Sunday, April 26, 2015

Born again of water and spirit

Once again I find myself blocked.  I tried to comment on this blog, but it won't go in.  It tells me to do the word verification, but I don't see a word verification???

Oh well.

<b>#703  Edward Osiecki - Fort Mill, South CarolinaTo ALL,
Jesus Teaches Nicodemus about being *Born Again* per John 3:1-21 (NIV)
v. 1 "Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council."</b>

Nicodemus was to become a secret follower of Jesus Christ.  He is one of them who took His body off the Cross (John 19:39).

<b>v. 2 "He came to Jesus at night and said, 'Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.'”</b>

Nicodemus says, "Teacher, we know that you are God's Messiah because of the miracles that you perform.  Only those whom God loves can do what you do."

<b>v. 3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.” </b>

Jesus responds, "that is very true.  In fact, no one can go to heaven unless God regenerates them in His image.  They literally must be born again, spiritually.

<b>(Jesus does NOT say how one becomes born again, He will later on.)</b>

You're a bit confused on this issue.
1.  This is St. John's recounting of the conversation.
2.  Whether Jesus explicitly mentions baptism is not recorded.
3.  What is recorded is that St. John connects being "born again" with "baptism" in this chapter.  Because the very next thing he talks about is Jesus and the Apostles baptizing in the Jordan. (v. 23).

<b> (Then Nicodemus asks in v4)

v. 4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter second time into their mother’s womb to be born!” (The question being asked is about a person's BODY going back into their mother's womb.) (So Jesus replies accordingly about a BODY in v5.)

v. 5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit." (Jesus speaks of the dual parts of a BODY, that is, water = physical birth and the Spirit part.) (Jesus defines the water/physical part as flesh in v6)</b>

You're mistaken.  First of all, you've ignored these words:

Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Jesus is speaking metaphorically on some aspects of this Teaching.

1st.  Water  metaphorically represents the Spirit (John 4:14).
2nd.  Water also, metaphorically represents birth.  Have you ever heard of <a href="">water breaking in child birth?</a>

Therefore, water represents both new birth and an outpouring of the Holy Spirit.

<b>v. 6 "Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit." ( Notice that Jesus had continued speaking of the dual BODY parts.) (Flesh/physical part and the spirit part of a BODY) (.e.g. the results would still be the same, if it were possible going back into a womb.)</b>

Nope.  Jesus is merely explaining that men go through two births.

1.  Birth into this life.
2.  Birth into the spiritual life when they are washed by water and spirit in Baptism.

You don't make the connection because you read the Bible and INTERPRET it.

Whereas, we don't interpret the Bible.  We are taught by the Church of which Scripture says:

Ephesians 3:10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

You see, we understand that Jesus Christ established a Church and commanded that Church to Teach.  Therefore, we listen to Christ's Church.

<b>v. 7 "You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’" (thus far Jesus spoke only about, the dual BODY parts, that is, water = physical birth and the body's spirit part.) ( He hasn't said how to be born again.)</b>

Yes, He has.  But you are missing that Jesus walked for three years with the Apostles, telling them precisely what He meant:

Matt 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

<b>v. 8 "The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”</b>

Again, Jesus speaks in a parable.  The wind represents the Holy Spirit.  And Jesus is saying that if you are not baptized by water, you can not be sure that you have received the Holy Spirit, because, like the wind, it blows where it will.

Jesus also says that you can't judge who has the Spirit and who doesn't.

<b> (Jesus now begins to speak about the Holy Spirit that roves through the air, seeking and convicting people of sin (John16:8). </b>

That too.  But more to the point, He is explaining that those who receive Baptism in faith will be made just.  But the Holy Spirit is not restricted to those who are Baptized with water.

<b>(Our Lord calls those who are convicted by the H.S.(Rom. 1:6) "You are among those who are called." Whose spirit will be changed. (Acts 2:39 )</b>

Interesting?  So you agree that there is an actual change in a person when one is justified?  Because most Protestants claim that we are "snow covered dung hills".  Whereas, it is Catholic Doctrine that we are actually washed of our sins and regenerated, born again, children of God.

