Christian initiation began when Jesus started teaching His disciples

De Maria October 24, 2012 at 10:48 AM

Your comment is awaiting moderation.

Hi alan almeida

You said,
Hi De Maria,
Thanks very much for your response. I see at least you have the acumen of responding. Which is good indeed.

Thank you.

In taking verses out of context, I stated John 3:5 because that’s one of the footnotes at the bottom of the CCC,

Correct.

the Catholic Church relies for scriptural support in respect to baptism. John’s baptism of repentance is found in Mark 1:4, Luke 3:3, Acts 13:24, and more specifically Acts 19:4.

Correct.

So i am simply pointing that John 3:5 is out of context because you cannot lead a person to become a Christian because John’s Baptism of Repentance was during the period covering the Gospels.

That would be a misunderstanding of John 3:5, Jesus is describing that which occurs in His Baptism:

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

St. John’s Baptism did not bring the gift of the Holy Spirit. The Baptism in the name of Jesus, does.

Why?? Simply because during the period covering the Gospels, the Lord had not risen and glorified as yet.

That is true. But Jesus was not explaining St. John’s Baptism, but His own.

Therefore the Holy Ghost was promised only after his Ascension.

Also true.

Christian initiation actually starts in the the Book of Acts and not the Gospels.

That is a mistake. Christian initiation began when Jesus started teaching His disciples. In fact, we can also say that Christian initiation began when St. John began preparing the way for Christ.

That is why St.Paul stated it in Acts 19:4.

Acts 19:4
King James Version (KJV)
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

He mentions that St. John was preparing people to believe in Christ. Which can be understood as a type of Christian initiation. Unless you have a specific and personal understanding of the term “Christian initiation”. For Catholics, it means an introduction to the doctrines and the faith of Jesus Christ.

In fact there has always been a four-fold pattern Jesus and his Apostles always consistently preached a pattern in the entire New Testament. i.e REPENT for you sins, BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus, Be BAPTIZED, and RECEIVE the Holy Ghost.

That is the same pattern which the Catholic Church preaches today.

This is the correct pattern we can see on location how the Apostles led inquirers to the Christian faith (Acts 2:38, Acts 2:41). In fact Jesus and John the Baptist always pointed to that four-fold pattern but scattered throughout the Gospels, Acts and the Epistles. But in the Book of Hebrews Chapter 6 they surprisingly appear in that order.

Why surprisingly? It is the pattern which has always been taught. It is Protestants who have deviated from that pattern with their so-called “altar calls” and denials of Baptism as the culmination of Christian initiation.

OK so you talk about the RCIA. Does this means those baptized as babies have also have to compulsory undergo RCIA?

Infants follow a different pattern. Throughout the New Testament, we see that Jesus saves children because of the faith of their parents. Example:

Matthew 15:28
Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Jesus saves infants because of the faith of their parents.

Does the RCIA follow the Biblical pattern I’ve covered above?

Yes.

Also please note that during John’s baptism in Gospel required one to first become a disciple of Christ and then be baptized, by first showing “fruit meets for repentance” – Matthew 3:7-9. Does the RCIA cover this?

Yes.

Thanks and God Bless you,

Alan Almeida

May God bless you as well,

Sincerely,

De Maria

De Maria October 24, 2012 at 10:56 AM

Your comment is awaiting moderation.

Hi alan,

You said:
Hi De Maria,

A few more things to add … :)

No problem.

The Gospels are too early to rely on for a study on Christian initiation – the reasons i’ve already outlined in my earlier post above.

I hope I’ve disproven that idea in my previous message. But it is also illogical for another reason. Christianity relies upon the knowledge of the person of Jesus Christ. And that knowledge exists mainly in the Gospels.

We cannot also introduce a person to the Christian faith relying on the Epistles and the Book of Revelation either, because they were exhortations to those who were already Christians. So you can now see the Catholic teaching has lost its moorings. :)

All I can see is that those statements of yours make no sense. They are simply opinions of yours which are disproven by the fact that throughout history, the Church has used all those writings to teach the doctrines of Jesus Christ to all who seek righteousness and eternal life.

