Sunday, November 3, 2013

Clement considered the Church of Rome authoritative



Lutero:

You've been fed snippets to feed the papacy's lust for supremacy.

It begins: "The CHURCH of God which sojourns at Rome, to the CHURCH of God sojourning at Corinth..."

No, papal bull. No proclamation of, "Clement, called to be a pope by God..." Just the church at Rome writing to the church at Corinth.
It is obvious that Clement considered the Church of Rome authoritative over the Church at Corinth. 

Owing, dear brethren, to the sudden and successive calamitous events which have happened to ourselves, we feel that we have been somewhat tardy turning out attention to the points respecting WHICH YOU CONSULTED US.
Excellent! That means that the Church of Corinth turned to the Church of Rome for direction.
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Note, the church at Rome had been consulted. They weren't acting pre-emptively from a position of authority OVER Corinth.
Exactly! They were consulted as a subordinate consults an authority.


"Chap. 14 "It is right and holy therefore, men and brethren, rather to obey God than to follow those who, through pride and sedition, have become the leaders of a detestable emulation.

For we shall incur no slight injury, but rather great danger, if we rashly yield ourselves to the inclinations of men who aim at exciting strife and tumults, so as to draw us away from what is good. Let us be kind one to another after the pattern of the tender mercy and benignity of our Creator."
 Perfect! Note how the Church of Rome considers itself authoritative and legitimate. It declares what is "detestable emulation" with no hesitation. In other words, It declares what is heresy.
Years later, Rome through pride and sedition, yielded themselves to the inclinations of men who aimed at strife and tumults and led to the split with the EOs.
I see it the other way around. But, are you Orthodox? I assumed you were Protestant. But if you are Orthodox, I will gladly show you the error of your Church's government run theology. The Catholic Church remains one to this day. But the Orthodox are separated by nation. Russian, Greek, etc. So, I don't care if you're Protestant or Orthodox, I'll explain to you the faith of Christ taught by the Catholic Church.


Men who are seeking to gain power and authority over the whole church are drawing away from what it good. Again, which is exactly what Rome did.
It is what the Protestants did. The Church continued to obey the Word of God and submits to the Authority given by God:
Hebrews 13:17

King James Version (KJV)

17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

The Protestants denied the Scripture and rebelled against Christ's Church:
Matthew 18:17

King James Version (KJV)

17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.



Let's examine how Clement described what the leadership should look like - what those we are supposed to submit to will be:
Yeah and amen! Let's do so in context. First, was Clement a Bishop? Yes. Do Protestants have Bishops? No.

Did Clement hold to all Catholic doctrines? Yes. Do Protestants? No.
Did Clement believe in passing down Tradition? He said, "
If anyone disobeys the things which have been said by him [Jesus] through us," 
So that is a resounding, yes. Do Protestants? No.

So, what Clement wrote is written by a Catholic teaching Catholicism.


Chap. 16 "For Christ is of those who are humble-minded, and not of those who exalt themselves over His flock. Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Sceptre of the Majesty of God, did not come in the pomp of arrogance, although He might have done so, but in a lowly condition, as the Holy Spirit had declared regarding Him.
Amen! The Catholic Teaching. The Priests are the Servants of the Servants of God.
2686 Ordained ministers are also responsible for the formation in prayer of their brothers and sisters in Christ. Servants of the Good Shepherd, they are ordained to lead the People of God to the living waters of prayer: the Word of God, the liturgy, the theological life (the life of faith, hope, and charity), and the Today of God in concrete situations.


Chap. 17 "Let us be imitators also of those who in goat-skins and sheep-skins went about proclaiming the coming of Christ; I mean Elijah, Elisha, and Ezekiel among the prophets, with those others to whom a like testimony is borne in Scripture.
I don't see any Protestants in goat skins. In fact, they preach that in order to be saved, one must be rich. They call it the "prosperity" gospel:

Chap. 38 "Let our whole body, then, be preserved in, Christ Jesus;
Amen! This is Catholic Teaching which Protestant ridicule! 
795 Christ and his Church thus together make up the "whole Christ" (Christus totus). The Church is one with Christ. The saints are acutely aware of this unity:Let us rejoice then and give thanks that we have become not only Christians, but Christ himself. Do you understand and grasp, brethren, God's grace toward us? Marvel and rejoice: we have become Christ. For if he is the head, we are the members; he and we together are the whole man. . . . The fullness of Christ then is the head and the members. But what does "head and members" mean? Christ and the Church.Our redeemer has shown himself to be one person with the holy Church whom he has taken to himself.
Head and members form as it were one and the same mystical person.
A reply of St. Joan of Arc to her judges sums up the faith of the holy doctors and the good sense of the believer: "About Jesus Christ and the Church, I simply know they're just one thing, and we shouldn't complicate the matter."


and let every one be subject to his neighbour, according to the special gift bestowed upon him.
Again, a Catholic Teaching which Protestant ridicule. It is called "faith and works".

2063 The covenant and dialogue between God and man are also attested to by the fact that all the obligations are stated in the first person ("I am the Lord.") and addressed by God to another personal subject ("you"). In all God's commandments, the singular personal pronoun designates the recipient. God makes his will known to each person in particular, at the same time as he makes it known to the whole people:The Lord prescribed love towards God and taught justice towards neighbor, so that man would be neither unjust, nor unworthy of God. Thus, through the Decalogue, God prepared man to become his friend and to live in harmony with his neighbor. . . . The words of the Decalogue remain likewise for us Christians. Far from being abolished, they have received amplification and development from the fact of the coming of the Lord in the flesh.


