Pray! : Hebrews 12

Wednesday, January 28, 2015

Hebrews 12

De Maria said,

November 29, 2014 at 2:05 am

I hope I’m not intruding, but Heb 12 is one of my favorite chapters and I couldn’t resist.

Page asked the question:

What do you think? Does this passage (i.e. 12:26-29) give us information about a future event involving the material universe, or is it conveying the earth-and-heaven-shattering nature of the already-accomplished work of Christ?

I understand it light of the preceding passages. It is both speaking of our present state and eschatological, warning us of the coming Judgment.

In Ch. 11, St. Paul is speaking about the elect of the OT, who, by faith accomplished the will of God and were saved.

1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

And he says that these who have fallen are now alive and are aware of what we are doing. He uses the term “witness” in a double entendre. They are both aware of us and we are aware of what they did.

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Therefore, because we are being watched by those who went before us and because they emulated our Saviour in their suffering and death in order to rise again, we need to do the same.

As the Scripture says elsewhere:
Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

And then, in that long discourse, he extolls the value of suffering. Because as the Scripture elsewhere says:

And also:
1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

1 Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;

13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.

14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

And then he admonishes that all men should keep peace one with another and seek holiness. Now, to my mind, holiness is sought by keeping the commandments. Because transgression of the Law is sinfulness:

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

And those who break the commandments will not inherit the Kingdom of God:
1 Corinthians 6:8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren. 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Now, he seems to break into some other subject, but it is really, just an aside. He wants to compare the OT to the NT and the reason will be clear afterwards.

18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,

19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:

20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:

21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:)

In the OT, he says, the Jews could not even approach the mountain in which God made His abode. They couldn’t even touch it on penalty of death.

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

But in the NT, not only do we touch the mountain but we walk amongst the Saints.

So, to my understanding, he is saying, “look at the gift you’ve received. The Jews suffered their entire lives and then died to receive this. And then they had to wait, some waited thousands of years to receive what you have received in Baptism. (See Heb 11:39).

25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

Now begin the warnings which take me back to what he said in Heb 10:25-31

Hebrews 10:25-31King James Version (KJV)

25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

God is not our toy that we should take for granted the great gift He has given us. That pretty much sums up the rest of the chapter.

26 Whose voice then shook the earth:

In the OT, He spoke from the mountain and shook the earth.

Exodus 19:18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.

but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

Joel 3:16 The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

29 For our God is a consuming fire.

God is no one’s play thing:
2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.
Jason Loh said,

November 30, 2014 at 10:05 am

That’s the thing though … you, De Maria read “for our God is a consuming fire” as referring to the future judgment where a plain and natural reading simply shows that God is the present judge.

That is, there is only one judgment and that same judgment is now, even now, apocalypse, that is to say, revealed. There is no escape. You’re reading a pagan interpretation into scripture.

The judgment is brought forward from the future and is being executed in the present here and now.

Romans 1 says precisely the same thing, namely that “The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness …”

God’s mercy therefore is not giving time and space for sinners to cooperate with grace in order to then to have that opportunity to be finally justified …

That is a pagan notion …

But God’s mercy is active, living and real and concrete as much as his judgment is … the only difference being that mercy triumphs over judgment …

James 2: 13 – “Mercy triumphs over judgment.”

See how biblical the gospel of the Reformation is, De Maria and how, ultimately speaking, pagan is the Roman gospel?
Jason Loh said,

November 30, 2014 at 10:19 am

Therefore … there is no two justifications but only one …

The one judgment and justification that are brought forward from the future …

This is the meaning of eschatology …

The future becomes present — the past becomes present —

Hence this is also the meaning pre-destination — election apart and against the law … according to the gospel alone … where one’s future is already decided in the here and now by the “in-breaking” from a different or another age or dimension or existence …

And …

This is why in justification (as opposed to vocation), the Christian is entirely passive — s/he doesn’t move but is being “moved” by being destroyed and re-created anew. That is, by having his/ her history re-written …

Which means God is entirely sovereign whether as Judge or Saviour …

Which means therefore that those whom God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

That is to say, with respect to the Christian, foreknowledge and predestination are synonymous …

Which is to simply repeat the truth that justification (election, calling sanctification, glorification) can only be by faith alone … trust in the God Who does all in all …
Kevin Failoni said,

November 30, 2014 at 2:09 pm

Well said Jason, I concur.
Vincent said,

November 30, 2014 at 3:24 pm

Jason hit me up at my email. I have a qoute to show you.
Vincent said,

November 30, 2014 at 3:26 pm

Jason what would you say about the following quote? Is it heretical at least by patristic standards?

Finally, a word on the passage of the final judgement, that describes the second coming of the Lord, when He will judge all humans, living and dead (cf. Mt 25:31-46). The image used by the Evangelist is that of the Shepherd separating sheep from goats. On the right are those who acted according to the will of God, helping their neighbor who was hungry, thirsty, stranger, naked, sick, imprisoned, thus following the Lord himself; while on the left are those who haven’t come to the aid of their neighbour. This tells us that we will be judged by God on charity, on how we loved him in our brothers, especially the weakest and neediest. Of course, we must always keep in mind that we are justified, we are saved by grace, by an act of God’s gratuitous love which always precedes us; we alone can do nothing. Faith is first of all a gift that we have received. But to bear fruit, God’s grace always requires our openness, our free and concrete response. Christ comes to bring us the mercy of God who saves. We are asked to trust him, to match the gift of his love with a good life, with actions animated by faith and love.

Dear brothers and sisters, may we never be afraid to look to the final judgment; may it push us rather to live better lives. God gives us with mercy and patience this time so that we may learn every day to recognize him in the poor and in the little ones, may we strive for good and we are vigilant in prayer and love. May the Lord, at the end of our existence and history, may recognize us as good and faithful servants. Thank you!
roberty bob said,

November 30, 2014 at 6:25 pm

in reply to #18 . . . Jason . . .

” . . . in justification (as opposed to vocation), the Christian is entirely passive . . . .” — Jason

So, you are saying that the faith by which one is justified is a passive faith; I guess that would be a faith that is not active in responding to the Gospel. God just sort of overpowers the person by His amazing grace so that he is “moved” in a passive sort of way into being right with God.

However, when the Lord calls you to serve Him, then your active faith kicks into gear and you get going . . . serving, obeying, etc.

I’m flabbergasted! Where in the Bible do I find faith defined in passive terms? I’m unacquainted with that concept unless it falls along the lines of resting in the Lord, being still, waiting, and so forth. It strikes me that those who were commended for their faith in Hebrews 11 (and other places) were anything but passive!
roberty bob said,

November 30, 2014 at 6:49 pm

in reply to #21 . . . Vincent . . .

The Matthew 25:31-46 pericope is one more way for the Good Shepherd to say that his sheep hear his voice and follow his lead.

At the Last Day — the Final Judgement — the sheep will be separated from the goat. The Good Shepherd will recognize his sheep by the good deeds they had done [unknowingly] unto Christ through serving and loving those in need; these acts of loving kindness had been utterly neglected by the goats.

So, it is true. We will all appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ to account for the deeds that were wrought during the course of our respective lifetimes. The evidence will be brought forward, and all deeds — whether good or evil — will be made manifest.

If you want to talk about the faith of those who are justified by faith [alone?], then you will have to talk about what are the evidences of such a faith on that Great Day because such faith will be seen as that which kept busy working through love.
De Maria said,

November 30, 2014 at 10:13 pm

Jason Loh said,
November 30, 2014 at 10:05 am

That’s the thing though … you, De Maria read “for our God is a consuming fire” as referring to the future judgment where a plain and natural reading simply shows that God is the present judge.

What is verse 25 about?

25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

Is he speaking of a present or future judgement?

That is, there is only one judgment and that same judgment is now, even now, apocalypse, that is to say, revealed. There is no escape.

To whose scriptures do you refer? Christian Scriptures make reference to a future Judgment:

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

You’re reading a pagan interpretation into scripture.

That’s an accusation which needs some proof.

The judgment is brought forward from the future and is being executed in the present here and now.

1. That is actually true, but it happens in the Sacraments.
2. But if you believe this, then you are admitting that justification is a process that continues until the day of Judgement. Because we believe that God judges us day by day and we are justified day by day.

2 Corinthians 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

Romans 1 says precisely the same thing, namely that “The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness …”

God’s mercy therefore is not giving time and space for sinners to cooperate with grace in order to then to have that opportunity to be finally justified …

That is a pagan notion …

Scripture says that God is being very patient:
2 Peter 3:9King James Version (KJV)

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

2 Peter 3:9New International Version (NIV)

9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness.Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

This seems like a very Christian Doctrine, not pagan at all.

But God’s mercy is active, living and real and concrete as much as his judgment is … the only difference being that mercy triumphs over judgment …

James 2: 13 – “Mercy triumphs over judgment.”

See how biblical the gospel of the Reformation is,

On the contrary, you seem to be contradicting Scripture with every sentence.

De Maria and how, ultimately speaking, pagan is the Roman gospel?

The Catholic Gospel is the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
De Maria said,

November 30, 2014 at 10:18 pm

Jason Loh said,
November 30, 2014 at 10:19 am

Therefore … there is no two justifications but only one …

The one judgment and justification that are brought forward from the future …

Show me from Scripture. Because in Scripture, there is no bringing forward. St. Paul says that all will stand before the Judgment seat of Christ to be judged for what they did in the body.

2 Corinthians 5:10King James Version (KJV)

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

This is the meaning of eschatology …

That must be your own personal definition:

Eschatology i/ˌɛskəˈtɒlədʒi/ is a part of theology concerned with what are believed to be the final events of history, or the ultimate destiny of humanity. This concept is commonly referred to as the “end of the world” or “end time”.

The future becomes present — the past becomes present —

Hence this is also the meaning pre-destination — election apart and against the law … according to the gospel alone … where one’s future is already decided in the here and now by the “in-breaking” from a different or another age or dimension or existence …

And …

This is why in justification (as opposed to vocation), the Christian is entirely passive — s/he doesn’t move but is being “moved” by being destroyed and re-created anew. That is, by having his/ her history re-written …

Which means God is entirely sovereign whether as Judge or Saviour …

Which means therefore that those whom God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

That is to say, with respect to the Christian, foreknowledge and predestination are synonymous …

Which is to simply repeat the truth that justification (election, calling sanctification, glorification) can only be by faith alone … trust in the God Who does all in all …

You’re making a lot of assertions with no support from Scripture. Show me from Scripture.
De Maria said,

November 30, 2014 at 10:26 pm

In discussing the final Judgment, I think we’ve left behind Heb 12. Because it isn’t talking about the final Judgment. But about the here and now. The only tangential mention of the final Judgment, in the end of the chapter is to warn us that if we, Christians, are not grateful for the wonderful gift which God has given us in the Sacraments, the gift of eternal life which allows us to walk amidst the Saints in the here and now, then we will anger the One whose voice shook the earth and:

25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

Therefore, let us serve God and do good to our fellow man:
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Because it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God (Hebrews 10:31).
Kevin Failoni said,

November 30, 2014 at 11:38 pm

Vincent, those quotes are descriptive of someone who has saving faith, not prescriptive. We are saved ever and always by faith alone in Christ alone apart form works or anything coming from ourselves. We are saved UNTO good works Ephesians 2:10.
Jason Loh said,

December 1, 2014 at 8:45 am

Vincent,

I cannot say it better than Kevin.

