Saved by grace in the Sacraments - 6

 

De Maria

1 day ago

 BL-Well they may be true to you but not necessarily true to scripture. DM-On the contrary, they are absolutely true to Scripture since Scripture is based upon the Teachings of the Catholic Church. Jesus did not write any Scripture. He commanded the Church to teach and the New Testament is the result of the Teaching of the Church. BL-Purgatory and indulgences are both taught as truth but the only way to provide biblical verses to prove them is by taking verses out of context. DM-Let's see. Thanks for combining Purgatory and indulgences since they are basically the same Teaching. Both are based on the fact that there is a Heavenly Treasury where our good works are stored and God uses them to cleanse our souls of sin. There are many Scriptures to support both Teachings, but here is one, show me where it is out of context: Luke 12:33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth. Notice that Jesus is Teaching us to buy our way into heaven. With our alms we buy bags of heavenly treasure. Question, what is the heavenly treasure for? Answer, to release us from Purgatory. What is another name for the heavenly treasure? Indulgences. BL- justification is God's righteous act of removing the condemnation, guilt, and penalty of sin, by grace, while, at the same time, declaring the unrighteous to be righteous, through faith in Christ's atoning sacrifice. DM-Another word for God's righteous act which you describe above is "forgiveness". What must one DO in order to receive this forgiveness? Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. Do you deny that repentance is necessary? BL-God's Word says that we are saved by grace through faith in Christ Jesus and not by our own efforts or works (Ephesians 2:8-9) DM-That describes that which happens in the Sacraments. It is in the Sacraments that we are saved by grace when we proclaim our faith in Jesus Christ. It is not our work, but the work of God. However, only those who have done good works can present themselves for the Sacraments. Notice Titus 3:5 says, "not by the righteous works are we saved, but by His mercy in the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit. This is the operation of God in which we must have faith. Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. BL-In his letter to the Galatians, Paul argues for “faith in Jesus Christ” as the sole avenue to “justification.” (Galatians 2: 16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.. DM-That doesn't mean what you think it means. Notice what it says about the Law of Moses, elsewhere in Scripture: Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses The Law of Moses does not produce perfect justification. It does not remove Original Sin. But expressing our faith in Jesus by accepting the operation of God, the regeneration and renewal of God the Holy Spirit, in Baptism, produces the perfect justification of the New Testament. Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. BL-He expresses concern that the church in Galatia has returned to observance of the Mosaic Law and rituals and urges its members to despair of achieving justification through “human effort” and to instead solely embrace “faith expressing itself through love” . For Paul, “faith in Jesus Christ,” rather than adherence to Mosaic law, is the only way to be “justified.” DM-St. Paul is right. Notice that faith expressing itself in love, or better yet, Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. Faith which worketh by love is also a human effort. Let's see what else St. Paul says in Galatians: Galatians 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. BL-If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because that he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema. That is from the council of Trent and you might notice nowhere in the entire new testament do you find curses for anyone who does not believe exactly as you are told. DM-On the contrary, look at Gal 2:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. There are a few others, but you may not recognize them as curses. For example, Matthew 18:17 King James Version 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. To treat someone as a heathen and a publican is to cast them out of the Church and therefore to withhold from them the Sacraments of grace without which one can not be saved. BL- So I hold to scripture that tells me (Galatians 2:16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. DM-That is the Teaching of the Catholic Church. Faith in Jesus Christ is taught only in the Catholic Church. BL-And I do not hold to any church council that employs curses for obedience! DM-Then you deny the Teaching of Scripture. BL-2 Thess 2:15 A verse out of context. What is therefore there for? It tells you that the belief in the resurrection discussed in the preceding chapter is what Paul is referencing here , not that all traditions must be accepted. DM-So all you need to believe is the resurrection? Is that what you mean? Whereas, it is obvious that he is making reference to all of the Doctrines which are Taught by the Church because they come directly from Jesus Christ. Now, I also mentioned James 2:24 which says: James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. By works a man is justified, not by faith alone BL-Any doctrine not found in contextual scripture should not be taught by any church regardless of whether it be Catholic or denominational. It is the Church which teaches the Word of God, just as commanded by Christ and there are many members in the church doing just that spreading the Gospel . DM-The doctrines of faith alone and Scripture alone are not taught in contextual Scripture. Any doctrine which contradicts the Catholic Church will not be found in contextual scripture.

