Only those who obey Christ will be saved

1. DE MARIA May 25, 2013 at 10:34 am

   ROBERT May 25, 2013 at 10:16 am
   De Maria,
   Actually, I don’t feel good about myself. I am confident in my salvation not because I am faithful but because the Judge became incarnate and gave His life for me,

   He gave His life for all men. Including those who reject Him and wind up condemned.
   Hebrews 2:3
   How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

   and, believing in His resurrection I am saved.

   Only those who obey Christ will be saved:
   Hebrews 5:9
   And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

   Your personal claims of salvation amount to the sin of presumption. You have exalted yourself above your station:
   Luke 18:14 ….for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

   Before God’s bar of justice, I am not faithful.

   If you know this for a fact, then how are you saved? Only the holy will see the Lord. Not the faithless.
   Hebrews 12:14
   Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

   He doesn’t grade on a curve, y’know.

   How God grades is His business.

   Throwing out a random verse from Romans 14 that is not dealing with justification proves nothing.

   Whenever you are ready, we can go through the Scriptures which deal with justification. Let us begin with this one:
   Romans 2:13
   (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

   You should actually try and make an argument from a verse that is pertinent to the situation.

   You should try to understand Scripture according to the way Scripture prescribes:
   2 Corinthians 3:6
   Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

   Apparently, you don’t know that you are saved. At least you’re being consistent with Roman teaching.

   It is from Scripture. We leave judgment to almighty God:
   

   1 Corinthians 4:2-4
   King James Version (KJV)
   2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful. 3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. 4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

   But I tell you that you can know you are saved and that God wants you to know if you are saved. But that would mean trusting in Christ alone and not in a church that cannot save you. If you can participate in the mass daily and still end up in hell, the sacraments are doing absolutely nothing for you.

   Whether the Sacraments and the Mass are doing anything for me is between me and God. You need to attend to your own duty.
   

   Luke 17:10
   So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

   Sincerely,

   De Maria

Not faithful?

                       ROBERT May 25, 2013 at 10:16 am

1. Actually, I don’t feel good about myself. I am confident in my salvation not because I am faithful but because the Judge became incarnate and gave His life for me, and, believing in His resurrection I am saved. Before God’s bar of justice, I am not faithful. He doesn’t grade on a curve, y’know. You're not faithful? And yet you are confident in your salvation? But didn't you say that you were saved by your faith alone? If you have no faith, then that means you have no salvation. Does God save the faithless? Didn't you say that He doesn't grade on a curve?
2. Your belief system is full of contradictions.

3. Throwing out a random verse from Romans 14 that is not dealing with justification proves nothing. You should actually try and make an argument from a verse that is pertinent to the situation.

   You've yet to provide any verse at all and your words are so contradictory, I don't think you'll be able to provide any verses.  The Scriptures do not contradict themselves. 

   Apparently, you don’t know that you are saved. 

   Because God is my Judge.  Here's what Scripture says about that:

4. 1 Corinthians 4:2-4 King James Version

   2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful. 3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

5. At least you’re being consistent with Roman teaching. But I tell you that you can know you are saved and that God wants you to know if you are saved. But that would mean trusting in Christ alone and not in a church that cannot save you. If you can participate in the mass daily and still end up in hell, the sacraments are doing absolutely nothing for you.

   Where does Scripture say to trust in Christ alone?  You claim to trust Scripture, which was not written by Christ, therefore you're putting your trust in other people, not in Christ alone.  And you also trust your mom and dad, I assume.  I do.  And there are many other people whom I trust.  Here's what Scripture says about trusting others:

6. Hebrews 13:7 King James Version

   7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation. 

   Sounds like Scripture wants you to trust your leaders in the Church. 

7. 
   

Feel good religion

1. 
   

   ROBERT May 25, 2013 at 6:30 am
   ….If I’m a Muslim or Buddhist who does good and “feels” close to God, I’m going to end up in heaven anyway…..

