Absolutely, the Canon is a part of Sacred Tradition. Jesus Christ only established Tradition. And the Apostles and Disciples were first inspired to preach the New Testament and then to write it.
I've been having a grand old time on Ken's blog. And so, I'd like to take a break from reviewing Dr. Mizzi's articles. God willing, I'll get back to those later.
On Ken's blog, we are discussing Sacred Tradition and Sola Scriptura. The Protestant stance seems to be that:
1. Scripture alone is infallible.
2. Therefore Sacred Tradition can't be infallible.
The Catholic position is this.
1. Where does Scripture say that Scripture ALONE is infallible? We don't see it.
2. Sacred Tradition was the source of Sacred Scripture, therefore it must have also been infallible before Scripture was written.
3. Neither Scripture nor Tradition ever state that Tradition or the Church somehow lose the charism of infallibility.
Lets break it down.
Jesus Christ is infallible. He taught His disciples infallibly and left them to teach as He taught.
The Catholic presumption is that He left them to teach infallibly. I assume that Catholics and Protestants agree that the Apostles and disciples passed down the Traditions of Jesus Christ infallibly.
Just in case some Protestant's don't agree, here's what Scripture says on the matter:
2 Peter 1:19-21
King James Version (KJV)
19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
1. Holy men spoke infallibly (moved by the Holy Ghost).
2. Holy men wrote infallibly (also moved by the Holy Ghost).
There are more verses which show that Sacred Tradition is infallible at the time of the Apostles. And none which even hint that the teaching of the Church is ever not infallible.
Let me know what you think.
Sincerely,
De Maria
It is true that Scripture alone is inspired-inerrant. There is nothing else that is like this. No church, pope or individual is inspired-inerrant.
ReplyDeleteWhat do you mean by "Sacred Tradition"? If you mean something besides the written Scripture then please identify it specifically with some examples.
Your "Catholic presumption is that He left them to teach infallibly" cannot be sustained by Scripture. The apostles could still err as we saw with Paul rebuking Peter in Galatians 1.
The apostles also warned that there would be false teachers who would come into the church itself and deceive many. We see this warning in Acts 20:29-30: "I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them."
and 2 Peter 2:1-3: " But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep."
These 2 passages alone show that the church is not protected from error. If it were, then these warnings would not be needed.
Since the church can err, where do we see error? We look for it in doctrines. Do the doctrines have the full support of the Scripture? Do they deny any clear teaching of Scripture? This is where the discussion needs to go.
AnonymousFebruary 3, 2013 at 10:45 AM
ReplyDeleteIt is true that Scripture alone is inspired-inerrant.
It is also true that the infallible Church wrote the inerrant Scriptures, infallibly.
There is nothing else that is like this.
True. Because there is a big difference between inerrancy and infallibility.
Inerrancy is a one time gift.
Infallibility is a continuing gift.
The Scriptures were written in the past. No more Scripture will ever be written.
The Church that wrote the Scriptures infallibly, also teaches the Scriptures infallibly and Jesus Christ will ensure through the Holy Spirit that the Church will always teach His Word infallibly. That is why Scripture says that the Church is the Pillar of Truth (1 Tim 3:15) and the Teacher of the Wisdom of God (Eph 3:10). Because the Church is infallible.
No church, pope or individual is inspired
You're wrong. Scripture tells us that the men who wrote the Scriptures were inspired to do so by the Holy Spirit. THE MEN WERE INSPIRED. The Scriptures were not the only thing that resulted from that inspiration. So did Teaching. Teaching is the handing on of Tradition.
Scripture says this:
2 Peter 1:19-21
King James Version (KJV)
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
1st. "We have a sure word of Prophecy" means that St. Peter, representing the Church,speaks the Word of God more surely than anyone else.
2nd. "but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." means that men were inspired by the Holy Spirit to SPEAK. These same men later wrote down what they originally spoke.
3rd. Therefore, Scripture contradicts your idea that Scripture alone is inspired by God.
There are other verses which disprove your claim too. For instance:
John 20:22
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit on the Apostles. Inspired means "God breathed." Jesus is God.
