Name the Protestants present at those councils.

Cathy:

What council did the Protestent sects hold to declare the books of their Bible?
Or did they simply rely on the Tradition of the Jews and the Tradition of the Catholics?

Lutero: 

The EXACT same council Polycarp and Irerenaeus used to determine what was scripture.

Name the Protestants present at those councils.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Faith says we can trust in Gods forgiveness.

Lutero:

This is not true. Faith is opposed often to reason.

No. It isn't. The presupposition here is that we are talking about faith in God. 

First of all, faith is superior to "human" reason because it is relies upon the Wisdom of God.
Second, to say that "by faith we believe things we do not understand" does not mean that faith is opposed to reason. It means that unaided human reason can not 
attain the heights of Wisdom wherein God resides.
Third, if faith in God were ever opposed to reason, then faith would be a mistake. And faith is not a mistake but a virtue and a grace of God.

Reason tells us we are punished for our sins.

Reason is correct. We are punished for our sins, aren't we?
Leviticus 26:18

King James Version (KJV)
¹⁸ And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.


Faith says we can trust in Gods forgiveness.

So does reason. The reason I have faith in God is because I trust in God's goodness. That's reason and faith, hand in hand.

Reason says there is no value to human life.

That's madness inspired by Satan. We all hold our own lives valuable at the very least. And I know I'm human.

Faith says there is.

So does reason.

Reason says we must never give up all we have as Jesus asked.

That's not reason. That's greed.

Faith says otherwise.

Once you come to faith in God, you must discard the old man and his old reasons and adopt the Reason or Wisdom of the New Man, Jesus Christ in whom we are new born. And reason comes perfectly in line with faith. If we want to be united with Christ in the end, we must not hold on to material goods as though they were our salvation:
Philippians 3:8

King James Version (KJV)
⁸ Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

There are many differences between reason and faith. Faith is a passion that does not depend on human reason.

Faith is not a passion. It is a grace and a virtue. It is an act of God and a work of man. It is with this work of God which we must cooperate in obedience of Christ.

The bread is no longer mere bread, it becomes the spritual Christ to us as we partake.

The Bread is no longer bread at all. It is the mere resemblance of bread. It is now the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ.

It is determined by faith and not by reason.

That is true. But it is not opposed to reason. Once we accept the fact that Jesus is God and that He created the world with but a word, it becomes as natural to accept this doctrine as it does to accept that God is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent. There is no human being in the world who can understand those doctrines which say that one Being can be "He in whom we live, move and are."(Acts 17:28). Yet, it is not opposed to reason. It simply can not be attained by the unaided human mind. 

Transubstantiation is not necessary

Whether it is necessary is besides the point. Jesus says it is what He did:
John 6:51

King James Version (KJV)
⁵¹ I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

and makes no sense anyway

It makes no sense to you because it is a teaching which is spiritually discerned:
1 Corinthians 2:14

King James Version (KJV)
¹⁴ But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Corinthians 11:29

King James Version (KJV)
²⁹ For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.


Spiritual discernment comes with faith.

as it is dependent upon Roman/Greek physics which is out of date.

Whatever that means.

Neither does it require a priest.

Christ appointed His priesthood to confect the Eucharist when He told His Apostles to: 
Luke 22:19

King James Version (KJV)
¹⁹ And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

Faith is sufficient.

And believing in the Eucharist being the Body and Blood of our Lord is the test of faith. Without faith, you will not believe.

Peace, 

And to you,

Sincerely,

De Maria

Frozen Tribute - Shatter Me

Peter Kreeft conversion

A tribute to our wonderful Saint Pope John Paul II

In the manner which Jesus instructed

Lutero:
How can you offer up Jesus, when God is not yours to offer up?

In the manner which Jesus instructed:
1 Corinthians 11:23-25

King James Version (KJV)
²³ For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
²⁴ And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
²⁵ After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

That is not worship, but presumptuous blasphemy!

Yours is presumption and blasphemy.



Presumption that you know more than the Church which Scripture calls the Pillar of Truth:
1 Timothy 3:15

King James Version (KJV)
¹⁵ But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Blasphemy that you belittle the Sacrifice of our Lord and the Blood which He shed to sanctify you:
Hebrews 10:25-31

King James Version (KJV)
²⁵ Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
²⁶ For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
²⁷ But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
²⁸ He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
²⁹ Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
³⁰ For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
³¹ It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


Sincerely,

De Maria

Justification is by works and not by works

The great debate between Protestants and Catholics is whether justification is by works or not by works.  Protestants adamantly deny that works have anything to do with justification.  They maintain that justification is by faith alone.

