You first. Show me one Scripture that says we need to hold to Scripture alone
LG:Show me one scripture where an apostle listens to a confession and hands out penance.
It doesn't happen. Its a made up story.
You first. Show me one Scripture that says we need to hold to Scripture alone. Or one that says we need to hold to faith alone. They ain't there. Man made doctrines.
LG is having trouble putting 2 and 2 together. If Our Lord Jesus Christ gave the power to forgive sins to the Apostles, then how did the Apostles know a person's sin unless it was spoken? To assume that a person is sinful then simply stating "your sins are forgiven" is in itself, a serious sin because it is presumptive.
This is typical of anti-Catholic bigots who don't read their Bible.
Exactly! What they also don't realize, is that the signs (miracles) of Jesus, where He healed peoples' illnesses and injuries, are foreshadowings of the Sacraments.
1 Corinthians 5:1* It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and of a kind that is not found even among pagans; for a man is living with his father's wife. 2 And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you. 3* For though absent in body I am present in spirit, and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment 4* in the name of the Lord Jesus on the man who has done such a thing. When you are assembled, and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5* you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. * 6* Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our paschal lamb, has been sacrificed. 8* Let us, therefore, celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9* I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with immoral men; 10* not at all meaning the immoral of this world, or the greedy and robbers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11* But rather I wrote * to you not to associate with any one who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or robber--not even to eat with such a one. 12* For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 13* God judges those outside. "Drive out the wicked person from among you."
St. Paul here is hearing about the sin of a particular individual and is passing out sentence.
And here is yet another, but from the Old Testament!
Numbers 12: 1 Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of the Cushite woman whom he had married, for he had married a Cushite woman; 2 and they said, "Has the LORD indeed spoken only through Moses? Has he not spoken through us also?" And the LORD heard it. 3 Now the man Moses was very meek, more than all men that were on the face of the earth. 4 And suddenly the LORD said to Moses and to Aaron and Miriam, "Come out, you three, to the tent of meeting." And the three of them came out. 5 And the LORD came down in a pillar of cloud, and stood at the door of the tent, and called Aaron and Miriam; and they both came forward. 6 And he said, "Hear my words: If there is a prophet among you, I the LORD make myself known to him in a vision, I speak with him in a dream. 7* Not so with my servant Moses; he is entrusted with all my house. 8* With him I speak mouth to mouth, clearly, and not in dark speech; and he beholds the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?" 9 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against them, and he departed; 10 and when the cloud removed from over the tent, behold, Miriam was leprous, as white as snow. And Aaron turned towards Miriam, and behold, she was leprous. 11 And Aaron said to Moses, "Oh, my lord, do not* punish us because we have done foolishly and have sinned. 12 Let her not be as one dead, of whom the flesh is half consumed when he comes out of his mother's womb." 13 And Moses cried to the LORD, "Heal her, O God, I beseech thee." 14 But the LORD said to Moses, "If her father had but spit in her face, should she not be shamed seven days? Let her be shut up outside the camp seven days, and after that she may be brought in again." 15 So Miriam was shut up outside the camp seven days; and the people did not set out on the march till Miriam was brought in again. 16 After that the people set out from Hazeroth, and encamped in the wilderness of Paran."
Notice that Aaron confesses his sin DIRECTLY TO Moses and not to God. Then Moses asks God to forgive them. Then the punishment is rendered ACCORDING to the law set by God, Himself.
No going around it. We are to confess our sins to a representative of God, who stands in His place, and we are to seek a penance.
And here is one that demonstrates one of the elements pertaining to the Doctrine of Reconciliation - Examination of Conscience
2 Corinthians 1* This is the third time I am coming to you. Any charge must be sustained by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 2 I warned those who sinned before and all the others, and I warn them now while absent, as I did when present on my second visit, that if I come again I will not spare them-- 3 since you desire proof that Christ is speaking in me. He is not weak in dealing with you, but is powerful in you. 4* For he was crucified in weakness, but lives by the power of God. For we are weak in him, but in dealing with you we shall live with him by the power of God. 5 EXAMINE YOURSELFS, to see whether you are holding to your faith. Test yourselves. Do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless indeed you fail to meet the test! 6 I hope you will find out that we have not failed. 7 But we pray God that you may not do wrong--not that we may appear to have met the test, but that you may do what is right, though we may seem to have failed. 8 For we cannot do anything against the truth, but only for the truth. 9 For we are glad when we are weak and you are strong. What we pray for is your improvement. 10* I write this while I am away from you, in order that when I come I may not have to be severe in my use of the authority which the Lord has given me for building up and not for tearing down. 11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Mend your ways, heed my appeal, agree with one another, live in peace, and the God of love and peace will be with you. 12* Greet one another with a holy kiss. 13* All the saints greet you. 14* The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of * the Holy Spirit be with you all.
Here is St. Paul telling the members of the Church at Corinth to examine their minds to see if they have sinned and then warns them of HIS POWER TO ENACT THE PUNISHMENT OF CHRIST through the authority given to him.
That is really good. St. Paul is warning that the Church, which he represents, has authority to discipline them in order to build up the Church:
The pertinent words are these:
9 For we are glad when we are weak and you are strong. What we pray for is your improvement. 10* I write this while I am away from you, in order that when I come I may not have to be severe in my use of the authority which the Lord has given me for building up and not for tearing down.
Thanks! And there are several more in other Epistles and Letters of the Apostles, so I don't know why pro-testants don't see them...unless of course it's because they don't WANT to see them.