We are not made worthy by our faith, by our repentance, by our good works.

We are only made worthy by God’s justification alone. We are made worthy UNTO good works.

The quotes are not heretical but poorly expressed …

Whoever preached it has to re-set and start all over again …

It is God’s judgment according to the law and justification apart from the law that will justify us … nothing we do will ever exonerate or acquit or justify us … how can it be? Isn’t that SELF-justification?

The answer by the sheep was that they weren’t aware that they were doing good works and that Christ was “served” and “ministered” in those people served and ministered …

That should be our response … we weren’t aware … at all. Period.

This is the meaning to rely wholly on the mercy of God …

The parable of the Pharisee and the publican … this is the meaning of TRUST in the mercy of God … that God is merciful despite our sinfulness …

This is what the gospel is … about … is for …

Contrary to the quotes, we will NOT be judged by our charity … This is simply because the law claims not only our works but our entire person …

We will be judged by the law IN LIGHT OF THE gospel that exposes who we are … curved in ourselves … self-centered …that will be the judgment …

For the elect, judgment by the law that claims our whole selves will not be the final word …

Justification is wholly the WORD of God pronounced upon us … a decree … a verdict (effective one) … nothing else matters …
Jason Loh said,

December 1, 2014 at 9:33 am

Mercy is not God withholding judgment which then becomes the time and space — the opportunity — for the sinner to repent and believe and do goo works …

That’s a pagan notion …

God is active and living and ever-present … He is always judging … hardening hearts … recall Pharaoh in Romans 9 … that’s the whole point, you see …

Mercy is God actually, concretely, really here and now in the living present giving Himself over to the sinner in the proclamation of the gospel in word and sacraments …

Judgment is apocalypse, revealed … NOW in the preaching of the law against all unrighteousness … we are literally caught in the act …

The CCC asks us to meditate on the Cross … indeed it is not just the Jews and Romans but we ourselves who drove those nails into Christ … that is our judgment …

The CCC is wrong and heretical to speak of two justifications … just like some Protestants are such as NT Wright, FVs, and so on are wrong …

There is only ONE judgment …and you are either hardened and thus die the everlasting death or justified “simultaneously” by the gospel that resurrects bare bones to everlasting life (to employ the Ezekiel imagery) …

You cannot separate creation from redemption … You cannot separate spiritual from physical life … if one thing the patristics taught is that you can’t …

If God is omnipotent is creation, He too is omnipotent in redemption … for creation IS redemption … creation is destroyed to be re-created and persons or humans are them “microcosms” that is the representative and representation one and the same of creation …
Jason Loh said,

December 1, 2014 at 9:33 am

ApocalyseD …
Vincent said,

December 1, 2014 at 11:04 am

I am glad you think the quotes are not completely heretical. You would be surprised it came from Pope Francis. Would it be fair to say that our justification that happens once in this live is the same as the one at the end of the world and judgement day?
Vincent said,

December 1, 2014 at 11:07 am

So in other words we are justified by faith alone now and also at the end of the world. Is that what you are getting at?
roberty bob said,

December 1, 2014 at 11:22 am

#29 Jason . . .

You believe that God in His mercy giving sinners time and opportunity to repent of their sins, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and do good works is a pagan notion?

What do you want sinners to not do?

Do you want them to not repent of their sins?
Do you want them to not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ?
Do you want them to not do good works?

I think that you want sinners to not do good works because once they set out to do them, the knowledge of having done them will go to their head and they will get all puffed up with pride believing that they have suddenly made themselves worthy of the gift of God. If they do any good works at all, they will have no awareness of having done them.

I think that you want to put good works in a different category than repentance and faith. You don’t want these two good guys associated with the prime suspect for self-justification.
Kevin Failoni said,

December 1, 2014 at 12:32 pm

Reed, if I can invite all readers to listen to a message by John MacArthur called ” Is Roman Catholicism a false gospel” its on youtube, and really good, Thx
Kevin Failoni said,

December 1, 2014 at 12:40 pm

Roberty bob, you know good and well Jason is speaking of justification. Our works are our resonable service of worship. They are for our neighbor, they dont merit our salvation. Paul says not that of yourselves, not of works. He says if by works, no longer by grace. Rome says the exact opposite. ” As a reward to their merits and good works, to be faithfully given to their good works” , ” to the one who works well to the end. The antithesis in justification for Paul is between hearing by faith and works, not between grace enabled works and law. Believe gospel, obey law. Dont conflate the two.
Kevin Failoni said,

December 1, 2014 at 12:46 pm

Vincent said ” so iow we are justified by faith now and at the end of the world” Bingo! Thats why its called the good news of the gospel. The reasonfaith alone justifies is because it receives Christ our righteouness and brings our justification to our heart, apart from works. God justifies thr UNGODLY by faith alone. In a positional sense we are no less righteous today than at the end. He is our perfect righteousness. Amen!
roberty bob said,

December 1, 2014 at 1:57 pm

Does the Quote of the Pope at #21 say that our justification is based on our good works and not on God’s grace?

I am hearing you, Kevin #35, charging the Church of Rome of proclaiming a false gospel.

Is Pope Francis, as quoted at #21, proclaiming a false gospel? If so, where does he go wrong?
Kevin Failoni said,

December 1, 2014 at 4:04 pm

Robery bob, you sound surprised that Reformed think Rome preaches a false gospel. The ignorance of the Protestant church is only surpassed by its lack of courage. And the more recent efforts to hold hands and sing kumbaya with Rome as if just a few minor details separate us spits on the Reformers and all those who lost their life to Catholic swords. It is amazing that Protestants actually believe Rome’s lie that the first 1500 years of the church was Roman Catholic. It wasnt. Tim Kauffman is one of the few to draw the distinction. Rome is still antichrist in our confessions. Its not a different denomination, its another religion. I have no problem telling you I love you in Christ’ love and despise your doctrines which have no scriptual basis. K
Kevin Failoni said,

December 1, 2014 at 4:14 pm

Roberty bob, the Pope’s words are heretical because he is spitting out the Catholic gospel. Here is where the medieval church got it way wrong. Christ didnt come to help us accumulate the righteouness we need for heaven, He lived the law in our place and fulfilled all righteouness. We are bad , real bad, but He was good, and its hard to keep a good man down. We dont derive our righteousness from Him, He is our righteousness. Tetelestai, it is finished. We accept this free grace by faith alone. Its a gift. Its all mercy. So the Pope is wrong when he speaks as if its partially by grace and partially by works, or charity. ” if its by works, grace is no longer grace.
Vincent said,

December 1, 2014 at 6:28 pm

Kevin, Jason himself does not believe the Pope’s words where heretical just poorly worded.
Kevin Failoni said,

December 1, 2014 at 7:37 pm

Vincent. The Pope said ” this tells us we will be judged on charity” This is Catholic doctrine. It is contra gospel. Therefore its heresy. But Jason can speak for himself. But if I have understood Jason’s position, I would say he denies vociferous ly being justified by anything but faith alone in Christ alone. When Jesus said my sheep hear my voice, and all that the father has given me. We are chosen like Jacob before we have done anything good or bad Romans 9, so justification by our obedience or love is impossible. Who can bring a charge against God’s elect, it is God who justifies. We cannot seek our justification in anyway by ourdoing or loving. My view after 35vyears of bible study. Jonah ” Salvation is from the Lord. Arent you glad for his mercy and grace Vincent, I am. God bless.
De Maria said,

December 1, 2014 at 7:56 pm

Kevin Failoni said,
November 30, 2014 at 11:38 pm

Vincent, those quotes are descriptive of someone who has saving faith, not prescriptive.

You keep saying that Kevin. But Matt 25:31-46 describes what happens to people who do not do the works of mercy and what happens to people who do. Therefore, they prescribe, to the wise man, the course of action he should take if he wants to be saved.

We are saved ever and always by faith alone in Christ alone apart form works or anything coming from ourselves. We are saved UNTO good works Ephesians 2:10.

Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
De Maria said,

December 1, 2014 at 8:08 pm

Jason asks, #28,

It is God’s judgment according to the law and justification apart from the law that will justify us …

That sounds like Catholic Teaching.

Those who keep the Law of Commandments will be justified by God apart from the Law in the Sacraments.

In other words, God judges us according to the Commandments. If we keep the Commandments, then He we are justified in His eyes:

Romans 2:13King James Version (KJV)

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

nothing we do will ever exonerate or acquit or justify us …

True. But unless we repent of our sins and keep the Commandments, God won’t save us:

1 Corinthians 6:8-10King James Version (KJV)

8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

how can it be? Isn’t that SELF-justification?

Self justification is what Protestants do when they judge themselves saved before the Judgement of Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 4:4-5King James Version (KJV)

4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
Kevin Failoni said,

December 1, 2014 at 8:18 pm

DeMaria, you keep quoting Romans 2:13 so I am going to surmize you are being justified by law. You might want to read Galatians 3:10 cursed is anyone who does not abide in all things of the law. Get busy it requires perfection. Give up blogging bro. Mathew 25 describes 2 types of people, those united to Christ by faith and those who arent. In no way is this teaching we merit our justification. Remember where Paul got his gospel, directly from Jesus. And Paul says NO works in justification. This is descriptive of sheep and goats.
De Maria said,

December 1, 2014 at 8:28 pm

Jason also said, #28,

Contrary to the quotes, we will NOT be judged by our charity …

This is simply because the law claims not only our works but our entire person …

We will be judged by the law IN LIGHT OF THE gospel that exposes who we are … curved in ourselves … self-centered …that will be the judgment …

For the elect, judgment by the law that claims our whole selves will not be the final word …

Justification is wholly the WORD of God pronounced upon us … a decree … a verdict (effective one) … nothing else matters …

Can you produce any substantiation of these claims from Scripture? Because Scripture explicitly says:

1 John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

John 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

And of course, Matt 25:31-46, which says that we love Jesus when we love our neighbor. As it says also in another verse:

1 John 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17 But whoso hath this world’s good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? 18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
paigebritton said,

December 1, 2014 at 8:56 pm

Hey, y’all lost the point of the thread somewhere back there.

The parts about judgment brought forward were interesting, though. I definitely think the writer to the Hebrews speaks in this letter of a second coming and a final judgment, though not necessarily in the “shaking” section. Though maybe there, too.