-inerrant.
But the Church is infallible.
What do you mean by "Sacred Tradition"?
The Traditions which Jesus Christ commanded the Church to teach (Matt 28:19-20). Jesus did not write any Scripture. He taught the Church and commanded the Church to pass on the Teaching.
Then in the Pentecost, the Holy Spirit inspired the Holy Men of God to speak (2 Pet 1:21).
That is the Sacred Tradition that is still being passed down by the Church today (2 Tim 2:2).
If you mean something besides the written Scripture then please identify it specifically with some examples.
The New Testament is based upon the Traditions of Jesus Christ. In essence, the New Testament is the very first Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Your "Catholic presumption is that He left them to teach infallibly" cannot be sustained by Scripture.
I have already proved that wrong.
The apostles could still err as we saw with Paul rebuking Peter in Galatians 1.
DeleteSt. Peter was not teaching any doctrine. St. Peter was simply doing what St. Paul himself recommended.
Think about it. St. Peter withdrew from the Gentiles when the Jewish Christians came around because it would affect their conscience.
What did St. Paul recommend MORE THAN ONCE in his Epistles? Let me show you:
1 Corinthians 8:12
But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
and also:
1 Corinthians 10:32
Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
1 Corinthians 9:22
King James Version (KJV)
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
And if St. Paul admonished St. Peter for caving to the Jews, why did he himself cave to the Jews and circumcised St. Timothy:
Acts 16:3
King James Version (KJV)
3 Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek.
Bottom line, St. Peter made no error. If anyone made an error in this case, it was St. Paul.
For another, St. Paul did not admonish St. Peter for teaching a wrong doctrine. But for behaving in a manner with which he apparently disagreed. Although, in other places in Scripture, he reveals that he does the same thing.
Therefore, the First Pope committed no error there.
The apostles also warned that there would be false teachers who would come into the church itself and deceive many.
They have, throughout the centuries. They have come into the Church but they are not part of the Church. The Protestants are an example of these. Luther and Calvin were Catholic priests.
We see this warning in Acts 20:29-30: "I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them."
Correct. But you presuppose that is speaking of the Church because you accept the traditions of men. Whereas Scripture tells you that the Church will teach the wisdom of God even in heaven (Eph 3:10). But you disregard that and accept the teaching of men.
and 2 Peter 2:1-3: " But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep."
All true. But Scripture says that the Church is the Pillar of Truth (1 Tim 3:15) and Scripture can not be broken. Therefore, unless you claim that the Scripture is contradicting itself, the Church still today, upholds the truth.
These 2 passages alone show that the church is not protected from error. If it were, then these warnings would not be needed.
These 2 passages are prophecies which have been fulfilled over and over. But the Church is still here and still teaching the same Traditions which Jesus passed down. That is proof that the Church is protected from error.
Since the church can err,
The Church can not err. But you can and have in coming to that conclusion.
where do we see error?
DeleteIn Protestant doctrine which you accept.
We look for it in doctrines. Do the doctrines have the full support of the Scripture? Do they deny any clear teaching of Scripture? This is where the discussion needs to go.
Be my guest. I have already shown you that the Protestant pillars, Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide both contradict Scripture. But you don't want to go there.
Sola Scriptura contradicts Scripture:
2 Thessalonians 2:15
King James Version (KJV)
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
We are to hold the Traditions of Jesus Christ. Not Scripture alone.
Hebrews 13:7
King James Version (KJV)
7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
We are to learn doctrine from our Leaders in the Church, not from Scripture alone.
James 2:24
King James Version (KJV)
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
We are justified by faith and works, not by faith alone.
On these two doctrines your entire theology rests. Your theology contradicts Scripture.
What Scripture says the church is infallible? Where is it written that infallibility is a continuing gift? It was not the “church” that wrote the Scripture but prophets, apostles, a layman and some unknowns. Note also that the Scripture never identifies the church at Rome thee church that wrote the Scripture.