   Nope. The Catholic Church teaches that God is our judge. Your opinion about yourself has nothing to do with whether you will wind up in heaven.

   For example:
   As a Protestant, you claim that you are saved because you consider yourself faithful. You feel good about yourself.

   The Catholic Church says that it doesn’t matter how faithful you claim to be. You are not the Judge. God is the one who decides whether you will be in heaven or not.

   In the same way, God will judge the Catholic, Muslim, Hindu and pagan of every sort, including also, the atheists:
   

   Romans 14:10
   But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

   Sincerely,

   De Maria
2. 

   
   

Converts tend to retain an evangelistic zeal

RT said:

The evangelistic zeal we see from these converts only betrays the fact that they want to retain Protestant ways of interpretation and thinking.

No.  They are just being obedient to the Church’s call for the New Evangelization.  Here's the proof.

1.  If they wanted to retain Protestant ways of interpretation and thinking, they would not rely on the Magisterium for Teaching, as they obviously do.

2.  I also have an evangelistic zeal for converts and I'm a convert from atheism.  Meaning that, it is the fact that we are converts which gives us the desire to shout from the rooftops all that we now know.

Sincerely,
De Maria

God does not grade on a curve

De Maria,

Apparently, you don’t know that you are saved. At least you’re being consistent with Roman teaching. 

The Catholic Church is consistent with Biblical Teaching:

1 Corinthians 4:3But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.

But I tell you that you can know you are saved and that God wants you to know if you are saved. 

That's true.  But Scripture qualifies that statement with a very important fact:

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.  2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.  3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

So, if we keep His Commandments, we can be sure that we will go to heaven.  Do you keep His Commandments?  Yes or no.

But that would mean trusting in Christ alone and not in a church that cannot save you. 

And yet, Scripture instructs you to trust in the Church:

1 Timothy 3:15But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Otherwise, Scripture would not call the Church, the Pillar and Ground of the Truth.

If you can participate in the mass daily and still end up in hell, the sacraments are doing absolutely nothing for you.

There's no difference there from the Protestant who claims to have faith but ends up in hell.  There are many, Scripture says, who will have faith in vain.

1 Timothy 1:19Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:

Hebrews 6:4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,  5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,  6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Throwing out a random verse from Romans 14 that is not dealing with justification proves nothing. You should actually try and make an argument from a verse that is pertinent to the situation.

All the verses I've provided are pertinent to the situation, you just don't want to hear it.  You're living in denial of the truth.

Actually, I don’t feel good about myself. I am confident in my salvation not because I am faithful but because the Judge became incarnate and gave His life for me, and, believing in His resurrection I am saved. Before God’s bar of justice, I am not faithful. He doesn’t grade on a curve, y’know.

Several points here:

1.  You call God your Judge but you deny that He will judge you.  Thus, you are making yourself the judge of your salvation.

2.  You declare yourself unfaithful, yet you claim that God will allow you into heaven, even though you acknowledge that He does not grade on a curve.  Thus, damning yourself, because you are right.  God does not lie, God does not fudge.  You are either worthy of salvation or not.  God alone judges that fact.

1 Corinthians 6:8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.  9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,  10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

1. 1. 
      
   
   

God is Judge

 

2. RT May 25, 2013 at 6:30 am

   ….If I’m a Muslim or Buddhist who does good and “feels” close to God, I’m going to end up in heaven anyway…..

   Nope. The Catholic Church teaches that God is our judge. Your opinion about yourself has nothing to do with whether you will wind up in heaven.

   For example:
   As a Protestant, you claim that you are saved because you consider yourself faithful. You feel good about yourself.

   The Catholic Church says that it doesn’t matter how faithful you claim to be. You are not the Judge. God is the one who decides whether you will be in heaven or not.