(Maybe whichever one of you mentioned this meant that for Christian believers, the final judgment has already been pronounced? That sounds soundly Reformed. Hope you didn’t mean there isn’t a Judgment Day pending, though. Don’t think Scripture bears that version out.)
De Maria said,

December 1, 2014 at 9:23 pm

Jason Loh said,
December 1, 2014 at 9:33 am

Mercy is not God withholding judgment which then becomes the time and space — the opportunity — for the sinner to repent and believe and do goo works …

That’s a pagan notion …

So you say. But Scripture says:

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God is active and living and ever-present … He is always judging … hardening hearts … recall Pharaoh in Romans 9 … that’s the whole point, you see …

He is always judging. But He is not always hardening hearts. As St. Peter says, He is mostly waiting for us to repent. He only hardens the hearts of those who have first hardened their heart against Him. Remember Pharao? Before God hardened his heart, Pharao had already made an idol of himself. And God permitted him to continue in his sin to the end. As Scripture says elsewhere:

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

That is what happened to Pharao. He became reprobate so God appointed him to hell by hardening his heart in sin.

Mercy is God actually, concretely, really here and now in the living present giving Himself over to the sinner in the proclamation of the gospel in word and sacraments …

Agreed.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Judgment is apocalypse, revealed … NOW in the preaching of the law against all unrighteousness … we are literally caught in the act …

The CCC asks us to meditate on the Cross … indeed it is not just the Jews and Romans but we ourselves who drove those nails into Christ

True.

… that is our judgment …

Not if we repent of our sins and turn to Him who died for us and rose again.

The CCC is wrong and heretical to speak of two justifications …

I’m not sure what you’re talking about there. The Catholic Church doesn’t put a limit on justifications. As many times as we sin, if we turn back to God and repent, we are confident that He will justify us. As the Scripture says:

2 Corinthians 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

just like some Protestants are such as NT Wright, FVs, and so on are wrong …

There is only ONE judgment …and you are either hardened and thus die the everlasting death…

In one verse, Scripture speaks of one death and then the judgment.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

But, in another verse, Scripture mentions a second death:

Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

So, for some, there is more than one death.

In addition, in many verses, Scripture says that Christ will judge. But in one verse, Scripture says that the Church will judge even the Angels:

1 Corinthians 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

These verses can be reconciled to show that there will indeed be at least two judgements. The first will be the Judgment of the nations by the Church:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:

The second will be the Judgment or sentencing all mankind, by God.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

or justified “simultaneously” by the gospel that resurrects bare bones to everlasting life (to employ the Ezekiel imagery)

You have again, corroborated the Catholic Teaching of a continual process of justification.

You cannot separate creation from redemption … You cannot separate spiritual from physical life … if one thing the patristics taught is that you can’t …

That’s a straw man, since no one is doing so.

If God is omnipotent is creation, He too is omnipotent in redemption … for creation IS redemption … creation is destroyed to be re-created and persons or humans are them “microcosms” that is the representative and representation one and the same of creation …

You seem to have strung a lot of grandiose words together without rhyme or reason. Creation is certainly not redemption. They are two very different things. Certainly God can create and destroy and recreate, but what does that have to do with the price of beans?

We are talking about 2 judgements as we see in Scripture vs 1 judgement as you claim.

Please provide your evidence that there is only one judgement. Because for all the words you string together, they don’t add up to the Teaching of Scripture.
De Maria said,

December 1, 2014 at 9:31 pm

Sorry Paige, I guess I was working on 47 when you posted 46.

Back to your OP, how do you feel that the verses 1-25, relate to 26-29?

I feel like 26-29 is a warning that we should appreciate the gift we have received in the NT vs the OT. In the OT, God was to be feared. In the NT we call God our Father. This is why he concludes with the words, “Our God is consuming fire.”
De Maria said,

December 1, 2014 at 9:40 pm

Paige said, #46,

Maybe whichever one of you mentioned this meant that for Christian believers, the final judgment has already been pronounced? That sounds soundly Reformed.

But is it in accordance with Scripture?

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

That is St. Paul speaking to Christians and he uses the pronoun, “we”.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

He does the same here.
Pete Rambo said,

December 1, 2014 at 9:51 pm

Kevin

25 And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall Ido to inherit eternal life?” 26 And He (Yeshua) said to him, “What is written in the Torah? How does it read to you?” 27 And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.” 28 And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; do this and you will live.”

‘Lov[ing] the Lord with all your soul, mind and strength’ is not mental assent. It is clearly an action. Faith is an action, not some prayer or ‘belief statement.’ Covenant loyalty, i.e. ‘loving your master/Suzerain’ is/was an action. Not some words. In the Hebrew (correct context) mind, faith and works cannot be separated. See Genesis 26:5

Paul: “Do we then nullify the Torah through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Torah.”

James 2:24 ‘…a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.’
De Maria said,

December 1, 2014 at 10:35 pm

Kevin Failoni said,
December 1, 2014 at 8:18 pm

DeMaria, you keep quoting Romans 2:13 so I am going to surmize you are being justified by law.

It is God who justifies, Kevin.

1 Corinthians 4:2-4New International Version (NIV)

2 Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful. 3 I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me.

You might want to read Galatians 3:10 cursed is anyone who does not abide in all things of the law.

That is correct.

Get busy it requires perfection.

God is merciful.

Titus 3:5New International Version (NIV)

5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

Give up blogging bro. Mathew 25 describes 2 types of people, those united to Christ by faith and those who aren’t.

I don’t think the word “faith” is even used once in Matt 25. But it is clearly expressed that Jesus will save those who are charitable to their neighbor and condemn those who are not.

In no way is this teaching we merit our justification.

Whether you call it merit or not, it teaches that God will not save evil doers. That is the Teaching of Scripture:

Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Remember where Paul got his gospel, directly from Jesus. And Paul says NO works in justification.

Romans 2:6-13King James Version (KJV)

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

This is descriptive of sheep and goats.

Its descriptive of the sheep and the goats. But it is prescriptive for us. If we want to be numbered amongst the sheep, Jesus prescribes that we must feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, help the stranger, clothe the naked, and visit those in jail.

If you want to be numbered amongst the sheep, don’t do any of those works of mercy.
Kevin Failoni said,

December 1, 2014 at 11:12 pm

DeMaria, the beatitudes were imperatives not comands, Iowit isnt saying if you are meek youll enter the kingdom of heaven, but blessed are the meek. The word blessing means already in God’s favor. This is gospel before Jesus lays down the hammer with if youeven lust in you mind after a woman…….. He sets the standard of the law( which none of us can attain), thats why law drives us to gospel, unless of Course you are Roman Catholic who think l I ving neighbor and God with all of heart soul and mind is attainable. Jesus said He came to fulfill the law. Jesus isnt a softer Moses with an easier law. He says we ARE salt and we ARE light. Done deal. For those in the Spirit by faith alone in Christ alone have been reconciled and justified. You guys are just the Pharisees of the NT. Religious. But you can be religious about brushing your teeth. J u st means you do it all the time. Works righteouness born out of love and merits and demerits, only something an idolatrous philosopher could love. Aquinas.
Jason Loh said,

December 1, 2014 at 11:14 pm

Vincent, if it comes from the pope’s mouth, then it’s heretical.

Why do you want to get his approval for?

The pope is the Antichrist. Period.

Newman was a lousy and 3rd rate theologian.

There can be no reunion with Rome.

Does that mean we don’t talk, ecumenise and dialogue and so on? Of course we do.

There is a difference between this and that.

Distinction is the essence in theology because ultimately it is going to boil down to preaching. Make the wrong distinction, and that’s it — the message is perverted …
Jason Loh said,

December 1, 2014 at 11:18 pm

I respect the Pope … but damn his quotes … that’s not the gospel …

The gospel is this: There is NOTHING else to do before God …

Now just get the hell out of God’s sight and do good works, busy and active … as if God did not exist at all!

And then come back to God and receive His unconditional forgiveness … that’s gospel or evangelical spirituality … true catholic spirituality …

Not mysticism, charismaticism, both tongue-speaking Romanists and Anglo-Papists and Wesleyans and Pentecostals and Charismatics getting together for a enthusiast fest …

Oktoberfest! Celebrating the creation of God …
Jason Loh said,

December 1, 2014 at 11:27 pm

Prevenient grace is a lousy theological concept because of the fact that God doesn’t come before you like a hare is faster than a tortoise.

God predestines, elects … foreknows and thus so comes before us by fixing our destiny beforehand … that’s the whole point …

When He see you, He sees your whole life … from cradle to grave and more …

Eschatology (the age to come) and ontology (the present age) collide with each other but can never be confused or mixed up …

You’re translated (that’s what St Paul says), taken out from one age into the other … it’s like time-travel, you see …

One dimension of existence to the other … what’s there to do?

THIS age is decaying, degenerating … what’s there to do in order to climb the ladder …?

Jesus Christ overcomes all distance and gulf for you by taking you into Himself Who is the New Aeon Personified — the end of law to all who believed, Romans 10:4 …

So, what’s there to do before God?

It’s Christ Jesus alone or nothing …

If it’s the gospel plus free-will and so on and so forth … then recall St Paul … flesh and blood CANNOT inherit the kingdom of God …

Take note …
Jason Loh said,

December 1, 2014 at 11:34 pm

As Luther is never tired of saying, it’s only by being unworthy that we are declared worthy …

If we think that we are worthy, then in God’s sight, we are unworthy …

The parable of the sheep and goats:
“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

Matthew 7:
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

What is the will of God? To believe, trust, have faith in Him (John 6) … that He is merciful …! The parable of the Pharisee and the publican …
Kevin Failoni said,

December 1, 2014 at 11:42 pm

Pete Rambo said ” do this and you shall live” Ya Pete thats law. Live and you shall do this is gospel. You see Pete youdo your level best and God gives you grace, God gives us grace and we do our level best. ” Unless your righteouness surpasses that of the scribes and the Pharisees you will not enter the kingdom of heaven” In the example you gave He said to the man you are not far off. Iow Jesus set the standard of the law. It requires perfection. Its thru anothers obedience we are righteous Rom. 5:19. And what you sauy about the covenant of works is true. But in Ezekiel and Jeremiah, the new covenat is different. He writes his laws on our heart, and takes out the heart of stone and gives us a heart of flesh before one act of obedience. He made this covenant with His Son, we are the beneficiaries. We see the first picture of the Gospel in Genesis when Adam and Eve sinned and were naked. God killed an animal and clothed them in the skins without them doing anything. Your in a system where you are sanctified before you are justified. The tail wagging the dog.
Kevin Failoni said,

December 1, 2014 at 11:48 pm

Jason, awesome man.
Vincent said,

December 2, 2014 at 4:35 am

So Jason that quote is only heretical because it happens to come out of the Pope’s mouth? So if it came out of the mouth of say James White or anybody else it would be perfectly alright? Am I understanding you?
paigebritton said,

December 2, 2014 at 7:30 am

Hey, this is your post author and moderator speaking — save the papal critique for another thread. This one’s on Hebrews. Thanks, all.
paigebritton said,

December 2, 2014 at 8:00 am

De Maria, thanks for your questions in 48 & 49 there — I will try to interact with them later today. :)
Kevin Failoni said,

December 2, 2014 at 8:28 am

Vincent, its heretical because the Pope is the guardian of Catholic theology and its a false gospel. I showed you why its heretical. The Pope said we are justified by charity. Vincent, listen carefully, the bible never, ever sayscwe are justified by love in any way. Thd momen to it comes from ourselves its no longer grace and its a false gospel. Romans 11:6, Ephesians 2: 8.
paigebritton said,

December 2, 2014 at 8:35 am

Kevin (#62) — in case you missed my note above — let’s stick to the topic of the thread, please (Hebrews, eschatology maybe). Thank you!
— Paige Britton, moderator
Kevin Failoni said,

December 2, 2014 at 9:45 am

Paige, sorry for getting off topic. Everything seems to come back to the hinge, justification. Heaven anh hell.
paigebritton said,

December 2, 2014 at 11:35 am

Yup. Sometimes you just gotta resist, though… :)
paigebritton said,

December 2, 2014 at 8:25 pm

De Maria (#48) — getting back to you, here: You wrote —

Back to your OP, how do you feel that the verses 1-25, relate to 26-29? I feel like 26-29 is a warning that we should appreciate the gift we have received in the NT vs the OT. In the OT, God was to be feared. In the NT we call God our Father. This is why he concludes with the words, “Our God is consuming fire.”

