Saturday, February 14, 2015

Scripture shows that prayer simply means petition


Cal:
Yes in fact I think it was your question to someone in the brown scapular thread with no answer that prompted this. So actually I thank you for the inspiration of asking it in the first place. I just added on a bit 
Good, then I can kill two birds with one stone.

Cal:
I saw on another thread someone asked a Catholic to explain Phil4:6 in regards to prayer and there was no response. Because of that, I have started this thread.
Ok.

To whom does God tell us to direct our prayers to in heaven?
Scriptures tell us:
Philippians 4:6
King James Version (KJV)
Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
All our prayers are to God. They may be sent indirectly by our advocates. For instance, I might ask my mother to pray for me or I might ask for prayers from Christians through an ad in the Newspaper or through a message in the email or on a forum in the internet. Or I might ask my brethren who walk on Mt. Sion:

Hebrews 12:22
King James Version (KJV)22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 
Perhaps YOU have not come unto Mount Sion yet? Is that what you are admitting? And therefore have no brethren there. But we do, we stepped unto Mount Sion when we were Baptized.
Matthew 6:9
King James Version (KJV)
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
We pray that way as well. But I don't see Jesus forbidding us to pray through others. In fact, it is Jesus who said:

Matthew 10:41
King James Version (KJV)41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.

Notice that Jesus did not say, "in my name" but in the name of a Prophet and in the name of a righteous man. Therefore, we can pray in the name of the Saints.

Notice that neither scripture specifies "living saints" or "Mary" in heaven. It says God in heaven.
Notice that neither Scripture forbids living saints or Mary in heaven.

It is clear that once a body is dead and supposedly their spirit is in heaven, we are STILL not to pray to them as scriptures does not mention it.  Scriptures tell us that all prayers to heaven are to be directed to God alone.
"And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said to me, "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy," (Rev. 19:10).
Very good. But when that happened on earth, the Angel said nothing:
Joshua 5:14

King James Version (KJV)

14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the Lord am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant?

And in the New Testament the tables are turned when an Angel SALUTES a human. That human is Mary.


It is clear that prayer is always offered to God, not to a created thing.
Look again.  
Genesis 12:13
Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee.

Genesis 13:8
And Abram said unto Lot, Let there be no strife, I pray thee, between me and thee, and between my herdmen and thy herdmen; for we be brethren.

Genesis 19:7
And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.

Genesis 20:7
Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that are thine.



All religions view prayer as an act of worship to their god(s)
I don't know about "all" religions. But I know that the Catholic and Orthodox pray to the Saints and we do not worship them.


since they contain petitions, confession of sin, requests of intercession, etc., things which are received and answered by God, not by created things

In your false theology.

However, it is evident from Scripture that God gives much more authority to the Saints than you imagine;

Luke 16:24
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Note that the Rich Man did not direct his prayer directly to God. And note that Father Abraham was not bothered by that fact:

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

There is no admonition there and no reprimand to pray directly to the Father in Heaven.

Also, prayer is not the same thing as talking to someone face-to-face.
Yeah, it can be. Depending on the context of the prayer. You guys really ought to invest in dictionaries:

World English Dictionary
prayer 1 (prɛə)
— n
1.a. a personal communication or petition addressed to a deity,esp in the form of supplication, adoration, praise, contrition,or thanksgiving
b. any other form of spiritual communion with a deity
2.similar personal communication that does not involveadoration, addressed to beings venerated as being closelyassociated with a deity, such as angels or saints
3.the practice of praying: prayer is our solution to humanproblems
4.often plural ) a form of devotion, either public or private,spent mainly or wholly praying: morning prayers
5.capital when part of a recognized name ) a form of wordsused in praying: the Lord's Prayer
6.an object or benefit prayed for
7.an earnest request, petition, or entreaty
8.law a request contained in a petition to a court for the reliefsought by the petitioner
9.slang chance or hope: she doesn't have a prayer of gettingmarried

Look at definitions #7 and 8. Apparently, your dictionaries have shortchanged you guys. You do the same with the definition of Church.


Prayer is a humble petition to the Lord
It can be that as well. Def #1

and not to a friend who's in the same room with you or on the other end of the phone
It can be that as well. Def #7

-- or in heaven.
Def #2

Prayer is offered to God, never to any created thing.
Apparently that is the Protestant definition. We live in the real world where words have more than one meaning.

To do so is to offer worship that should only be directed to God, which is idolatry.
We don't do that. We only worship God.

Prayer should be offered only to God,
Adoration should be offered only to God. Scripture shows that prayer simply means petition and can be directed at anyone at anytime.

and the Roman Catholic Church needs to repent of its false and idolatrous practice of praying to the saints.
I'd say you need to repent of that false accusation.
(last paragraph from CARM)
Okeedoke. Then it is Carm's error.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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