Monday, May 25, 2015

We are beloved disciples of Jesus.




De Maria said...
Hi Russell,

Russell said...
Hello again De Maria,

It’ s good to hear from you.


Same here.

You said:

“It is perfectly Scriptural to ask Mary for prayer or anything we want. The principal is perfectly Scriptural although not expressly written in Scripture.”

We can both agree that it is not expressly written in Scripture, 


Correct.

but on what basis do you say that it is “perfectly scriptural”? What scriptural principle do we find that would suggest this?

Imitation of Christ. Christ was Mary's little boy. He requested everything of her.

I agree with the first two points of your syllogism (that Jesus is our example and that He is also the Son of Mary), but certainly not your conclusion (that, because of this, we can ask Mary for anything we want). It just doesn’t follow. The only thing this “proves” is that each person can successfully ask his own mom for things. 

Only if you ignore the following principles.

1. We are all beloved disciples of Jesus.

We believe that on the basis that Jesus is God. God is love. And God loves all of those who obey His Word:
John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

2. Jesus gave Mary to the beloved disciple (i.e. all of us) as mother.
John 19:27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! ....

3. And the disciple whom Jesus loves, accepted:

John 19:27....And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

4. In addition we hold that Gen 3:15 is a veiled reference to the Virgin Mary. And her Seed is both Jesus Christ and any and every person who holds the Commandments and the testimony of the Gospel.

5. Same with Rev 12:17.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

6. Mary is held as our mother in the beginning of Scripture, in the middle and in the end. Therefore, it is powerfully implied in Scripture that Mary is the mother of all who believe in God.


As far as the three points you used to bolster your argument, I agree with #1, that the saints in Heaven are alive, and with #3, that the prayer of the righteous is effective. But I have a problem with your understanding and usage of the concept of “communion with all the saints” in #2. In the chapter you mentioned (Romans 12), Paul is NOT speaking to, or about, the saints in Heaven, he is speaking about those on earth…

It doesn't matter. The principle is spiritually discerned. There are many things which the human authors did not know that the Spirit was revealing:

EXAMPLE:
1 Cor 7:12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.

The fact that this verse is in Scripture means that it is from the Holy Spirit. Every verse of Scripture is inspired by God. Yet, based upon this comment, St. Paul did not realize that this letter would be considered inspired Scripture.

In addition, the principle that all who believe in Christ are alive in heaven, applies.
John 11:26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Also the principle in which you do not believe, that they are aware of that which happens on earth. The story of Lazarus and the Rich man clearly reveals Abraham, long dead, aware of what is happening on earth.

he is telling them to present their bodies as a living sacrifice (Romans 12:1), he is telling them to renew their minds (12:2), not to think of themselves more highly than they ought to (12:3), he speaks to them of their prophetic gifts (12:6-8). But none of this applies to the saints in Heaven. 

Well, its not like that is an isolated Scripture.

Let's break it down.
1. Jesus says that all who believe in Him are alive even though they die (John 11:26).
2. Luke 16:24-31 reaveals that the Saints in heaven are aware of the events on earth.
3. 1 Tim 2:1 commands all believers to make intercessions for everyone.
4. Heb 12:21-23 says that when we are baptized, we become citizens on Mount Sion with the Saints whose spirits have been made perfect.
5. Again, the principle of SPIRITUAL DISCERNMENT applies (1 Cor 2:14).

Putting them all together, and there are more, we arrive at the conclusion that the Saints in heaven are ready, willing and able to intercede in our behalf.

And all throughout the rest of the chapter, it is very obvious that the “communion” he is dealing with is between church members here ON EARTH,

So, you are implying that "communion" with the saints ends here on earth? If I have understood you correctly, please provide the Scripture which supports that conclusion.

not any kind of communication with those who have gone on before us.

What does this say? Who are the men whose spirits have been made perfect?

Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

So, you are taking this out of its context, and once again, your conclusion does not follow. 

Wait? But don't you believe in Sola Scriptura? By what authority then do you tell me that my interpretation is illogical? You believe in a personal interpretation of Scripture, remember?

Therefore, all you can do, to be consistent in your beliefs, is say, "Oh! Is that what you believe?"

If that isn't true, then tell me why are you putting yourself above Scripture? Why do you want me to believe you and not the Word of God that I read in the Bible?

