Friday, May 31, 2013

What is being taught orally is Scripture,

Yes - All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching... What is being taught orally is Scripture,
Its the reverse. What is being presented in writing are the Traditions of Jesus Christ. Jesus did not write Scripture. Jesus taught His Word and commanded the Church to teach. The Church then wrote down Christ's teachings.

2 Peter 1:19-21

King James Version (KJV)

19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

not some extra Biblical writings that we would refer to as traditions.

That is precisely our gripe with Protestants. Anytime you want, we can do a comparison to see who teaches extra biblical traditions. Because every tradition of the Catholic Church is in Scripture implied or explicit. While every tradition of the Protestants, which disagrees with the Catholic Church, also disagrees with Scripture.

The following, the pillars of your faith, are all non-biblical traditions of men which contradict the Word of God:
Faith alone.
Scripture alone.
Grace alone.
Once Saved Always Saved.

The Church should never stop oral teaching of Scripture, but should never add to Scripture.

Agreed. If it wasn't for the Catholic Church, you wouldn't have the 66 books you have now. But you are missing 7 which Luther took out.

All things that Jesus has commanded us to observe are found in Scripture.
Agreed. But not in the Protestant catechisms. They have discarded or changed much of Christ's teachings.

I've heard people in the Roman Catholic church refer to "Tradition" as a body of undefined teachings,
No you haven't. That is the ignorant allegation of the Protestants.

apart from the Holy Scriptures,
Here is what the Church teaches:
97 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture make up a single sacred deposit of the Word of God" (DV 10) in which, as in a mirror, the pilgrim Church contemplates God, the source of all her riches.

allegedly of apostolic origin,

that are passed on perfectly from generation to generation through the Church,
Scripture is a witness:
Ephesians 3:10

King James Version (KJV)

10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

and especially through Catholic bishops.
Through the Magisterium, the Bishops and Priests united to the Pope.

You quoted 2 Thessalonians 2:15 to support this concept of "Tradition" but a closer look reveals that the apostle Paul has something different in mind. Writing to the believers in Thessalonica, among whom he had personally laboured, he says: But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle. (2 Thessalonians 2:13-15).
How is that different? It certainly doesn't teach Scripture alone. It confirms the authority of the Church represented by the Apostles and the Traditions of Christ. Because at the time of their personal presence in the flesh, 2 Thess was not yet written. Lets go back to 1 Thess:
1 Thessalonians 2:13

King James Version (KJV)

13For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God,which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

Even before 1 THESS was written, the Apostles had passed down the word of God.

First the Apostles went there and taught the Traditions of Christ.
Then St. Paul wrote an epistle to confirm what they had taught.
Note that this procedure was not always followed. Frequently they simply taught and did not follow through with Scripture.

The apostle Paul had preached the gospel to the Thessalonians,
In other words, he passed down Oral Traditions.

and they believed the truth for their salvation.
You forget the Berean episode:
Acts 17:10-12

King James Version (KJV)

10And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
12Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

Does anything strike you there as incompatible with the PROTESTANT TRADITION?

St. Paul and Silas were in the Synagogue preaching the Gospel IN THE OLD TESTAMENT.

Does that remind you of anything?

Luke 24:25-27

King James Version (KJV)

25Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

In order for the Jews to understand the Traditions of Christ, they had to be taught by the Church. Just as Christ had taught the Church originally.

Now that he was absent, Paul exhorted them to hold on to the "traditions" he had passed on to them.
Exactly as the Church does today.

These traditions, or teachings, here were simply the truths of the gospel which the apostle Paul had "handed on" to them by two means: by preaching "by word" and by writing "our epistle".
Amen! No Scripture alone there. No faith alone there. No OSAS there. Just the true gospel as the Catholic Church teaches it today. Keep the Commandments and you shall live. The Mass. The Eucharist.

There is nothing here about the perfect transmission of an undefined body of teachings through a succession of bishops.
I have no idea where you got that undefined stuff from. Here's what the great doctor of the Church said:
"I would not believe in the Gospel myself if the authority of the Catholic Church did not influence me to do so."
Against the letter of Mani, 5,6, 397 A.D.

The Lord has preserved and transmitted the apostolic message in the New Testament.
The Lord has preserved and transmitted His Word through the Church.

Therein we find an infallible record of the apostolic traditions, their message, the gospel.
That is true. An infallible message that is infallibly defined by the Catholic Church:
1 Timothy 3:15

King James Version (KJV)

15But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

We are not supposed to find the Word of God in the Holy Scriptures as well as some form of oral tradition.
Yes. We are. Scripture tells us that the Word of God is transmitted orally:
Hebrews 13:7

King James Version (KJV)

7Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

In fact the Lord Jesus warned about this very thing in Mark 7.
He warned against heretical traditions such as Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura.

Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, “Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?”

He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:

"This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men."

For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men — the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.” He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban” ’ (that is, a gift to God), then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”
Precisely. God does not teach the commandments of the Protestants.

How serious these words of our Lord; how we ought to give them our full attention! People today are bound to repeat the same mistakes of the Pharisees unless they take heed.
They have made the same mistakes and continue to make them. The Protestants are an example. But there are others. Only the Church teaches the Wisdom of God.

Again, these traditions, or teachings, here were simply the truths of the gospel which the apostle Paul had "handed on" to them by two means: by preaching "by word" and by writing "our epistle". Our situation is radically different from that of the Thessalonian Christians in the first century. They had the privilege of welcoming a living apostle among them. They heard the apostle speak to them; we cannot do the same, simply because there are no apostles today. How then can we learn the Word of God since we are living so many centuries after the apostles?
Scripture tells you:
2 Timothy 2:2

King James Version (KJV)

2And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
The Lord has preserved and transmitted the apostolic message in the New Testament.

In the Church. The Church wrote the New Testament.

We are not to add to or take away from God's Word.
No, we are not. But the Protestants have done both. They have added extra biblical traditions and taken out 7 books.
There is no oral tradition in addition to the Scriptures.
There are now as there were then and there will always be.

What translation of the Bible says that Scripture is profitable for "passing on oral tradition?"
2 Tim 3:16

Did you not know that to teach is to pass down tradition? Let me show you:
2 Thessalonians 2:15

King James Version (KJV)

15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

2 Thessalonians 2:15

New International Version (NIV)

15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings[a] we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

  1. 2 Thessalonians 2:15 Or traditions

All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness.

In other words, all Scripture is profitable for passing down Traditions.

He commanded that His words (recorded in Scripture) be taught.
Show me from Scripture.

I don't hear anyone saying to stop teaching Scripture when the Bible is written. We are not to add to what Scripture says through additional teachings not found in Scripture.
Then you need to discard the five alones and the other Protestant Teachings which disagree with Catholic Teaching. NONE of them are in the Bible.


De Maria

Shall we rephrase to "is building"?

De Maria said:
Scripture tells us that there is an infallible Church out there which Jesus built.
Lutero responded:
Shall we rephrase to "is building"?

De Maria
As the Scripture says:
Ephesians 2:20

King James Version (KJV)

20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Shall we understand this to be a metaphor?

DM.......interesting how you pervert that. You give lip service to Jesus being the chief corner stone, yet in practice you deny his authority in the churches. You are a deceiver .

De Maria
That makes no sense. It is because I believe Jesus that I follow the Church which He established. What is your excuse for rejecting the Church which Jesus built?

Luke 10:15-17
King James Version (KJV)15And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.16He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.17And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
De Maria