Saturday, November 10, 2018

All creation suffers

MT said:So given that Romans 5:1-11 is written to believers, can we affirm as De Maria does that Romans 5:6 applies to all humanity without exception? 

Yes. And not just to all humanity but to all creation:
King James Version (KJV)
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

The answer to that question is clearly no, since then we would have to apply virtually everything else in this passage to all of humanity. 

Not if you speak English.

Obviously when he says, us, we and our, that refers to believers.
And obviously when he says, "the ungodly", that refers to everything and everyone that is not divine. Everyone that is not God.

But if we were to do this, numerous absurdities would follow.

Of course. Because you want to exaggerate everything in order to create a nonsensical straw man you can knock down. But that is not truth. You simply endeavor to justify your errors.


De Maria

Saturday, November 3, 2018

Jesus died for all

Before I respond, I think De Maria's objection makes perfect sense, given his Roman Catholic perspective. 

The Catholic perspective is not the one you described. I have corrected your straw man and provided the true Catholic perspective.

And to complicate matters for the Reformed position, I must admit at the outset that I am unaware of any passage that specifically says "God died only for the elect." That said, what follows is a response to both De Maria's take onRomans 5:6 and De Maria's request for a passage that teaches that God died for the elect. Let's first begin with Romans 5:6

Romans 5:6 in Context

The problem is your presupposition. You start from the erroneous premise that Jesus died only for the elect. Therefore, when St. Paul says, "He died for US…" you read into it that He "only" died for those of us who chose to accept His sacrifice. But Rom 5:6 is the correction to that error in case anyone were to fall into it.

St. Paul says, "He died for US…" But in Rom 5:6, he clarifies that Jesus died for the ungodly. That means Jesus died for all creation. He died for the world. He died for us because He died for all. We are not excluded when we way He died for all. We are included in that number. We are a subset of that number.

Let's look at Rom 5:1-11 in context. First, St. Paul is contrasting the Jews and the Gentiles. He is showing how the Gentiles are now grafted into the tree and are savable. Because Jews thought that God would not save Gentiles.

So, we begin where he says:

Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith 2 into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 

We, in this verse is a reference to Catholics. Although not yet called Catholics, it is Catholics who are justified by faith through the Sacraments. And that is what St. Paul is talking about. We who are justified by faith through the Sacraments.

3 Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us. 

Here he mentions suffering which is an essential part of salvation. Unless we suffer with Christ, we will not be saved with Him:

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 

Here is the correction. While we were still weak. The we refers to those who prior to Christ's sacrifice were still sinners.

Note that He didn't say, "while we were still weak, Christ died for US." Why not say it. He had used that pronoun approximately 13 times in the past 11 sentences. But that is not what he means. He means exactly what the verse says. While we were sinners, weak in the flesh, Christ died for all who are not God. Christ died for all who are not divine. Christ died for the whole world. Christ died for all.

Therefore, Christ died for us because He died for all.

7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die—8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Then, St. Paul refocuses on those who have repented and accepted God's call. But that is not a denial of the fact that Jesus died for all.

9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 

This is a reference to the Mass and the original Passover, where God passed over the Hebrews who had marked their door post with the blood of the lamb.

Christ is now our Passover and we are justified in His Blood when we drink of the Cup of Salvation. And when we drink of His Blood, we are saved from God's anger.

10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 

This is still a reference to the Eucharist.

While we were dead in our sins, Jesus died for us in order that we might be reconciled to God. Now that we are reconciled to God, Jesus saves us by His life. His Blood that He shed for us on the Cross, is in the Holy Eucharist and is our life. If we partake of it.

11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation (Romans 5:1-11, ESV).

Furthermore, still talking about those who live according to the Catholic Faith, we now rejoice because God offers us forgiveness in the Sacrament of Reconciliation.


De Maria

Sunday, October 28, 2018

Why do so many Democrats claim to be Catholic?

The Catholic Church emphatically teaches that abortion is a mortal sin worthy of automatic excommunication.  The Democrat party stands for abortion on demand and heinously supports even partial birth abortion where a child is murdered after he is born.  And yet, many Catholics still vote Democrat.  

The Catholic Church teaches that marriage is between a man and a woman.  The Democrat party supports same sex marriage.  And still, many Catholics vote Democrat.

The Catholic Church is for the dignity of life from conception to natural death.  In six states, the Democrat party has legalized physician assisted suicide.  But many Catholics still support the Democrat party.

How can any Catholic vote Democrat?  #walkaway

Saturday, October 27, 2018

The true Catholic position

MT said: 
Contrast this with the Reformed understanding that Christ made specific atonement for the elect, and that everyone for whom Christ died will be saved and that everyone else will be lost since Christ has not died in their place. 

