Have you ever searched for the 5 solas in Scripture?

Bernie

NOVEMBER 20, 2014 AT 10:33 AM

A very intriguing article and thanks for posting it. As a evangelical pastor and former Catholic, I find this topic to be a provocative and critical one actually. In fact, I might add a major surprise that was omitted.
I believe reasons 7 and 8 are actually linked and by reverse order in a sense. In other words, many evangelicals that begin to study and learn more about Catholicism are questioned about their conversion to that faith, precisely because of the irreconcilable gospel difference that exists between Rome and what I would call, Biblical Christianity. The reformers and their successors articulated this well over five centuries ago.

Though evangelicalism is a more modern term, its Protestant roots which separated from Rome, did not spring up primarily due to ecclesiological differences over Mary and the Eucharist, or the Lord’s Supper. Rather, the protestant reformation occurred fundamentally, over the gospel- salvation itself. My surprise – a 13th if you will, is that more evangelicals and Catholics do not understand that which theologically divides them. The five solas of the reformation: sola scriptura (scripture alone), solus Cristus (Christ alone), sola fide (Faith alone), sola gratia (grace alone) and soli deo gloria ( for God’s glory alone). A true understanding of these doctrines will reveal to the discerning student that evangelicalism and Catholicism is incompatible and not merely a case of separate denominations.

I respectfully recommend to Mr. Lencioni and any other person seeking truth – historical and Biblical on the matter, to search and mediate on this great divide that exists. My church elders and I preached a series on the five solas on this issue this past summer in South Florida. Anyone willing to investigate it, can find it at:http://www.christcomchurch.org/roots_of_the_reformation I would love to engage with the author and anyone at all seeking to dialogue on this critical issue in love and with grace.

MY REPLY

De Maria

NOVEMBER 28, 2014 AT 9:00 AM

That is true, Bernie. But have you ever looked for the five solas in Scripture? I have. Here’s what I find.

Sola Fide, by faith alone.
James 2:224 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Sola Scriptura, by Scripture alone.
2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Solus Christus, through Christ alone.
2 Corinthians 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Sola Gratia, by grace alone.
Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Soli Deo Gloria, glory to God alone.
1 Corinthians 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, ye are God’s building.

The five solas are traditions of men which contradict the Word of God. That is why they are also incompatible with the Teachings of the Catholic Church.

Did the Messiah have to die?

With respect, we must also remember that it was God’s plan that the Messiah must die in order for the Jews to receive their promised reward.

Hebrews 9:15-17New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)

15 For this reason he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, because a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions under the first covenant.[a] 16 Where a will[b] is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. 17 For a will[c] takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.

With that in mind, one of the possibilities for which God had provided, was that faithful Jews would kill the Messiah:

Deuteronomy 13:1-5New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)

1 [a] If prophets or those who divine by dreams appear among you and promise you omens or portents, 2 and the omens or the portents declared by them take place, and they say, “Let us follow other gods” (whom you have not known) “and let us serve them,”

To the Jewish mind, Jesus was calling Himself God and they did not recognize Him. Therefore, they did right in putting Him to death.

5 But those prophets or those who divine by dreams shall be put to death for having spoken treason against the Lord your God—who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of slavery—to turn you from the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.

Therefore, some of the Jews who killed Jesus Christ, did so out of allegiance and obedience to God.

John 5:18New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)

18 For this reason the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because he was not only breaking the sabbath, but was also calling God his own Father, thereby making himself equal to God.

It was all part of God’s grand design in order to consummate the Old Testament and give the Old Testament Jews their promised reward.

John 11:49-52New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)

49 But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all! 50 You do not understand that it is better for you to have one man die for the people than to have the whole nation destroyed.” 51 He did not say this on his own, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus was about to die for the nation, 52 and not for the nation only, but to gather into one the dispersed children of God.

Absolutely true. Scripture teaches against Sola Scriptura.

De Maria has left a new comment on the post "DID THE CATHOLIC CHURCH GIVE US THE BIBLE?":

Anonymous December 31, 2014 at 11:58 AMVATICAN ADMITS ITS HATRED TO THE WORD OF GOD
"The belief in the Bible as the sole source of faith is unhistorical, illogical, fatal to the virtue of faith, and destructive of unity." -The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume XIII, "Protestantism", Section III A - Sola Scriptura ("Bible Alone"), Nihil Obstat, February 1, 1912 by Remy Lafort, D.D., Censor, Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York. (online source: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12495a.htm )

Absolutely true. Scripture teaches against Sola Scriptura.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Hebrews 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

Matthew 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

"Unfortunately many of these books were lost during the persecution of the 17th century, and only those books and ancient documents sent to the libraries of Cambridge and Geneva by Pastor Leger were perserved. The Papists took care, after every persecution, to destroy as much of the Waldensean literature as possible. ...A Short History of the Italian Waldenses

Non sequitur. If certain Catholics destroyed Waldensean liturature, so what? It is because the Catholic Church that you have the Bible which you have today.