God Bless you,

And you.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Apologetics at work

De Maria December 20, 2012 at 7:49 PM

Its amazing how much attention a conversation can get. I remember having an indepth discussion with a good friend of mine, ex-Catholic. We always go over the same stuff and after many years, he’s still not Catholic. But, on that day, there was someone paying close attention.

When my friend and I got up to leave, the listener ran up to us as we were exiting the door. He addressed me. His fist comment was a warning about the snares of the Catholic Church and how the Church had fallen into paganism in the time of Constantine. I said to him, “I believe the promise of Jesus Christ, that the Church will never fall to the gates of Hell (Matt 16:18). Therefore, I don’t believe that ever happened.

Then he said, “you know the Catholic Church used to burn bibles.” And I said, “They only burnt bibles that were not translated correctly.”

Then he said, “they used to bind the bible to keep it from the people.” And I said, “On the contrary. Do you remember when the phone company used to tie the phone book in phone booths? Was that to keep it from the people or to keep individuals from taking it so that it could be available for more people?”

Around that time, the listener’s demeanor changed completely. His shoulders relaxed and he looked downward at my feet. Then he said, “You need to write a book. Why doesn’t anybody tell us these things?” And I said, “There are many books that have been written. That’s how I learned.” The internet was already popular back then and I gave him a few references to look up.

Just the other day, about two days ago, my friend (the same one) and I were discussing religion at work. We were sitting on a stone slab and another guy came and sat down nearby. I don’t know if my friend noticed, but I did. The other guy was sidling up closer and closer. So, I raised my voice another decibel so he could hear my side of the discussion at least.

Keep your antennas up!

Sincerely,

De Maria

For the prospective apologist

De Maria April 11, 2013 at 7:42 AM

Awesome, Steve!

For the prospective apologist, I’d like to mention one thing. Maybe two. Well, a bunch of things. As I’m writing this, I’m getting a bunch of ideas. Anyway…

1. The importance of prayer. Catholics are famous for making the sign of the Cross before we endeavor to do anything serious or dangerous. That little prayer is the least we should do before we begin to fight against the dominions and powers with whom we begin to wage war when we begin to practice apologetics.

2. We all have different gifts. For example, myself. You’ll find my apologetics all over the internet. Why? Because, before I respond to anyone, I need to consider their argument, break it down into its smallest parts, look up the Catholic Doctrine and Scriptures which are relevant, etc. etc.

Street Evangelists don’t have that luxury. They have to be quick on the draw, humorous, thick skinned, calm, and over all skilled at verbal repartee. All gifts which are absent from my personality. Therefore, I stick to written, deliberate responses.

3. Make friends. Its easier to talk to friends. As I said above, I’m not good at street evangelization. I have about 20 years of experience at written apologetics and that has made it easier for me to talk to say, Jehova Witnesses and Mormons who come to my door.

But friends are a different matter. I have many Protestant friends. And after they get over the shock of realizing that there are actually Catholic explanations for the Scriptures, we have many excellent discussions.

4. Plant a seed. I learned long ago that my eloquence has nothing to do with whether a person will be converted or not. In twenty years, I know of one couple that emailed me and said they were going to investigate the Catholic Church based upon my responses. I never heard anything from them again.

So, don’t set out to convert anyone. Leave that to God. Your job is to give people reasons for your hope. Tell them why you believe what you believe.

4. How I talk to strangers. I do talk to stingers, occasionally. When they come to my door. The first few times that I tried that, it ended miserably bad. Angry arguments and yelling.

So, I did what I’m best at. I wrote out a plan. I’ve got it sort of memorized now, so I don’t need to refer to it, anymore.