<b> "For all whomever the Lord will call.)</b>

This is a reference to Baptism.  It is in Baptism that we are washed of our sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

<b>v. 9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked. (Nicodemus is still confused as how to become born again.) (Or what Jesus is talking about the Holy Spirit and the wind)

v.10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things?" (Jesus' reference is about the Holy Spirit by what He said in v8.) (In the O.T. the Holy Spirit wasn't poured onto everyone only onto the prophets.)</b>

Agreed.  It is a new Teaching.  The Sacraments are here being installed by Jesus Christ.  But Nicodemus does not know anything about Sacraments.

<b>v.11 "Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony." (This is self explanatory.)</b>

Personally, I think this is a reference to the Holy Trinity.  It is only the Holy Trinity who know and have seen of that which Jesus' speaks.  Remember that the Father spoke to the people when Jesus was baptized by St. John.  Saying, "This is my beloved Son, hear ye Him".  And the Holy Spirit descended from heaven in the image of a dove.

<b>v.12 "I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?" (This could mean the supernatural mystery of a person's spirit being changed.) (Simply by belief)</b>

Jesus means that He has represented heavenly things with the earthly image of "washing", "human birth", "wind".  He is explaining to Nicodemus that He is speaking to him in parables.

<b>v.13 "No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man." ( In other words, believe what I'm (Jesus) telling you since I came down from heaven.)</b>

In other words, I, Jesus, am God.

<b>v.14 "Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up," (Jesus is making a parallel between Moses' snake which was lifted up on a pole, with Himself being lifted up on the cross, that is, the people back there believed by faith that they wouldn't die of snake bites simply by looking at the snake on the pole, just as today's people won't die the 2nd death (Rev.20:6) who by *faith believe* in what Jesus did for them on the cross.) </b>

Absolutely!  That is why Catholics are the children of Abraham.  Because, when we approach the Sacraments, God sees our faith and credits it to us as righteousness.

<b>(They did nothing only believed,</b>

Exactly!  In the Sacraments, Christ washes our souls with the living water of the Holy Spirit.  Endowing our hearts with His sanctifying grace unto everlasting life.

<b> as well as, today's people can do nothing accept believe,</b>

Those who believe in Christ, must obey.  If they do not obey, they do not believe and will not be saved:

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

<b> as a result, by faith our sins are forgiven by Jesus' blood (Mat.26:28), </b>

Amen!  If we repent and turn to Him doing works, worthy of repentance:

Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

<b>by faith believing in Jesus, they receive the Holy Spirit (Gal.3:14), </b>

In Baptism:
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

<b>those who receive Jesus, they become the children of God (John1:12) and are *born again* (1Pet.1:23) (James 1:18)</b>


<b>v.15 " that everyone who BELIEVES may have eternal life in him.” (1John 5:13)</b>

If they keep the Commandments:
1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

<b>v.16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever BELIEVES in him shall not perish but have eternal life."</b>

Those who believe in Jesus Christ, obey His words:
John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

<b>v.17 "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to SAVE the world through him."</b>

For those who turn to Him and live:
2 Corinthians 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

<b>v.18 "Whoever BELIEVES in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son." ( Please Note! It's by *belief.* Nowhere, in this entire dialog is water baptism is mentioned, which makes FALSE the RCC interpretation of v5 meaning water baptism,</b>

On the contrary, what you fail to recognize is that it is the Catholic Church who wrote those words.  Jesus Christ did not write the New Testament.  He established the Catholic Church and commanded her to Teach what He commanded (Matt 28:19-20).

The Catholic Church then wrote the New Testament based upon these Teachings.  It is these Teachings, which are the basis of the New Testament.

<b> rather than the dual parts of a body, which corresponds to Nicodemus' question of a body going back into a mother's womb.) ( And verified and defined in the following v6 about a body *flesh and Spirit* and not about water baptism.)</b>

It is precisely about water Baptism.  That is why St. John moves from the Nicodemus dialogue, directly into Baptism in the Jordan.

