Over at Shameless Popery, Ken commented in the
I disagree with that illustration also Ken.
Agree. I realize that Protestants believe in God and desire to obey God. Just as do Catholics.
I disagree with you there. I don't believe that any Protestant submits to the local church and overseer in accordance to the Teaching of Scripture. This is what Scripture says regarding obedience to your Rulers in the Church:
Hebrews 13:17King James Version (KJV)
17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
To which overseer do you submit and obey with the firm knowledge that they watch over your soul and give an account to God? You don't believe in confessing to human beings. Therefore, you don't give an account to any man so that he may then give an account to God. Because you don't believe, as Scripture teaches, that the Church represents God.
2 Corinthians 5:20King James Version (KJV)
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
We don't believe our local rulers are infallible either. But the Magisterial Church teaching in union with the Pope and the Bishops in matters of Church and morals. Or the Pope, teaching the entire Church from the See of Peter.
Those are the conditions for infallibility.
That's another point at which we disagree. It forces everyone of you to judge the merit of your minister. But Scripture says:
1 Corinthians 4:2-4King James Version (KJV)
2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful. 3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. 4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
And again:
Romans 14:4
Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
You can't read anyone's heart, therefore you can't judge their holiness. You can't even judge your own. That is why you need an entity outside of you to pray for you in Christ's stead.
Protestant exegesis is flawed. You don't understand Scripture because you have cast aside the Traditions of Jesus Christ which are the basis of the New Testament. Jesus Christ taught and commanded the Church to teach what He taught. It is based upon His Teachings that the New Testament is written. But, Protestants, for the most part, have cast those Traditions aside and interpreted the Scriptures according to their own whims. That is why you have so many denominations today.
Lots of members is not the point. What does your tradition teach? Does it teach what Scripture truly says or are you following traditions of men?
My opinion is that you follow traditions of men. For instance. When we say that the Church speaks for God, Protestants reply, "Blasphemy!" No man can speak for God. When we say that you must confess your sins to a priest, Protestants object, "Blasphemy! We won't submit to any man!"
But Scripture is clear!
2 Corinthians 5:20King James Version (KJV)
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
Again, you are judging yourself. But we also judge by your fruits. Look at the thousands of dissenting denominations which are the result of your theology.
Yeah, look back at Church history and notice that the one, holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church has stood for 2000 years. Longer than any man made institution. And it has weathered every storm producing saints in every generation and continues strong.
But if you continue to look at history from Satan's point of view, you will revile the institution which Jesus Christ established because Satan has put that in your mind. He wants you to reject Christ and the Church which He established and in doing so promised that it would stand for all time.
Matthew 16:18King James Version (KJV)
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
You go ahead and deny the promise of Christ. But we stand with Him and believe Him.
Again, because you don't understand Scripture nor the power of God, you don't understand that Jesus Christ established the Papal office and sat upon it, Simon Bar Jonah to be the Shepherd of His flock:
John 21:17King James Version (KJV)
17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
St. Cyprian was not a Pope nor was he talking about the Pope. If read in context with his other writings concerning Papal authority, St. Cyprian meant that no other Bishop could confer on himself authority over Bishops, because that was already conferred upon the Pope by Christ. Example:
"[After quoting Matthew 16:18f; John 21:15ff]...On him [Peter] He builds the Church, and to him He gives the command to feed the sheep; and although He assigned a like power to all the Apostles, yet he founded a single Chair, and He established by His own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was; but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one Chair. So too, all are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the Apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?" (Cyprian, The Unity of the Catholic Church [first edition] 4, c. AD 251)
That's not true. St. Clement, the third Pope in Church history, very clearly wrote with understanding of the authority which He wielded.
Clement of Rome
Accept our counsel and you will have nothing to regret. . . . If anyone disobeys the things which have been said by him [Jesus] through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in no small danger. We, however, shall be innocent of this sin and will pray with entreaty and supplication that the Creator of all may keep unharmed the number of his elect (Letter to the Corinthians 58:2, 59:1[A.D. 95]).
Whether you are a true believer or not, is God's to judge. Not you.
I'm not sure what you're saying there. Are you agreeing that following your private judgement of Scripture is the exalting of your own mind?
I agree.
The Catholic Church speaks for Christ in this world. And if you have in Christ, you would have faith in the Church He established and commanded to Teach and make disciples of the world in His name:
Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
There is no way that anything we do can exalt Mary more than God has already done. All that we, Catholics, can do is obey and honor that which God has done in Mary. <a href="http://washedsanctifiedandjustified.blogspot.com/2011/08/in-praise-of-mary.html">Praise Mary</a>
They are representations of those whom God loves. Much like pictures of your loved ones in your wallet.
The New Testament is a <a href="https://catholicbibletalk.wordpress.com/2014/12/27/prayer-to-the-saints-in-the-new-covenant/">New Dispensation</a>. We walk amongst the Saints and Christ has shown us that we can communicate with them.
Relics have been used from apostolic times.
Acts 19:12
So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.