The Operation of God through Baptism - 2

 ETC- @De Maria

It is total waste of time discussing this with you. DM-Sorry you feel that way. ETK-all you have written in response is catholic tradition, twisting the scripture to what you believe it means. DM-I think I've proven that the Scriptures substantiate the Teachings of Jesus Christ which are passed down through Catholic Tradition. Remember, Jesus didn't write the New Testament. The Catholic Church did so. And she did so, based upon the Teachings of Jesus Christ. These Teachings are otherwise known as, Catholic Tradition. ETK-You have so many holes in ur beliefs it’s honestly mind boggling. DM-If you had identified even one hole in my beliefs, you would have done your best to reveal it. But your response indicates that you were frustrated because you could find no holes in my argument and thus have no recourse but to ease out without admitting defeat. ETK-Just do me one favour, just one! DM-If its reasonable and doesn't cost any money. wink. ETK-Read the book of Ephesians. Just read it for what it says. no catholic bias. Just pray and say god reveal what the scriptures means. DM-And you, do me the same favor. Read the book of Ephesians or any book of the Bible which you choose, without any Protestant presuppositions. May God open your eyes to the Truth which Jesus Christ has passed down through His Church. God bless you.

Salvation by grace in the Sacraments - 5

 

De Maria

1 day ago

 BL- The catholic church goes to the scriptures for most of their doctrines , goes beyond scripture to find the other doctrines . They wrote the CCC so you would know what the church believes as after all you are not allowed to question the church. The CCC has errors within it's pages but you are not allowed to question those errors. DM-Bob, Jesus Christ did not say that all doctrines are to be found in Scripture. In fact, even you keep doctrines that can't be found in Scripture. In fact, Jesus Christ did not command that any Scripture be written. The Catholic Church wrote the New Testament in order to supplement Her Teaching of Jesus Christ's commands. There are no errors in Catholic Teaching because Christ Teaches through His Church. And no, no one is allowed to question the Church. Listen to Scripture: 2 Thessalonians 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. And again: Galatians 1:8 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. BL-When I look for God I find Jesus Christ ,not an organization with claims. DM-Everyone will find Christ in the end, but how will He respond to you? Matt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. We obey Christ and follow Him through His Church, which He established to lead us to salvation. BL-The church is the body of believers in the Lord Jesus Christ ,not a small group making decisions worldwide. Eph 2:20-22 sums up the church I know. DM-Do you mean that you discard all the other Scriptures about the Church. Let's see, you deny that the Church is an organization. What does Scripture say: 1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. The Catholic Church fits all the verses of Scripture. But you pick some and deny others. Who put you above Scripture? BL- My comments are made for you to question a group that claims authority when it does not have it , has doctrines and traditions that do not line up with scripture and to get you to look at what you believe and prove to yourself that what you have been taught is correct. DM-Well, Bob. Let's line up your teachings and the Catholic Church's with Scripture and see which one's line up the best. It is the Catholic Church which wrote the New Testament and selected the Old Testament books which should be included in the Bible you carry today. Ephesians 3:10 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

The Operation of God through Baptism - 1

 