I mentioned that no one is ignoring Mary, and you said:

“When do you praise Mary? When do you pray to Mary?”

But this is a false dichotomy. You cannot say that a person only has those two options: Either, 1) ignore Mary, or 2) praise / pray to Mary.


I don't follow? How do you not ignore Mary if you don't praise her?

As I said earlier, we can “praise” Mary in the sense of acknowledging her role in obedience to God in being a humble servant and giving birth to, and raising, the Messiah.

Hm? I see. Try that with your earthly mom. Or with your wife. see what they say. Try acknowledging their existence without expressing your love.

You see, we believe in faith AND works. its not enough to work without expressions of faith. It is not enough to express our faith, without showing it in our works. That is the teaching of Scripture.

But avoiding praying to her does not equal “ignoring her.”

Yeah, it does.

You said:

“There’s a big difference between giving Mary the type of respect (hyperdulia) which the Scriptures demonstrate and the type of rejection of her which the Protestants offer.”

Again, you’re using a false dichotomy. Just because we are not praying to her, or not constantly praising her, does not mean that we are “rejecting” her.


Hm? You don't believe she is worthy of your praise or prayer, therefore you are rejecting her.

I had said that only God is prayed to in Scripture, and you mentioned as evidence against this that the angel Gabriel praises Mary, a saintly woman (Elizabeth) praises Mary, and that Mary, herself, declares that all generations will praise her.

Ok, that’s true, but you’re avoiding the point. I had said that only God is PRAYED TO… I didn’t say “praised.” You cannot find an example of someone in Scripture praying to Mary.


Praise is a form of prayer. At least for us. Perhaps this falls under the category of a difference in interpretation of the word, "pray".

I gave you several official Catholic sources to prove that Catholics indeed PRAY TO Mary and the saints, and that anyone denying this truth is playing word games. But you simply ignored the evidence

I agree that we pray to Mary and the Saints. I deny that we hold them equal to God or that we hold them up as idols, which is what you are implying.

I presented and said that it’s Protestants who play word games. But where’s the documentation that I am playing word games? Your lack of an argument is very telling.

I thought I presented a very cogent and powerful argument. Read my message again. I presented the dictionary definition of the word pray. I explained the Catholic explanation of the word pray. And I showed how you and all Protestants insist that pray means worship, but we don't hold you as authoritative. We have our own authority. The Church.

But again, since you don't hold to the authority of the Church, how do you claim to have the authority to tell us how to understand "prayer" and "worship"? By what authority do you hold yourself to be authoritative?

Therein lies one of the many inconsistencies of Sola Scriptura. Each one of you who believes in that lie holds yourself up as Pope. Sorry Russel, your opinion carries no weight here. I mean that in the most respectful way. Please do not be offended.

You mentioned looking up the definition of “pray” in a dictionary. That’s fine, but if you want the real meaning of biblical praying, we must look to the examples in the Bible, and these examples are also very telling. They are always directed to God, and Him alone.

How many examples must I provide? All you do is ignore what I say.
1. Scripture says, "Father Abraham, have mercy...."Luke 16:24
2. Moses and Elias talk to Jesus (Mark 9:4).
3. King David commands the angels to praise God (Psalm 148:2).
4. God sends an angel as intermediary between He and Mary (Luke 1:26-28).
5. The Holy Spirit uses a Saint as intermediary between He and Mary (Luke 1:41-42).
Etc. etc.

By the way, I’m glad that our discussions have generated some interest in the cyber world.

Looking forward to your response.


Thanks for the opportunity to exchange the Word of God with you.

In His Name,
Russell


We pray,

Sincerely,

De Maria

Sunday, May 24, 2015

On the contrary, it is Protestant's who have never followed the Word of God.


FH:Then I guess Catholics have no courage since they dismiss God's word in favor of following the lies of an apostate religious organization.
On the contrary, it is Protestant's who have never followed the Word of God.

Oh, that's right.....they have to submit their will and INTELLECT to the RCC....well, that 'splains it all...
Have you not read in Scripture?

Proverbs 3:5

King James Version (KJV)

Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Hebrews 13:17

King James Version (KJV)

17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.


Sincerely,

De Maria

Saturday, May 23, 2015

Shouldn't you be asking yourself whether the decree is according to Scripture?