Normally, Catholics, in what appears to me to be a knee jerk response, say that justification is by faith AND works.    Not by faith alone.

Who is right?  Well, I'm Catholic. So, whom do you think I believe?  The Catholics.

So, why do I call it a knee jerk response?   Because, before the advent of Martin Luther, the Father of the Protestant Revolution, some very prominent and influential Catholics also said that justification was by faith alone.

I know.  You don't believe me.  Ok, let me provide a some examples:

Basil of Caesarea (329-379)
“Let him who boasts boast in the Lord, that Christ has been made by God for us righteousness, wisdom, justification, redemption. This is perfect and pure boasting in God, when one is not proud on account of his own righteousness but knows that he is indeed unworthy of the true righteousness and is (or has been) justified solely by faith in Christ.” 

Ambrose (c. 339-97)
“Therefore let no one boast of his works, because no one can be justified by his works; but he who is just receives it as a gift, because he is justified by the washing of regeneration. It is faith, therefore, which delivers us by the blood of Christ, because blessed is he whose sins are forgiven, and to whom pardon is granted.” 

Jerome (347-420) on Romans 10:3
“God justifies by faith alone.” (Deus ex sola fide justificat).

So, in my opinion, if these Church Fathers used the term "faith alone", I conclude that there is a legitimate understanding of this term for Catholics.

Ok, I think I've muddied the waters enough.  The question that is probably going through your mind is, "What is it then?  Is it by works or not by works?  Is it by faith alone or by faith and works?

Please step back a moment and let me do the driving.  A better question to ask, in my opinion, is, "Can justification be both by works and not by works?  Can it be both by faith alone and by faith and works?"

My answer is, "Yes!"  They can both be true.

At this point, I expect Protestant and Catholic alike will quote me the old adage, "Two contradicting statements can not both be true at the same time!"  "Therefore, you are wrong!"

Please, step back one more time.  The key words in that adage are, "at the same time."  Yes, at first glance, the statements are contradictory.

Now, I would like you to ask this question, "How can it be both by works and not by works?  How can it be both by faith alone and by faith and works?"

Good question.

How can justification be by works?

Justification is by works, because God does not justify those who do not do His Works.  Only those who do the works of God will enter the Kingdom of heaven:

Scripture says:

Matthew 7:21
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

And again:

Romans 2:3-13
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

I hope it is clear to all that God does not justify those who do not do His will.  God does not justify those who do not keep His Commandments.  God justifies only those who do good works.

In that sense, justification is by works.

How can justification not be by works?

Justification is not literally, by our works.  We do not stand before the Just Judge and say to God, "No need for you to do anything.  I've washed myself of all sins and become righteous without any need for your interference."

No sir!  That is what the Pharisee did and Jesus said:

Luke 18:9-14
9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

This is what the Catholic Church teaches:

1994 Justification is the most excellent work of God's love made manifest in Christ Jesus and granted by the Holy Spirit. It is the opinion of St. Augustine that "the justification of the wicked is a greater work than the creation of heaven and earth," because "heaven and earth will pass away but the salvation and justification of the elect . . . will not pass away." He holds also that the justification of sinners surpasses the creation of the angels in justice, in that it bears witness to a greater mercy.

Therefore, in this sense, justification is not by our works.  We do not justify ourselves.  We do not wash ourselves of our sins.  Justification is God's work.

So far so good?  Have I lost anyone?  Better yet, has anyone begun to understand what I'm saying?

So, let's move on to the next question.

How can it be by faith alone?

My first response, for the sake of clarification, is, "Not the Protestant way."

Protestants deny that works before justification avail anything towards justification.  But it is clear to me, from Scripture, that unless someone keeps the Commandments and does the Will of God, he will not be justified.  Scripture says:

Romans 2:13
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

This verse, very clearly tells me, that only those who do the Commandments will be just before God.  Therefore, good works avail everything towards justification because without them, we won't be justified.  In fact, unless we keep the Commandments and do the will of God, we will be condemned.

Revelation 22:12-15

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

In what sense then, does faith alone avail for justification?

In the Sacraments. When we approach the Sacraments, we are like Abraham.

