Its a small virtual world after all. I hope you've been well.
You said,
Russell said...
Greetings,
You said, “Why not ask Mary, of all people, to pray for you, just like you’d ask me to pray for you? The answer is because it is perfectly fine to ask people on earth to pray for you, but it’s NOT scriptural to ask those who have gone on.
That is not so. It is perfectly Scriptural to ask Mary for prayer or anything we want. The principal is perfectly Scriptural although not expressly written in Scripture.
1. Jesus Christ is our example. Do you deny it? If so, I will prove it from Scripture. If not, I'll move on.
2. Jesus Christ is the son of Mary. Do you deny it? If so, I will prove it from Scripture. If not, I will move on.
3. Now then, based upon those two Biblical truths, we conclude that we can ask Mary for anything. Because, Jesus, as the son of Mary, must have asked her for everything He needed in His life. Nourishment, clothing, love. In one word, EVERYTHING. Therefore, do the same as Jesus and you will be blessed.
There are more Biblical principals which bolster this teaching.
1. The Saints in heaven are alive. John 11:26
2. We are in communion with all the Saints. Rom 12:5
3. The prayer of the righteous is very efficacious. Job 42:7-9; James 5:16-17
You asked where we (Protestants) got the idea that we should ignore Mary. No one is ignoring Mary.
When do you praise Mary? When do you pray to Mary?
But there is a very big difference between acknowledging Mary as a humble servant, as the Bible portrays her, and offering prayer (“hyperdulia,” to be exact) to her.
There's a big difference between giving Mary the type of respect (hyperdulia) which the Scriptures demonstrate and the type of rejection of her which the Protestants offer. Read more.
If there were a biblical reason to do so, then Protestants would most likely be doing it also.
There is. But since the Protestants stand in rebellion to the Church, they also reject the Mother of the Church (Rev 12:17).
But in Scripture, only God is prayed to.
In Scripture, God the Father, Himself, sends an Angel to praise Mary. And God the Holy Spirit inspires a saintly woman to praise Mary. And Mary herself declares that all generations will praise her.
You said that Catholics don’t pray TO the saints, but rather, they ask the saints to pray for them.
Correct. In the sense that we don't adore the saints as though they were deities. We simply give the honor due to them. We know the difference between God and man.
But, according to official Catholic sources, it is a fact that Catholics are indeed encouraged to pray TO the saints (e.g., the Catechism of the Catholic Church #2679; the New Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume 11, p. 673; the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia, online, under “Prayer”; Pope Pius IX’s “Ineffabilis Deus”). Anyone denying this is simply playing word games.
You. As most Protestants must play word games in order to justify their deficient theology and scholarship.
First, prayer has many meanings. It does not mean exclusively to worship. Look it up in a good dictionary.
pray verb \ˈprā\
Definition of PRAY
transitive verb
1: entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea ....
See this link on praying to the saints:....
God permitting, I will see you there. More likely, I will copy your posts and rebut them on my own blog.
Good to hear from you though. You know what? Our debates on my blog are by far the most popular webpages that I have. Of course, you and I sort of padded the number, but even if I take out our own posts, they are the most popular.
Good to speak to you again,
Sincerely,
De Maria
“Jesus Christ is our example. Do you deny it?”
ReplyDeleteAh, yes, because Jesus, the perfect Son of God, who literally walked on water and turned it into wine, surely meant for us to copy His every behavior, including asking His mom for help with mundane tasks! I can see it now: “Hey, Mary, can you pass the beans?” Truly, that’s the level of divine inspiration we’re working with here!
“Jesus Christ is the son of Mary. Do you deny it?”
Wow, you really got me there! No one has ever made that connection before. I’m shocked! But defining how Jesus relates to His earthly mother doesn’t quite give us a roadmap for how to approach her for our shopping lists, does it?
“Because, Jesus, as the son of Mary, must have asked her for everything He needed in His life.”
Yes, obviously, wild imaginations about a young Jesus asking for snacks must be the key to understanding intercession. Who needs to worry about the New Covenant, right? We can just take notes from the Holy Family’s domestic life on how to pray! Maybe next you’ll argue that we should each have our very own Mary-inspired list of daily requests.
“The Saints in heaven are alive. John 11:26”
Indeed, and they must be terribly bored just sitting there, right? I mean, isn't that the best reason to bug them with our requests? “Hey, John the Baptist, can you help me decide what to have for dinner?” Not really how the communion of saints is depicted in Scripture, but hey, let’s go with that!
“We are in communion with all the Saints. Rom 12:5”
Absolutely! And what better way to demonstrate that communion than by treating Mary like a spiritual Amazon Prime—one prayer away from fulfilling our every need? It’s almost too easy!
“The prayer of the righteous is very efficacious.”
So, we should bombard heaven with our little prayer requests? As if the Almighty needs a little sign-up sheet for what we want? I don’t recall seeing a divine suggestion box in Scripture, but maybe that’s just me!
“When do you praise Mary?”
Now, that’s a loaded question! Is there a prescribed time for that, perhaps after the morning coffee or before the evening news? Did Jesus receive a handbook on how to honor His mother while simultaneously saving the world? Must. Know. More.
“But since the Protestants stand in rebellion…”
Ah, the age-old Protestant vs. Catholic drama! Because “in rebellion” is so much more palatable than suggesting that maybe, just maybe, we have different theological conclusions based on Scripture. But hey, if calling us “rebellious” makes you feel better about your position, go right ahead!
“First, prayer has many meanings.”
Yes, it certainly does! It can mean anything from declaring your love for pizza to talking to God. But I’m wondering how the average person interprets “pray to Mary” as not an act of worship. Perhaps a dictionary could clarify this little detail?