SK:For your church's sake, I hope they do too. But you gota admit that takes a lot of gall.
Following the Word of God takes a lot of courage. Especially with Protestants always singing a dirge:
Matthew 11:16-20

King James Version (KJV)

16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,
17 And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.
18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.
19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not: 

I never knew this about churches in Germany. Protestant churches are mentioned also, but it seems the catholic church is really crying out.

http://news.yahoo.com/german-group-s...180251559.html

Here's a snippet, read the rest yourselves.

BERLIN (AP) — A Catholic reform group in Germany criticized the country's bishops Monday for declaring that believers who refuse to pay religious taxes won't be able to receive the sacrament, become godparents or work in church institutions.

Well from what I read, the protestants are not complaining. Its only the catholic bishop. Thats what the news says. I don't see you taking this stance when its something protestant in the news. By the standards of catholics, that news wpuld be true and correct and might as well be gospel truth.
Shouldn't you be asking yourself whether the decree is according to Scripture? What the complainers whine about is besides the point. The fact is that the Bishops are acting according to Christ's word:
Matthew 22:16-22

King James Version (KJV)

16 And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the person of men.
17 Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?
18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?
19 Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.
20 And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?
21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.
22 When they had heard these words, they marvelled, and left him, and went their way.

Therefore why are you pretending that the Catholic Church is doing something wrong?

Sincerely,

De Maria

Friday, May 22, 2015

God saves those who keep the law


JW:
"No one is righteous, not even one."
That verse is talking about unbelievers:
Psalm 14:1
King James Version (KJV)
14 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

There is a "civil" or "outward" righteousness, but such is not moral perfection. Scripture does NOT say that these people perfectly kept all the law from the moment of conception to the moment of death.

But that doesn't seem to be important to the Holy Spirit as it is to you:
Proverbs 24:16
King James Version (KJV)
16 For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.

If "keeping the law" saves you

That's a straw man. I keep repeating

GOD SAVES THOSE WHO KEEP THE LAW. What is so hard to understand about the words "God saves"?

The problem seems to be that you want to save yourself by faith alone and you project your feeling towards us. But we don't pretend to save ourselves nor do we pretend that works save us. We await the salvation of our Lord.

(from what?)

You tell me. You're the one attributing that false sentiment to us. Whereas, I have repeatedly told you. God saves those who by faith in Him, keep the Commandments.

Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

and ergo you need no Savior, no mercy, no forgiveness, no Sacraments, no church (cuz you're perfect)

Again, you project your ideas unto me. I accept our Saviour and all His promises unto me through His Mercy, forgiveness, Sacraments and Church. Whereas you claim to accept Him and reject all that He has promised.

- then all I can say is, heaven is empty. Well, except for you, I guess. You and Jesus.

Your guess would be wrong. Scripture is clear that we are preceded by those whom God has approved before us and that those who accept His Church and His Sacraments walk amongst those whose spirits have been made perfect on Mount Sion:
Hebrews 12:22-24
King James Version (KJV)
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Your WHOLE dismissal of Christ, of mercy, of forgiveness - your whole embrace of "I'm going to heaven cuz of ME" thing is one of the things many left Catholicism over, this "Look at ME!" along with "Christ is irrelevant."

You are mistaken. That is the Protestant ethic. Not Catholic. It is Protestants who claim salvation for themselves and eschew the Judgement of all mighty God. It is they who claim that the entire world is condemned except they. And in so doing they exalt themselves and commit the sin of presumption. Presuming that you are equal to or greater than God who is our Judge. In essence, it is self idolatry.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Thursday, May 21, 2015

OSAS by any other name is still OSAS.

  1. ROBERT February 12, 2015 at 4:21 pm

    Of course Calvinism affirms they are the same group. That would be what sets Calvinism apart from Romanism, not the notion that if the elect are saved they will persevere to the end.
    OSAS by any other name is still OSAS.
    Thanks for admitting your lie about the Catholic Doctrine of Election, also.
  2. Michael Taylor asks:

    Which version of the Vulgate to you have in mind? The one with 151 psalms or 150? The one with the books of Esdras or the one without it?

