Saturday, April 4, 2015

I have absolute confidence in God. Because of my absolute confidence in God, I obey His Church, all the time.

Blogger De Maria said...
Hi again,

You said:

Godismyjudge said...
Hi De Maria,

Thanks for your thoughtful response.

You're welcome.

I suppose I should start with defining sola scriptura. Here's a famous quote from Luther:

Is it fair of me to ask why you didn't provide a definition from Scripture?

"Unless I am convinced by the testimony of the Scriptures or by clear reason (for I do not trust either in the pope or in councils alone, since it is well known that they have often erred and contradicted themselves),

What he seems to say here is that he doesn't believe the Church because he believes the Church errs in doctrine. But I see Scripture saying that the Church teaches the wisdom of God (Eph 3:10). And that the Church is the pillar of truth (1 Tim 3:15). Which I understand to mean that the Church is infallible.

So, by which authority does he discard the authority of the Church? Certainly not Scripture (Matt 18:17).

I am bound by the Scriptures I have quoted

I'd be interested to see those Scriptures.

and my conscience is captive to the Word of God.

I wonder how he means, since Scripture tells him to obey those who rule over him in the Church (Heb 13:17). Yet he did exactly the opposite.

I cannot and will not recant anything, since it is neither safe nor right to go against conscience.

THAT is true. Nor am I capable of judging his heart. I am however, capable of comparing his teachings to the Scriptures and in my opinion, his teachings are found wanting.

May God help me. Amen."

May God help us all. Amen.

I don't really see a definition of SS in that statement though. Do you mean where he says he must be convinced by Scripture? That seems to contradict the Word of God head on. Because Scripture says:
Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

And also:
Hebrews 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

So the issue is we can believe something just because the bible says so, but we cannot believe something just because Popes and Councils say so. 

That doesn't seem to be the lesson of Scripture. Scripture says that we can believe those who taught us because we know who it is that taught us and we trust in them:
2 Tim 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

This is a reference to Tim's mom and grandma, they taught him the Scriptures. Indicating that the lessons of Scripture need to be taught:
Acts 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? 31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

Now he is not denying non-biblical sources have anything truthful to say, but he is saying his experiance with non-biblical sources tells him he has to be careful with them.

That is Catholic Teaching. That is why we test everything against Scripture, Tradition and Magisterium.

Are you careful with what Rome has to say, or do you place your absolute confidence in them?

I place my absolute confidence in the Word of God which says:
Ephesians 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

I believe the Catholic Church is the true Church, so according to Scripture, tell me, why I should doubt anything they say?

Are you in the true Church? Yet, you doubt everything your pastor says, am I right? Or perhaps you're already a pastor yourself. But you doubt everything anybody else teaches you. So, how do you apply Heb 13:7, 17 to your life? Which man of the Church do you obey and submit to?

You also said:
No question God's word can be spoken as well as written.


But if we have good reason to believe it's no longer written, those same reasons may indicate it's no longer spoken.

I prefer to believe the Scriptures I quoted above (1 Tim 3:15, Eph 3:10) and Matt 16:18 which says:

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

I believe these verses tell me that the Church will never commit error in teaching doctrine. To do so would be to succumb to the Devil.

Never the less, I am open to the idea that God's word is still spoken today, but if someone says they are speaking God's word, I will test them.

As you should. But the Protestant test amounts to this. A comparison of personal opinions.

Whereas, Scripture gives the solution for that deadend. Take your brother to the Church and have the Church decide which is wrong. When the Bishops Arius and Athanasius disagreed on what the Scriptures teach as regards the nature of Christ, who decided between the two? The Church. That is the procedure Christ instituted (Matt 18:17) and which is illustrated in practice in the Church (Gal 1:8; 2 Thess 3:6-7).

If they contradict themselves or scripture or incorrectly predict the future, we know they are not really speaking God's word.

That is correct.

I disagree that just because someone portions of the bible are for the mature, that it is imperfect.

I believe Scripture is without error in doctrine.
John 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

I do not believe that means that it is perfect since Scripture itself says it can't be understood by all.

You qualify the errors of Popes and Councils by saying they don't error when in union with the Majesterial Church". 

Correct. We have no doctrine of personal infallibility by anyone. The Popes can all err except when they preach doctrine to the Church from the chair of Peter. The Bishops can all err except when they come together in ecumenical council, united with the Pope, to agree upon the teaching of the Church.

My point was more general; we can't put absolute trust in Popes and Councils. 

The Church itself has disspelled and discounted many councils. And the Popes do not always speak officially in order to teach doctrine to the entire Church.

When is your qualification relivant, and when is it irrelivant? For example, you take Ephesians 3:10 and 1 Timothy 3:15 to mean the Church is infallable. In all things or only sometimes?

In all things having to do with Christian doctrine.

When do you place absolute confidence in your church?

I have absolute confidence in God. Because of my absolute confidence in God, I obey His Church, all the time.

As for the question "where is it written", we are looking for an absolute authority,

God is the only ABSOLUTE authority.

but not necessarilly denying that other sources are sometimes useful.

The Church teaches the absolute truth of God's revelation through her Traditions by Word and Epistle.

God be with you,

And with you. Thanks for your cordial response.


De Maria


  1. GodismyJudge said: "But if we have good reason to believe it's no longer written, those same reasons may indicate it's no longer spoken."

    OH BOY! Where to begin!

    The Word of God continues to be spoken. How else does life come into this world except that by the Word of God, which is creation and salvation? How is the universe and all we know are held together in existence, except be it by the Word of God?

    God is continuous! He is everywhere present and He knows all things. If God still has children outside His Church, then the Word is indeed still IN NEED of being spoken.

    I find "GodismyJudge" to be someone confused about the Word of God.

    1. Its funny that they claim to believe Scripture. But they don't believe Scripture where it says to obey the Church or where it says that God speaks through the Church. They only believe the Scriptures they want to believe.


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