LG is having trouble putting 2 and 2 together. If Our Lord Jesus Christ gave the power to forgive sins to the Apostles, then how did the Apostles know a person's sin unless it was spoken? To assume that a person is sinful then simply stating "your sins are forgiven" is in itself, a serious sin because it is presumptive.
ReplyDeleteThis is typical of anti-Catholic bigots who don't read their Bible.
God Bless!
Exactly! What they also don't realize, is that the signs (miracles) of Jesus, where He healed peoples' illnesses and injuries, are foreshadowings of the Sacraments.
DeletePerhaps a Scriptural text will help.
ReplyDelete1 Corinthians 5:1* It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and of a kind that is not found even among pagans; for a man is living with his father's wife. 2 And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you. 3* For though absent in body I am present in spirit, and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment 4* in the name of the Lord Jesus on the man who has done such a thing. When you are assembled, and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5* you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. * 6* Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our paschal lamb, has been sacrificed. 8* Let us, therefore, celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9* I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with immoral men; 10* not at all meaning the immoral of this world, or the greedy and robbers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11* But rather I wrote * to you not to associate with any one who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or robber--not even to eat with such a one. 12* For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 13* God judges those outside. "Drive out the wicked person from among you."
St. Paul here is hearing about the sin of a particular individual and is passing out sentence.
Great example!
DeleteAnd here is yet another, but from the Old Testament!
ReplyDeleteNumbers 12: 1 Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of the Cushite woman whom he had married, for he had married a Cushite woman; 2 and they said, "Has the LORD indeed spoken only through Moses? Has he not spoken through us also?" And the LORD heard it. 3 Now the man Moses was very meek, more than all men that were on the face of the earth. 4 And suddenly the LORD said to Moses and to Aaron and Miriam, "Come out, you three, to the tent of meeting." And the three of them came out. 5 And the LORD came down in a pillar of cloud, and stood at the door of the tent, and called Aaron and Miriam; and they both came forward. 6 And he said, "Hear my words: If there is a prophet among you, I the LORD make myself known to him in a vision, I speak with him in a dream. 7* Not so with my servant Moses; he is entrusted with all my house. 8* With him I speak mouth to mouth, clearly, and not in dark speech; and he beholds the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?" 9 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against them, and he departed; 10 and when the cloud removed from over the tent, behold, Miriam was leprous, as white as snow. And Aaron turned towards Miriam, and behold, she was leprous. 11 And Aaron said to Moses, "Oh, my lord, do not* punish us because we have done foolishly and have sinned. 12 Let her not be as one dead, of whom the flesh is half consumed when he comes out of his mother's womb." 13 And Moses cried to the LORD, "Heal her, O God, I beseech thee." 14 But the LORD said to Moses, "If her father had but spit in her face, should she not be shamed seven days? Let her be shut up outside the camp seven days, and after that she may be brought in again." 15 So Miriam was shut up outside the camp seven days; and the people did not set out on the march till Miriam was brought in again. 16 After that the people set out from Hazeroth, and encamped in the wilderness of Paran."
Notice that Aaron confesses his sin DIRECTLY TO Moses and not to God. Then Moses asks God to forgive them. Then the punishment is rendered ACCORDING to the law set by God, Himself.
No going around it. We are to confess our sins to a representative of God, who stands in His place, and we are to seek a penance.
Hey! I'm gonna have to use that one!
DeleteAnd here is one that demonstrates one of the elements pertaining to the Doctrine of Reconciliation - Examination of Conscience
Delete2 Corinthians 1* This is the third time I am coming to you. Any charge must be sustained by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 2 I warned those who sinned before and all the others, and I warn them now while absent, as I did when present on my second visit, that if I come again I will not spare them-- 3 since you desire proof that Christ is speaking in me. He is not weak in dealing with you, but is powerful in you. 4* For he was crucified in weakness, but lives by the power of God. For we are weak in him, but in dealing with you we shall live with him by the power of God. 5 EXAMINE YOURSELFS, to see whether you are holding to your faith. Test yourselves. Do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless indeed you fail to meet the test! 6 I hope you will find out that we have not failed. 7 But we pray God that you may not do wrong--not that we may appear to have met the test, but that you may do what is right, though we may seem to have failed. 8 For we cannot do anything against the truth, but only for the truth. 9 For we are glad when we are weak and you are strong. What we pray for is your improvement. 10* I write this while I am away from you, in order that when I come I may not have to be severe in my use of the authority which the Lord has given me for building up and not for tearing down. 11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Mend your ways, heed my appeal, agree with one another, live in peace, and the God of love and peace will be with you. 12* Greet one another with a holy kiss. 13* All the saints greet you. 14* The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of * the Holy Spirit be with you all.
Here is St. Paul telling the members of the Church at Corinth to examine their minds to see if they have sinned and then warns them of HIS POWER TO ENACT THE PUNISHMENT OF CHRIST through the authority given to him.
It doesn't get much clearer folks!
God Bless
That is really good. St. Paul is warning that the Church, which he represents, has authority to discipline them in order to build up the Church:
DeleteThe pertinent words are these:
9 For we are glad when we are weak and you are strong. What we pray for is your improvement. 10* I write this while I am away from you, in order that when I come I may not have to be severe in my use of the authority which the Lord has given me for building up and not for tearing down.
Good job!
Thanks! And there are several more in other Epistles and Letters of the Apostles, so I don't know why pro-testants don't see them...unless of course it's because they don't WANT to see them.
DeleteThat's a mystery to me, also. You may be unto something about them not "wanting" to see them since they contradict their presuppositions.
Delete