The difference between prayer, worship and Liturgy

There is very little difference between the words "prayer" and "worship". But they do not mean exactly the same thing.

The basic difference in this day and age, is that worship is only directed to God but prayer can be directed to either God or the Saints.

So, what is prayer?...(Read more)

So you'd better join your aunt in praising Mary because that is the Will of God.

Originally Posted by HW 

Lies. I can do a quick google search and find tons of prayers to Mary that the Catholic Church is okay with. Most of these prayers aren't asking her for anything but are in fact adoring her.

Have you ever said to your spouse or has your spouse ever said to you, "I adore you."? Or have you ever heard anyone say that to a spouse or to a parent?

Do you think they were worshipping them as deities? If you do then you better work on your powers of discernment.

If we ever say we adore Mary, the context is from one creature to another and we mean that we love her exceedingly. If you want to twist that into something it isn't, it is between you and God. We have provided you the truth.

I remember one time my aunt "asking Mary to pray for her" and I never heard her once ask Mary for anything. She was actually praising her

Are you upset because your aunt praised Mary? Are you also upset because she is following God's example of which Jesus said:

Matthew 5:48

King James Version (KJV)
⁴⁸ Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

But let me show you what Scripture says. Scripture says that God's will should be done on earth as it is in heaven.

And God wills that the Angels praise Mary. Don't believe me? Read this:


Luke 1:26-28
King James Version (KJV)
26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.


Let's break this down:

ANGEL GABRIEL
1. an angel is a messenger of God. That is what the word, angel, means.
2. this angel, Gabriel, is one of the four angels that stands before the throne of God.

WAS SENT FROM GOD
1. God sent this angel to Mary.
2. Since this angel is a messenger of God's, God sent Him to deliver a message.
3. Therefore, the angel was not speaking on his own, but was communicating God's message to Mary.
4. If we skip down to verse 28, we see that this was a message of praise (i.e. blessed art thou).
5. Therefore God praised Mary through His Angel.

That is great praise indeed. Do you know of any man whose praise is worth more than God's? In other words, what do you value more highly, the praise of man or the praise of God?

But, there's more. God sent the Angel to do His Will. What is His Will. Obviously, God sent the Angel to deliver a message of praise. Therefore it is God's will that the Angels praise Mary.

And there's yet more. Because the Holy Spirit inspired a holy woman to exclaim, ""Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! "
still in:

Luke 1:41-45
King James Version (KJV)
41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: 42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

Should we break this down?
1. The Holy Spirit is God the Third Person of the Holy Trinity.
2. Therefore, God inspired Elisabeth to praise Mary.
3. This praise is inscribed in the Word of God for all generations.
4. Since Elisabeth is a member of the human race, then it is safe to conclude that God wills that men praise Mary.
5. And we find, again, that God praised Mary through His Saint. Saint Elisabeth praised Mary when she was inspired by the Holy Spirit to do so. That means that it is the Holy Spirit's praise which she passed on. That is why Scripture is called the Word of God. Because it is inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Need we say more? Let's do it anyway.

Mother of God
Luke 1:43-45
New International Version (NIV)
43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy.45 Blessed is she who has believed that the Lord would fulfill his promises to her!”

Lets break this down:
1. The word "Lord" is here mentioned two times.
2. In the second instance, it is an obvious reference to God. "Blessed is she who believes that the LORD would fulfill His promises." That is an obvious reference to God.
3. Therefore, then, what could she possibly have meant when she said, "mother of my LORD"?
4. Since she was inspired by the Holy Spirit to utter these words, she must have meant what is most obvious. Is Jesus, God? Yes. Therefore, the words she uttered could also be translated, "mother of my GOD".
5. So, God explicitly teaches us, in His Word, that Mary is the Mother of God.


Is there any higher praise than that? Is there? Is your praise worth more than the Word of God? Is mine? No!

So you'd better join your aunt in praising Mary because that is the Will of God.

and when I confronted her she had the nerve to say she did not pray to Mary but was asking for her intercession.

Nothing wrong with that either. We are commanded to make intercessions at all times. That command encompasses Mary as well.

It's amazing how you people are so blind when even if we pull out these "intercession prayers" that are clearly adoration to that saint you will still deny it. It never ceases to amaze me.

It amazes me that you people don't see the spiritual teachings of Scripture. But Scripture is clear:
1 Corinthians 2:14

King James Version (KJV)
¹⁴ But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Wrong. We just don't like to sin by adding extra things in there such as it is okay to pray to these saints because they can hear us.