Their refusal to surrender the scriptures was an offense that the Papacy could not tolerate. The Papacy was determined to exterminate the heretics from the face of the Earth..... ( Fox's Book Of Martyrs) ....

Fox's book of martyrs has been proved false. It is a mixture of lies, exaggerations with a bit of truth. As an example, the number of people which FBoM claimed that the Catholic Church killed did not exist upon the earth at that time.

cont'd

De Maria has left a new comment on the post "DID THE CATHOLIC CHURCH GIVE US THE BIBLE?":cont'd

"...A dead and speechless book." -Question Box, p. 67

All books are dead and speechless. Or do you claim that the Bible stands up and walks and talks to you?

(what about Hebrews 4:12 

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The Word of God is spoken by the Priests of the Catholic Church:
Hebrews 13:7King James Version (KJV)

7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

and 2 Timothy 3:16-17?)

The entire book of 2 Tim is about teaching the Word of God. 2 Tim 3:16-17 briefly mentions that the Bible can be used to supplement the teaching of the priest. But does not require it.

"The simple fact is that the Bible, like all dead letters, calls for a living interpreter." -The Faith of Millions, p. 155

Absolutely! Heretics have misinterpreted the Bible throughout history. And the Bible did not object. It was the Church which fought the heretics and defeated them.

(what about 1 John 2:27?)

1 John 2:27King James Version (KJV)

27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

1. That says nothing about Scripture.
2. Its actually about the anointing we receive in Confirmation, wherein, the Holy Spirit confers upon us the light of grace:

1303 From this fact, Confirmation brings an increase and deepening of baptismal grace:
- it roots us more deeply in the divine filiation which makes us cry, "Abba! Father!";117
- it unites us more firmly to Christ;
- it increases the gifts of the Holy Spirit in us;
- it renders our bond with the Church more perfect;118
- it gives us a special strength of the Holy Spirit to spread and defend the faith by word and action as true witnesses of Christ, to confess the name of Christ boldly, and never to be ashamed of the Cross:119

Recall then that you have received the spiritual seal, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of right judgment and courage, the spirit of knowledge and reverence, the spirit of holy fear in God's presence. Guard what you have received. God the Father has marked you with his sign; Christ the Lord has confirmed you and has placed his pledge, the Spirit, in your hearts.

 

Solomon was a foreshadowing of Jesus Christ

 De Maria said...

Tom Schuessler said...
Thanks for this. I will buy the book! Reading Walter Brueggemann's The Prophetic Imagination, he says the Solomon took down what Moses sought to build. He is critical of Solomon and his hoarding of wives, power, stored up grain, gold and slaves. How might Scott respond to Brueggemann?

I'm not sure. But I believe that St. John of the Cross and others have taught that Solomon was a foreshadowing of Jesus Christ.

1st. He is the Son of David.
2nd. He was annointed when he entered Jerusalem on King David's donkey.
3rd. Solomon's wives foreshadow our souls. We have one King, God. And we are, each and everyone of us, married to God. We are the Church:

Ephesians 5:22-24
King James Version (KJV)
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

4. Solomon is also known for his wisdom and Jesus is Wisdom incarnate.
5. The Kingdom of David is a foreshadowing of the Church and Solomon's building up of the Kingdom is what we are supposed to do with the Church:

1 Corinthians 14:12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

So, there is a great deal for which Solomon can be commended.

On the negative side however, Solomon did allow his wives to turn him into an idolater. In that sense, he is right to be critical of Solomon.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Faith vs works is a false dichotomy

 De Maria said...

Hi,

I'm not John, but I find your comment intriguing. You said:


1-on the faith v. works angle: it seems to me that the 'versus' thing is is a false dichotomy,

I agree. But I can't quite get a handle on your explanation.

If I may, I believe "faith alone" is a works theology because faith is itself a work. There's no way around it. Faith is something we do and is therefore a work.

So, faith vs works is a false dichotomy.

However, we can't get away from the fact that Sts. Paul and James both adhere to this dichotomy. So there is something special about the work of faith which makes it stand out and apart from works.

as if what we think is one part of our being and what we do is an entirely different severable part.