I think you are right that there is a connection between the parts — the writer of Hebrews (I’m in the “Not-Paul” camp) is always very deliberate, and as he moves into each subsequent topic there is always a link to what’s come before. And I think you are right to see it in terms of the difference of relationship (“then” and “now”), but I would explain that a little differently.

First of all, I wouldn’t characterize the God of the OT as any more to be feared than the God of the NT. Certainly the mountain scene at Sinai was a scary one, but the warnings in Hebrews are equally scary! Same God, same “consuming fire” — we come to him on HIS terms — by faith in the Son — or we are subject ultimately to his wrath, whether then or now. This is why the author concludes the section with the “consuming fire” comment in v.29. Take God seriously.

The flip side, of course, is what you’ve picked up on — not necessarily “in the NT,” but “in Christ,” by faith, we may call God our Father. This is a relationship that involves discipline, but also freedom of approach and celebration (the contrasting spiritual mountain of vv.22-24). I don’t think this understanding and experience of God was impossible to come by in the OT — those saints described in ch. 11 seemed to have experienced something like it — but there is definitely a clarity about our “sonship” in the NT that wasn’t available really in the OT. And the contrast between the OT sacrificial system, which emphasized separation, and the access that we gain through the Son is, of course, one of the author’s main themes. So there is definitely a difference between then and now, just not necessarily “scary” and “not scary.”

I’m still musing over the shakings of vv.25-29… The writer’s original purpose had to do with motivating a probably Jewish Christian congregation out of a spiritual slump and the temptation to drift back to the practices of their past. Again and again the warnings in this letter address leaving what is true for what is false; and again and again the contrasts in the letter show how Jesus is in all respects better. Somehow these “shakings” describe an ultimate contrast, a positive one for those who embrace the Son. What remains elusive to me is quite when those shakings are thought to occur (at the cross & resurrection, or at the end of all things?). In any case, the good news of Jesus is held out as the reason to endure as circumstances get tough. The circumstances will one day be shaken away, but Christ’s kingdom endures forever.

Seeing these things in the context of the original recipients helps, I think, to narrow the interpretation of these passages to motivations for Christian endurance in this life. Whether it’s still to happen at the end of days or it happened already at the cross, the ultimate shaking of things is mentioned for the sake of the believer’s confidence. Not sure whether it’s also part of the warning of v.25, though I guess it could be read that way — take God seriously, or you’ll get shaken and removed yourself! I would say it’s mentioned with a more joyful purpose (v.28, “therefore, let us be grateful…”).

Hope all that makes sense.
paigebritton said,

December 2, 2014 at 8:32 pm

De Maria, more briefly, on your #49 — re. whether it’s biblical to say that judgment has been “brought forward” in time for believers, if we’ve still got passages in the NT that describe all of us appearing at the judgment seat at the end of all days. That’s probably the stuff of another thread, not least because it means sketching an entire worldview, not out of proof texts here and there but out of the sense of the whole (and explaining how we each make sense of the whole would take a long time!). But this from Hebrews begins to address it — speaking of the permanence of Jesus’ priesthood on our behalf: “Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.” (Heb. 7:25)
De Maria said,

December 2, 2014 at 8:56 pm

Paige, #66,

Hope all that makes sense.

Yes. I think we basically agree.
De Maria said,

December 2, 2014 at 9:08 pm

paigebritton said,
December 2, 2014 at 8:32 pm

De Maria, more briefly, on your #49 — re. whether it’s biblical to say that judgment has been “brought forward” in time for believers, if we’ve still got passages in the NT that describe all of us appearing at the judgment seat at the end of all days. That’s probably the stuff of another thread,…. But this from Hebrews begins to address it — speaking of the permanence of Jesus’ priesthood on our behalf: “Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.” (Heb. 7:25)

I think the key words there are “those who draw near to God through Him”. That verse reminds me of this one:

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvationunto all them that obey him;

Neither of these verses say that these people will not be subject to the final judgment. They might not be condemned to eternal punishment when they stand before God at the judgment, but only if they persevere in the Faith of Jesus Christ. Hebrews says in another place:

Hebrews 6:4-6King James Version (KJV)

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Kevin Failoni said,

December 2, 2014 at 11:11 pm

DeMaria, Corinthians tells those trusting lin the Word alone that if Christ isnt risen, our faith is useless, and we are still in our sins. We are positionallg no longer in our sins having been justified by faith. We are sealed in the Spirit, adopted, heir, with an inheritance that can never fade away. The one who started a good work in us WILL perfect it. Thats why its called a promise and not an dvaluation. We are seated in the heavenlies with Him. God doesnt seat guilty people now in heaven with Him. The sints are longing to put on their new digs. If they werent to know that they are golden yet, they wouldnt be pining for their glorified bodies. Its finished, not medicine to earn!
Kevin Failoni said,

December 3, 2014 at 11:32 am

Hebrews should be instructive to you DeMaria becausevthe writer is warning those who want to return the physical altar, physical sacrifice, and a physical Priesthood( remind you of any church, hint RC), that it is shrinking back in faith. Everytime we see examples of physical or fleshly understanding it is always unbelief. When Nicodemus understands born again as going back into his mothers womb, or the woman at the well before she believed asking Jesus where Do I find this water, or John 6 where those who walked away when Christ said eat my body, drink my blood, because they took it physically, fleshly. And Jesus says what I said to you is Spirit and understood of faith, the flesh profits nothing. And thats whay the Roman mass is most of all unbelief and a denial of saving faith. Christians trust in the already shed blood and understand spiritually the supper, for it is the Spirit who gives life. Eating his body, drinking his blood, drinking the water of the fountain of life is believing the Word, without which it is impossible to please God. As the writer of Hebrew warns Jesus altar, sacrifice and Priesthood is in heaven, and the need for a physical altar, sacrifice and Priesthood is a lack of faith.
roberty bob said,

December 3, 2014 at 11:58 am

in reply to #70 . . .

Here in the Hebrews 12:26-29 passage it is [professing, and presumably justified-by-faith] members of the Christian Church who are being warned of the dire consequences of refusing to listen to the voice from heaven, even the very voice of their Lord and Savior. The persons being addressed in Hebrews could only be assured of having been justified and saved by remaining faithful, or loyal,to Christ.

DeMaria is tuned in to that urgent warning, and continually recites the Biblical texts that sound the alarm to the church’s professing members.

Kevin’s response is that those like DeMaria who make the effort to remain faithful are trying to earn their way into God’s good graces.

I think that DeMaria is in line with the Apostolic tradition which exhorts us at all times, “Do not receive the grace of God in vain!” Yes, receive God’s grace by faith . . . which means, as Jesus said, “Go! And sin no more.” Trust and obey! Doing this is not an act of self-justification or self-righteousness; it is obedience to the Law of the Spirit of Life who now rules in the place of the Law of Sin and Death — in order to work within the faithful Christian true righteousness.
Kevin Failoni said,

December 3, 2014 at 12:55 pm

roberty rob, Ya, your right, DeMaria spends his theology warning Christians and depriving them of the same thing the medieval apostate Roman church had taken from them, robbing them of the assurance bible perspicuously gives. Romans 5:1, 8:1, 1 John 5:13, Ephesians 2:8 and listen to Hebrews 9:28 ” so Christ also, having been offered ONCE to bear the sins of the many, will appear a second time for salvation WITHOUT reference to sin, to those who eagerly wait him. Hebrews 12:29 is warning of the coming judgment for unbelief, but tells believers since we receive the kingdom, be thankful and behave as such. This isn’t another threat to believers to watch out you may not get the carrot in the end if you don’t accumulate enough righteousness. One of the main points of the Reformation was to bring Perspicuity to Scripture as a response to a false and FAILED Papacy which was built on phony documents. These are facts that even Catholic apologists now acknowledge, we wish the Beast would acknowledge it, but they can’t reform, they are infallible. One of the biggest misconceptions with Protestants and especially Reformed ( naively buying the Roman lie) is that the church for the first 1500 years was Roman Catholic. It wasn’t. And the other misconception is Catholicism was organized. It wasn’t. It was a mess. Popes excommunicating other Popes, everyone in the Catholic church was excommunicated. The selling of Christ’s merits for sordid gain. And worst of all taking from the people the assurance God wants us to have. We learned when Benedict quit, that it was a job, simply a job. He didn’t want to deal with the sin that has plagued the church forever. How did the church live if its head resigned? Hmm. We know Christ is head, and these popes die, and how can the church live if the head resigned or dies. Their Priest die. We have a high Priest who lives forever. You said ” Kevin’s response is that those who make and effort to remain faithful are trying to earn their way into God’s graces.” No, those who are trusting in Christ will remain faithful because HE remains faithful and loses none. You guys have a God who sits on the sideline and says cmon, I hope, I hope, I hope you’ll make it. He can only give you the medicine, the special juju to earn. And yes robbery bob, if nobody has broken it to you yet, the catholic church teaches you that you can smuggle your character into God’s work of grace. The difference between doing works that are the result of saving faith and doing them to earn increase installments of your salvation, is the difference between heaven and hell. Go no further than Romans 9 :32 – 10:4. The Roman church is just the OT religious system who thought they where the true church, and they were the infallible interpreter and guardian of scripture. And Jesus put it in their face. He throw the law at them. And those like prostitutes, tax collectors, sinners He gave them the gospel and they were saved. You got to know how lost you are before you can understand faith alone in christ alone. And that will never happen when you are taught you don’t need redemption, but just a little nature healing medicine. K
roberty bob said,