Genesis 15:6

6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

 We approach the Sacraments in an attitude of faith alone and he counts it to us as righteousness.  Let me give another example of a Church Father which perhaps will make this clearer:

"Word made flesh, by Word He maketh Very bread his flesh to be; Man in wine Christ's Blood partaketh, And if his senses fail to see, Faith alone the true heart waketh, To behold the mystery." (St. Thomas Aquinas, Pange Lingua)

So, it is by faith alone in the sense that God justifies those who believe in His promises.  It is by faith alone that we believe that God washes us of our sins in Baptism.  It is by faith alone that we believe that God seals us in the Holy Spirit in Confirmation.  It is by faith alone that we believe that God forgives our sins in Confession.  It is by faith alone that we believe that we receive the Body and Blood of our Lord in the Eucharist.  It is by faith alone that we believe we become one flesh with our spouses in Matrimony.  It is by faith alone that we believe we are healed of our afflictions in the Anointing of the sick.  It is by faith alone that we believe we are set aside for the Ministerial work of God in the laying of hands of the Priesthood.

We can't do any of those things for ourselves.  We can't wash our souls of sin.  We can't seal ourselves with the Holy Spirit.  We can't remove our own sins.  We can't turn bread into the Body and Blood of our Lord.  We can't make ourselves one flesh with our husbands and wives.  We can't heal our own bodies or souls.  We can't make ourselves ministers of God.

Those are God's works.  Not ours.  Therefore, it is by our faith alone that we are justified in the Sacraments.

Sooo, how is it not by faith alone?  How is it by faith and works?

In the sense that it doesn't matter how much we claim to believe God's promises. If we don't prove our faith by our works, we are not just before God.  Illustration:

Let's say that a man, a non-Catholic, comes to a Catholic Church and asks to be baptized.  He comes drunk, he speaks vulgar language and he comes accompanied by two women who are obviously prostitutes.  

The priest says, "Well, you're going to have to change, radically!  You'll have to repent of your sins and your going to have to give up drinking and give up loose women!"

The guy begins to attend RCIA.  But the guy never changes.  He says he believes but he keeps living the same lifestyle.

The point here is not whether or not the priest will allow him to be baptized.  The point here is that, regardless of whether he is baptized, he will not be justified.  Scripture is clear:

Romans 2:13

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

In that sense, it is not by faith alone.  Only those, who by faith do the works of God, only they will be justified before God:

James 2:24

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

And so, it is both by works and not by works.  It is both by faith alone and faith and works.

Let me know what you think.

See also, Did St. James and St. Paul agree?

Sincerely,

De Maria

Douay Genesis 40

Book Of Genesis Chapter 40
Joseph interpreteth the dreams of two of Pharao's servants in prison: the event declareth the interpretations to be true, but Joseph is forgotten.

[1] After this, it came to pass, that two eunuchs, the butler and the baker of the king of Egypt, offended their lord. [2] And Pharao being angry with them (now the one was chief butler, the other chief baker) [3] He sent them to the prison of the commander of the soldiers, in which Joseph also was prisoner, [4] But the keeper of the prison delivered them to Joseph, and he served them. Some little time passed, and they were kept in custody. [5] And they both dreamed a dream the same night, according to the interpretation agreeing to themselves:

[6] And when Joseph was come in to them in the morning, and saw them sad, [7] He asked them, saying: Why is your countenance sadder today than usual? [8] They answered: We have dreamed a dream, and there is nobody to interpret it to us. And Joseph said to them: Doth not interpretation belong to God? Tell me what you have dreamed. [9] The chief butler first told his dream: I saw before me a vine, [10] On which were three branches, which by little and little sent out buds, and after the blossoms brought forth ripe grapes:

[11] And the cup of Pharao was in my hand: and I took the grapes, and pressed them into the cup which I held, and I gave the cup to Pharao. [12] Joseph answered: This is the interpretation of the dream: The three branches are yet three days: [13] After which Pharao will remember thy service, and will restore thee to thy former place: and thou shalt present him the cup according to thy office, as before thou wast wont to do. [14] Only remember me, when it shall be well with thee, and do me this kindness: to put Pharao in mind to take me out of this prison: [15] For I was stolen away out of the land of the Hebrews, and here without any fault was cast into the dungeon.

[16] The chief baker seeing that he had wisely interpreted the dream, said: I also dreamed a dream, That I had three baskets of meal upon my head: [17] And that in one basket which was uppermost, I carried all meats that are made by the art of baking, and that the birds ate out of it. [18] Joseph answered: This is the interpretation of the dream: The three baskets are yet three days: [19] After which Pharao will take thy head from thee, and hang thee on a cross, and the birds shall tear thy flesh. [20] The third day after this was the birthday of Pharao: and he made a great feast for his servants, and at the banquet remembered the chief butler, and the chief baker.

