I'm having a friendly discussion with Jesse, a Protestant who frequently comments here. It's taking place between his blog at Rational Christian and my last article, Will they be saved who do not do good works?
1 John 1:9 If we acknowledge our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from every wrongdoing.
1. Jesus Christ died for the sins of all men. But, only those who amend their lives and live in accordance to His instructions, will be saved.
Hebrews 5:9 and when he was made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him,
2. Those who continue to live wicked lives will not be saved no matter how many times they claim to believe in God:
Matthew 7: The True Disciple.
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ 23 Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you.[b] Depart from me, you evildoers.’
Matthew 7:21The True Disciple. “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
Romans 2:6 who will repay everyone according to his works: 7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, 8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness. 9 Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek. 10 But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek. 11 There is no partiality with God.
Judgment by the Interior Law. 12 All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it, and all who sin under the law will be judged in accordance with it. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified.
James 2:17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 Indeed someone may say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. 19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. 20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
On the contrary, those who claim salvation by faith alone give themselves credit for salvation. Essentially, judging themselves saved in the exclusion of God's judgment.
P.S. On second thought, maybe I misunderstood what you intended to say. If by that, you mean that the Church practices the heresy of semi-pelagianism, I'll remind you that it was the Catholic Church which condemned that heresy in the 5th century.
And, if that is what you meant to say, then it is obvious that you don't understand the meaning of the term, "semi-pelagianism". It means that someone thinks that he can save himself without God's grace, but only by his own efforts. Whereas, the existence of the Sacraments puts the lie to that idea. Because it is in the Sacraments that God pours out His saving grace upon those who obey His will.
Which leads us back to the same question which you refuse to answer. Will God save those who do not do good works? Yes or no.
Anyway, in his rebuttal, Jesse neglects to answer the question I asked. Will they be saved who do not do good works? But he moves on to another objection. He quotes me:
"It is Catholics who say, "I don't know if I'm saved. I've done my best, it is God who will judge me."
then says:
But how could we possibly live a life of joy and peace, if we are not able to have assurance of eternal life?
I don't know. Since the Catholic Church Teaches that we have assurance of salvation, we live a life of joy and peace when we give ourselves to Christ.
What the Catholic Church does not teach is the ABSOLUTE assurance of salvation. We don't claim, as the Pharisee did, that we know that we are saved. We, like the Apostle, say:
1 Corinthians 4:3 It does not concern me in the least that I be judged by you or any human tribunal; I do not even pass judgment on myself; 4 I am not conscious of anything against me, but I do not thereby stand acquitted; the one who judges me is the Lord.
Furthermore, it is precisely this self-righteous, pompous attitude (which is ironic since you claim to be humble) that is utterly incompatible with the biblical gospel (Galatians 1:6-12).
On the contrary, the biblical gospel condemns those who judge themselves saved:
1. First of all, if you judge yourself saved, you judge yourself righteous.
Luke 18: The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector. 9 He then addressed this parable to those who were convinced of their own righteousness and despised everyone else. ...
2. But if you say, "I am saved because of the righteousness of Christ which He has credited to me."
Scripture doesn't say any such thing. If you are not truly righteous, God will condemn you. God does not acquit the wicked.
Proverbs 17:15 Whoever acquits the wicked, whoever condemns the just—
both are an abomination to the Lord.
Galatians 6:7 Make no mistake: God is not mocked, for a person will reap only what he sows,
Those who want to merit the kingdom of heaven absolutely need to recognize the vital spiritual truth that God demands perfect obedience, which is impossible since we have all sinned against Him.That's another error passed on by Luther. God forgives sins.
1 John 1:9 If we acknowledge our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from every wrongdoing.
That is precisely why He sent His only begotten Son Jesus Christ into the world to make atonement for the sins of mankind.That doesn't mean what you think it means.
1. Jesus Christ died for the sins of all men. But, only those who amend their lives and live in accordance to His instructions, will be saved.
Hebrews 5:9 and when he was made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him,
2. Those who continue to live wicked lives will not be saved no matter how many times they claim to believe in God:
Matthew 7: The True Disciple.
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ 23 Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you.[b] Depart from me, you evildoers.’
It is strictly by God's grace that we are saved,No doubt.
not by our own efforts.Also true. But God will not pour out His grace on those who do not obey His will.
Matthew 7:21The True Disciple. “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
Our "work" is believing on the One whom He has sent (John 6:27-29).Again, that doesn't mean what you think it means. That doesn't say, "If you claim to believe in Jesus Christ, you will be saved. Scripture is clear that those who do not do the righteous works of God, will be condemned to eternal punishment.
Romans 2:6 who will repay everyone according to his works: 7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, 8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness. 9 Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek. 10 But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek. 11 There is no partiality with God.
Judgment by the Interior Law. 12 All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it, and all who sin under the law will be judged in accordance with it. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified.
He saves all who come to Him with a repentant heart through faith.But not those who come with claims of a repentant heart through faith alone and no works to prove their faith.
James 2:17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 Indeed someone may say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. 19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. 20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
It is only by the blood of Jesus that we are saved from God's wrath and eternal condemnation (Hebrews 10:10-14).This is true. And where do you get this Blood? We get it in the Holy Eucharist when we attend the Mass. You reject this Sacrament.
Thus, Sola Fide simply gives all the credit to God alone.
On the contrary, those who claim salvation by faith alone give themselves credit for salvation. Essentially, judging themselves saved in the exclusion of God's judgment.
The fact of the matter is that the Council of Trent affirmed the heresy of semi-pelagianism."Perfectly true. But, also declared the heresy of faith alone.