Well, it is. Remember when God said in Scripture:
Isaiah 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

So, there is a difference between what we think and what we actually do.

James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

This thinking is akin to dividing up the trinity into 3 Gods. The easiest resolution of this for me is to believe that faith is something you DO. Intellectual assent isn't faith, it is only the awareness that the demons have. 

That is true. But St. James equates it with faith, but makes it clear that it is a weak and superficial faith which does not avail to salvation.

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?


2-on the ordinary condition for Christians is persecution: a wise observation.

To me, persecution and suffering are two different things. Suffering, I think, is the ordinary condition. Whereas, we may or may not experience persecution in this life.

Like all others I tend to wonder why God doesn't 'do something'. Yet he calls us into a mysterious fellowship of death instead, having his 'doing' take place within our souls. It's a very helpful observation that suffering and death will accompany us anyway, regardless of our discipleship or lack thereof.

Suffering is a key to salvation. That is why, it is an ordinary or common condition in this life. We will not escape this life without suffering. If we do, wellll, Scripture says it best:

Hebrews 12:8  But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

If we want to be glorified with Christ, we must first, suffer with Him.

Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Sincerely,
De Maria

God’s plan of salvation is a beautiful thing.

 May 4th, 2013 12:51 am : 

Hi again Curt, On April 30th, 2013 2:49 am, you said:

Hi again De Maria (152)
I’m not sure, but I think our posts are playing leapfrog at times! So your 152 post popped up tonight but I don’t think it was there last night when I wrote 153… or at least not when I began writing. Anyway, let me respond.

I think so. Maybe that’s why I missed yours previously. By the way, please ignore my comment #159 and go to #160. They are the same message but in #159 I missed some block quotes and it went haywire.

Me: We consider it His grace at work in us:….Are we saying the same thing?
You:
Yes, for the moment.

OK.
Concerning yielding ourselves to God’s will:

I said:
If so, then, wouldn’t you say that you must make a choice to abide in Christ?
You said:
Now I would say no, with the following explanation: … and you’re killing me with the KJV :-)

Oops! ;)

Let’s go back to Philippians 2:13 “for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.” Who is doing the “willing” and “working” in us? It is God. So it is not my will, but His will that is operative in the believer. You seem to accept this, but then also try to insert the will of the man back into the equation. You speak of yielding our will to His, and I agree we do surrender in this way. But we surrender under His power, and thus, even our surrendering is not the result of our will, but His. This is why, when we do acts of righteousness, it brings glory to God… and not ourselves. Everyone knows we are sinners, and yet look! he did something good and right! My life verse comes to mind… Matthew 5: 16… “Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.” If my good works are the result of my “free will” choosing to do good, then why not glorify me? Quite simply because it is not my “free will” that causes me to do righteous acts, but God’s will working in me… and thus, we give our glory to Him. This is where the Catholic and Reformed theologies differ the most, in my humble opinion. The Protestant says that any good we do is willed by God, and thus there is no concept of “merit” for good works. It could be compared to a surfer taking credit for a really good wave. Sure, he got to ride the wave and it was exciting and glorious… but God created the wave. Without God… zippo.

This is an awesome response, but I want to pare down to the big difference between Catholic and Reformed. You said, “This is where the Catholic and Reformed theologies differ the most, in my humble opinion. The Protestant says that any good we do is willed by God, and thus there is no concept of “merit” for good works. It could be compared to a surfer taking credit for a really good wave. Sure, he got to ride the wave and it was exciting and glorious… but God created the wave. Without God… zippo.”

You are right about that except for one thing. We don’t judge our merit, God does.

The Reformed will say,
“You work for your salvation, therefore, how much work do you need to do to enter heaven?”

Oh, man!  I missed a great opportunity there.  What a great metaphor!  I should have said, God is the Judge who says to us, "great job on that wave!  You get a 10!"  Or  "Sorry, you pooped out!"

But that is not how we look at it. We are not the judges of our works. God is the Judge. We simply do what we are supposed to do. Jesus said:

Luke 17:10
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

10 So you too, when you do all the things which are commanded you, say, ‘We are unworthy slaves; we have done only that which we ought to have done.’”

And St. Paul said something else:

Hebrews 6:10
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

10 For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the [a]saints.

Now, why would he insinuate that God might be considered unjust if He did not remember our work of love? It seems that God takes into account our effort.

Now, it is true that we are nothing compared to God. But God is not comparing us to Himself. God gives us merit for works in the same way that He gives us credit for faith.