[21] And he restored the one to his place to present him the cup: [22] The other he hanged on a gibbet, that the truth of the interpreter might be shewn. [23] But the chief butler, when things prospered with him, forgot his interpreter.

Did St. Paul and St. James, agree on justification?

I believe that St. James and St. Paul agreed. But I don’t think they did so intentionally. I think they wound up agreeing because their Teaching was protected by the Holy Spirit. Just like the infallible Catholic Church is protected from error by the Holy Spirit today. (You can read more about that drama, here)

In the meantime, did St. Paul and St. James, agree on justification?

Yes. These two verses show that both St. Paul and St. James agreed in the idea of justification by works.

Romans 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

But those aren’t the verses which we normally compare. We normally compare these two:

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Sooo, what’s the problem here? Is St. Paul contradicting St. James? Let’s compare these two statements.

Romans 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

St. Paul contradicting St. James is the least of our worries. Does St. Paul contradict himself?!

Thanks be to God that a long time ago, I learned that the key to understanding Scripture is to FIRST understand the Doctrines of the Catholic Church. You see, the Doctrines of the Catholic Church are based upon the Traditions of Jesus Christ. And it is upon these Traditions that the Apostles based their writings.

In Romans 2:13, St. Paul is speaking about the final justification when we stand before the Just Judge. Scripture says:
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

In Romans 3:28, St. Paul is speaking about the justification which occurs in the Sacraments. Scripture says:
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

St. Paul wasn’t contradicting himself. And St. Paul didn’t contradict St. James. Although that is precisely what I think St. James was thinking. That’s why he made him shave his head. You’ll have to read the bible to find out more about that.

Anyway, this is a really interesting topic. And  I think it also explains why Martin Luther got confused.

Let me know if you agree.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Prayer for the dead

The Protestant object that we should not pray for the dead.  They claim that those dead who are in heaven, don't need it.  And those dead who are in hell, don't want it.  And they deny the existence of Purgatory.

How do we respond?  Have you ever thought about why you pray for your beloved dead?  The most beautiful response I've ever heard is from C.S. Lewis, he said:

Of course I pray for the dead. The action is so spontaneous, so all but inevitable, that only the most compulsive theological case against it would deter me. And I hardly know how the rest of my prayers would survive if those for the dead were forbidden. At our age the majority of those we love best are dead. What sort of intercourse with God could I have if what I love best were unmentionable to Him? . . .(Mere Christianity).

And I think, that should suffice.  We pray for our beloved dead, because we love them.

But Protestants want more than that.  They don't, generally, accept the Spiritual groanings of God:

Romans 8:26King James Version (KJV)

26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

They live by the letter and not by the spirit:

1 Corinthians 2:14King James Version (KJV)

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

So, they claim that God has never permitted the living to intercede for the dead.  And they have taken great pains to remove any vestige of such an idea from the Bible.  The one book which has an explicit statement on the matter was removed because of that teaching.  Luther said:

 "I am so great an enemy to the second book of the Maccabees, and to Esther, that I wish they had not come to us at all, for they have too many heathen unnaturalities."

 The so-called, "heathen unnaturalities" to which he refers are found in 2 Maccabees 12:41-46.

41 Then they all blessed the just judgment of the Lord, who had discovered the things that were hidden.

42 And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought him, that the sin which had been committed might be forgotten. But the most valiant Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forasmuch as they saw before their eyes what had happened, because of the sins of those that were slain.

43 And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection,

44 (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,)

45 And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them.

46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

 Notice several Catholic doctrines here confirmed.

1.  Prayer for the dead.  The Jews who survived immediately began to pray that the sin of those dead might be forgotten.  "Forgotten by whom?" you might ask.  By God, of course.  Forgotten meaning forgiven.

But for the valiant Judas Maccabaeus, this wasn't enough.  He also ordered a monetary offering, a sacrifice of 12 thousand drachmas, to sent to Jerusalem in the name of the fallen.  What do Protestants say to that?  "BLASPHEMY!  We can't buy our way into heaven!  You can't buy anyone's way into heaven!"

But what does Jesus say?

Matthew 19:21King James Version (KJV)

21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

What?  Did Jesus just counsel someone to buy his way into heaven?  Of course not!  But giving of your wealth for the good of the people of God is a good deed, a sacrifice, a form of prayer,  which God takes into account for your soul and for those whom you love.

Notice how this falls perfectly in line with the Maccabean verse.