Christ established the Doctrine of indulgences:
Matthew 6:20
But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
Purgatory is the spiritual prison spoken of in Scripture:
1 Peter 3:19
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
It is recorded in Scripture that Jesus Christ would give us the bread which is His flesh.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
Jesus Christ taught about that as well:
Matthew 19:21
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
Matt 16:18-19
1 Timothy 4:14
Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.
Ephesians 5:26
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Yes. It is. It is the same mistake which the Israelites made when they decided to rebel against the Son of David and establish their own kingdoms.
Those things are biblical. But your hermeneutic is to put your mind above God's wisdom. Therefore, you discarded the plum line which Jesus Christ established that you would always be able to understand the Scripture correctly.
Yeah, they are there. But you don't recognize them because you are in rebellion with Christ.
Again, you consider them mistakes because you have set aside God's word and imposed your own.
No. It is arrogant to continue to use one's mind when it has been shown to be in disagreement with the mind of Christ.
It is arrogance that puts you at variance with Christ. Christ sent the Church to Teach and you reject the Church, therefore, you reject Christ.
Luke 10:16
He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
The Protestant Fallacy That Threatens to Undermine Christianity
Ken wrote: January 10, 2015 at 10:26 AMI don't agree with the acid illustration
I disagree with that illustration also Ken.
it is not that way for true believers (true sheep, elect, regenerated people). There are many Evangelical Protestants (Baptists, Presbyterians, conservative Anglicans, conservative Lutherans, others) who have true faith in Christ and trust in God and the Scriptures as infallible (hold on the 2 aspects of faith that you discussed),
Agree. I realize that Protestants believe in God and desire to obey God. Just as do Catholics.
and also submit to their local church and elders/overseers/pastors,
I disagree with you there. I don't believe that any Protestant submits to the local church and overseer in accordance to the Teaching of Scripture. This is what Scripture says regarding obedience to your Rulers in the Church:
Hebrews 13:17King James Version (KJV)
17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
To which overseer do you submit and obey with the firm knowledge that they watch over your soul and give an account to God? You don't believe in confessing to human beings. Therefore, you don't give an account to any man so that he may then give an account to God. Because you don't believe, as Scripture teaches, that the Church represents God.
2 Corinthians 5:20King James Version (KJV)
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
but don't have to believe that they are infallible,
We don't believe our local rulers are infallible either. But the Magisterial Church teaching in union with the Pope and the Bishops in matters of Church and morals. Or the Pope, teaching the entire Church from the See of Peter.
Those are the conditions for infallibility.
but trust their ministry through their godly character
That's another point at which we disagree. It forces everyone of you to judge the merit of your minister. But Scripture says:
1 Corinthians 4:2-4King James Version (KJV)
2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful. 3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. 4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
And again:
Romans 14:4
Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
You can't read anyone's heart, therefore you can't judge their holiness. You can't even judge your own. That is why you need an entity outside of you to pray for you in Christ's stead.
and exegesis.
Protestant exegesis is flawed. You don't understand Scripture because you have cast aside the Traditions of Jesus Christ which are the basis of the New Testament. Jesus Christ taught and commanded the Church to teach what He taught. It is based upon His Teachings that the New Testament is written. But, Protestants, for the most part, have cast those Traditions aside and interpreted the Scriptures according to their own whims. That is why you have so many denominations today.
Lots of regular church members rely on the pastors-teachers-elders to interpret the Bible and sit under their teaching. (Ephesians 4:11-12; Acts 14:23; Titus 1:5-7; 1 Peter 5:1-4; Acts 20:17, 28)
Lots of members is not the point. What does your tradition teach? Does it teach what Scripture truly says or are you following traditions of men?
My opinion is that you follow traditions of men. For instance. When we say that the Church speaks for God, Protestants reply, "Blasphemy!" No man can speak for God. When we say that you must confess your sins to a priest, Protestants object, "Blasphemy! We won't submit to any man!"
But Scripture is clear!
2 Corinthians 5:20King James Version (KJV)
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
We can use our minds to discern; the spiritual (2 Cor. 2:14) and mature (Hebrews 5:14) person can discern. "Let each person be convinced in his own mind" (Romans 14:5)
Again, you are judging yourself. But we also judge by your fruits. Look at the thousands of dissenting denominations which are the result of your theology.
We have the advantage now of looking back on church history and can easily see that the Roman Catholic is not infallible and the Pope is not either.
Yeah, look back at Church history and notice that the one, holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church has stood for 2000 years. Longer than any man made institution. And it has weathered every storm producing saints in every generation and continues strong.
But if you continue to look at history from Satan's point of view, you will revile the institution which Jesus Christ established because Satan has put that in your mind. He wants you to reject Christ and the Church which He established and in doing so promised that it would stand for all time.
Matthew 16:18King James Version (KJV)
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
You go ahead and deny the promise of Christ. But we stand with Him and believe Him.
In fact there was no such thing as a Pope, either in Scripture, and arguably, it was not in church history in the RC sense until after 1054 in the split with the orthodox.
Again, because you don't understand Scripture nor the power of God, you don't understand that Jesus Christ established the Papal office and sat upon it, Simon Bar Jonah to be the Shepherd of His flock:
John 21:17King James Version (KJV)
17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
The whole Papal claim is completely anachronistic. Even Cyprian and 86 other bishops from all over the Mediterranean Christian world agreed that Stephen, bishop of Rome, around 255-258 AD was wrong to claim he was "the bishop of bishops".