   In the same way, God will judge the Catholic, Muslim, Hindu and pagan of every sort, including also, the atheists:
   Romans 14:10
   But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

   Sincerely,

   De Maria

The Catholic position on Redemption

DeMaria,
Thanks for trying to answer, but I don’t think those verses really applied to what I was asking. I was hoping someone could explain from the Catholic position how we are all objectively redeemed (the price has been paid and satisfaction has been made) and what that entails, how it differs from subjectively applied redemption, and how satisfaction has been made but somehow not all men are under that satisfaction. As well as if the distinction between sufficient and efficacious grace plays into this.

I think Jason has hit the nail on the head. I gave you the Catholic position but you didn’t recognize it because you are looking at it from a Protestant perspective.

Christ died in order that all mankind might be redeemed. But some men rejected their redemption. Only those who cooperated with the grace of God have applied the grace of redemption to their souls and will be saved.

2 Cor 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

Christ died for all so that some might be saved. Those who are saved are those who obey God, those who keep the Commandments.

Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Sincerely,

De Maria

1. 
   
   

Salvation and grace

DE MARIA May 24, 2013 at 11:16 am

TIE May 23, 2013 at 8:13 pm
How is it that Christ suffered so that the human race might be freed from sin by making satisfaction for all the crimes of mankind and winning sufficient grace for the salvation of all men, but then God is not satisfied with a large portion of mankind who aren’t saved in the end?

It has to do with free will. God only approves of those men who do what He commands:
Exodus 20:6
King James Version (KJV)
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

How can we claim Christ made satisfaction to the Father but then the Father still not be satisfied, as some men are not saved?

Because some men have rejected the gift of salvation:
Hebrews 2:2-4
King James Version (KJV)
2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; 3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; 4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

How can Catholics say that all men are actually redeemed and their sins paid for, but also say that not all of mankind is saved? (I know there’s a difference between redemption objectively accomplished by the passion and subjectively applied through the sacraments; but I still don’t understand what that difference means in reality and how even being objectively redeemed doesn’t imply salvation).

If I understand you correctly, you have left out the requirement of our voluntary submission to God’s will:
Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Does this have to do with the distinction between sufficient and efficacious grace?

To my understanding, it has to do with free will.

Climbing the stairway to heaven

DE MARIA May 24, 2013 at 11:06 am

Olda May 23, 2013 at 8:18 pmDe Maria,I wouldn’t expect anything less from a wholly semi-Pelagian adherent.Enjoy your ladder-climbing.G’nite.

Semi pelagianism was condemned by the Catholic Church as a heresy. As for ladder climbing, yes, I am doing my best to climb the stairway to heaven by doing all which God wills:
John 14:21
King James Version (KJV)
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Faith and obedience

DE MARIA May 23, 2013 at 8:06 pm

ROBERT May 23, 2013 at 7:21 pmI have to say, it does matter what the pope was actually saying. …. (And yes, I know he wasn’t speaking ex cathedra. The pope is infallible except when he’s not. It’s a weasely doctrine.)

Are you having trouble accepting that you don’t have all the answers? You might want to consider what Scripture says:
Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

And:
Hebrews 13:17
King James Version (KJV)
17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Or do you consider those weasely doctrines too?

God is our Judge

DE MARIA May 23, 2013 at 7:57 pm

TOA  May 23, 2013 at 7:15 pmThe “good” that atheists do or that any of us do, won’t redeem us.

1. All men have been redeemed by the blood of Christ.
2 Corinthians 5:15
And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

2. But no man will be saved who does not do good.
1 Corinthians 6:9
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

First of all, “no one does good, no not one” (Romans)

God takes into account the good which people do in every nation:
ames 2:25
Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

We are saved by grace THROUGH faith. Can anyone tell me what sort of faith that atheists have in Christ Jesus?

The sort of faith that is found in the law which God put in their hearts:
Romans 2:14-16
King James Version (KJV)
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Are you positive?