DeleteYou assert that the church “teaches the Scriptures infallibly”. Where in Scripture is this mentioned considering that the Scripture warns that there will be false teachers in the church that will deceive many. 2 Peter 2:1 for example.
Again, the Scripture never identifies the church at Rome as the church in I Tim3:15.
It is one thing to claim that men who wrote the Scripture were inspired to do so and another to prove that those after them such as bishops would be in their teachings. I know of no bishop ever who claimed their writings were inspired-inerrant. Do you?
When Jesus commanded Matthew 28:19-20 did He teach His disciples that Mary was sinless. Queen of heaven, indulgences and an infallible papacy which was to be in Rome?
If Sacred Tradition is what the apostles taught then why don’t we see any of these things in their writings?
BTW- we already know there were popes who taught falsely.
meyu February 3, 2013 at 10:49 PM
DeleteHello Meyu, thanks for responding.
What Scripture says the church is infallible?
1 Timothy 3:15
King James Version (KJV)
15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
Where is it written that infallibility is a continuing gift?
1 Tim 3:15 above does not say that the Church will ever cease being the Pillar of Truth.
Whereas Eph 3:10 below says that the Church will teach the Wisdom of God in the heavens. Heaven is eternal and the Wisdom of God is infallible. Therefore the Church that teaches the infallible wisdom of God in the heavens will do so eternally.
Ephesians 3:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
It was not the “church” that wrote the Scripture but prophets, apostles, a layman and some unknowns.
The New Testament was written by the Church. All the men who wrote the New Testament were members of the Church when they did so.
Note also that the Scripture never identifies the church at Rome thee church that wrote the Scripture.
It doesn't have to. The Church identified in Scripture is the Church of Jesus Christ. The Church of Jesus Christ was born in Jerusalem but moved to Rome.
You assert that the church “teaches the Scriptures infallibly”.
Correction. The Church teaches the Word of God in Tradition and Scripture infallibly.
Where in Scripture is this mentioned
1 Tim 3:15 and Eph 3:10 for starters.
considering that the Scripture warns that there will be false teachers in the church that will deceive many.
That doesn't mean that the Church will be deceived.
For instance, in the time of Luther, he became a false teacher and tried to sway the Church into believing his errors. Many people in the Church followed him, to their own destruction. But the Church continued and continues teaching the same truth today.
Luther deceived many. But he did not deceive the Church.
2 Peter 2:1 for example.
Throughout all the trials, the Pope has remained faithful. That is why St. Peter said:
2 Pet 1:
16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
Again, the Scripture never identifies the church at Rome as the church in I Tim3:15.
DeleteThe Church is not identified by its location in Rome but by the See of Peter. There was a time in history when the Church moved its headquarters to France. But it is now back in Rome. But the Pope was always the leader of the Church because Jesus Christ appointed him as Shepherd of His Flock.
It is one thing to claim that men who wrote the Scripture were inspired to do so and another to prove that those after them such as bishops would be in their teachings. I know of no bishop ever who claimed their writings were inspired-inerrant. Do you?
Did I say that individual Bishops were infallible? No, I didn't. So I don't know why you're asking me that question?
Scripture teaches that the Pope is infallible:
Matthew 16:19
King James Version (KJV)
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
And that the Church is infallible (1 Tim 3:15 and Eph 3:10).
I don't see the Scripture teaching that individual Bishops are infallible. Nor is that a teaching of the Catholic Church.
When Jesus commanded Matthew 28:19-20 did He teach His disciples that Mary was sinless. Queen of heaven, indulgences and an infallible papacy
Yes.
which was to be in Rome?
That was to be where ever He sends His Pope.
If Sacred Tradition is what the apostles taught then why don’t we see any of these things in their writings?
We do. You don't.
1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
BTW- we already know there were popes who taught falsely.
IF they did any such thing, they didn't do it from the See of Peter. And that is a requirement for infallibility. The Pope's instructions to the entire Church for the purpose of moral edification from the See of Peter are infallible.
No others.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Matt 16:19 does not teach papal infallibly. Keep in mind the power to bind and loose was given also to the other apostles in Matt 18:19. Do you know what the keys of the kingdom of heaven are? Where did Peter use the keys that Christ gave him?