December 3, 2014 at 2:35 pm

“Hebrews 12:29 is warning of the coming judgment for unbelief, but tells believers since we receive the kingdom, be thankful and behave as such. This is not another threat to believers to watch out you may not get the carrot in the end if you don’t accumulate enough righteousness.” — K

The concern in Hebrews is not how much righteousness professing believers may happen to accumulate; the concern is that some of the professing believers were considering a return to Judaism and the OT administration. Such a return to Judaism puts them in peril. That is the point. These were actual professing believers in Christ who were being warned. The new covenant administration under the headship of Christ was superior in every way to the old administration. Their salvation came through the once and for all sacrifice of Christ. One cannot turn one’s back on that without consequences.
Vincent said,

December 3, 2014 at 4:35 pm

Kevin if the church of the first 1500 years was not RC than when did the roman catholicism come into existence? What date would you give?
Kevin Failoni said,

December 3, 2014 at 4:36 pm

Roberty bob said “the concern was that professing believers returning to judaism” exactly, look no further than your church, who like these were told that the old was obselete, a Priesthood sacrificing daily for sins was replaced by the one time perfect sacrifice, and He was a permanent Priest from a different order. So Rome reinstitutes the old testament sacrificial system, and like these being warned this was a lack of faith, Im telling you the same. 10:18 there are NO mmore sacrifices for sins. And dont tell me like Bryan Cross did to tell me this meant animal sacrifices. Its clear, no more sacrifices. The only sacrifices acceptable to God are spiritualsacrifices of prayer and thanksgiving. He put sin away Hebrews says, it perfected us, and we have been sanctified 10:8. You have a false Priesthood doing Priestcraft. Your Priest die and dont qualify because only one who is from the order of Melchizadek does.
Kevin Failoni said,

December 3, 2014 at 4:47 pm

Vincent, great question! 358. Go to Tim Kauffman’s site ” out of His mouth” whitehorse blog, and read his series of articles, the most important of which is ” The rise of Roman Catholicism” it came on time Vincent, just as Paul said in Thess 2, and Daniel 2, 7, Revelations. In 4th century, 358, we see all these strange doctrines enter, Papacy, elevation of Mary, saint worship and relics, forbidding marriage, Jerome’s faulty translation Vulgate, etc. All of which even Roman apologists admit cannot be found before this. Tim Kauffman is a former Roman Catholic, and could be considered the foremost authority on early church. Read Vincent, you wont be dissapoinited.
De Maria said,

December 3, 2014 at 7:01 pm

Kevin Failoni said, #77,
December 3, 2014 at 4:47 pm

Vincent, great question! 358. Go to Tim Kauffman’s site ” out of His mouth” whitehorse blog, and read his series of articles, the most important of which is ” The rise of Roman Catholicism” it came on time Vincent, just as Paul said in Thess 2, and Daniel 2, 7, Revelations.

Read those verses yourself. You will not find the Catholic Church mentioned even once. Tim has simply used his anti-Catholic bias to twist the Scripture.

In 4th century, 358, we see all these strange doctrines enter, Papacy,

On the contrary, Jesus established the Papacy in Matt 16:18.

elevation of Mary,

God elevated Mary when He made her the mother of His Son.

saint worship

We don’t worship Saints.

and relics,

Relics were used in Apostolic times:

Acts 19:12 So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.

forbidding marriage,

The Catholic Church does not forbid marriage but acknowledges that Jesus Christ elevates it to a Sacrament.

Priests choose not to marry in order to focus on God:

1 Corinthians 7:32-33King James Version (KJV)

32 But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord:

33 But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.

Jerome’s faulty translation Vulgate, etc.

St. Jerome’s translation is the best there ever was made. However, it is in a language that is mostly unknown.

All of which even Roman apologists admit cannot be found before this. Tim Kauffman is a former Roman Catholic, and could be considered the foremost authority on early church. Read Vincent, you wont be dissapoinited.

You ought to read, as well. Compare your church doctrines which contradict Catholicism to Scripture. You will find, at the very best, that they are not there. But mostly, that they contradict the Word of God.
Kevin Failoni said,

December 3, 2014 at 7:31 pm

DeMaria, said ” Priests choose not to marry in order tobfocus on God” This satatement should be instructive too Vincent and others here because its typical RC reading. Read the history of when bishops such as Jovaniusand many others fought against Jerome to not change the biblical order of bishops marrying which is clearly taught in scripture. Jovanius and others were kicked out over this. In the 11th century, the Catholic church prohibited marriage among Priests to confiscate their wealth. No children, nothing to pass on. Marian worship was nowhere to be found before the 4th century. The Papacy didnt exist, there was a collegiality of bishops, often times the bishop of Rome having no consequence. Jerome didnt understand hebrew and misinterpreted dikaiou to declare righteous to justificare to make righteous. He misinterpreted repentance to do penance. He was haunted in his dreams for much of his life, always being beaten by God black and blue for his errors. As I said Catholic doctrine before the 4th century is only visible to Catholics, who see whats no there. Transubstantiation was not the teaching of the early church, nor was there a sacrifi, ce of the Mass. Eucharistic adoration ( idolatry) didnt appear until the 12th century. I could go on.
De Maria said,

December 3, 2014 at 11:19 pm

Kevin Failoni said,
December 3, 2014 at 7:31 pm

DeMaria, said ” Priests choose not to marry in order tobfocus on God”

Scripture says that the unmarried man can focus on God. That is why Priests of the Catholic Church choose not to marry. In order that they may focus on God:

1 Corinthians 7:32-33King James Version (KJV)

32 But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord:

33 But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.

This satatement should be instructive too Vincent and others here because its typical RC reading. Read the history of when bishops such as Jovaniusand many others fought against Jerome to not change the biblical order of bishops marrying which is clearly taught in scripture.

I’m glad you brought this up. It goes to show the difference in the way that we understand Scripture.

Catholics recognize that the New Testament was written on the basis of an already existing Tradition established by Jesus Christ.

Jesus, for example, is our very first Bishop.

1 Peter 2:24-25King James Version (KJV)

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. 25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Now, that doesn’t explicitly say that Jesus is our Bishop. But, the Bishop is described as the one who bore our sins on the tree and by whose stripes we are healed and as our Shepherd.

So, Jesus is our first Bishop and Jesus was not married.

Also, the Apostleships were all Bishopricks, as indicated in Scripture:

Acts 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishopric let another take.

That describes the apostleship which Judas Iscariot left vacant. And it is called a Bishoprick.

I mention that because St. John the Evangelist, an Apostle and therefore a Bishop, was not married.

So, the existing Tradition did not require married Bishops.

Therefore, when we read:
1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

We know that St. Paul is not requiring that Bishops be married. If so, he would disqualify himself, since, according to Scripture, he wasn’t married:

1 Cor 7:8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them if they abide even as I. 9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

But,it is understood to mean that, if a Bishop is married, he must be handling his household well.

Jovanius and others were kicked out over this. In the 11th century, the Catholic church prohibited marriage among Priests to confiscate their wealth. No children, nothing to pass on.

The Catholic Church, in the west, (the Catholic Church in the east still has a married priesthood) did not prohibit marriage. The Catholic Church ruled that any man who wants to be a priest must make a vow of celibacy in order that he may be free to focus upon pleasing the Lord.

Marian worship was nowhere to be found before the 4th century.

We don’t worship Mary. We do, however, recognize the high regard in which God held her. It is God, after all, who sent an Angel to her to praise her and it is the Holy Spirit who inspired a saintly woman to proclaim her blessed. And this was all inscribed in Scripture.

Therefore, it is God’s will that we do the same.

The Papacy didnt exist,

Jesus established the Papacy (Matt 16:18) and confirmed that He had appointed Simon as the Pope in John 21:17.

John 21:17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

The Church is an ongoing concern, so when an office is vacated, it is to be filled by someone else in perpetuity as St. Peter confirmed in Acts 1:20.

Acts 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishopric let another take.

there was a collegiality of bishops,

That remains, as well.

often times the bishop of Rome having no consequence. Jerome didnt understand hebrew and misinterpreted dikaiou to declare righteous to justificare to make righteous. He misinterpreted repentance to do penance. He was haunted in his dreams for much of his life, always being beaten by God black and blue for his errors.

Not true.

Luther confused Justification by faith apart from works with faith alone.

When St. Paul said, “justified by faith apart from works”, Luther interpreted that as faith “alone”: But that s not what St. Paul meant. St. Paul was teaching the justification which occurs in the Sacraments.

Let me explain:

St. Paul taught the Catholic Teaching that only those who do the works of the Law are justified:

Romans 2:13
King James Version (KJV)
13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

In Catholic Teaching, we are justified by faith and works. That is the foundation and root of all justification. Faith is expressed and perfected in works.

However, the Church also teaches that we are justified in the Sacraments where we are washed in sanctifying grace. Especially Baptism. Sacraments are God’s mighty works. We don’t do anything except submit to His works in the proper dispostion, which is that of faith.

This is the Justification by faith apart from works to which St. Paul referred.

The process is evident in every semester of RCIA. By faith, we seek the Lord and study to show ourselves approved. Only those who undergo this process are then JUSTIFIED in Baptism.

As I said Catholic doctrine before the 4th century is only visible to Catholics, who see whats no there.

On the contrary, Kevin. It is abundantly clear from history that the Catholic Church has been teaching the same Doctrines which were passed down by Jesus Christ, from the beginning.

Transubstantiation was not the teaching of the early church,

Jesus Christ taught it:

John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh,which I will give for the life of the world.

nor was there a sacrifi, ce of the Mass.

1 Corinthians 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

Eucharistic adoration ( idolatry) didnt appear until the 12th century.

St. Augustine, 4th century said:

“…I turn to Christ, because it is He whom I seek here; and I discover how the earth is adored without impiety, how without impiety the footstool of His feet is adored. For He received earth from earth; because flesh is from the earth, and He took flesh from the flesh of Mary. He walked here in the same flesh, AND GAVE US THE SAME FLESH TO BE EATEN UNTO SALVATION. BUT NO ONE EATS THAT FLESH UNLESS FIRST HE ADORES IT; and thus it is discovered how such a footstool of the Lord’s feet is adored; AND NOT ONLY DO WE NOT SIN BY ADORING, WE DO SIN BY NOT ADORING.” (Psalms 98:9)

Ambrose of Milan, 4th century,

The angels adore not only the divinity of Christ, but also the footstool of His feet. … Or if they deny that in Christ also the mysteries of the incarnation are to be adored, in which the very marks of His deity are seen and where we note the sure paths of the heavenly Logos, they should read that the apostles also adored Him when He rose in the glory of His flesh [Luke 24:52]. … The prophet says [Ps. 99:5] that the earth which the Lord Jesus took upon himself, when he took on flesh, should be adored. Therefore by “footstool” we understand the earth, and by this earth we understand THE FLESH WHICH WE TODAY ALSO ADORE IN THE MYSTERIES [i.e. in the celebration of the Lord’s Supper] and which the apostles adored in the Lord Jesus, as we have said above.