<b>v.19 "This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil."
v.20 "Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed."</b>

What you don't understand, because your tradition has discarded the Traditions of Jesus Christ, is that this is another reference to Baptism.  Baptism is called "enlightenment".  Those who refuse Baptism, refuse to be enlightened by Christ.

<b>v.21 "But whoever lives by the TRUTH (John 17:17) comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what He has done has been done through God."</b>

The Church is the Pillar of Truth (1 Tim 3:15).  Those who live by the Truth are members of the Church and come to the light by virtue of their enlightenment in Baptism.


If you want to be certain to receive the Holy Spirit, you need to believe and be baptized:

Mark 16:16King James Version (KJV)

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Otherwise, the Holy Spirit blows where it will.  Unless you are baptized, you will not know if you received the Holy Spirit.  Your proclaiming yourself faithful, does not make you faithful.  You proclaiming that you believe, does not mean that actually believe.  God is your judge:

Matthew 7:21King James Version (KJV)

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

<b>God Bless,
ED O.</b>

God bless you, as well,

De Maria


  1. I sure hope you can post this over at CA blogsite. Although I still think Ed will debate what you say since he makes the claim all the early Church Fathers are misquoting Jesus and are apostate.

    God Bless

    1. I did it! I had to take out all the html and it posted. I hope he responds.

      God bless you as well.

    2. I SAW IT! Great job! Now I know your real name ;-)

      God Bless!

    3. Lol! You mean my "secret identity". Kind of like Peter Parker, Clark Kent, Bruce Wayne, etc.

  2. Also, have you noticed that Ed's interpretation would also condemn babies, children under the age of reason, and those who are mentally not capable of "believing" in Jesus Christ since, according to Ed's interpretations, one has to not only believe in Jesus Christ, but speak the sinners prayer, be repentant, and accept Jesus into their heart. How can such people do this if they don't understand Jesus? This is one of the traps I would like to spring on Ed because if he admits that infants are not destined to hell, then he is admitting that there IS a second way of salvation, which he denies.

    He also has a very serious contradiction when he argues about the "dual parts of man - water and spirit". According to Genesis, God made man and then made him "hu-man" or "divine man" by breathing into man, a soul. Man IS made of two parts - flesh and soul. So this leads me to a question: How can man be born twice "spiritually" if you separate the two components that initially made man in the first place?

    Man has a dual nature, but based on Ed's reasoning and interpretation, we only have ONE nature and don't/can't receive the second nature until we repent, believe in Jesus, speak the sinner's prayer (which doesn't exist) and accept Him into your hearts? Do we receive two "spirits", or is Jesus really talking about a whole new birth that involves the use of two natures - water (a physical element) and the Holy Spirit? Ed's argument basically has Jesus claiming that man is not born with a soul, since Ed claims that being "born of water" only represents the "flesh" and that is what Jesus means when he uses the word "water" in that particular verse.

    No one has addressed Ed on this yet and I don't know if I am explaining myself very well here either. But basically, Ed's interpretation doesn't fit and is a complete contradiction to the dual nature of man. Am I making any sense here? :-(

    If you noticed, Ed just attacked Matthew's last posting with insults and false accusations against the Early Church Fathers. I don't know which bible he is using but it ain't a normal protest-ant bible.

    God Bless and good night!

    1. I know what you mean, but we need to work on your terminology so that things don't get confusing. For instance, you said:

      Man has a dual nature,

      But the Catechism says:

      365 The unity of soul and body is so profound that one has to consider the soul to be the "form" of the body:234 i.e., it is because of its spiritual soul that the body made of matter becomes a living, human body; spirit and matter, in man, are not two natures united, but rather their union forms a single nature.

      Jesus, on the other hand, does have two natures:

      481 Jesus Christ possesses two natures, one divine and the other human, not confused, but united in the one person of God's Son.

      I've only read the one comment from Ed that I addressed. I'll have to go back and see what else he's written.

      God bless you too, Mark.

    2. Ah ha! See? I need a lot of work. Thanks for pointing out my error.


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