 First, the Executive Summary

On Aug 4, I tested positive for COVID19.  I immediately went to see Dr. Immanuel at her Reheboth Clinic in Sugarland.  She prescribed Hydroxychloroquine (HCQ), Budesonide on a nebulizer and a Z pac.  I immediately felt better.  So, I'm convinced that HCQ and Budesonide are silver bullets against the COVID19 virus.

Thank God that there are doctors like Dr. Immanuel who are defying the medical community and saving lives by prescribing these medicines.

The long story

On July 27th, I was at work and feeling fine.  I work manual labor, outdoors.  The day was hot and I sweated like crazy.  I got into the bus that is provided to take us back to our cars and I got a chill because of the a/c.  It didn't stop when I got out of the bus and continued throughout the night.  It later was accompanied by a fever.  I didn't sleep much that night, so I used that as the excuse to miss work and head back home.  It was the last day of work for the month, anyway.  

At this point, I had no idea it was COVID.  I thought I had merely caught a cold because of going into the cold bus when I was so wet with sweat from working.  I was sure I'd be fine in a few days and I'd just go back to work.  But that was not to be.

6 days later, I was still sick and the symptoms had changed.  I also had a burning headache.  Something I had never experienced and a burning in the chest.  No, not like the feeling one gets when we read the Bible.  It was scary.  Although, all the symptoms were mild, I decided I could not go to work like that.  

By the grace of God, my wife remembered the video we had seen highlighting Dr. Immanuel and her work with COVID patients.  Her clinic is 50 miles from our house and my wife asked, "Do you want me to call her?"  I said, "sure".  She found out that it is a walk-in clinic, so I headed straight there. I haven't mentioned that I am a diabetic as well as have high blood pressure and high cholesterol.

At the clinic, they immediately diagnosed me as being positive for COVID simply by my symptoms. I refused the test because it would cost $150. But I promised them I would take the free test the County offered. They prescribed hydroxichloroquine, budesonide on a nebulizer, and a Z pac. Plus, they gave me a shot of some anti-biotic, in-house. That evening, I felt a bit worse. But when I woke up the next day, I felt 100%. I felt so good, I hesitated to get a test, but my wife and children insisted. So I did and on Aug. 4th, I took the test at a nearby County facility. 6 days later, the result was positive for COVID. But I was no longer ill.

After my quarantine period was over and the County declared me “fit for duty”. I went back to work and found out that I was not the only one who went home sick, that day. That poor guy was put in the hospital and in critical condition, fighting for his life. He did not have the benefit of Dr. Immanuel, HCQ or Bodesonide. I told my supervisor to advise those treatments. But I don’t know if it was ever done. I think the guy is still ill.

I also learned that prior to either of us being ill, another fellow had gone to the hospital and COVID had eaten away at his lungs.

Needless to say, based on my experience, I believe that Dr. Immanuel and her staff are life savers. HCQ and Bodesonide are silver bullets against COVID19 when provided early.

Thank you Dr. Immanuel, Dr. Ola and your entire staff.  May God bless you for the work you do.

Bottomline

I guess you might be asking, "this is a religious blog, why are you posting this?"

Well, I feel it is my duty to inform people of what God has done for me.  And to inform them also, that it HCQ does work.  As well as Budesonide.  You don't have to wait until you're dying before you get the medicine.  There are doctors out there like Dr. Immanuel of Sugarland and Dr. Bartlett of Midland, who will help you.  

May God bless you,

Sincerely,

De Maria

St. Paul said faith and works

Paul did not say faith AND WORKS, he said FAITH, NOT WORKS (Ephesians 2:8,9). This is NOT the kind of faith that remains "alone" in producing good works which demonstrates that it's dead, and James condemns. This is the kind of faith that TRUSTS IN CHRIST ALONE FOR SALVATION. This person is MADE ALIVE IN CHRIST, CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS FOR GOOD WORKS. The good works are the fruit, not the root of our salvation. Once again, Man is saved through faith and not by works; yet faith, if it is true, will be substantiated and confirmed by good works. Your church has this OUT OF BALANCE. So how many good works must you accomplish and add to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Him save you? See why you have no assurance of salvation? It's because you are trusting in works for salvation and don't know for sure if they measure up or not.