DeleteI Tim 3:15 and Eph 3:10 does not mean that the church is infallible. If you know how to exegete these passages you will not find them teaching infallibility.
AnonymousFebruary 10, 2013 at 10:36 AM
ReplyDeleteMatt 16:19 does not teach papal infallibly.
I believe it does.
Keep in mind the power to bind and loose was given also to the other apostles in Matt 18:19.
Yes, but the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven were only given to St. Peter.
Do you know what the keys of the kingdom of heaven are?
Yes, they symbolize that St. Peter was given the office of Prime Minister. The Prime Minister is the highest ranking of the King's Ministers. He has the authority to run the Kingdom in the absence of the King.
Where did Peter use the keys that Christ gave him?
Acts 1:15-26 St. Peter stood up and instructed the Church that Judas Iscariot should be replaced.
Acts 2:14-57 St. Peter stood up and led the Church in preaching to all of Judea.
Acts 5 St. Peter condemned Ananias and his wife for lying to the Church about their donations.
And there are many others.
I Tim 3:15 and Eph 3:10 does not mean that the church is infallible. If you know how to exegete these passages you will not find them teaching infallibility.
1 Tim 3:15 says that the Church is the Pillar of Truth and therefore always upholds the truth. That is the definition of infallible. The Church never teaches error, but only truth.
Eph 3:10 The Church always teaches the Wisdom of God. The Wisdom of God is infallible, therefore the Church is infallible.
Do you know that for centuries your church did not believe the pope was infallible?
ReplyDeleteSecondly, Peter never thought of himself as the chief shepherd of the church nor do any of the other apostles. Third, Peter was not infallible as we see his rebuke by Paul in Galatians. Fourth, he was not the only leader in the NT church. James, John and Paul also carried as much influence as Peter. Paul would be a better candidate for the supreme leader since he wrote more letters. Fifth, Christ never promised that the church could not err. In fact He warns that it can as does Paul,Peter and John. Sixth, the keys have to do with the gospel. It is the gospel that opens the door to the kingdom of God for those who believe it. Peter was the first to preach the gospel in Acts. Other apostles also did.
Anonymous
ReplyDeleteDo you know that for centuries your church did not believe the pope was infallible?
The Church has always taught that the Pope is infallible. Jesus Christ gave the office of Peter this blessing when He gave him the keys.
Secondly, Peter never thought of himself as the chief shepherd of the church nor do any of the other apostles.
Yes, he did. That is why he is always depicted as standing up before the Church and guiding the direction they should take.
Third, Peter was not infallible as we see his rebuke by Paul in Galatians.
I already explained this to you at length. St. Paul did not correct St. Peter for any teaching. The Scripture shows that St. Paul committed a human error. He rebuked St. Peter for doing the very same thing he always preached should be done. Apparently, St. Paul was upset because many Christians were having trouble understanding his teachings: 2 Peter 3:16
Fourth, he was not the only leader in the NT church. James, John and Paul also carried as much influence as Peter.
They carried a great deal of weight, that is true. But St. Peter was appointed the ruler over them as well as the rest of the Church: Luke 22:31-32
Paul would be a better candidate for the supreme leader since he wrote more letters.
1. The letters all say the same thing.
2. Jesus Christ appointed St. Peter.
Fifth, Christ never promised that the church could not err.
Yes, He did. Matt 16:18-19
In fact He warns that it can as does Paul,Peter and John.
Nope. Some people in the Church can err. But the Church is protected by God and in fact, Scripture says that the Church teaches the Wisdom of God: Eph 3:10
Sixth, the keys have to do with the gospel.
The keys signify that Jesus made St. Peter his Prime Minister. Second in command only to Him.
It is the gospel that opens the door to the kingdom of God for those who believe it. Peter was the first to preach the gospel in Acts. Other apostles also did.
The Gospel certainly opens doors. But St. Peter holds the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven which he uses to bind on earth and in heaven. And loose on earth and in heaven.