And then Clement describes how the unholy seek to destroy those who are holier.
Perfectly describing how the Protestants seek to destroy the Catholic Church.


He also points out His high view of Scriptures by calling them "the true utterances of the Holy Spirit."
That is Catholic Teaching. Note that SAINT Clement does not preach "Scripture Alone".


Clement of Rome
Accept our counsel and you will have nothing to regret. . . . If anyone disobeys the things which have been said by him [Jesus] through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in no small danger. We, however, shall be innocent of this sin and will pray with entreaty and supplication that the Creator of all may keep unharmed the number of his elect (Letter to the Corinthians 58:2, 59:1[A.D. 95]).

The things said by Jesus THROUGH US. That isn't Scripture alone. That is TRADITION. Because Clement did not write any of the Scriptures.


Chap 45 "Ye are fond of contention, brethren, and full of zeal about things which do not pertain to salvation. Look carefully into the Scriptures, which are the true utterances of the Holy Spirit.<...>There (Scriptures) you will not find that the righteous were cast off by men who themselves were holy. The righteous were indeed persecuted, but only by the wicked. They were cast into prison, but only by the unholy; they were stoned, but only by transgressers, they were slain, but only by the acursed, and such as had conceived an unrighteous envy against them.
Note also, that Clement is speaking from a positin of authority in the Church. Therefore, he is speaking in the mode of Teaching. What we call, Magisterium.


<...>For what shall we say, brethren? Was Daniel cast into the den of lions by such as feared God? Were Ananias, and Azarias, and Mishsel shut up on a furnace of fire by those who observed the great and glorious worship of the Most Hight? Far from us be such a thought!
Amen! The Catholic Church has never done any such thing. Although liars continually accuse her of such things. But that is because the unholy try to destroy the Holy Church of Jesus Christ, as Clement said above and you duly noted.

Who, then, were they that did such things? The hateful, and those full of all wickedness, were roused to such a pitch of fury, that they inflicted torture on those who served God with a holy and blameless purpose (of heart), not knowing that the Most High is the Defender and Protector of all such as with a pure conscience venerate His all-excellent name...
Amen! The hateful do such things. The Catholic Church has never done them.


What did the RC soon after they achieved power through the state? They began persecuting, torturing and killing others. Clement tells us that those who do this are "hateful" and "full of all wickedness." And "full of zeal about things which do not pertain to salvation."
Clement never says that the Catholic Church did any such thing. You are reading that into his words.


And what sort of examples are we supposed to follow? Clement lists Daniel, Moses, Job, and the 3 children of Israel -
Clement is speaking as leader of the Church. Clement is the second Pope of the Catholic Church. He was Pope before the title, Pope, was even coined.


Chap 46 "Such examples, therefore, brethren, it is right that we should follow; since it is written, "Cleave to the holy, for those that cleave to them shall (themselves) be made holy." And again, in another place, (the Scripture) saith, "With a harmless man thou shalt prove thyself harmless, and with an elect man thou shalt be elect, and with a perverse man thou shalt show thyself perverse." Let us cleave, therefore, to the innocent and righteous, since these are the elect of God.
And here, St. Clement is speaking of himself and the Catholic Church and inspiring all to cleave to her.


He tells us to cleave to those who are innocent and righteous.
Yeah. Those in the Church.


Rome says the papacy is to be submitted to and obeyed
Amen! That is from Scripture. I repeat:
Matthew 18:17

King James Version (KJV)

17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Hebrews 13:17

King James Version (KJV)

17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

If you think that is a misunderstanding of Scripture. Then show me from Scripture where Scripture gives you license to disobey the Church.

You can't. Because Scripture calls the Church the Pillar of Truth (1 Tim 3:15) which teaches the Wisdom of God (Eph 3:10). Anyone who tells you to disobey the Church is advising you to disobey Christ:
Luke 10:16

King James Version (KJV)

16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

- and the innocence and righteousness of the papacy has nothing to do with it.

Did Christ appoint you judge over His Church? Whether the Popes were all innocent, Christ will Judge. 

1 Corinthians 2:15

King James Version (KJV)

15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

Romans 14:4

King James Version (KJV)

Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Who are you to judge another man's servant?



So, Scripture AND Clement
The Catholic Church wrote the New Testament and canonized the Old and the New into the Bible.
Clement is the 2nd Pope of the Catholic Church.

Therefore, the Catholic Church tell us...


tell us that sinful behavior and sinful deeds are NOT acceptable in the leadership of the church.
Amen!


Even Clement testifies against the Roman Church and the type of leadership she has produced.
On the contrary, St. Clement never mentions anything about the Catholic Church. He, as representative of the Catholic Church at Rome, is reprimanding and teaching all others.


Also if you bother to read the whole letter you will discover that it references throughout the PLURALITY of elders. LINK
And that means what? We know that there is a plurality of elders in the Catholic Church. But one is appointed chief of all others:
John 21:17
He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed mysheep.
Matthew 16:18-19

King James Version (KJV)

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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