 45 And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them.

Because of the treasure which they offered in the name of the fallen, the fallen had treasure laid up for them.  This is the reason why the Protestants had this book taken from the Bible.

Aside:  There's a whole 'nother argument where Protestants claim that Luther kept the book in a separate section.  They will try to side step the issue that he did not regard it the Word of God.  Essentially, if not literally, removing the book from the Bible because the Bible is the Word of God, isn't it?  Anyway, back to our proof for prayer for the dead….

So, what other Catholic Doctrines are here confirmed?  We just mentioned "prayer for the dead" above.

2.  We also mentioned the Treasury of merit and we confirmed it in the New Testament.  Here's another confirmation for the Treasury of merit:

Mark 12King James Version (KJV)

43 And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:  44 For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.

 In a very real sense, the poor widow was giving her life for those whom she loved.  And her sacrifice was stored in the treasury in heaven.  That isn't explicit, but where else would it be stored?

3.  Indulgences.  The Treasury of merit is key to understanding the Doctrine of indulgences because indulgences, the idea that the merits of the Saints can be offered for the souls of those in Purgatory or anyone whom we love.  This rests upon the idea that the graces of the saints are stored up for us in heaven.

Many, unfortunately, limit the idea of "merits of the Saints" to Jesus and the canonized Saints.  But that isn't true.  The Church teaches that all the baptized are saints.  Our merits are also stored in that same treasury.  Otherwise, it would not make sense for us to "sell all we have and give to the poor and we will have treasure in heaven."

Where does 12 Macc mention indulgences?  Here:

And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them.

4.  And the entire idea of praying for the dead stands firmly upon the Doctrine that the dead will rise to eternal life.

44 (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,)

Well, that's a great explanation for Catholics.  We believe in praying for the dead.  And we accept  2 Macc and all the Deuterocanonicals as the  Word of God.  But Protestants have set these books aside, if they have not cast them out altogether and do not believe them to be the Word of God.

Its difficult and complicated to address this question.  Its very easy for Protestant to flick their wrist and deny the truth.  All they have to do is dismiss it.  In this regard, they remind me very much of atheists.  It is easy to deny anything.  All they have to say is, "I don't believe it."

But we are called to proclaim the truth, and that is more difficult.  CS Lewis said it this way:

It is no good asking for a simple religion. After all, real things aren’t simple. They look simple,but they’re not. The table I’m sitting at looks simple: but ask a scientist to tell you what it’s really made of—all about the atoms and how the light waves rebound from them and hit my eye and what they do to the optic nerve and what it does to my brain—and, of course, you will find what we call “seeing a table” lands you in mysteries and complications which you can hardly get to the end of. …

Reality, in fact, is always something you couldn’t have guessed. That’s one of the reasons I believe Christianity. It’s a religion you couldn’t have guessed. If it offered us just the kind of universe we’d always expected, I’d feel we were making it up. But, in fact, it’s not the sort of thing anyone would have made up. It has just that queer twist about it that real things have. So let’s leave behind all these boys’ philosophies—these over-simple answers. (Mere Christianity).

So here we go.

First, prayer for the dead and prayer to the Saints are related Doctrines.  They both fall under the Communion of Saints.  But they are not identical.

Prayer to the Saints rests upon the idea, that all who die in Christ are alive in Christ.

John 11:25King James Version (KJV)

25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Therefore, we are permitted to pray for their intercession in our behalf because they are, in a certain sense, more alive than we, since they are closer to the source of life.

Prayer for the dead rests upon the Doctrine of Purgatory.  The idea that the dead do not all go directly to heaven or to hell, but some go to an intermediate place of purification.

In the second place, prayer for the dead also hinges upon the idea that even if Purgatory does exist, as we believe it does, that our prayers would be of any benefit to them.

And, of course, we have to prove this from the 66 book Protestant Bible, because they generally accept no other proof.

The Existence of Purgatory

First of all, it seems rather strange to me that they would object to such a pure expression of the mercy of God. In Purgatory, it is God, the All Consuming Fire, which purifies us of our sins. We do nothing except yearn to be purified that we may admitted to His Presence.

God, could, of course, leave us to our sins and let us be condemned. But then, the majority of human beings would be condemned.

This is what Scripture says:

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Matthew 7:13-14

King James Version (KJV)

 13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
 14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


Does that mean, do you think, that God will destroy most of the world? After all, most of us die with sins on our souls, do we not?

But Scripture also says:

1 John 5:17All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

So, then we can be comforted that not all sin is mortal.