St. Paul did not say faith ALONE. He said, "doers are justified."

He washes away my sins. I don't literally get it in a sacrament. I certainly don't kill Him again.

We get it exactly as He says. In the Sacrament of the Eucharist.

I'm not talking about His glory. We will never be God. The righteousness of God imputed to us (Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9; 2 Corinthians 5:1-21) does not imply we take His glory. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ (Galatians 3:27). For by ONE SPIRIT we have all been baptized into ONE BODY (1 Corinthians 12:13). Not to be confused with water baptism.

If you want to walk amongst the Saints in this life, you will be water Baptized, calling on the name of Christ, and He will wash away your sins.

More evidence you trust in works salvation. This says the books (plural) were opened and (another) book (singular) was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books (plural). Their works are not judged to determine if they performed well enough to earn their salvation. For the lost dead, they are judged according to their works to determine their condemnation in the lake of fire. For some it will be greater than others. For believers, they are judged by their works to determine rewards and loss of rewards in heaven (1 Corinthians 3:13-15).

It doesn't say anything about a believers book. Many who say to Christ, Lord, Lord, are in the other book. Many who claim faith ALONE, are in the other book. Many who have been baptized, are in the other book. Many who have received the Sacraments, are in the other book. It is those who have DONE THE WILL OF GOD who are in the book of life. Some who have never known the Gospel or the Old Covenant, but have been faithful to the Law written in their hearts, are in the book of life. Most of all, those who have obeyed Christ and kept His Commands and accepted His Sacraments, they are in the book of life. God knows who they are. We don't.

Christ rose again on the third day. He told the thief on the cross that this day you will be with me in paradise and mentioned absolutely nothing about purgatory. The dogma of purgatory absolutely denies the sufficiency of Christ's atonement for sin on the cross and is a detestable doctrine.

You have no understanding of the doctrine. You have given the definition of it as the determination of our reward. All who are in Purgatory will be saved on the Last Day. You believe in Purgatory and don't even know it.

So his suffering in the flesh caused him to become sinless and bypass purgatory? Yeah right. Sinful desires seem insignificant when one's life is in jeopardy. Suffering for Christ advances the progress of sanctification. This verse has nothing to do with purgatory.

On the contrary, you just don't understand it. But you already explained it and then turned around and denied it.

This verse has nothing to do with purgatory either.

It has to do with the works which the Thief accomplished from the Cross. You didn't even realize it, did you?

Maybe so, which caused him to grow to be more mature in Christ faster, but it was still the blood of Christ that washed away his sins. There were no further sins to suffer for in purgatory. Christ's atonement for sin on the cross is ALLSUFFICIENT. No purgatory necessary. Thank God I have been set free in Christ, know the truth and don't have to live in bondage to such false teachings.

Was the Thief not also suffering? He was CRUCIFIED.

Please continue to prayerfully consider the truth and God bless

You too. I have enjoyed our discussion and I thank you for taking the time to talk to me. It is rare that I get the opportunity to go into detail in matters of Scripture.

May God bless you and yours,

Sincerely,

De Maria

The Catholic order is the best

DE MARIA May 8, 2013 at 7:29 pm

UK said:
Catechism1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. …The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care … to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments. 

My reading of Jn 3 v5 AND 6 is that ‘water’ related to the natural birth of man through his mother’s uterine waters.

Because one is naturally born through the “uterine waters” of their mother, water is an apt symbol of birth. Therefore, in Water Baptism, the water poured on our bodies signifies and brings about the new birth of the Creature by the Spirit.

What then matters is subsequently being born of the Spirit. ‘Reborn’ is incorrect and very misleading if it implies that water is an agent of rebirth.