I could go on.

ok.
Kevin Failoni said,

December 4, 2014 at 9:57 am

DeMaria, said “Priests choose not to marry to better serve God” Its not their choice. They are forced to live in unnatural restraint. The bible says they are to be married. Is it any wonder that because of auricular confession and forced celibacy we have seen the awful things in the Roman Priesthood. Tgese men need our prayer. Lost in a false religion, isolated, forced to live in unatural restraint. And is it any wonder that the largest appartment for Cardinals next to the Vatican, which houses as many a 20 Cardinals is located right on top of the largest gay bar in Rome. You wonder why Ratzinger quit for what he called the filth. Anyone who reads 2 Thesalonians 2 and comes away thinking anything but Rome has a strong delusion on them. Wake up DeMaria today is the day of salvation.
Kevin Failoni said,

December 4, 2014 at 11:03 am

DeMaria, roberty rob, 1 Peter 1:3-4. Its an inheritance, not a wage. Its rooted in God’s mercy, not our works, its waiting for Christians in heaven, and cant go away. He is risen. I call on all Catholics to quit worshiping the elements of the supper, let Him out of the little prison, let Him off the altar and the cross, its empty, and look to heaven in faith alone where our righteouness is. When Cyprian and Cyricius made up the treasury, throwing the merits of Christ and the martyrs together in the same lump, supplementarry aid was sought to buy off the punishment of God, and no more honor was paid to Christ. But Romans 4:25 says opposite, he was delivered over fod our sins and aised for our justification. He is Risen, My righteouness is in heaven. A Christ still on the altar cant save you. God bless.
Kevin Failoni said,

December 4, 2014 at 11:55 am

Paige, I hope you allow this Calvin quote I found today in his tract ” The Necessity to Reform the church” for our roman Catholic friends. Calvin ” Its true Jesus is called redeemer, but this is understood in a manner which implies that men also, by their own free will , redeem themselves from the bondage of sin and death. True, He is called righteousness and salvation, but in a way that men can procure salvation for themselves, by the merit of their works. True, Christ is said to have reconciled us to the Father, but with this reservation, that men, by their own satisfactions, buy off the punishments which they owe to the justice of God. When supplementary aid is sought, no more honor is paid to Christ than to the saints such as Cyprian and Cyricius. Fo, in making up the treasury, the merits of Christ and the martyrs were thrown together in the same lump.” Paul did not call his sin dung, but he called his righteousness dung! Let this be instructive to our Roman friends who seek salvation thru faith and works.
Kevin Failoni said,

December 4, 2014 at 4:33 pm

DeMaria said it is clearfrom history that the Catholic church has taught the doctrines passed down to itvsince Christ” You mean like JPII and Vatican 2 say that all Trinity hating, and Christ’s deity denying muslims are going to heaven, which you believe. Why are you so worried about works when JP 2 declared all do gooders golden. You know that new V2 gospe, stay where you are and do your best. God bless.
De Maria said,

December 4, 2014 at 6:14 pm

Kevin Failoni said,
December 4, 2014 at 9:57 am

DeMaria, said “Priests choose not to marry to better serve God” Its not their choice. They are forced to live in unnatural restraint. The bible says they are to be married….

Again, this goes to show the difference in the way that we understand Scripture.

Catholics recognize that the New Testament was written on the basis of an already existing Tradition established by Jesus Christ.

Jesus, for example, is our very first Bishop.

1 Peter 2:24-25King James Version (KJV)

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. 25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Now, that doesn’t explicitly say that Jesus is our Bishop. But, the Bishop is described as the one who bore our sins on the tree and by whose stripes we are healed and as our Shepherd.

So, Jesus is our first Bishop and Jesus was not married.

That establishes the precedent of unmarried Bishops. Jesus also selected some unmarried Apostles and Apostles are Bishops.

Apostleships were all Bishopricks, as indicated in Scripture:

Acts 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishopric let another take.

That describes the apostleship which Judas Iscariot left vacant. And it is called a Bishoprick.

I mention that because St. John the Evangelist, an Apostle and therefore a Bishop, was not married.

So, the existing Tradition did not require married Bishops.

Therefore, when we read:
1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

We know that St. Paul is not requiring that Bishops be married. If so, he would disqualify himself, since, according to Scripture, he wasn’t married:

1 Cor 7:8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them if they abide even as I. 9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

But,it is understood to mean that, if a Bishop is married, he must be handling his household well.
De Maria said,

December 4, 2014 at 6:17 pm

Kevin Failoni said,
December 4, 2014 at 11:03 am

DeMaria, roberty rob, 1 Peter 1:3-4. Its an inheritance, not a wage…..

Whether it is an inheritance or a wage, the fact is that God will not save those who do not obey His Son:

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

And that, at least brings us back to Hebrews.
De Maria said,

December 4, 2014 at 6:18 pm

Kevin Failoni said,
December 4, 2014 at 4:33 pm

DeMaria said it is clearfrom history that the Catholic church has taught the doctrines passed down to itvsince Christ” You mean like JPII and Vatican 2 say that all Trinity hating, and Christ’s deity denying muslims are going to heaven, which you believe…..

Kevin, that’s a blatant lie. And I’m saying that as nicely as I can. But if you believe that to be true, please provide the quote.
De Maria said,

December 4, 2014 at 6:38 pm

roberty bob said, #74,
December 3, 2014 at 2:35 pm

The concern in Hebrews is not how much righteousness professing believers may happen to accumulate; the concern is that some of the professing believers were considering a return to Judaism and the OT administration. Such a return to Judaism puts them in peril. That is the point. These were actual professing believers in Christ who were being warned. The new covenant administration under the headship of Christ was superior in every way to the old administration. Their salvation came through the once and for all sacrifice of Christ. One cannot turn one’s back on that without consequences.

Precisely. And I think this is the point that is being made from 12:18-29.

I also believe he (I believe it is St. Paul) may have made his point more concisely, in Heb 10:25-31.

First he talks about our gathering:

Hebrews 10:25-31King James Version (KJV)

25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

And insists that we should not miss it on penalty of sin:

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

And he considers this a “willful” sin.

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

And the penalty for this willful sin of missing the Assembly, is condemnation.

Many folks wonder why the Catholic Church considers it a MORTAL sin to miss the Mass. This is the reason. St. Paul reiterates it, forcefully, below.

28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

First he reminds us of the OT penalty of merciless death for missing their assembly.

29 Of how much sorer punishment,

Then he says that we deserve a harsher punishment for the missing our Assembly. Why? He explains.

suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God,

To miss the Mass is to disrespect Jesus Christ. It is to “tread Him under”. Understand. He’s talking about a Sacrament that many people are calling symbolic. He’s talking about the Holy Eucharist which some people call a “cracker”. Yet, he says a person deserves a punishment harsher than death if they don’t gather to “do this in remembrance of” Him.

He continues.

and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

The Blood of the Covenant is the Cup of His Blood which was formerly wine. Again, to miss the Mass is to despise His Blood and for St. Paul, is deserving of a punishment worse than death.

He has twice reiterated message of Heb 12:18-29. We have received so much. If we aren’t grateful for what we have received, we will pay.

30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

I’d like to skip to the last verse, for those who believe in Absolute Assurance of Salvation.

36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

The NIV renders it:
36 For patience is necessary for you; that, doing the will of God, you may receive the promise.

In either case, it is clear, that doing the will of God is required before one receives the promise of salvation.
Kevin Failoni said,

December 4, 2014 at 7:05 pm

DeMaria said ” in either case its clear, that doing the will of God is required beforeone receives the promise of salvation” And to Christians it is clear that its because He did the will of God and because He did we posess the promise. Thats why its called the Good News. Wait and see if you accumulated enough righteouness at the end isnt good news.You guys are confused. For its not the his presence in the bread that can save you, but his presence in our heart by faith in his blood, which has washed away our sins, and pacified his Father’s wrath toward us.
roberty bob said,

December 4, 2014 at 7:34 pm

in reply to #89 Kevin . . .

It sounds like you are saying that “because He [Jesus] did the will of God”, we don’t have to do the will of God; even if we try to do it, we won’t do it perfectly so it gets us nowhere . . . so why bother?

Of course, that really flies in the face of Hebrews 10:36 . . . as DeMaria points out!

Kevin, you have consistently rejected the biblical admonitions to do the will of God; that sounds too much like work to you, and work is gets in the way of the gospel. That’s what I hear you say.
De Maria said,

December 4, 2014 at 8:59 pm

Kevin Failoni said,
December 4, 2014 at 7:05 pm

DeMaria said ” in either case its clear, that doing the will of God is required beforeone receives the promise of salvation” And to Christians it is clear that its because He did the will of God and because He did we posess the promise.

Scripture says only those who do the will of God will be saved:

Matthew 7:21King James Version (KJV)

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Thats why its called the Good News.

Its called the Good News because God took on flesh in order to be sacrificed for our sins.

Wait and see if you accumulated enough righteouness at the end isnt good news.

It isn’t to you because you don’t have faith in God. You have faith in self. And you express that faith in self by declaring yourself saved.

But I hope in God and await His Judgement because I have faith in Him. As the Scripture says:

Hebrews 6:10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

You guys are confused. For its not the his presence in the bread that can save you, but his presence in our heart by faith in his blood, which has washed away our sins, and pacified his Father’s wrath toward us.

Jesus Christ said:

John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

I believe Jesus.
Kevin Failoni said,

December 4, 2014 at 9:14 pm

Roberty bob said ” it seems like you are saying because He did the will of God we dont have to” Romans 5:19 ” even so thru one man’s obedience the many will be constituted righteous” ” Kevin you continuall reject the biblical admonitions to do the will of God” Hardly, pursuit of holiness is denying oneself, picking up our cross and following Him. I continually reject your Catholic attempts to smuggle your chracter into God’s work of grace. I reject the biblical admonitions to you not to smuggle your character into God’s work of grace. Your disobedient to ” not that of yourself” ” not of works”. How clear can that be. Medicine to earn is rejection of Romans 11:6. You went on ” sounds like work to you and gets in the way 9of the gospel” I like when you call me antinomian because it confirms to me Im preaching the right gospel. Paul got accused of antinomianism.. so im in good company. And he answered it with more gospel , not law. Phil. 3 Paul didnt consider his sin dung, but his righteousness. He wanted to be found in Christ’s righteouness by faith, not his own.
De Maria said,

December 4, 2014 at 9:15 pm

roberty bob said,
December 4, 2014 at 7:34 pm

Of course, that really flies in the face of Hebrews 10:36 . . . as DeMaria points out!….

I’ve been thinking that the entire book of Hebrews seems to be giving the same message. Remember this admonition?