When I was younger, I played sports and my coaches had a very important lesson for apologetics. Stick to your game plan. It doesn’t matter what question they bring or what they say, I always turn their attention to Matt 16:18-19. Let’s say for instance, that a JW or Mormon asks, “Sir, have you received one of our pamphlets?” I’ll say, “No. But there’s a reason for that. Do you have your Bible? (They always do.) Please turn to Matt 16:18-19. You see, Jesus Christ did not write any Scripture. He established a Church with authority and He promised that this Church would never succumb to the gates of hell. I searched everywhere and the only Church I found that has been around since the time of Christ is the Catholic Church.”

Then they might bring some objection about the time of Constantine or the great apostasy or something. But I’ll dismiss it by saying, “I believe the promise of Jesus Christ, that His Church will last forever.”

Anyway, I’ve added more to it in the many years since I started doing that. Normally, they’ll read a Scripture and I’ll listen to it. Then, when I’m ready to end the discussion, I’ll turn their attention to Gal 1:8. And I’ll explain why I can’t listen to their strange gospel which was not taught by the Apostles.

I’ll do my best to end on a polite note and thank them for their visit. And I always tell them that I admire their courage for coming out to evangelize their faith.

I’ve had no more shouting arguments with anyone.

Sincerely,

De Maria

It begins with God's free gift of grace

De Maria October 22, 2012 at 6:46 PM

Hi alan almeida,

You said:
Yes I can elaborate, But first let me see what you understand about baptism as taught in the Catechism and its relation to the baptism in the New Testament.

Mark 16:16
King James Version (KJV)
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Is baptism, the only Christian Initiation requirement?

It begins with God’s free gift of grace. That gift is faith. Which if exercised by the individual, results in his turning to and seeking God.

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

After which the seeker begins to study the faith of Christ in order to be approved:
2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Then he learns to do God’s will and keep the Commandments:
John 14:21
King James Version (KJV)
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Having learned God’s will, he asks the Church for Baptism and has his sins washed away calling on the name of the Lord.

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Afterwards, he continues to learn about his faith and adds to his faith knowledge and virtue:
2 Peter 1:4-10
King James Version (KJV)
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Is that what you were asking?

Sincerely,

De Maria

Neither faith nor works, justify. That is the Catholic Teaching.

Erick Ybarra October 7, 2012 at 10:44 AM
Yes, Im sorry.

That was a quote from St. John Chrysostom on justification. It seems from St. John Chrysostom that we are justified by faith alone. For he believes that Abraham was justified by faith, apart from any works that Abraham had. In other words, he recognized that Abraham had many works at the time, but that they had no justifying power in God’s sight.

That is the Catholic Teaching Erick. Have you ever heard of the Council of Trent? It is the infallible Catholic Teaching of the Justification of Adults:

CHAPTER VIII
HOW THE GRATUITOUS JUSTIFICATION OF THE SINNER BY FAITH IS TO BE UNDERSTOOD

But when the Apostle says that man is justified by faith and freely,[44] these words are to be understood in that sense in which the uninterrupted unanimity of the Catholic Church has held and expressed them, namely, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God[45] and to come to the fellowship of His sons; and we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously,

because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification.

For, if by grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the Apostle says, grace is no more grace.[46]

At the same time, unless you do the good works which God wills for all mankind, God will not justify you.

Sincerely,

De Maria

It is the Catholic Church which has justification right.

De Maria October 21, 2012 at 10:58 PM

Hi Erick Ybarra,

You said,
Hello everyone,

Hi,

I am new to this site, so I just want to quickly introduce myself. I was raised Catholic, became a protestant evangelical as an adult, was trained in theology from the camps of the modern reformed baptists such as D.A. Carson, Douglas Moo, R.C. Sproul, John Macarthur, etc,etc.

I am very eager now, having learned much about history, to join the Catholic Church. However, there are many road blocks. I’ve read many books by Catholic apoologists and have found many arguments unconvincing. Obviously the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist is true. There is no contest to that.

Good for you! It is good that you have not checked your brain at the door of Protestant heresy and are considering the teachings of the Catholic Church. I hope I can be of service in providing answers to your questions.

