Judgement will come first to those in the House of God

 

1. 
   

   DE MARIA May 25, 2013 at 10:59 am

   RAYN May 24, 2013 at 10:40 pm
   I’ll continue to maintain what I said: for someone who isn’t familiar with the doctrine the current Pope regularly confesses publicly, then his statement could be taken to mean universalism. That said, sure, Catholics seem to get it. I don’t see any of the outbursts coming from Catholics.

   Yes, we understand the Pope. The Pope is thoroughly Catholic.

   Nevertheless, this provokes good questions about the inclusivism apparent in Roman Catholic theology, and the inability of Roman Catholic theologians to properly distinguish between general revelation (which is law, what you must do) and special revelation (gospel, what God in Christ has done on behalf of his people).

   Did you make this distinction up on your own? If not, please show me from Scripture.

   In Romans 1:18-3:20 the Apostle is driving toward his gospel presentation (which begins in Romans 3:21) by showing the necessity of it.

   We accept the necessity of the Gospel. What we are debating is the contents of the Gospel or what it truly means.

   We must keep in mind the whole time that we’re reading Romans 1:18-3:20 the conclusion of Paul’s arguement — he tells you what it is in 3:9, “we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin,” after which he quotes a plethora of Old Testament Scripture to support that conclusion.

   All that he wrote is true.

   Whatever you think Paul means in that section, if it contradicts his own clearly stated conclusion, you haven’t understood that passage.

   That’s part of the problem. You claim that St. Paul speaks clearly. But Scripture tells you different and yet all Protestants refuse to believe what Scripture says about St. Paul’s writings:
   2 Peter 3:16
   As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

   We, however, understand that St. Paul says some things which we must study in order to understand correctly.

   The purpose of his arguement is to shut the whole world up in their guilt before God so that they’ll listen when he gives the glorious “but” in Romans 3:21! “For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes the knowledge of sin,” (Romans 3:20).

   That is Catholic Teaching. But you don’t understand it correctly.

   By the term “the law”, St. Paul is speaking of the Old Covenant through which no man was ever justified. To be justified is to wash away sins. Here is what St. Paul says elsewhere:
   Hebrews 10:4
   For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

   The Old Law, the Old Covenant, did not justify. But doers of the law, will be justified, the law of the Ten Commandments:
   Romans 2:13
   King James Version (KJV)
   13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

   So Romans 1&2 shows that while the whole world knows what God requires in the law, since it is written on their conscience, and since Jews know the law even more clearly in the Scriptures, that simply shows that they are accountable for their sin — not that they’re actually attaining righteousness by whatever means.

   On the contrary, what it shows is that those who do the righteous works of God will be justified by God. Whether they are Jew or Gentile:
   Romans 2:1-13
   King James Version (KJV)
   1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. 2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. 3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
   12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

   If you want righteousness before God, Paul directs us outside of ourselves. “But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it — the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe” (Romans 3:21-22).

   Faith in Jesus Christ is not outside of ourselves. It is in our hearts.
   John 14:21
   He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

   Paul says that gentiles have the work of the law written on their hearts. Sure, we see this from the fact that nonbelievers build hospitals — glorious testimony to the fact that God has not abandoned the creation but is being patient with all until they come to repentance in Christ (Romans 2:4). But they are warned that apart from repentance they will only have to face God’s wrath. God will be just on the last day when he judges because everyone whom he condemns has had sufficient knowledge of what God requires in the law — but saving knowledge of God in Christ comes only through the good news Paul announces in Romans 3 which he no where says is inherent in creation, but rather distinguishes it from it.

   It will certainly be very difficult for non-believers to obey Christ and be saved. But you are misunderstanding the Scripture. St. Paul is saying that if you want to walk with the Saints in this life, you must obey Christ and keep the precepts of His Faith, His Church. But if you don’t, you must await the Judgment where all men will be judged. St. Peter says the same thing:
   1 Peter 4:17
   For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

   Bottomline, you guys are arguing a straw man of your own making. The Catholic Church teaches universalism in this sense. ALL men, universally, will be judged by God. The Catholic Church does not teach that all men are saved. Nor does Pope Francis.