Hebrews 2: 1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. 2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; 3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

And this one:

Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, 8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: 9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. 10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. 11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) 12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

This one is particularly telling:

Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
De Maria said,

December 4, 2014 at 9:24 pm

What does this mean, Kevin?

Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest,….

And this one:

Luke 20:34-36King James Version (KJV)

34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:

35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead,

neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

What does that mean, “let us labour to enter”? And “they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain the resurrection”?
roberty bob said,

December 4, 2014 at 9:51 pm

to #92 Kevin . . .

So, you do keep busy in the pursuit of holiness! Interesting.

Should I take that to mean that you are trying to establish your own holiness? Well, you would deny that you are doing any such thing. Yet, you continue to pursue holiness as you follow Jesus.

Why do you imply that I am trying to establish my own righteousness when I obey the commandments out of love for my Lord Jesus Christ?

I can’t see the difference between your pursuit of holiness and my obedience to the commandments. So, what is the difference?
Kevin Failoni said,

December 4, 2014 at 9:57 pm

DeMaria, nice Eisegesis. You forgot verse 9 @10 ” ” for there remains a Sabath rest for the people of God, for the one who entersvHis rest has himself also rested from his works, as God didvfrom His” Verse 3 ” For we who have believed HAVE entered that rest.” But the reason you dont know that DM is because of verse 2which gives the understanding for the whole passage ” for indeed we had good news preached to us, just as they also, but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.” Iow those who were disobedient didnt have saving faith, but those who have believed have entered that rest. This is consistent with James,” if someone says they have faith. ” True faith produces good works. Iow one demonstrates his faith by good works. But Jesus is just and justifier of those who have faith in Jesus. Rom. 3:26.
De Maria said,

December 4, 2014 at 10:13 pm

Kevin Failoni said,
December 4, 2014 at 9:57 pm

DeMaria, nice Eisegesis. …. Iow those who were disobedient didnt have saving faith, but those who have believed have entered that rest. This is consistent with James,” if someone says they have faith. ” True faith produces good works. Iow one demonstrates his faith by good works. But Jesus is just and justifier of those who have faith in Jesus. Rom. 3:26.

Well yeah. Its also in line with this:

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

God will not save those who do not obey His Son. That is the Catholic Doctrine.

Now, please respond to Roberty bob.

I can’t see the difference between your pursuit of holiness and my obedience to the commandments. So, what is the difference?

What’s the difference? What is it that you deny to yourself in order to follow Christ? What Cross have you taken up in order to follow Christ?
Kevin Failoni said,

December 4, 2014 at 10:13 pm

Roberty bob, ” why do you imply that Im establishing my own righteouness when I obey Christ out of love.” The difference is I believe Christ saved me, and you believe Christ helps you save yourself. My works or righteouness play no part in my justification, they do for you and thats a false gospel. Im save solely by the imputed righteouness of Christ, your saved by a works righteouness born out of love and merits and demerits. None of that exists in scripture, and is an invention of medieval schoolmen who atatched a christian faith ethic to a pagan philosophy. Hence a semi pelagian gospel. When Trent anathamatized jbfa, it anathamatized the gospel and fell under the anathema of Galatians 1:9.
De Maria said,

December 4, 2014 at 10:15 pm

Kevin, it sounds to me like you’re trying to work your way into heaven.

Kevin Failoni said, #92
December 4, 2014 at 9:14 pm

….Hardly, pursuit of holiness is denying oneself, picking up our cross and following Him….
Kevin Failoni said,

December 4, 2014 at 10:20 pm

DeMaria, you have quoted Hebrews : 5:9 7 thousand times. Thosecwho obeybHim are those who b ave been justified by faith alone in Christ alone. Romans 3:26, 5:1, Ephesians 2:8.
Kevin Failoni said,

December 4, 2014 at 10:25 pm

DeMaria, on the contrary Im not trying to be justified by my sanctification. Im justified by the imputed righteouness of Christ which comes thru faith alone. You were confusing yourself with me, I forgive you.lol
Kevin Failoni said,

December 4, 2014 at 10:38 pm

DeMaria asked what cross have you taken up to follow Christ. I die to myself daily, pick up my cross and follow Him, but never do I confuse that with my justification which is in heaven. And whats sad you will work your whole life DM and fing what the jews found in Romans 9:32-10:4. For they pursued it as if it by works and didnt get there. I pray for you.
De Maria said,

December 4, 2014 at 10:54 pm

Kevin Failoni said,
December 4, 2014 at 10:38 pm

DeMaria asked what cross have you taken up to follow Christ. I die to myself daily, pick up my cross and follow Him, but never do I confuse that with my justification which is in heaven. And whats sad you will work your whole life DM and fing what the jews found in Romans 9:32-10:4. For they pursued it as if it by works and didnt get there. I pray for you.

Thanks for praying for me, Kevin. I’ll take all the prayers I can get. But let me ask you, you claim to be saved by your faith alone. Yet, St. Paul did not claim the same for himself. Look….

If St. Paul thought he were saved by faith alone, why did he say this?

Philippians 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: 10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Don’t you think he was faithful before he wrote the letter to Philippi? Why, then, doesn’t he know whether he has already attained to the resurrection?
roberty bob said,

December 4, 2014 at 11:01 pm

to # 98

I can’t help but laugh, Kevin.

I have never said nor implied that I believe Christ helps me save myself. Jesus is the only true Savior and Lord. I believe that he was crucified for our sins and raised to life for our justification.

Why is it troubling to you that I would obey the Lord out of love for him, and for all he had done for me? That should not trouble you at all. You assume [for reasons unknown to me] that I am trying to earn merits to attain unto eternal life when, in fact, I give no thought to merits at all. I am at peace with God, and consider myself his child. My aim is to please God, and live a life that is worthy of the gospel call. You also make the effort to follow Jesus and to pursue holiness — probably for reasons much like my own. It is good to hear you admit to your own works and your own righteousness in a way that says that these are good things and not bad things. Yet, you are quick to condemn the works and righteousness of others as “works righteousness.” Why do you do that? Jesus was truly a righteous man, and those who live righteously are most assuredly to be reckoned righteous [Psalm 1].
Kevin Failoni said,

December 5, 2014 at 7:38 am

Roberty bob , do your workschave a role in yourvfinal justificatiin? Yes or no.
Kevin Failoni said,

December 5, 2014 at 7:48 am

Robery bob, said I dont give thoughts to merits at all. Then what are you doing in that church which clearly says salvation is parly given as a reward to THEIR merits and good works. If you are trusting Christ alone you have a responsibility to leave tgat communion immediately. That commuion’ doctrine that salvation is given to those who truly are converted to tgeir own justification and who truly merit. In the Catechism merit is defined as recompense owed. The truth is Roberty bob is you cant leave the Catholic church because apart from “the sacraments of the new law and the church you cant be saved. No one will be justified by observing the law, none.
Kevin Failoni said,

December 5, 2014 at 7:53 am

Roberty bob, The whole book of Galatians condemns the works that seek justification. The antithesis for Paul in Galatians isnt works and grace enabled works, its between hearing by faith and works.
Jason Loh said,

December 5, 2014 at 9:56 am

Amen, Brother Kevin. Amen.
Kevin Failoni said,

December 5, 2014 at 10:00 am

Robert bob said ” I have never said or impliedvtgat Christ helps me save myself” But your in a church that teaches you save yourself. Ya you get thecspecial juju, but if you dont get ther, you dont get there. Your not justified by faith, but faith as it is activated by your being, doing, loving. And you have Purgatory to help you work it out, where the real special saints who had to much righteousness, their merits are thrown in a blob with Christ’s and are IMPUTED to you from the treasury. Trent has no problem with that kind of imputation, huh?
Kevin Failoni said,

December 5, 2014 at 10:02 am

Jason, God bless you brother, hope you are well.
Kevin Failoni said,

December 5, 2014 at 10:09 am

DeMaria, Paul says that which I was layedchold of by Christ. He doesnt call his sin dung but hhis righteouness. He hasnt attained it yet because he isnt dead. But he is attaining it like the gentiles in Romans 9: 32, by faith. ” The righteous shall LIVE by faith.”
roberty bob said,

December 5, 2014 at 11:37 am

Hi Kevin,

I will make some comments and try to answer some of your questions.

In 2 Corinthians 5:10 the Apostle Paul says, “For we must all have our lives laid open before the Tribunal of Christ, where each must receive what is due to him for his conduct in the body, good or bad.” [NEB]

And in Romans 2:13 the Apostle Paul says, “It is not by hearing the law, but by doing it, that men will be justified before God.”

I do not see these text as being in conflict with other texts which proclaim that a man is justified by faith. I do see these the above texts proclaiming that a man’s conduct gives evidence of whether he has faith or not. A man with faith will do what is right in the sight of the Lord; he will do what the law requires. A man who does evil in the sight of the Lord and sins unrepentantly with no regard for the law’s righteous requirements clearly lacks faith and is not justified.

So, do works have a role in my final justification? It is clear from the above mentioned texts that at the Tribunal of Christ [the Final Judgment on the Last Day] every man’s life will be laid open, and his deeds / works will be judged. I guess that the role of works is prove or disprove the genuineness of my faith. I don’t want to have a dead faith now, do I? I want to have a living faith that keeps active in doing the works that are pleasing to God. In Galatians 6, the Apostle Paul says “God is not to be fooled; a man reaps what he sows. If he sows seed in the field of his lower nature, he will reap from it a harvest of corruption, but if he sows in the field of the Spirit, the Spirit will bring him a harvest of eternal life.” So, says Paul . . . “So let us never tire of doing good, for if we do not slacken our efforts we shall in due time reap our harvest.”

Surely, you don’t find this heretical or objectionable. Or, do you?
Kevin Failoni said,

December 5, 2014 at 12:32 pm

Roberty bob, hi, I hope you are well. Romans 2:13 makes the statement that doers of the law will be justified and not hearers. But he doesent say that they will be justified by doing the law. Because in chapter 3 hecsays all are shut up by the law and no one will be justified by observing the law. Why? The law requires perfection, Galatians 3:10.Paul said in Philipians 3 he was blameless before the law, and yet did not want to be found in that righteouesness but the one that comes from God by faith in Christ, in Him, Christ’s righteouness. Remember the greatest but ever written, Romans 3:20 ” but now apartvfrom the law the righteouness of God has been revealed. Romans 2 must be understood in the context of the first 3 chapters and the jealosy metaphor that runs thru the OT, Jesus in the gospels, and here with Paul who got his gospel frm Jesus. He is making the Jews jealous by saying the gentiles ( those saved) keep the law better than you do. The very things they were condemning the gentiles they did themselves, which brings verse 13. As regards the verse in Corinthians, certanly our lives will be layed bare before on judgment day and we will be rewarded based on our life, but not in regard to our justification or position before God as believers. Why? John 5: 24 says we have passed out of judgment and death into life. We have been transfered from the domain of darkness into the kingdom of light. We have been justified 5:1. It is God who justifies, who can bring a charge againstvGod’s elect. We are covered by the perfect righteousness of Christ that allows us to pss through. I am positionallyno more righteous today then I will be at judgment. But my works will be tested and rewarded as such. But salvation is from the Lord. Jeremiah 23 ” the Lord is my righteounes. And thats why Christians have the peace offered in 5:1 that the Catholic doesnt have. And for that reason alone that should send you packing. The bible offers peace and assurance. Gos is merciful. Nothing can separate his elect from the love of God. Not even my sin. This is th gift of eternal life. Its free, we cant earn it, and we dont deserve it. We just receive it by faith alone. John 1: 12.
Reed Here said,

December 5, 2014 at 12:49 pm

And, as Paige has politely reminded y’all, the topic of conversation here is with reference to this passage: Heb 12:26-29, and this question: “What do you think? Does this passage give us information about a future event involving the material universe, or is it conveying the earth-and-heaven-shattering nature of the already-accomplished work of Christ?”

