#818 cont'd From "The Immaculate Conception in Scripture", pg 9
ED SAYS, "There are two kinds of tongues. Tongues that we initiate to edify ourselves by praying in the Holy Spirit (1Cor.14:2-4) , and tongues, which God does the initiating by choosing a person in a worship service and speaks through that person, to get His message to them, and most of the time, uses another person to interpret it. That's what Paul means, "do we all speak in tongues? do all interpret?" ---- By the way, that's how God led the early church (1Cor.14:26).
You need to read the lives of the Saints. It is in the Saints that all the gifts of the Holy Spirit are shown in their fullness. All of you who contradict Scripture while speaking in tongues, are simply showing that you are guided by another spirit:
2 Corinthians 11:14 Yet I am not surprised! Satan can change himself into an angel of light, 15 so it is no wonder his servants can do it too, and seem like godly ministers. In the end they will get every bit of punishment their wicked deeds deserve.
There wasn't any need for apostolic succession etc..
There wasn't any need for Scripture, either. Nor for men, even. But God does His will because it is His good pleasure. Therefore, He established a Church upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets and continues to send workers to His field, even today.
God's representatives on earth is the Holy Spirit and the Bible.
The Bible says that God's representatives on earth are men of the Church:
2 Corinthians 5:20Living Bible (TLB)
20 We are Christ’s ambassadors. God is using us to speak to you: we beg you, as though Christ himself were here pleading with you, receive the love he offers you—be reconciled to God.
In the Old Testament God led the Jews through the Holy Spirited prophets and His Word.
Get a clue. That is the shadow of the New Testament. Today, He guides Christians through the Holy Spirited priests in His Church and His Word in Tradition and Scripture.
ED SAYS, "My advise to you, is, you better take heed to what you are saying, because there is NO SCRIPTURE, indicating that the Holy Spirit is being outpoured by water baptism. NONE!
I've already shown you several times. Read above.
You try to make it to be so by quoting (Acts 2:38) or (1Pet. 3:21) but in both cases, baptism does NOT stand alone, they both include belief in Christ.
Duh! Who said that Baptism stands alone?
There is NO SCRIPTURE in the Bible that indicates that anyone received the Holy Spirit by water baptized by its self. NONE!
Are you just now understanding that?
ED SAYS, "Your full of it! What do you think my pastor and his hand picked Bible instructors do?
You submit to them and confess your sins to them? And you acknowledge that they beseech you in God's stead and pray for you in place of Christ?
2 Corinthians 5:20 We are Christ’s ambassadors. God is using us to speak to you: ....
If you believe this, then why do you reject the Sacrament of penance (Confession)?
And they are sober when they teach and watch over us. My cousin once, invited me to a Catholic men's dinner. Present, were all the most notorious gamblers, and hoods of the town.
Matthew 9:10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples. 11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
While there, I ran into Tom, one of my Catholic grade school buddies, he was very proud of one of the priest who was so drunk, that he had to lean against the wall to hold him upright. Tom, said to me, "He's one of us Ed, he drinks somewhat too, like us. Is that what you mean by watching over your souls?
No. Here's what I mean:
John 20:23Living Bible (TLB)
23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, they are forgiven. If you refuse to forgive them, they are unforgiven.”
ED SAID, "He (H.S.) came into my life, simply by my believing in what Jesus did for me on the cross.
If the Holy Spirit had come into your life, you would be Catholic. That is not the Holy Spirit which is leading you against Christ and His Church.
I was later baptized in a lake to show my repentance and to fulfill the act of righteousness as Jesus tells us too (Mat.3:15) (Mat.21:32).
You were baptized in a lake to fool you into believing that you were repenting. But it is not repentance to remain against the Institution which Jesus Christ established to lead you to Him:
Matthew 18:17 If he still refuses to listen, then take your case to the church, and if the church’s verdict favors you, but he won’t accept it, then the church should excommunicate him.[a]
ED SAYS, "Juan, you are an embarrassment to some of the fine Catholics on this blog. Do you see the above Scripture that I had posted (Mat.21:32) this is what Jesus said, "John came to you to show you righteousness, (baptism)
First, that is not the verse we were discussing. Here is that verse:
Matthew 3:13-15Living Bible (TLB)
13 Then Jesus went from Galilee to the Jordan River to be baptized there by John. 14 John didn’t want to do it. “This isn’t proper,” he said. “I am the one who needs to be baptized by you.” 15 But Jesus said, “Please do it, for I must do all that is right.”[a] So then John baptized him.