Genesis 15:6
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

6 Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

Psalm 106:30-31
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

30 Then Phinehas stood up and interposed,
And so the plague was stayed.
31 And it was reckoned to him for righteousness,
To all generations forever.

Abraham was given the merit of his faith. Phinehas the merit of his actions due to his faith.

Here’s how St. Augustine put the Catholic point of view:

“If then your merits are God’s gifts, God does not crown your merits as your merits, but as His gifts.” (ON GRACE AND PREDESTINATION)

In fact, we see the idea of claiming merit for oneself as a sin of presumption. One who claims salvation for himself, is judging himself meritorious unto salvation. And if he does so, without a special revelation from God, is putting himself in God’s place as Judge of his soul. He is like the Pharisee except instead of saying, “I am righteous because of my works.” He says, “I am righteous because of my faith.”

But if we can’t measure works enough to be saved, how does a simple human being measure how much faith it takes to enter heaven? Abraham didn’t have just a little bit of faith. Scripture says of Abraham:

Romans 4:19
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

19 Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah’s womb;

Note that it is God who accounted him faithful unto righteousness. Abraham didn’t say, “I’m saved because of my faith.” Does every person who claims to be saved also consider himself “strong” in faith? Isn’t that God’s judgment to make?

On temptation… no need to project… I am perfectly capable of sin! Every human is tempted every day by sin. Those who say they are not are liars, lunatics, totally ignorant of spiritual things, or working for the other side, in my most humble opinion. The devil is relentless! So, yes, I am tempted every day… and I sin every day, sometimes knowingly… sometimes ignorantly. I confess and pray for forgiveness every day.
Regarding the concept of “choosing Christ”… Romans 3:10-12 kills this concept.

We read that very differently. St. Paul is here quoting Psalms 14 and 53 and it is clear that the ones who are not righteous are the fools who say there is no God.

Romans 3:10-12
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

10 as it is written,
“There is none righteous, not even one;
11 There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one.”

Whereas, St. Paul himself seeks after God. Do you think he is condemning himself as unrighteous?

Apart from God’s will, we cannot and will not choose Christ.

This is true. As Jesus said, “Apart from me you can do nothing. (John 15:5).

God intercedes… first to save us, and then to sanctify us. Since it is God doing these things, victory in Christ is assured. No one can snatch the ones God has chosen. Jesus could not have said this if part of the salvation process relied on the believer. But, thank God, it doesn’t! Romans 8 is a beautiful treatise on this concept.
26 In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27 and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
…37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Let’s back up a little bit. There are a lot of “ifs” in the statements leading up to that passage:

9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit,

if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.

But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is [d]alive because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies [e]through His Spirit who dwells in you.

12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13 for

if you are living according to the flesh, you [f]must die;

but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery [g]leading to fear again, but you have received [h]a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,

17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ,

if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

Have you considered those?

There is no concept of free will in this passage. Before the beginning of time, God called, justified and glorified His flock. All past tense. They are called, not because they chose God… They are called to suit God’s purpose.

Called doesn’t mean forced. If we are called that infers that we must answer. We must respond to the Call.

When we fail in human weakness, the Spirit intercedes in ways we do not understand. Thus we conquer, not because we will it to be so, but because He willed it to be so from the beginning. Thus we will be forever preserved from separation from God. Paul confirms that the sheep cannot be snatched.

The way you read it. But I see that St. Paul also says, “if indeed the spirit of God dwells in you.” And I note that there is nothing there which says that the sheep know which one of them has the spirit of God and which doesn’t.

Its a beautiful thing! Can I get an amen?

God’s plan of salvation is a beautiful thing. But, I see His plan of salvation including our response to His Call. Our participation. I see nothing wrong in that. Can I get an amen?

Blessings,
Curt

And blessings to you as well,

Sincerely,

De Maria

In the Potter symbolism, St. Paul is essentially recounting in metaphorical terms the journey of Israel through Bible history.

 April 30th, 2013 12:14 am :

Curt Russell April 29th, 2013 2:57 am :
De Maria

Wow! Ok, let’s jump right in. Some things I say here may be reiterations of things said previously, but I want to walk straight through so the logic stays in order. I sure hope i can keep the blockquotes straight!

Wow is right! Awesome response. I’ve read it all the way through and I’d like to pare it down a bit. I think we’ve got a lot of stuff in common that we agree upon, even though we don’t seem to, because of our point of reference. The important stuff we agree upon. But we invert the order. For instance, you say salvation first then works. I say faith, then works then salvation.