ETC-Wrong! Ephesians 1:13 KJV In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, baptism is a public declaration of obedience to what u have believed. DM-True. But what is it that you believe? You deny the efficacy of the operation of God through Baptism. We believe it. Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. For example, Scripture says: Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. The Catholic Church Teaches that our sins are washed away in Baptism, just as Scripture says. But you deny this. Am I right? So, what do you believe? You claim to believe in Christ but the plain word says that Baptism saves, but you deny it: 1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us .... ETK-The body and blood is done in REMEMBRANCE for what Christ has done for you. DM-So it is. And again, you claim its only an unnecessary symbol. Thereby denying the power of Jesus Christ. Do you believe that the Old Testament is greater than the New? I don't. Scripture says: Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. Let's compare the Bread of Life to the manna of heaven. Jesus said: John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. Thus, over and again He reiterates that the Eucharist is His flesh. His Body. John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Jesus says His bread is His Flesh. You deny it. Jesus says His bread saves. You deny it. Tell me, if the Eucharist is just a symbol, how is it better than the manna? How is it a better promise, since the bread we use for the Eucharist is made by growing wheat on a farm and mixing with water and baking. Yet, the manna was sent down from heaven? ETK-Salvation is a ONE time transaction. DM-and you therefore cheapen salvation, as though your mere words would be enough to claim for yourself something which Saints endured agony upon agony to receive. Read the Scripture. Haven't you seen that: Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake; Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. ETK-Read Ephesians and various other church age books and you will CLEARLY see you are believing a lie DM-I believe I have clearly shown that you don't understand the power of the Gospel. Read the entire Bible and see how Jesus Christ is the source and summit of our faith.

Salvation by grace in the Sacraments - 4

 

De Maria

2 days ago

 BL,

On the contrary, all the Doctrines of the Catholic Church are absolutely true. It is doctrines of the anti-Catholics which are false and can't be found in Scripture. For example, you teach justification by faith alone. Where is that in Scripture? It isn't, Scripture says:

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

You also teach belief in Scripture alone. But Scripture says: 2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. Any doctrine which contradicts the Doctrines of the Catholic Church, also contradicts the Word of God, because it is the Catholic Church which Teaches the Word of God, just as commanded by Christ. See Matt 28:19-20

Can a 2 month old believe? - 3

 

ETC- You said: Saved by grace through faith.

DM-That is a description of that which occurs in the Sacraments. In the Sacraments, we are saved when we proclaim our faith in Christ and God pours His grace into us in the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit.

Salvation by grace in the Sacraments - 3

 

De Maria

2 days ago

JBG,

BEAUTIFUL! I'd like to add that this is why Catholics are Abraham's children. When we attend the Sacraments, it is because we believe God. God looks into our hearts and counts it to us as righteousness. Therefore, He pours out His grace into our hearts and washes us of our sins. And we are made chldren of God.

Can a 2 month old believe? -2

DM- Answer the questions which I asked. Who's faith did Jesus take into account when He brought the maiden back to life? The maid had died, does a dead body have faith? Therefore, Jesus revived her because of the faith of her parents. 

Luke 8:50-55How about the Canaanite woman's daughter? Who's faith did Jesus take into account, the daughter's or the mother's? Here's what Jesus said:

Matt 15:Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Notice that He didn't say, "your daughter's faith is great." But He cured the daughter because of the faith of her mother. In the same way, Jesus brings our children into spiritual life, based upon the faith of the parents.

Saved by grace in the Sacraments - 2

 

De Maria

2 days ago

 BL,

Certainly God does the saving. But He only saves those who do good works. Its very simple. You said it yourself.

Repenting is a good work. Following Christ is a good work. Notice what Christ said to the Rich Young Man. In order to be saved, you must keep all the Commandments, and then sell all you have and then come and follow Me. Matt 19:21. Nothing about Christ's righteousness being imputed to anyone by faith alone.

Can a 2 month old believe? -1

 

ETC-😂😂 it (baptism) requires faith you heretic. Can a 2 month old believe ??? wow

 DM-Well, let's peruse some Scripture. Jesus brought this child back to life by whose faith, the child's? Or the parent's? Luke 8:50 But when Jesus heard it, he answered him, saying, Fear not: believe only, and she shall be made whole.....54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise. 55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat. How about this young lady, by whose faith was she saved, hers or her mother's? Matthew 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour. Understand that when we baptize our children, it is because of our faith in the operation of God that our children's soul's brought from spiritual death into life with Christ. Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.