On the contrary, your statement simply shows a lack of faith in Christ. It is akin to Namaan who denied that God could cure him by the action of washing seven times in the waters of the Jordan. We believe that God can cause our new birth through water.

This antithesis between earth and heaven is continued in v6 with flesh v spirit.
The first line of 1257 is clearly wrong because Jesus Himself accepted the thief on the cross into His kingdom unbaptised.

On the contrary.  Christ certainly accepted the Good Thief.  But there are reasons why he is called the Good Thief and which are the basis of his salvation by Jesus Christ.

1. Scripture does not say that the Good Thief was not baptized.

2. Scripture says that everyone in Judea was baptized by St. John.

Matthew 3:5-7

King James Version (KJV)

5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, 6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.


3. Jesus and His disciples also baptized many.

John 3:22-24

King James Version (KJV)

22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.


4. In addition, Catholic Doctrine says that one may be baptized of blood. The Good Thief definitely meets this criteria since he was crucified alongside Jesus.

5. Catholic Doctrine also says that one must suffer with Christ to be saved. The Good Thief meets this criteria.

And finally, Catholic Doctrine says that one is saved if God says that one is saved. Jesus is God and Jesus saved the Good Thief, whether he was baptized or not.

Fortunately the last sentence of 1257 gainsays the first by removing it as an essential step.1257 also states “The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism…” Jesus mentions only belief in John 5 v 24. Yes, water baptism is important but I am not even sure that the Great Commission must of necessity mean water baptism as opposed to baptising in/into/with the Spirit

God has set out a normal means of salvation by the Church. If anyone strikes out on their own to be saved according to their own ideas, they are on their own. But God has been very clear that He saves the obedient:

Hebrews 5:9  And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

I hope you will retain any earlier appreciation that creeds and catechisms are fallible.

Perhaps. But Catholic Doctrine is infallible because the Church is the Pillar of Truth (1 Tim 3:15).

This came home to me forcibly when I saw that Catholic Teaching had massaged and thereby set out 10 different Commandments from the ones listed in Exodus (and Deuteronomy)

They are the exact same Commandments. Protestants have changed some things but the Catholic order is the best.


Sincerely,


De Maria

Jesus was speaking plainly, John 6

JQ said,
That's completely irrelevant, since it was God who provided Ezekiel with all the details concerning what he should do and what he should say.

And it is God who explained the metaphor:
Ezekiel 5:1 And thou, son of man, take thee a sharp knife, take thee a barber's razor, and cause it to pass upon thine head and upon thy beard: then take thee balances to weigh, and divide the hair.  2 Thou shalt burn with fire a third part in the midst of the city, when the days of the siege are fulfilled: and thou shalt take a third part, and smite about it with a knife: and a third part thou shalt scatter in the wind; and I will draw out a sword after them.  3 Thou shalt also take thereof a few in number, and bind them in thy skirts.  4 Then take of them again, and cast them into the midst of the fire, and burn them in the fire; for thereof shall a fire come forth into all the house of Israel.


5 Thus saith the Lord God; This is Jerusalem: I have set it in the midst of the nations and countries that are round about her.  6 And she hath changed my judgments into wickedness more than the nations, and my statutes more than the countries that are round about her: for they have refused my judgments and my statutes, they have not walked in them.  7 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Because ye multiplied more than the nations that are round about you, and have not walked in my statutes, neither have kept my judgments, neither have done according to the judgments of the nations that are round about you;


8 Therefore thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, even I, am against thee, and will execute judgments in the midst of thee in the sight of the nations.

That's begging the question. Why should He have called "those guys" back?

Because an honest person would not allow people to make a decision based upon misunderstanding. And Jesus was nothing if not absolutely honest.

In fact, John 6:65 clearly indicates that those who went away in disbelief were not enabled by God to come to Him.

That is correct. They could not believe.