But, I think the biggest thing which we don’t agree upon is this idea that God chooses some to destruction. I don’t want to misrepresent your view. Is that what you believe?

If so, what do you make of this verse?

1 Timothy 2:3-4
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the [a]knowledge of the truth.

That seems explicit. God desires all men to be saved.

That is correct.

So, it is your opinion that no can snatch us out of the Father’s hand.

What about John 15, the vine and the branches. Can the Father cut us off the Vine?

The Scripture in John 10 says this:

If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. 26 But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

From Romans 9 we read:

15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

Two things here:

One. Romans 9 is referring back to the Old Testament. And I believe, if we read the text, that Pharaoh hardened his heart first and then God used that hardening to show forth His power. And that is consistent with the Teaching of the New Testament:

Romans 1:22-24
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and [a]crawling creatures.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.

Two. God has revealed to whom He will show mercy:
Exodus 20:6
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
6 but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

This is to whom God will show His mercy. To those who love Him and prove their love by keeping His commandments.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God?

Let me add a bit of context and then explain how I understand this verse. The idea continues:

The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel [l]for honorable use and another [m]for common use? 22 [n]What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

We see that St. Paul is using the Potter symbolism. And this also hearkens back to the Old Testament:
Isaiah 45:9
New American Standard Bible
“Woe to the one who quarrels with his Maker— An earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth! Will the clay say to the potter, ‘What are you doing?’ Or the thing you are making say, ‘He has no hands’?

If we may, lets focus upon Rom 9:22

22 [n]What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

If you have ever tried your hand at pottery, you will understand this verse. The clay does not always mold easily. And what is done with the vessel who does not cooperate with the Potter’s design? It is destroyed.

And that is what I believe Rom 9:19-22 is saying. St. Paul is essentially recounting in metaphorical terms the journey of Israel through Bible history. God, the Potter, was willing to show His wrath and make His power known. That is, He was ready to destroy Israel in the desert of Sin. But Moses withstood Him:

Exodus 32: 10 Now then let Me alone, that My anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them; and I will make of you a great nation.” 11 Then Moses entreated the Lord his God, and said, “O Lord, why does Your anger burn against Your people whom You have brought out from the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand?

God endured them with much patience, but eventually, they were destroyed. Yes, even all of Israel. Only a small remnant remained.

And Rom 9:19 is essentially a warning to the Gentile reader. You might ask, “Why does God find fault for who can resist His will?” But don’t do it he says, because this is what the nation of Israel did and they were destroyed, except for a small remnant.

Well, its getting a bit late and I’ve got a plane to catch tomorrow. God willing, I’ll take up where I left off when I get settled in.

God bless you,

Sincerely,

De Maria

St. Paul was teaching the message of the Old Testament

De Maria April 30th, 2013 11:16 pm : 

OOPS! That was unreadable. Here goes again.

Cont’d from De Maria April 30th, 2013 12:14 am :

Hi Curt,

You said:

From these two Scriptures (and other supporting), we know 1) that God chooses whom He will save, 2) that the ones He has chosen are given to Christ and 3) they cannot be snatched away.

In my opinion, there are too many Scriptures which show that 1. God wants us all t be saved and has given us all the opportunity to be saved. And 3. men can be self-deluded and consider themselves saved when they aren’t and 4. that God is judge and it is not our business to presume ourselves saved but only to do the will of God.

No, then yes. No, calling Jesus Lord does not make you one of the elect. Judas called Jesus Lord. I hope we can agree that he was not, as it turns out, one of the elect.

1. The key words here are “as it turns out”. But anyone observing the Twelve before the betrayal would have thought that Judas was one of the more important Apostles. He held the money bag.
2. Did Jesus choose (i.e. “elect”) Judas to be an Apostle or not?
3. So, it would appear that Judas lost his election.

As you pointed out, many who cry Lord, Lord will not be saved. Then yes, we agree that only the elect have the Holy Spirit.

Is this relevant to this point?
Hebrews 6:4-10
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift andhave been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, [a]since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame

These people are “partakers of the Holy Spirit” and “then have fallen away”.

So no, I don’t agree with that logic because it diverges from the John scripture cited above… that God chooses and that our will has nothing to do with that choice, as Romans 9:16 clearly shows.

Ok. I guess I’ve addressed this enough above. I’ll await your response to those comments.

I, of course, cannot answer why someone does this or that.

I meant in reference to 1 Corinthians 12:3, “no one calls Jesus Lord except by the Holy Spirit”.