However, with respect to the doctrine of justification, I am afraid that your friend there had it right. 
No, he is wrong. We are not justified by faith alone.
1. Faith alone DIRECTLY contradicts Scripture:
James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

2. Scripture EXPLICITLY teaches that we are justified by faith and works:
Romans 2:13
King James Version (KJV)
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

In that verse, faith is assumed, since the fruit of faith is works.
James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

3. Protestants misunderstand the Sacramental teachings of St. Paul and attribute to them the idea of faith “alone”. But St. Paul is simply stating the Catholic Truth that no one is justified by works. For a more complete unpacking of these explanations, please see these articles.
Manner of Speaking

Justification by faith and the Sacraments

However, I think he is wrong to downplay the necessity of works in the Christian life. Every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Agreed.

That being said, if you read through St. John Chrysostom on Romans, you will no doubt see that he believed in justification by faith alone because of God’s mercy and righteousness which comes to the sinner because of the death and resurrection of jesus Christ. Consider the following quote on Romans 4:1-2

Nope. Justification by faith “alone” means one thing to Protestants and another to ancient Christians.

Protestants deny the validity of the Ten Commandments. Whereas the ancient Christians all understood that the Ten Commandments are the foundation of the Christian faith.

A man who does not keep the Ten Commandments can not be justified. Only those who keep the Ten Commandments are justified without works, in the Sacraments of Jesus Christ.

A man who does not keep the Ten Commandments can not be saved. Only those who keep the Ten Commandments are saved by God on the day of Judgement.

What shall we then say that Abraham, our father as pertaining to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he has whereof to glory; but not before God.

Here he quotes Scripture. This is a Sacramental teaching of St. Paul. We don’t save ourselves by our works. It certainly doesn’t mean that Abraham didn’t work. St. James proves that and Scripture doesn’t contradict itself.

He had said (5 manuscripts ?????), that the world had become guilty before God, and that all had sinned, and that boasting was excluded and that it was impossible to be saved otherwise than by faith.

Because to an ancient Christian, meaning to say, to an ancient Catholic, because we believe the same thing today that they did back then, faith implies works. Scripture is clear:
James 2:14
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

He is now intent upon showing that this salvation, so far from being matter of shame, was even the cause of a bright glory, and a greater than that through works. For since the being saved, yet with shame, had somewhat of dejection in it, he next takes away this suspicion too. And indeed he has hinted at the same already, by calling it not barely salvation, but righteousness. Therein (he says) is the righteousness of God revealed. Romans 1:17 For he that is saved as a righteous man has a confidence accompanying his salvation.

That right there is the key to understanding this teaching. How is righteousness achieved? Is it achieved by “claiming to be faithful”? Or by keeping the Commandments?

Now, you’re going to say, “there were no commandments when Abraham lived.” But Scripture would prove you wrong:
Genesis 26:5
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

And he calls it not righteousness only, but also the setting forth of the righteousness of God. But God is set forth in things which are glorious and shining, and great. However, he nevertheless draws support for this from what he is at present upon, and carries his discourse forward by the method of question. And this he is always in the habit of doing both for clearness sake, and for the sake of confidence in what is said. Above, for instance, he did it, where he says, What advantage then has the Jew? Romans 3:1 and, What then have we more than they? Romans 3:9 and again, where then is boasting? It is excluded Romans 3:27: and here, what then shall we say that Abraham our father? etc. Now since the Jews kept turning over and over the fact, that the Patriarch, and friend of God, was the first to receive circumcision, he wishes to show, that it was by faith that he too was justified. And this was quite a vantage ground to insist upon (????????? ????? ??????).

In other words, the Jews thought that Abraham was justified by circumcision. But St. Paul proves that Abraham is justified by his faith. St. John knows, as does the Church and all Catholics, that this faith was proven in works. Read Heb 11 and read Gen 12-22. They show that Abraham obeyed God’s voice over and over again. Abraham proved his faith and in Gen 22, God fulfilled the promise spoken in Gen 15:6:

Confused? Please read this:
James 2:21-23
King James Version (KJV)
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

For for a person who had no works, to be justified by faith, was nothing unlikely.