Are your comments relevant to opining on this?
Kevin Failoni said,

December 5, 2014 at 1:42 pm

Reed, I have always believed that this referred to the nature of shaking that happened spiritually with the shaking of Judaism, Israel, with the ushering in of Christianity. It changed things violently in Judaism. Thats the whole point of the writer of Hebrews to the Jews, get your eyes off the earthly and physical, we have been ushered in a a spiritual heavenly Kingdom. The Gospel shook from heaven. Thats why Roman Catholicism is in my opinion a return to Judaism and a rejection of faith and the New covenant where we are told to set our minds on heavily things and the hope of the return of Christ. In the RC Christ comes out of His glorified state back to earth to be a part of OT sacrificial system. The need for the physical is lack of faith. Certainly God uses physical things like water, bread, wine. But we have been incorporated into His body thru the Spirit. Augustine said we have been deprived of the body of Christ until he returns. The Spirit gives life, the flesh profits nothing. The things i speak to you are Spirit and life.
De Maria said,

December 5, 2014 at 6:45 pm

Reed,

In my opinion, Heb 12:26-29 have to do with the ramifications of not accepting and not being grateful for the great gift that God has given us in the New Testament. This gift is described in vs 18-25. The shaking has to do with a warning not to offend the One who has shaken the foundations of the earth, with His voice. I believe this is a recurring theme in the book of Hebrews as I have shown in previous messages.
roberty bob said,

December 5, 2014 at 7:34 pm

in reply to #115, Kevin . . .

It is interesting to me that Paul the Apostle self-identified as a Pharisee well into his Christian ministry [see Acts 23:6]. Not only that, but he kept the Sabbath and the Jewish feasts. Paul regarded Jesus as the one who, by virtue of his death and resurrection, fulfilled Israel’s hope. I do not believe that Paul regarded Jesus as the founder of a new religion commonly called Christianity. Remember that there is one tree with one common root [one true Faith going back to the beginning]; those branches who will not abide the Faith are lopped off to make room for those branches who will abide in the Faith. Jesus commended the man Nathaniel for being a true Israelite — who lived out his faith with integrity and transparency.

So, the problem was not with the earthly and material aspects of Jewish religious observance, but with the refusal of the Jewish authorities [the priests and teachers] and their followers to receive their long-promised Savior and King, who would rule by his Word and Spirit. In Christ Jesus a new covenant was put into effect which rendered the old covenant obsolete. Israel’s big sin was their unwillingness accept the terms of this new covenant and to follow the Captain of their Salvation into the kingdom God had prepared from the foundation of the world.

So, the case being made in the Epistle to the Hebrews is that since this new covenant has been revealed in Jesus Christ, God’s Son — since He is the King of Heaven who speaks with final authority [Moses was only a servant in the House of God; Jesus is the son, the heir to the House], you must listen now to the son!
Kevin Failoni said,

December 5, 2014 at 8:42 pm

Robert bob, yes Hebrews says a new covenat has come with a permanent Priest who intercedes at hi altar in heaven for us. it perfected us, and put sin away capter 9,10. Listen to 10:10: By this will we havevbeen sanctified thru the offering of the body of Christ once for all” please notice the past tense of sanctification by one finished offering. The old has become obselete, the new has come. It is finished, no b eed for sacerdotal salvation earning one’s salvation. We are reconciled andvjustified by faith in the blood already shed. Thecrighteouscshall live by faith. And sacraments take their rightful place as grace for the weak, and not meritvfor the strong.
De Maria said,

December 5, 2014 at 10:13 pm

Kevin Failoni said,
December 5, 2014 at 8:42 pm

Robert bob, yes Hebrews says a new covenat has come with a permanent Priest who intercedes at hi altar in heaven for us. it perfected us, and put sin away capter 9,10. Listen to 10:10:
By this will we havevbeen sanctified thru the offering of the body of Christ once for all” please notice the past tense of sanctification by one finished offering.

Understand the terminology, “once for all”. In Hebrew tradition, sacrifices were immolated and consumed. Jesus Christ was immolated once in order that His sacrifice would be consumed by all, throughout time. It is now our part to consume Him in accordance to His instructions:

John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

The old has become obselete, the new has come. It is finished, no b eed for sacerdotal salvation earning one’s salvation.

By sacerdotal salvation, I suppose you mean that the Priest of the NT may not represent Christ. But Scripture proves you wrong:

2 Corinthians 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

We are reconciled andvjustified by faith in the blood already shed.

and the only place to receive that Blood is in the Holy Eucharistic Cup.

Thecrighteouscshall live by faith.

And one can not be righteous if he lives in sin. And sin is the transgression of the Law. Therefore, only doers of the law will be justified by God.

And sacraments take their rightful place as grace for the weak, and not meritvfor the strong.

The grace of God, which we receive through the Sacraments, make the weak, strong, so that they may pay the debt of love that they owe the Spirit:

Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

And the most important of all the Sacraments. The Source and Summit of our Faith, is the Holy Eucharist. This is why there is no more sacrifice for our sins if we neglect the Sacrifice of the Altar, because it is the only sacrifice which remains. If you neglect the Eucharist, there remains no more sacrifice for your sins. And worst of all, you offend Our God.

Hebrews 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Kevin Failoni said,

December 6, 2014 at 12:14 am

DeMaria, unfortunately this sacrifice was done once and perfected us, it put sin away. It is finished. There are no more sacrifices for sin, no immolations. Paul says in chapter 6 of Romans He is to never die again, and Revelations 1:17 He said ” I was dead and now I live forever more. There is no evidence of transubstantiation or the bread being sacrificed for sin in the early church. Please check out a site called one fold blog. You missed the verse in John 6 ” it is the Spirit who gives life, the flesh profits nothing, the words I speak to you are spirit and life. So you have fallen into the same trap of unbelief DeMaria as the people who walked away in unbelief because they took Him literally. Eating his flesh and drinking his blood was coming and believing. You should be concerned about the real presence in you thru faith in his blood for the remission of your sins rather than the real presence in the bread which can’t save you. The sacrifice for sins was the not yet glorified blood on the cross not the bread of a supper at a table in His glorified state. Our sins have been forgiven, all of them. Acts 10:43. You said ” so they may pay the debt of love they owe the Spirit” Sad religion.
De Maria said,

December 6, 2014 at 4:24 pm

Kevin Failoni said,
December 6, 2014 at 12:14 am

DeMaria, unfortunately this sacrifice was done once and perfected us, it put sin away. It is finished. There are no more sacrifices for sin, no immolations.

There is one Sacrifice. And we must participate in it.

1 Corinthians 5:…. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 8 Therefore let us keep the feast,….

Paul says in chapter 6 of Romans He is to never die again, and Revelations 1:17 He said ” I was dead and now I live forever more.

And He was sacrificed upon Calvary and we participate in that Sacrifice.

There is no evidence of transubstantiation or the bread being sacrificed for sin in the early church.

There is His Word. We step by faith and not by sight. Jesus Christ said He would give us the bread which is His flesh and we believe Him.

Please check out a site called one fold blog. You missed the verse in John 6 ” it is the Spirit who gives life, the flesh profits nothing, the words I speak to you are spirit and life.

Let me explain that one to you.

The Spirit gives life because He is speaking of the Holy Spirit of God. It is the Holy Spirit of God which gives life to the world. And Jesus Christ is one with that Spirit.

THE flesh profits nothing because sin is in the flesh. As the Scripture says:

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

the words I speak to you are spirit and life. Because Jesus Christ is one God with the Spirit of God that gives life and HIS FLESH is infused with the grace of the Holy Spirit which gives life. And it is by eating His Flesh and drinking His Blood that you can receive the Holy Spirit of God and be transformed in the image of the Son of God.

That is what that means, Kevin. It is blasphemous for any man to say that Christ’s flesh profits nothing. Yet, I know that this is a Protestant doctrine because I have heard many repeat those words of yours. How sad.

So you have fallen into the same trap of unbelief DeMaria as the people who walked away in unbelief because they took Him literally.

You have that backwards, Kev. Those people walked away in unbelief. I stay, because I believe.

YOU, Kevin, follow those unbelievers. Because, with them, you say,

John 6:60 This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

And you deny the Word of God. Then you follow it up claiming that His flesh profits nothing. And you tread under the Body of Christ which was sacrificed upon the Cross for your sins.

Eating his flesh and drinking his blood was coming and believing. You should be concerned about the real presence in you thru faith in his blood for the remission of your sins rather than the real presence in the bread which can’t save you. The sacrifice for sins was the not yet glorified blood on the cross not the bread of a supper at a table in His glorified state. Our sins have been forgiven, all of them. Acts 10:43. You said ” so they may pay the debt of love they owe the Spirit” Sad religion.

On the contrary, the Catholic Church understands the Word of God and Teaches it infallibly. It is Jesus Christ who said:

John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

And it is Scripture which says:

John 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. 13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Christ died for us. Therefore, we owe Him our lives.

1 John 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

Only the ungrateful do not wish to pay Him back.

3 comments:

AnonymousJanuary 28, 2015 at 8:28 AM
Wow! This was a fantastic dialogue! I'm utterly amazed though at how a reformed can read the Scriptures and come away with their beliefs. I think they are too focused on Calvin's writings. Even then, if they truly read ALL of Calvin's writings, they would see that he begins to contradict himself over the years.

All of you who defend our Faith, "put on the Armor of God"

God Bless you guys! I hope Kevin will see the True Church one day.

mark thimesch
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De MariaJanuary 28, 2015 at 3:00 PM
Thanks Mark. Pray for Roberty Bob also. This is going to knock your socks off. Roberty is not a Catholic. Pray that he comes into the fold.
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AnonymousJanuary 28, 2015 at 5:11 PM
Oh Man! Are you kidding me?! Oh ho ho! I'm praying all the more now for Roberty Bob!

Keep it up De Maria!

mark thimesch
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Wednesday, January 28, 2015

Hebrews 12

De Maria said,

Jason Loh said,

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Vincent said,

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