Ok, let’s stop here for a minute. Let’s look at Ephesians 2…

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Faith is a grace given us by God. True. And without faith, it is impossible to please God.

9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

To me, this is a reference to the Old Covenant of works. It is also a reference to the Pharisaic attitude highlighted in Luke 18:11 The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.

1. We are no longer under the Covenant of works. But under the Covenant of grace. Where, according to Catholic Teaching, we are justified by faith in the Sacraments, the fountains of grace and grace is poured into our hearts.

2. We are never supposed to judge ourselves or exhalt ourselves. God is our judge. It is He who saves us.

10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Two things here.
1. Jesus made us all. He made everything which is made. We were His workmanship before we were justified by faith. And the Law of God is in all of our hearts. The Commandments are the works which we are expected to walk in from the time we are old enough to understand. Therefore, this refers to our conception in the flesh.
2. But it also refers to our regeneration in the waters of grace by the Holy Spirit. Where we are born again children of God and still expected to walk in the works which God prepared from the beginning.

We know that Scripture must agree with itself, and Paul clearly states that we are not saved by our works. So what gives? I think Galations 2 provides the answer…

20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Precisely. That is why works are so important for our salvation. Because God is working through us. Our good works are His works.

My good works are not the result of my will acting right. They are the result of Christ dwelling within me. Thus Paul states that we are saved by grace through faith… both are a gift from God. Our flesh lives in constant tension with the will of God. As He gives us faith, we trust His will more, resulting in the good works “which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them”. So, of course, the sheep whom God chose from the beginning, who were given to Christ, who are indwelled by Christ, who do the will of the Father because Christ lives in them… they are the ones who will be welcomed into the heavenly kingdom as stated in Matthew 25. Those who are not “those” will not be welcomed.

I don’t see anything there with which I disagree outright. I would tweak that first sentence and say, “My good works are a result of my free will yielding cooperation with God.”

I think Rom 6:16 says it very well:

Romans 6:16
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin [a]resulting in death, or of obedience [b]resulting in righteousness?

So, I have placed all of the verses in context with each other. I am curious how you would explain a works doctrine that does not contradict Ephesians 2 and Romans 9.

Well, for one, we don’t consider our soteriology a strictly “works” doctrine. We consider it by “faith and works”. And 2, I think I’ve addressed both verses as you brought them up but still Eph 2 does not say we are saved by “faith alone” and Catholic doctrine teaches that we are saved by faith. Our works are a result of our faith and evidence of our faith.

And Rom 9, is not speaking of two babes, one condemned to hell by God and one chosen for heaven, as you seem to think. But it is in a metaphorical way explaining the history of the people of Israel. And St. Paul is warning the new Christians, not to make the same mistakes.

I would also be curious to know this: If our salvation depends in part on our “free will” deciding to do good works, what level of good works are required to achieve salvation? 100% perfection? 75% perfection? 51%? I have never met anyone who achieved 100% always in God’s will. Very few would make 50%. So how much?

1. Perseverence to the end is required.
2. We are not the Judge. God is our Judge:
1 Corinthians 4:5
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
5 Therefore do not go on [a]passing judgment before [b]the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men’s hearts; and then each man’s praise will come to him from God.

Acts 16:31 … They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” We know from the aforementioned verses that the ability to believe is a gift from God.

The point I was trying to make is that the people in Matt 7:21 seemed to believe they were saved.

So let’s look at Matthew 25 to see what it actually says. There are two groups of people:

1) Sheep; “you who are blessed of My Father; Inheritors of kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.”

2) Goats; “accursed ones”; into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels

Let me ask a question… Do you get to choose your inheritance? Do you earn your inheritance? And the answer is: No and no. You are given an inheritance, not because of what you do, but because of who you are… or more precisely, whose you are… in this case, chosen by God.

Colossians 3:24
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve.

What reward is this?
Revelation 22:
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
12 “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.

We don’t believe we “earn” an inheritance. We believe we “merit”. The difference is between a laborer and a son.

This Scripture again confirms that those who are blessed of the Father were chosen from the beginning.

All were chosen from the beginning. But some, like Esau, despised their inheritance:

Genesis 25:34
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
34 Then Jacob gave Esau bread and lentil stew; and he ate and drank, and rose and went on his way. Thus Esau despised his birthright.

Good works are evident because of “whose we are” … blessed by God, as confirmed by Paul and others.

True. This is why we say that faith alone is dead. Good works proceed from faith.