How is it then, that anyone with any kind of sin can enter heaven?  They can't:

Revelation 21:27And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Therefore, in order to enter into heaven, one must be purged of sin.  Scripture says so:

1 Corinthians 3:15
King James Version (KJV)
 15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Saved by fire?  What?  How is it that the righteous are burned?

Revelation 2:10Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Yeah, before we enter heaven, those of us who have incurred the temporal punishments for sin, we must be purified. Whether we do this in heaven or here on earth, that is our decision to make:

Luke 11:41But rather give alms of such things as ye have; and, behold, all things are clean unto you.

But that doesn't answer the question, "Does Purgatory exist?"  As much as the question of, "Why do you believe that Purgatory exits?  What is the reason for Purgatory?"

Scripture, however, points to a place of suffering which we call Purgatory.  I say, "suffering" because it isn't spelled out that this place is for purification.  The closest we come to that idea is:

1 Corinthians 3:10-15King James Version (KJV)

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.  11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.  12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;  13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.  14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.  15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Protestants will deny this is Purgatory because they don't see the word, "purgatory".  All I can do is continue with my logical proof.

This is the place where those who die in an imperfect state of grace are purified by suffering.  Scripture says:

1 Peter 4:1King James Version (KJV)

Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;  

And, in several places, Scripture reveals the existence of a spiritual prison where good men go to suffer at the hands of Satan:

Revelation 2:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

 What is this prison?

Revelation 20:5King James Version (KJV)

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Where did the rest of the dead go for a thousand years before they lived again?

1 Peter 3:19King James Version (KJV)

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Where were these spirits to which Jesus preached?

Protestants have no answer except to deny that it is Purgatory.  We can g on providing proofs of the existence of Purgatory til we're blue in the face, but Protestants will simply deny them because they don't say, "p-u-r-g-a-t-o-r-y".  Here's what I said to one of them regarding this attitude:

In this discussion over whether Purgatory is in Scripture, you seem to require an explicit text. Yet, when asked to provide an explicit text for Sola Scriptura, you and others on this blog, denied that explicit texts were necessary to prove doctrine.  Is there an explanation for this seeming discrepancy?

 The question was erased, no answer was provided.

So, I think I've provided a good case for the existence of Purgatory.  Catholics will probably agree.  Most Protestants will probably not agree.  But maybe, some will ask,

 Even if Purgatory does exist, 

what makes you think your prayers 

would be of any benefit to them? 

The short answer,  Infant Baptism.

The Catholic Church teaches that because of the faith of the parents, their children will receive the promised Holy Spirit when they are baptized.

What?  How is this related to prayer for the dead?

Good question.  Before we are baptized, the Church teaches that we do not have sanctifying grace in our souls.  It is sanctifying grace which gives our souls the life of Christ.  When we are baptized, we share in the eternal life of Christ.

1277 Baptism is birth into the new life in Christ. In accordance with the Lord's will, it is necessary for salvation, as is the Church herself, which we enter by Baptism.

Therefore, I believe we can say that the dead are brought to life.  And when we pray for the dead, we are praying for them to be brought to eternal life, are we not?

Ok, but infants aren't dead.

True.  But in the Sacraments, we encounter Jesus the same way that the Canaanite woman encountered Him:

Matthew 15:22-29King James Version (KJV)

22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.

28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

29 And Jesus departed from thence, and came nigh unto the sea of Galilee; and went up into a mountain, and sat down there.

Note that Jesus healed her daughter because of her faith.  The daughter never said anything.  Here's another example:

Matthew 9:18-25King James Version (KJV)

18 While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.

19 And Jesus arose, and followed him, and so did his disciples…..

23 And when Jesus came into the ruler's house, and saw the minstrels and the people making a noise,

24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.

25 But when the people were put forth, he went in, and took her by the hand, and the maid arose.

 Note that Jesus gave life to the daughter because of the faith of the parents.

And that is why I believe that God will listen to us when we pray for our beloved dead.

Is there any explicit text which shows a Christian praying for the dead?

We believe there is, but Protestants deny it.  We believe that St. Paul prayed for the dead Onesiphorus when he said:

2 Timothy 1:16-18King James Version (KJV)

16 The Lord give mercy unto the house of Onesiphorus; for he oft refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain:

17 But, when he was in Rome, he sought me out very diligently, and found me.

18 The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well.

But, since the text doesn't say, "Onesiphorus is d-e-a-d!"  Protestants deny it.

For more on prayer, see the difference between prayer, worship and liturgy or 7QT's on prayer,