First you must be Baptized. Prior to that you must have accepted the grace of conversion, which is the gift of faith (Rom 4:16), turned to God and begun to seek Him (Rom 5:2Heb 11:6). And then, seeking Him, studied to show yourself approved (2 Tim 2:15). And then, having learned God’s will, repented of your sins and begun to do the works which God prepared from the beginning (Eph 2:8-10Acts 26:20)
the Ten Commandments. And then, request Baptism from the Church believing that God can do that which He promised (Mark 16:16Acts 22:16). Then one becomes a child of God having been washed and renewed by the Holy Spirit in Baptism (Titus 3:5).
having been Adopted by Him, having been joined to Christ and transferred into the Kingdom of God’s beloved Son do you think its possible that one day He could disown you, kick you out of his family and transfer you back to the kingdom of darkness. It was unthinkable for Paul.
Which Paul? Certainly not the one who wrote the New Testament Epistles:
Hebrews 10:25-31
King James Version (KJV)
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
2 Corinthians 5:10-12
King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. 12 For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart.
Every blessing Terry
And to you,
De Maria

Wednesday, July 20, 2016

Scripture says that God is our Helper

SK:Helper sounds so much like a step down for God.

Apparently, you are not familiar with the Word of God:

Psalm 54:4
Behold, God is mine helper: the Lord is with them that uphold my soul.

That is what Scripture says. Do you still deny it?


De Maria

Monday, July 18, 2016

God is our Helper!

JS:In other words, God is our HELPER. God gives to us the stuff we need to save ourselves. As one of my Catholic teachers defined it, "it's the gas that enables you to get where you need to go." So, God is not the Savior but the Enabler, the Helper.
What does Scripture say?

Genesis 4924 But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob; (from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel
25 Even by the God of thy father, who shall help thee; and by the Almighty, who shall bless thee with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lieth under, blessings of the breasts, and of the womb:
26 The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.

2 Chronicles 1411 And Asa cried unto the Lord his God, and said, Lord, it is nothing with thee to help, whether with many, or with them that have no power: help us, O Lord our God; for we rest on thee, and in thy name we go against this multitude. O Lord, thou art our God; let no man prevail against thee.

Psalm 40:17
But I am poor and needy; yet the Lord thinketh upon me: thou art my help and my deliverer; make no tarrying, O my God.

Psalm 54:4
Behold, God is mine helper: the Lord is with them that uphold my soul.

It is the Scriptures which say that God is our Helper and you deny it and ridicule the teaching of the Word of God.


De Maria

Sunday, July 17, 2016

Some Protestants might be saved

I...on the other hand...take a more delicate view here...I believe that my Protestant friends are missing out on the fullness of faith and practice that comes with being in full communion with the Catholic Church, but I don't automatically find that lack of fullness condemning for them...
I know Protestants that I am sure are saved...I know Catholics that I am sure are not...
...that's my view over the faith landscape...

You must not have read the rest of my post. I've highlighted the pertinent statements for you below:

However, those who do not accept the Sacraments of the Catholic Church must await the Judgment of God in the after life in order to be saved:
Revelation 22:13-15

King James Version (KJV)

13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

God will judge them based upon their works:
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

Can you hear me now?


De Maria

Saturday, July 16, 2016

There are Catholics who disagree with the Church

It has to do with the hypocrisy of Catholic Double standard:

The Catholic Church's standards are those of God.
Catholics claim that the RC Church is their authority and any disagreement on its teachings is just among the people.
I have no idea what you mean. Did any Catholic ever claim that any Catholic was perfect? There are obviously certain Catholics who disagree with the Church and make it plain that they do. So what? That doesn't mean that the Church is not infallible. It simply means that disobedient Catholics exist in the Church. Have you not read the Scripture?

Matthew 13:24-30

King James Version (KJV)
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

The Church is the Kingdom of Heaven upon this earth. And there are tares in the wheat until the time of the harvest.

Matthew 13:38-40

King James Version (KJV)
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Protestants claim that the Bible is their authority and any disagreement on its teachings is a swampland!
Claim is the correct and key word there. They "claim" the Bible is their authority, but they really only rely upon their own authority in exclusion of the Teachings of Scripture:
Proverbs 3:5

King James Version (KJV)
5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

2 Peter 1:19-21

King James Version (KJV)
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Do all Catholics agree with your interpretation of Catholic teachings?
I doubt it. But faithful Catholics understand that Christ speaks through the Catholic Church and therefore obey.
Does it depend on your personal interpretation on Vatican II ?
No. We depend upon the Church to understand the teachings of Jesus Christ and our application of them.

"Ever since 1968 when, as a result of erroneous interpretations and implementations of the Second Vatican Council's decisions, the centuries-old Sacrifice of the Mass became threatened with extinction"
That simply says that there were errors in the implementation of the 2nd Vatican Councils decrees. These folks are in full communion with the Church.

Subsequently, and at the direction of Francis Cardinal Spellman, then the Roman Catholic archbishop of New York, the Movement was incorporated under the laws of the State of New York as a non-profit, educational organization "to provide the Catholic laity with all information necessary for the correct understanding and implementation of the Second Vatican Council's decisions in full conformity with the traditional doctrine and practices of the Roman Catholic Church."
From the Remnant online Catholic newspaper

"Never before in the history of the Church has there been a Mass that featured women in the sanctuary, laymen giving out Holy Communion, Communion being given out in the hand, altar girls, polka and rock music, clowns, kissing and hugging, priests facing the people, etc.

Today all of these things have developed, despite the fact that the Second Vatican Council never called for such irreverent changes in the Mass.

And the Church is slowly eradicating all errors in the instructions for the celebration of the Mass. Recently, we had a correction in the language of the Mass.


De Maria

Friday, July 15, 2016

God has given Protestants a sign

Numbers said:
What's wrong with that? God has not left His children in confusion, they study His Holy Canon of 66 books and come to conclusions, in other words, they get off the fence. 

The Holy Canon is of 73 books.

Note the following, because God is giving you a spiritual sign that your canon is incomplete. 6 is the mystical number of imperfection and evil. That is why 666 is the number of the Beast. Therefore God is telling you that your 66 book Bible is imperfect and incomplete.

7 is the number of perfection and covenant.
3 is the number of eternity and represents God.

Therefore God is telling the world that the 73 book Bible contains His covenant with mankind.

As they study their discernment increases, they are then able to see the lies all around them. 

That is true. Now, let's see where the lies are found. Protestants preach that we need to divest ourselves of Tradition. What does Scripture say:
2 Thessalonians 2:15

King James Version (KJV)
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Protestants teach that we are justified by faith alone:
James 2:24

King James Version (KJV)
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Protestants teach that we are not to follow men:
1 Corinthians 11:1

King James Version (KJV)
1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Protestants teach people to rebel against the Church:
Matthew 18:17

King James Version (KJV)
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

Sounds as though it is Protestants who are uttering profane and vain babblings.

Tit 1:7For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; Tit 1:8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; Tit 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers. 


Protestants broke away from the Church which Jesus Christ established. Yet Scripture denounces all who set aside the authority of the Church and claim to have their own authority apart from the Church:
1 John 2:19

King James Version (KJV)
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.


De Maria

Scripture says that we are saved by....