There are so many negatives here that the sense is confusing. I think he is saying that it is not possible that a man without any works will be justified by faith.

But for a person richly adorned with good deeds, not to be made just from hence, but from faith, this is the thing to cause wonder, and to set the power of faith in a strong light.

But here, he is expressing the Catholic teaching and wondering about it. The man who keeps the Commandments is not justified thereby. He is justified by the faith he has exercised in so doing. It is because of his faith that he keeps the Commandments:
Romans 4:18-20
King James Version (KJV)
18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah’s womb:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

Not being weak in faith, he joined to his wife and produced his son. Even though his body was almost dead and Sarah had never conceived in almost 100 years.

And this is why he passes by all the others, and leads his discourse back to this man. And he calls him father, as pertaining to the flesh, to throw them out of the genuine relationship (?????????? ???????) to him, and to pave the Gentiles’ way to kinsmanship with him.

As I understand it, Abraham is the father of the Jews according to the flesh because the Jews are derived from him in descendance.

But all who come to Christ are descended of Abraham according to faith and are therefore Spiritual children of Abraham.

And then he says, For if Abraham were justified by works, he has whereof to glory: but not before God. After saying that God justified the circumcision by faith and the uncircumcision through faith, and making the same sufficiently sure in what he said before, he now proves it by Abraham more clearly than he promised, and pitches the battle for faith against works, and makes this ……”

Notice how St. John recognizes that Abraham was adorned with many good works at the time of his justification,

Correct. Ask yourself, would God have considered Abraham a just man if Abraham had said in Gen 12, “Oh, God, I believe you, but I’d rather stay in Ur with my Dad.” What do you think would have happened in that event? Faith is proven by works. Faith is proven by obedience. That is why Abraham was justified in Gen 22 not in Gen 15:6. Here is what St. Paul also says:
Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: 19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

Abraham was tried and proven just in Gen 18. Gen 15:6 is only a narrative comment anticipating the justification which would Moses, the author, full well knew was coming in the future.

and yet St. John recognizes that they had no justifying power, but only faith.

Actually, faith doesn’t either. The faithful, who have proven their faith in works of love, are JUSTIFIED BY GOD. God justifies. We don’t justify ourselves by either our faith or our works. God justifies the faithful man who keeps His Commandments.

This right here is very early testimony and source of communion of the protestant doctrine of justification.

1. You’ve only picked one Ancient Catholic father.
2. You’ve misunderstood his message.
3. If you read the other Catholic fathers on the same subject, you’ll see where you are making your error.

This is one that Catholics just have not gotten right.

The Catholic Church has it perfectly correct. It is Protestants who continue to misunderstand because they impose upon the word of God their traditions of men.

Sincerely,

De Maria

But the Catholic Church teaches the fullness of truth.

De Maria October 21, 2012 at 9:58 PM

Hi alan almeida,
You said:

Doesn’t the Roman Catholic church takes verses out of context

No.

and teaches that its Baptism that saves when its not the whole truth?

It does not seem intentional, but that is a loaded question. It insinuates that a partial truth is somehow wrong. But it isn’t A partial truth is wrong if mixed with a lie. But a partial truth which simply leaves out other details is not a lie. For instance, a person can say that he lives in Texas and although that is only part of the story, there is no sin. The fact that he only lives their one half of the year, is another detail which does not make the first detail false.

It is true that Baptism saves. It is also true that anyone who is baptized and then falls away from the faith and from the grace of God, that person may lose his salvation:
1 Timothy 1:19
Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:

2 Peter 2:22
But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Verses taken our of context become pretext and prime candidates for breeding heresies.

I agree with you. But the Catholic Church teaches the fullness of truth. It is Protestants which teach heresies.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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