    This one:
    Trent IV

    It has thought it proper, moreover, to insert in this decree a list of the sacred books, lest a doubt might arise in the mind of someone as to which are the books received by this council.[4]

    They are the following:
    Of the Old Testament, the five books of Moses, namely, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; Josue, Judges, Ruth, the four books of Kings, two of Paralipomenon, the first and second of Esdras, the latter of which is called Nehemias, Tobias, Judith, Esther, Job, the Davidic Psalter of 150 Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, the Canticle of Canticles, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Isaias, Jeremias, with Baruch, Ezechiel, Daniel, the twelve minor Prophets, namely, Osee, Joel, Amos, Abdias, Jonas, Micheas, Nahum, Habacuc, Sophonias, Aggeus, Zacharias, Malachias; two books of Machabees, the first and second.

    Of the New Testament, the four Gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John; the Acts of the Apostles written by Luke the Evangelist; fourteen Epistles of Paul the Apostle, to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, to the Galatians, to the Ephesians, to the Philippians, to the Colossians, two to the Thessalonians, two to Timothy, to Titus, to Philemon, to the Hebrews; two of Peter the Apostle, three of John the Apostle, one of James the Apostle, one of Jude the Apostle, and the Apocalypse of John the Apostle.

    (Memory could be fuzzy here, but I’m pretty sure there was a bit of variation in the canon based on the Vulgate. But why the Vulgate in the first place? Regardless of the precise canonical history of the Vulgate, how do you know it is the norm for the canon? Is it not because Rome says so? And so why do you believe Rome?)

    Because Jesus Christ established the Catholic Church and declared her infallible.

Wednesday, May 20, 2015

There is more than one election in Catholicism.

De Maria,Thanks for admitting your lie about the Catholic Doctrine of Election, also.
Robert:That’s no lie. Election, by definition, confesses that those who are saved will persevere. You all just make up this category of people that are predestined to grace but not to glory.

ROBERT:

That’s no lie.

Yes, it is.

Election, by definition, confesses that those who are saved will persevere.

By Protestant definition. There is only one election in Protestantism.
There is more than one election in Catholicism. There is election for justification and election for glory.

You all just make up this category of people that are predestined to grace but not to glory.

That’s my good Protestant. If you don’t like it, or don’t want it, or can’t believe it, it isn’t so. Go on living in your delusions.

However, Catholic Doctrine admits multiple elections. Whether you like it or not.

Tuesday, May 19, 2015

There are many types of election

ROBERT February 12, 2015 at 8:31 pm

Except, of course, election to glory is the only election that ultimately matters in Romanism.

You don’t really understand English do you?
Do you know what “ultimately” means?
ul·ti·mate·ly
??lt?m?tl?/
adverb
finally; in the end.
Certainly, in the end, election to glory matters most. However, that does not remove the fact that election to grace also matters.

Which is why if you affirm election to glory, you must affirm that the elect will certainly be saved.

Non sequitur. The elect are also those who are elect to grace. Therefore, no, the elect will not certainly be saved unless they persevere to the end.

Which is why the idea of salvation now ensure salvation later isn’t completely incompatible with Romanism.

What? Salvation now ensures salvation later? Yes, that is completely incompatible with Catholic Teaching. Because salvation now is election to grace. Ultimate salvation which God reveals in the Judgement is election to glory and only granted to those who have the grace to persevere to the end.

No, I know current RC theology affirms election to justification only and election to glory. Problem is, such is not found in the Apostolic tradition.

If you know this to be true, then provide the Catholic Teaching.

Cue De Maria’s acontextual citation of a Protestant Bible translation as if he has the right to interpret the Bible for himself.

That is the Protestant MO, Robert. I interpret the Bible according to Catholic Teaching. I don’t need to provide a citation though. You do. You need to provide the official Catholic Teaching of absolute assurance of salvation for the elect unto grace and justification. Chop, chop.

That is the definition of omniscient God.

ROBERT February 13, 2015 at 2:12 am

Except, of course, that there is no uncertainty about who is elect unto glory except perhaps on the part of those so elected. God certainly knows who they are. And these individuals once saved, are always saved. By definition they will not finally fall away. For they are elect unto glory.

That is the definition of omniscient God. Note how the Catholic Doctrine preserves the necessity of good works and striving for election on our part. And God’s right of Judgement.
All of which can be verified in Scripture.
Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. 9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.
Contrast that with the Calvinist Doctrine which usurps God’s right of judgment and removes the necessity of cooperating with the grace of God in order to produce meritorious works.
All of which contradicts Scripture.
1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
2 Timothy 4:1
I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;