P.S. On second thought, maybe I misunderstood what you intended to say. If by that, you mean that the Church practices the heresy of semi-pelagianism, I'll remind you that it was the Catholic Church which condemned that heresy in the 5th century.
And, if that is what you meant to say, then it is obvious that you don't understand the meaning of the term, "semi-pelagianism". It means that someone thinks that he can save himself without God's grace, but only by his own efforts. Whereas, the existence of the Sacraments puts the lie to that idea. Because it is in the Sacraments that God pours out His saving grace upon those who obey His will.
Which leads us back to the same question which you refuse to answer. Will God save those who do not do good works? Yes or no.
You definitely bit off more than you could chew this time, De Maria.
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"Will they be saved who do not do good works?"
ReplyDeleteThis question requires more than a simple yes or no answer. It is also a loaded question because it operates on the disputed assumption that faith and works are necessary for one's justification before God.
"I don't know. Since the Catholic Church Teaches that we have assurance of salvation, we live a life of joy and peace when we give ourselves to Christ."
How can a Roman Catholic say that he has assurance of salvation at all when for him the forgiveness of sin is not settled immediately by the single act of Christ at Calvary? It must be confessed to a priest and acts of penance are prescribed to make restitution. This must be done over and over again in a lifetime.
"What the Catholic Church does not teach is the ABSOLUTE assurance of salvation."
So, people can have absolute assurance that they do not have absolute assurance of salvation.
"We don't claim, as the Pharisee did, that we know that we are saved (1 Corinthians 4:3-4)."
But Roman Catholics do, like the Pharisees of old, rely in part on their good works to get right with God.
1 Corinthians 4:3-4 does not speak to the issue of assurance of salvation, but to the greatness of one's service to God. Ultimately, the only thing that matters is God's approval. If the righteousness of Jesus Christ is imputed to our account, then we are already fully accepted before God as righteous. That would be a judgement He makes in regard to us, not us in regard to our own standing before Him.
"First of all, if you judge yourself saved, you judge yourself righteous. Luke 18: The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector. 9 He then addressed this parable to those who were convinced of their own righteousness and despised everyone else..."
I do not assign any status to myself but accept in humility what God has given me. This is not something to be taken lightly. You turn the message of Luke 18:9-14 right on its own head. It condemns people who trust in their works to have a righteous standing before God. That would include things like going to church, baptism, confessing sins to a priest, partaking in communion, praying to saints, not committing evil actions, and a host of other things people do.
"2. But if you say, "I am saved because of the righteousness of Christ which He has credited to me." Scripture doesn't say any such thing. If you are not truly righteous, God will condemn you. God does not acquit the wicked (Proverbs 17:15; Galatians 6:7)."
Romans 3:21-22 speaks of the righteousness of God being received on the basis of faith. Faith is not said to be His righteousness but is what brings us to it. Romans 4:6-11 speaks of righteousness being credited to us, but not faith as being that righteousness. God gives us a righteous standing in Christ through faith. We no longer live wickedly by the power of His grace.
"That's another error passed on by Luther. God forgives sins."
ReplyDeleteIt is not an error to say that God is perfect and condemns sinners. Paul himself said, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23)
"Jesus Christ died for the sins of all men. But, only those who amend their lives and live in accordance to His instructions, will be saved (Hebrews 5:9)."
God initiates this transformative process of sanctification and brings it to completion.
"But God will not pour out His grace on those who do not obey His will."
The heart of the problem with Roman Catholicism is that it offers people an inadequate gospel message. It is always the work of Christ plus something else. It is the work of Christ plus my own works, the merits of Mary and the saints, etc. Christ alone is not sufficient.
"Again, that [John 6:29] doesn't mean what you think it means. That doesn't say, "If you claim to believe in Jesus Christ, you will be saved. Scripture is clear that those who do not do the righteous works of God, will be condemned to eternal punishment."
That is a straw man argument. John R. Dummelow's Commentary on the Bible has this excerpt on John 6:29:
"For the plural ’works,’ i.e. a multitude of supposed meritorious acts, Jesus substitutes one single work, faith in Himself. Faith in Jesus is called a ’work,’ because it is a definite act of the will. It is the one work required, because it is the solemn dedication of the whole life to God, and virtually includes in itself all other works, and renders them acceptable."
That is the kind of faith which is acceptable to God. No one even suggested that a person can be saved by an empty profession of faith.
Roman Catholic apologists cite passages such as Romans 2:6-13, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, 2 Corinthians 5:10, and Galatians 6:7 as evidence against the doctrine of justification by faith alone because they bring up the doing of good works or God punishing people for failure to do so. However, these kinds of objections miss the point. The dispute is not about whether good works should be done, but the relationship faith and works have with each other. Further, those texts merely contrast the different lifestyles of believers and nonbelievers. It describes the separate eternal fates that both will experience. They do not say that good works can merit justification before God.
"And where do you get this Blood? We get it in the Holy Eucharist when we attend the Mass. You reject this Sacrament."
Christians get the blood of Christ applied to them daily by faith in their Messiah. Theophagy is actually a pagan concept.
"On the contrary, those who claim salvation by faith alone give themselves credit for salvation. Essentially, judging themselves saved in the exclusion of God's judgment."
If justification is a gift of God to be received on the basis of faith to the exclusion of good works, then the recipient has nothing to boast about. It is for Him to give and us to receive. If justification is to be earned even in part by good works, then God would be a debtor to man. This only goes to illustrate that Roman Catholicism preaches a man-centered gospel.