Let's contrast the true Catholic position and not your version thereof.

Jesus Christ died for all. Some have refused to accept His offer of salvation, disobeyed Him and died in their sins. Contrast that to the Reformed misunderstanding that God elected some people to damnation without giving them the opportunity to be saved. And they believe this even though Scripture says:

Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


De Maria

Friday, October 26, 2018

Another word for teachings is tradition

Jesus Christ did not write any Scripture. He taught and passed down Tradition. The Church then wrote that Tradition in the New Testament. 

Protestants dislike the word, tradition, so they try to gloss over it or change it to something else.  For example, in the NIV translation of the Bible, they have changed the translation of the Greek "paradosis" to teaching, rather than "tradition".

2 Thessalonians 2:15
New International Version (NIV)15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter. 
2 Thessalonians 2:15
King James Version (KJV)
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Notice how the older, KJV translation, correctly translated the word to "traditions".  

Why is this important?  Because, as I said in the beginning, Christ did not write Scripture.  He passed down Teachings which He expected would be passed down in every generation.  Jesus established Traditions which He expected to be taught in every generation.  Here is what He said:

Matthew 28:18-20 King James Version (KJV)
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Thus, in condemning "traditions", they are condemning the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Saturday, October 20, 2018

The Catholic Church does not teach universalism

MT said:
Prelude to the Controversy
Over at Nick's Catholic Blog, I had mentioned that the doctrine of universal atonement (as opposed to the doctrine of particular atonement), often leads to universalism, or the doctrine that since Christ died for all, all will be saved. In deed, many, if not most, Roman Catholic liberals believe precisely this.

Speculation. I've found plenty of Protestants who believe in universalism as well.

However, the Catholic Church does not teach universalism, so this is besides the point.

They may technically affirm the existence of hell. But they don't actually believe anybody will ever go there. 

1. We believe the devils are in hell, this is directly revealed by God.
2. Whether anyone else is in hell is God's business, not ours.
3. Our business is to make sure we don't wind up in hell.

This means they are universalists in practice, even if not in theory.

Exactly the opposite. We KNOW that hell exists. We live according to that fact. It is theoretically possible that no one is in hell. That is theoretically possible, but highly unlikely considering the heinous criminals which have died without ever showing any sign of repentance. But God alone knows.

In deed, no Roman Catholic has to believe anyone is in hell, for it is theoretically possible that anyone may choose to avail him or herself of the salvation that Christ's atonement has made possible in his or her behalf.

True. But we do believe that hell exists. That the devils are there because God made hell for them. And that we had better toe the line or we might wind up there as well.

Two more points.

1. If a Catholic does not believe that hell exists, he contradicts Catholic Teaching.
2. If a Protestant does not believe that hell exists, he is free to do so under the rule permitting private interpretation of any doctrine.


De Maria

Sunday, October 14, 2018

A recent discussion about authority

De Maria, 
The problem with your statement is that ROME had no authority over Christendom. 

On the contrary, Glenn, Jesus Christ established the Catholic Church and empowered her to:

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.  19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:  20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

The Roman bishop originated as equal in authority to all other bishops (Constantinople, Jerusalem, Antioch, et al). The Roman bishop apostatized and declared himself as authority over all the Church as he brought in all the heresy still taught by Rome today.

On the contrary, Jesus Christ appointed St. Peter as the head of His Church.  It is clearly stated in Scripture.

John 21:17 King James Version (KJV)

17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

And when the Protestants rebelled against the Catholic Church, they rebelled against Christ.  And today, when they reject the Eucharist, they make themselves the enemies of God.

Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.  26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,  27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.  28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:  29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?  30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.  31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Hello De Maria,
Your argument does not hold water when Roman Catholicism is viewed from the perspective of it being a gradual historical development (and rightly so, I add). Your church has in fact contradicted the written Word of God.

That perspective is wrong.  Jesus Christ established the Catholic Church when He said:

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.  19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

While Scripture does indeed condemn acts of rebellion (1 Samuel 15:23), it is not rebellion to stand up against ungodly and unlawful governments. An unjust authority is no authority at all.

But Jesus Christ condemns any who disobey His Church:

Matthew 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Using your logic, the American Revolutionary War never should have happened. Using your logic, it would have been wrong for the apostles to speak against the Jewish Sanhedrin when it told them to stop preaching Christ in Acts 5. 

On the contrary, the King of England was not God.  While it is God who died upon the Cross to bring an end to Judaism and establish the New Testament Church.

The authority claims of the Roman Catholic Church are self-proclaimed and unbiblical.

Wrong.  The Catholic Church was established by Jesus Christ and all who rebel against her, rebel against the Lord of Heaven and earth who established her and continues to speak through her to this day:

Luke 10:16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.