St. Cyprian was not a Pope nor was he talking about the Pope. If read in context with his other writings concerning Papal authority, St. Cyprian meant that no other Bishop could confer on himself authority over Bishops, because that was already conferred upon the Pope by Christ. Example:
"[After quoting Matthew 16:18f; John 21:15ff]...On him [Peter] He builds the Church, and to him He gives the command to feed the sheep; and although He assigned a like power to all the Apostles, yet he founded a single Chair, and He established by His own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was; but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one Chair. So too, all are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the Apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?" (Cyprian, The Unity of the Catholic Church [first edition] 4, c. AD 251)
It seems that Leo 1 (440-461 AD), and Gregory 1 (600 AD) are the earliest bishops of Rome that really come close to claiming and exercising universal jurisdiction, but the east was still regarding the bishop of Rome as "first among equals" in honor, not in jurisdictional authority to dictate to other churches. the Eastern Orthodox to this day still object to the claims of Rome.
That's not true. St. Clement, the third Pope in Church history, very clearly wrote with understanding of the authority which He wielded.
Clement of Rome
Accept our counsel and you will have nothing to regret. . . . If anyone disobeys the things which have been said by him [Jesus] through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in no small danger. We, however, shall be innocent of this sin and will pray with entreaty and supplication that the Creator of all may keep unharmed the number of his elect (Letter to the Corinthians 58:2, 59:1[A.D. 95]).
The acid illustration may work for apostates and tares in the churches that eventually leave and leave the faith and prove they were never believers in the first place (Matthew 7:23; 1 John 2:19; Hebrews 6:4-6; 10:26-30), but it does not apply for true believers.
Whether you are a true believer or not, is God's to judge. Not you.
That (going into unbelief or liberalism (denying inerrancy and miracles), etc.) is exalting one's own mind and reason and private judgement above God and the Scriptures,
I'm not sure what you're saying there. Are you agreeing that following your private judgement of Scripture is the exalting of your own mind?
I agree.
but to be able to think and discern and judge that the Roman Catholic Church is wrong about many things
The Catholic Church speaks for Christ in this world. And if you have in Christ, you would have faith in the Church He established and commanded to Teach and make disciples of the world in His name:
Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
- over-exalting of Mary and the practices and dogmas surrounding her,
There is no way that anything we do can exalt Mary more than God has already done. All that we, Catholics, can do is obey and honor that which God has done in Mary. <a href="http://washedsanctifiedandjustified.blogspot.com/2011/08/in-praise-of-mary.html">Praise Mary</a>
statues,
They are representations of those whom God loves. Much like pictures of your loved ones in your wallet.
prayers to dead saints,
The New Testament is a <a href="https://catholicbibletalk.wordpress.com/2014/12/27/prayer-to-the-saints-in-the-new-covenant/">New Dispensation</a>. We walk amongst the Saints and Christ has shown us that we can communicate with them.
use of relics in worship,
Relics have been used from apostolic times.
Acts 19:12
So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.
indulgences,
Christ established the Doctrine of indulgences:
Matthew 6:20
But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
Purgatory,
Purgatory is the spiritual prison spoken of in Scripture:
1 Peter 3:19
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
Transubstantiation,
It is recorded in Scripture that Jesus Christ would give us the bread which is His flesh.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
treasury of merit,
Jesus Christ taught about that as well:
Matthew 19:21
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
the Pope,
Matt 16:18-19
NT office of priests,
1 Timothy 4:14
Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.
ex opere operato powers,
Ephesians 5:26
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
etc. It is not rebellion nor trusting in our minds over God's,
Yes. It is. It is the same mistake which the Israelites made when they decided to rebel against the Son of David and establish their own kingdoms.
because those things are clearly not Biblical
Those things are biblical. But your hermeneutic is to put your mind above God's wisdom. Therefore, you discarded the plum line which Jesus Christ established that you would always be able to understand the Scripture correctly.
nor are they even in the earliest centuries of Christian history.
Yeah, they are there. But you don't recognize them because you are in rebellion with Christ.
(The earliest mistakes were calling presbyters priests, as was the mono-episcopate, baptismal regeneration and infant baptism, and penance over repentance.)
Again, you consider them mistakes because you have set aside God's word and imposed your own.
The method of your argumentation seems to be saying that it is arrogant that we can use our minds to judge and discern and think. I disagree.
No. It is arrogant to continue to use one's mind when it has been shown to be in disagreement with the mind of Christ.
We can have humble confidence in God and the Scriptures, (holding on to both aspects of faith that you mentioned, without the acid eating through), and have local church authority also and submit to elders-teachers-pastors. It is not arrogance to have confidence that we can think and discern and do exegesis and submit to local church Evangelical Protestant authorities.
It is arrogance that puts you at variance with Christ. Christ sent the Church to Teach and you reject the Church, therefore, you reject Christ.
Luke 10:16
He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
Awesome!!!!!
ReplyDeleteDe Maria does a great job. :-)
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