Elsewhere we read that Jesus spoke in parables so that the non-elect would not understand His message.

Elsewhere it says that Jesus spoke in parables to the unbelieving Jews, but He would explain them to the Apostles.

Mark 4:10-12
10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.
11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

That's an argument from silence.

You are confused. You are the one claiming that Jesus was speaking symbolically. But there is no evidence that He was doing any such thing. The evidence points to the fact that He was speaking plainly:

John 6

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world….

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

Therefore, you are the one arguing from silence. I am arguing from what He said. You are arguing from what He didn't say.

There is no indication in that passage that His true disciples were offended by His words or that they took His words literally.

You are wrong. Amongst those who left were many true disciples. So says Scripture.

60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

One can use figurative language and still mean what one says, as in e.g. John 10:1ff and John 15:1ff.

And one can use explicit language as well. Its not a matter of what one can do, but of what Jesus actually did. He was speaking plainly.

Jesus meant what He said, John 6

JQ said,
Likewise, Ezekiel was commanded to take one third of his hair and beard and burn it in fire, take one third and strike it with the sword, and take the remaining third and let the wind scatter it. The interpretation of this symbolic act was to be presented as "This is Jerusalem". (Ezekiel 5:1ff)

Ezekiel is not God, is he? Jesus is God, isn't He?

If Jesus were speaking symbolically, He would have called these guys back and said, "Hey, guys, come on, I was speaking symbolically." 

John 6:60-66

King James Version (KJV)
60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.


But He didn't. And He didn't take the Apostles aside and say to them, "This is a symbol." No, He didn't. He said:

67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

He said exactly what He meant.

The best explanation for attending the Mass

De Maria April 28th, 2013 12:09 am :

I actually wanted to post in response to the excellent opening article. I believe that is probably the second best explanation of why we should attend the Mass I have ever read. The best is this:

Hebrews 10:25-36
King James Version (KJV)
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together,

As I read it, St. Paul seems to be saying that we should not neglect to assemble together. The assumption here is the assembling together for the worship of God.

as the manner of some is;

Apparently, some in that day, were already neglecting the Mass (i.e. the assembly. I recognize this assembly as the Mass because of the description which follows.)

but exhorting one another:

and so, we should encourage our brethren who might be slipping and back sliding to come to the assembly.

and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

I think this is the exhortation which he suggests we mention. It will be beneficial for them to attend as this will be considered on the Day which approaches. Do we all agree that this is the Day of Judgment?

26 For if we sin willfully

In the context in which we are reading this, St. Paul seems to call the neglect of joining the assembly a willful sin. Which is, of course, the precise definition of a “mortal” sin.

CCC#1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

This is the first consequence listed for the willful absence from the Mass. It has to do with the nature of the Mass. In the Mass, we participate in the once for all sacrifice for the sins of mankind. So, if we neglect to appear there, there remains no more sacrifice for our sins. There is no other sacrifice for sin except that presented at the Mass.

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

This is the other consequence which we look to if we miss the Mass. We become God’s adversaries and can expect nothing less than a fearful judgment and God’s indignation.

28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

Now, he contrasts the Old Law and its assembly to the New Dispensation and its Assembly. In the Old Law, which had a mere animal sacrifice at its center, if that assembly were missed, the offender would be stoned to death.

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Before I break this down, does anyone not recognize the Eucharist here? This is why I know this assembly is a reference to the Mass. Because it is in the Mass that we receive the Body of Christ and the Blood of the Covenant in the Holy Eucharist.

Anyway, St. Paul says:

29 Of how much sorer punishment,

Death is not a sufficiently severe punishment for one who misses the Mass? What could be more severe? The loss of eternal life. That’s what.

But why?

suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Because those who miss the Mass intentionally, “…. crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (Heb 6:6).

30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Those are pretty strong words for simply missing an assembly. It sounds as though missing the Mass intentionally is a personal affront to God.

Sincerely,

De Maria