Now on the judgment day, every knee will bow and confess Christ as Lord. The truth will be known and confessed by all. And every person will want to be saved… but not all will be. So I don’t really buy that these all professed Christ in life and are now surprised that they didn’t make the grade. Like a criminal, they all proclaim their innocence before the judge.

I understand. We view it as self-delusion. Much like the Pharisee of Luke 18:11.

Actually I agree.

Wonderful!

But this verse does not speak directly to salvation  But John 14 speaks directly to relationship. And a relationship with God is necessary for salvation, is it not?  and you left out a few very important preceding verses…

16 I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

 Again and again we see that it is Jesus / the spirit of Truth / the holy Spirit abiding within us that makes the difference in our behavior… not a newfound triumph of our “free will”. So, again, no our salvation does not come by good works. Rather, our good works are the result of our salvation.

 But that doesn’t speak directly of works. Whereas, John 14:15-16 says,

John 14:15-16
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
15 “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. 16 I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;

According to that order, love will induce us to keep the commandments and then Jesus will pray to the Father on our behalf.

I again quote Romans 9….

 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.  19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?  

 It seems pretty clear that all are not saved because God chose it to be that way. Why did God offer His first covenant only to Abraham and his descendants?

 That doesn’t mean that only Abraham and his descendants were saved though. How about Melchizedek and the people of his kingdom?

In order to obey Christ, we must be saved. Romans 3…

“There is none righteous, not even one;
11 There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one.”

 This is a reference to the Old Testament, Psalms 14 and 53. The “none who are righteous” refers to “fools who say in their heart, there is no God”. Essentially, atheists or the wicked.

If none at all were righteous, what about Abraham? Did God not say of him, “I credit this to righteousness”?

Let’s back up a second. Paul tells us in Ephesians that salvation is a gift from God.

 Amen.

A gift, according to Webster is “something voluntarily transferred by one person to another without compensation”. If you give me something and I pay you for it, that is a “purchase” not a gift. Our salvation was purchased by Christ on the cross and given to us as a gift. Do we feel gratitude for that gift? Absolutely! Do we respond to that gratitude? Absolutely! Do we have enough in our account to pay Christ back? Not a chance!

 We agree then. Because I didn’t say we had enough to pay Him back in full. I just said we should feel an obligation to the Spirit in gratitude for God’s gift to us as it said in Romans 8.

But that is not what He desires anyway. He wants us to pay it forward… to offer the same grace to others that He has shown to us… to be “Christ-like”.

 Exactly! He wants us to be fountains of His grace.

But we deceive ourselves if we think that will somehow pay Christ back for what He has done for us. That would put our grace to others on the same par as His grace to us, which of course is a non-starter.

 Agreed. I didn’t say we could pay back in full. But that we should do the best we can. To illustrate, a young girl drowns in a pool. A total stranger comes by and using cpr, revives her. Can her parents ever pay that person back? No. But in gratitude, they should at least become his friend.*

I’m going to skip ahead a tad…

 Sure.

Ok… Let’s look at another part of Romans 9…

10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

God chose before they were born and had not done anything good or bad. Why? So that His will would be done NOT because of works, but because of Him who calls. So much for the concept of God calling the righteous. Again Romans 3… The is NONE righteous… no one seeks God. God chooses us according to His plan… period. We flatter ourselves (and deny God) if we think we are good enough to choose Him.

 Again, I don’t understand that verse as you do. What I see is that St. Paul is quoting Malachi. And in Malachi, God explains to the Jews why the Jews are being punished. I think I already addressed this above, so I won’t dwell on it. Bottom line, I don’t think that God brought Esau into the world to destroy him. Esau, first despised God’s birthright given him as a free gift, then God began to despise Esau. Especially since Esau took on many pagan wives.

Regarding 35, I agree. But we must not confuse rewards in heaven with salvation itself.

 We don’t. But we believe that life everlasting is itself a reward. See Rev 22:12-15.

As I stated earlier, our flesh is in constant tension with God’s will.

 Agreed. Although, we do believe that a few Saints have achieved total freedom from sin in this life.

If God chooses to save us, that is a done deal.

 Agreed. Two caveats.
1. Most of us don’t know who has been elected to salvation.
2. Some have received special revelation from God. But that is a personal revelation such as the one that the Thief on the Cross received. It does not affect anyone else.

Then God begins the sanctification process, giving us faith to overcome our sinful nature.

 Two things again.
1. We believe the justification/sanctification process begins on the day one is conceived and ends the day God judges us eternally saved or condemned.