   Sincerely,

   De Maria

Only those who obey Christ will be saved

1. DE MARIA May 25, 2013 at 10:34 am

   ROBERT May 25, 2013 at 10:16 am
   De Maria,
   Actually, I don’t feel good about myself. I am confident in my salvation not because I am faithful but because the Judge became incarnate and gave His life for me,

   He gave His life for all men. Including those who reject Him and wind up condemned.
   Hebrews 2:3
   How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

   and, believing in His resurrection I am saved.

   Only those who obey Christ will be saved:
   Hebrews 5:9
   And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

   Your personal claims of salvation amount to the sin of presumption. You have exalted yourself above your station:
   Luke 18:14 ….for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

   Before God’s bar of justice, I am not faithful.

   If you know this for a fact, then how are you saved? Only the holy will see the Lord. Not the faithless.
   Hebrews 12:14
   Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

   He doesn’t grade on a curve, y’know.

   How God grades is His business.

   Throwing out a random verse from Romans 14 that is not dealing with justification proves nothing.

   Whenever you are ready, we can go through the Scriptures which deal with justification. Let us begin with this one:
   Romans 2:13
   (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

   You should actually try and make an argument from a verse that is pertinent to the situation.

   You should try to understand Scripture according to the way Scripture prescribes:
   2 Corinthians 3:6
   Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

   Apparently, you don’t know that you are saved. At least you’re being consistent with Roman teaching.

   It is from Scripture. We leave judgment to almighty God:
   

   1 Corinthians 4:2-4
   King James Version (KJV)
   2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful. 3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. 4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

   But I tell you that you can know you are saved and that God wants you to know if you are saved. But that would mean trusting in Christ alone and not in a church that cannot save you. If you can participate in the mass daily and still end up in hell, the sacraments are doing absolutely nothing for you.

   Whether the Sacraments and the Mass are doing anything for me is between me and God. You need to attend to your own duty.
   

   Luke 17:10
   So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

   Sincerely,

   De Maria

Not faithful?

                       ROBERT May 25, 2013 at 10:16 am

1. Actually, I don’t feel good about myself. I am confident in my salvation not because I am faithful but because the Judge became incarnate and gave His life for me, and, believing in His resurrection I am saved. Before God’s bar of justice, I am not faithful. He doesn’t grade on a curve, y’know. You're not faithful? And yet you are confident in your salvation? But didn't you say that you were saved by your faith alone? If you have no faith, then that means you have no salvation. Does God save the faithless? Didn't you say that He doesn't grade on a curve?
2. Your belief system is full of contradictions.

3. Throwing out a random verse from Romans 14 that is not dealing with justification proves nothing. You should actually try and make an argument from a verse that is pertinent to the situation.

   You've yet to provide any verse at all and your words are so contradictory, I don't think you'll be able to provide any verses.  The Scriptures do not contradict themselves. 

   Apparently, you don’t know that you are saved. 

   Because God is my Judge.  Here's what Scripture says about that:

4. 1 Corinthians 4:2-4 King James Version

   2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful. 3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

5. At least you’re being consistent with Roman teaching. But I tell you that you can know you are saved and that God wants you to know if you are saved. But that would mean trusting in Christ alone and not in a church that cannot save you. If you can participate in the mass daily and still end up in hell, the sacraments are doing absolutely nothing for you.

   Where does Scripture say to trust in Christ alone?  You claim to trust Scripture, which was not written by Christ, therefore you're putting your trust in other people, not in Christ alone.  And you also trust your mom and dad, I assume.  I do.  And there are many other people whom I trust.  Here's what Scripture says about trusting others:

6. Hebrews 13:7 King James Version

   7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation. 

   Sounds like Scripture wants you to trust your leaders in the Church. 

7. 
   

Feel good religion

1. 
   

   ROBERT May 25, 2013 at 6:30 am
   ….If I’m a Muslim or Buddhist who does good and “feels” close to God, I’m going to end up in heaven anyway…..

   Nope. The Catholic Church teaches that God is our judge. Your opinion about yourself has nothing to do with whether you will wind up in heaven.

   For example:
   As a Protestant, you claim that you are saved because you consider yourself faithful. You feel good about yourself.

   The Catholic Church says that it doesn’t matter how faithful you claim to be. You are not the Judge. God is the one who decides whether you will be in heaven or not.

   In the same way, God will judge the Catholic, Muslim, Hindu and pagan of every sort, including also, the atheists:
   

   Romans 14:10
   But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

   Sincerely,

   De Maria
2.