Notice how Jesus does it to fulfill righteousness. Whereas, we do it to be washed of sins. Jesus had not sins which needed to be washed.
Second, you have again added words to the Scripture, Matt 21:32, even in your bible, says:
Matthew 21:32Living Bible (TLB)
32 For John the Baptist told you to repent and turn to God, and you wouldn’t, while very evil men and prostitutes did. And even when you saw this happening, you refused to repent, and so you couldn’t believe.
Therefore, the way of righteousness for us, is repentance. But Christ had no sins from which to repent.
1 Peter 2:22Living Bible (TLB)
22 He never sinned, never told a lie,
(Mat.21:32) this is what Jesus said, "John came to you to show you righteousness, (baptism) and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him." ----- I know that Jesus was sinless, and there wasn't any need for Him to repent, but He got water baptized in order to set an example to show us what we must do to repent.
Well now you're getting warm. However, Jesus also said:
Mark 16:16Living Bible (TLB)
16 Those who believe and are baptized will be saved. But those who refuse to believe will be condemned.
An act of righteousness, that's what the above Scriptures mean.
You already acknowledged that I am correct when you said:
I know that Jesus was sinless, and there wasn't any need for Him to repent
I know that Jesus was sinless, and there wasn't any need for Him to repent
ED SAYS, "JUAN, do you realize what you just said,
I'm quoting Scripture, (Rom.10:17) "Faith comes by hearing the message."
So now you know more that God, who wrote those words???"
Ed! That's what I said. I said that faith comes before Baptism. I didn't say that faith comes before hearing the message. Scripture says:
Romans 10:14Living Bible (TLB)
14 But how shall they ask him to save them unless they believe in him? And how can they believe in him if they have never heard about him? And how can they hear about him unless someone tells them?
Yet, your words, "Faith comes before Baptism." which is nowhere to be found in the Bible.
Its everywhere in Scripture, Ed. Why would anyone who does not believe in Christ want to be baptized?
JUAN SAYS, "You're not a Jehovah. Then why did you mention a Kingdom hall?
ED SAYS, "So according to your cock-eyed logic, anytime someone mentions "Kingdom hall," he then, automatically becomes a Jehovah's Witness. Juan, do you know what this stands for (?<*&^%$#??)
I don't care.
ED SAYS, "20 years??? It can't be! By what you post and your abuse of the Scriptures, honestly! I thought at most you were between 8 and 10 years old, by calling me a liar etc. when you had no reason whatsoever to do so.
Ed, I said that you lied because you posted a lie.
You see Juan, you are spitting in God's face when you twist the Scriptures to your own likings, and make dishonest statements such as, "no one can know that he/she has the Holy Spirit without being water baptized." That kind of a statement is straight from the devil's mouth. As I have proved you WRONG by the Cornelius' episode. I have every right to go after you in the manner as I do, since you appear to be one of Wolves that Paul cautioned us about (Acts 20:29).
You have proved that you are wrong by all which you have said here.
One does NOT get the Holy Spirit by water baptism,
Scripture says so. You are merely denying Scripture.
that's why you can't understand me, and that's why you abuse Scripture to your own likings. According to (1Cor.2:14) "The man without the SPIRIT does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to Him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned."
That describes you, Ed.
That's why you erroneously say, that unless a person is water baptized he/she wouldn't know that they have the Holy Spirit. Not only is that FALSE according to the Scriptures, but it's laughable to those people who know that they have the Holy Spirit by the change in their lives (2Cor.5:17) and by speaking in tongues (Mark 16:17). What happened to you when you got water baptized, is that you got wet and deceived.
No, Ed. It is you who are deceived. As has been proven over and over.
P.S. Matthew, don't go away too far, we had a very good debate going, until Juan, came busting in. I'm not planning on spending too much more time with him.
You goin' somewhere?