2. We believe this process is accelerated by the Sacraments which Jesus Christ established.

This internal spiritual battle goes on until death.

 Agreed. Because during our life, we can exercise our will. It is we doing battle with evil, by the strength of our wills.

As our faith grows, our victories over sin increase and our good works become evident. Our rewards in heaven will depend on our perseverance in the battle… but not our salvation.

 We believe both. We consider salvation a reward for our perseverance in doing well (Rom 2:7).

Regarding 38, again I agree. God gives us faith to do battle, and like any leader, He expects us to use it.

 Agreed.

Well, I think that Romans 9 debunks the notion of salvation by righteousness. Nonetheless (this will sound schizo) I agree that God saves the righteous and condemns the wicked.

 Lol! Yea, but that is the right conclusion, in my opinion.

The issue is one of “cause and effect”. I believe Scripture is clear that there are none who are righteous.

 I believe that is a widely held misunderstanding of St. Paul’s message. One which doesn’t take into account that St. Paul was teaching the message of the Old Testament, Psalms 14 and 53, that the one who denies God is wicked.

Any righteousness we have comes from God. Therefore, we are saved by God and any righteousness we display results from His indwelling.

 Absolutely. But again, we believe He gives us the ability to choose to cooperate with His grace or to deny it.

The alternative version, to me, is backward. It says we must find it in ourselves to act righteously, and that God will then save us.

 That is not what we believe. We don’t have anything which God didn’t give us. Including the free will to choose right from wrong.

Those who choose to do right and persevere to the end will stand before the Just Judge and receive the reward of eternal life.

Those who choose to do nothing at all and those who choose to do evil and persevere to the end doing so, will also stand before the Just Judge and receive the reward of eternal punishment.

That is as we believe.

Ok… well that is a very context sensitive verse. The problem in Corinth was that the people were aligning themselves with different teachers… some with Paul, some with Apollos, some with Cephas. If you look at 1 Cor 3:5, you get where this conversation is coming from, and going. They were trying to take different teachings and read between the lines. Paul is admonishing to stay with what is written and don’t go beyond. Ironically, I think your read of this Scripture goes well beyond what it is saying.

 True. But that context does not affect the direct message of 1 Cor 4. In that verse, St. Paul is telling them that he is not concerned with their judgment and does not even judge himself, but leaves the judgment to God.

I think this is all absolutely consistent with itself, and what I have said thus far. What is born of God? Our faith. Jesus said that it all boils down to two things… love God and love your neighbor. Those whom He saves will do these things. Those whom He does not save will not.

Regarding your last question… yes as He give me grace and strength so to do, but not perfectly. I can tell you that there has been a radical transformation over the Christian portion of my life. I am imperfect in the flesh, but perfected in Christ

 Hm! Very good answer. The answer that I’ve ever gotten, invariably, is, “No one can keep the Commandments but Christ.” However, your answer is more akin to mine. I would say, “I do my best. If I fail, I repent and am confident that God forgives.”

In fairness, your last question is a bit of a straw man, based on your understanding of John.

 Well, its based upon the understanding I’ve been led to by many Protestants who say that we never achieve righteousness. But that we are so called, “snow covered dung heaps.”

God grabbed me by the collar and pointed me in a different direction. As I said before, there has been a radical transformation over the Christian portion of my life. I would attribute this transformation to Christ working in me… not to my free will. There are two types of people… those who are moving toward Christ, and those who are moving away. When God chooses us, He promises He will indwell us, and He will work out His purposes through us. Those who claim to be in Him, but do not act accordingly are liars, and the truth is not in them. This is all consistent with Scriptures and statements made above. That said, we must also be aware that Christ meets people where they are, so one man’s sinner is another man’s saint… that is to say, we are all at different places on the sanctification walk. The question is not so much where we are as it is, which way are we pointing? I love my wife even more than the day we married 30 years ago. My relationship with Christ is just like that. I love Him more every day… and I pray for, and find, new ways to be the grace of Christ to others every day. This is not me… it is Christ working in me!

 Beautiful statement! I feel the same way. One little tweak, I would say, “I would attribute this transformation to Christ working in me… strengthening my will to do righteous works by His grace poured into my heart.

Blessings,
Curt

 To you too, I’m enjoying the conversation immensely. But I didn’t do a good job of paring down as I intended. I hope it hasn’t gotten too long.

Sincerely,

De Maria

*  That's a reference to a friend of mine.  Who's name I've forgotten.  But he actually did that for someone.  And her family became his friend.  May they be eternally blessed.