These are not extra things. They are deep things which the Spirit reveals:

1 Corinthians 2:10

King James Version (KJV)
¹⁰ But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

She is frequently mentioned? Really? How come there is absolutely nothing about her in the majority of the New Testament? If she was so important you think she would be mentioned more frequently.

Even Jesus could have been mentioned more frequently. Here is a search for explicit mentioning of Mary in the Scriptures:

• Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary....
• Matthew 2:11And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother,....
• Matthew 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary?....
• Luke 2:34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, ....
• Acts 1:14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus,....

Here she is mentioned indirectly:

Luke 2:43
And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not of it.John 19:25
Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, ....

There are more indirect mentions of Mary, but that should suffice.

What did Jesus request of her??

Many, many things. Was He not her son? Did she not carry Him in the womb and give birth to Him. What does a Child request of His mother on a daily basis? First of all love, in all its forms. Then, nourishment, then clothing, then shelter, what else?

As for Jesus talking to Moses and Elijah, here is the thing, Jesus is GOD.

Jesus is God made man. And He did not commit any sins. Therefore, if it were sinful to address the dead, Jesus would not have done it. Just because He is God does not mean that Jesus will disobey the Commandments of His Father.

He can talk to anyone He wants to.

As can we.

As far as I know, no one else living on earth is God, so what makes you think that just because Jesus communicated with them that means you can also. Jesus also raised the dead. Can you do that?

You really need to read the Scripture according to how God wants you to read it:

2 Corinthians 3:6

King James Version (KJV)
⁶ Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Have you not read in Scripture that Jesus came to give us an example to follow?
1 Peter 2:21

King James Version (KJV)
²¹ For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

1 Corinthians 11:1

King James Version (KJV)
1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

As for raising people from the dead. Have you not read in Scripture:
John 14:12

King James Version (KJV)
¹² Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.


And yes, many of the Saints of God have even raised men from the dead.

Sincerely,

De Maria

You can't give what you don't have

De Maria September 7, 2014 at 11:16 PM

Tom January 9, 2014 at 7:47 PM
I am a practicing Roman Catholic and chatechist and want to serve the Lord and worship only Him.

Good job, Tom. However, I believe you should stop being a catechist until you resolve this issue. You should not teach or pass on your doubts about the truth of Catholic Doctrine to those seeking the knowledge of the Truth. This is for the good of your own soul. The Scripture says:

Mark 9:41 And whosoever shall scandalize one of these little ones that believe in me; it were better for him that a millstone were hanged around his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

If we were meant to speak/pray to other believers who have died in the flesh and are now we assume to be with the Lord, wouldn’t one of the Gospel writers, or Paul, or any of the other writers of the epistles (especially Revelation) have mentioned that such a practice occurring or admonished us to do so. Our Church has taken liberties in this regard where the truth is not certain as to whether God approves of this practice and Who may be jelous that our prayers are only directed to Him.

Several things here.

1. Remember that Scripture tells us that the Church teaches the wisdom of God:

Ephesians 3:10

10 That the manifold wisdom of God may be made known to the principalities and powers in heavenly places through the church,

Therefore, you are not the interpreter of the Word of God. The Church is the one whom Christ appointed to teach you His Doctrines:

Matthew 28:
19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

2. What you haven’t noticed is that we have a New Dispensation in Jesus Christ.
a. First, Jesus Christ is our model.
b. In the Transfiguration, we see Jesus Christ speaking to Moses and Elijah:

Matthew 17:
2 And he was transfigured before them. And his face did shine as the sun: and his garments became white as snow.3 And behold there appeared to them Moses and Elias talking with him. 4 And Peter answering, said to Jesus: Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles, one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

3. And St. Paul reveals that we, who are baptized, now walk with the spirits of men made perfect. These are the Saints. They are walking side by side with us and they can hear us:

Hebrews 12 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

1 And therefore we also having so great a cloud of witnesses over our head, laying aside every weight and sin which surrounds us, let us run by patience to the fight proposed to us:….

18 For you are not come to a mountain that might be touched, and a burning fire, and a whirlwind, and darkness, and storm, 19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words, which they that heard excused themselves, that the word might not be spoken to them:20 For they did not endure that which was said: And if so much as a beast shall touch the mount, it shall be stoned. 21 And so terrible was that which was seen, Moses said: I am frighted, and tremble.

22 But you are come to mount Sion, and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to the company of many thousands of angels, 23 And to the church of the firstborn, who are written in the heavens, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of the just made perfect 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new testament, and to the sprinkling of blood which speaketh better than that of Abel.

Therefore, Tom, we are walking with the Saints and Angels upon Mt. Sion. And we can talk to them the way Jesus talked to Moses and Elijah upon Mount Tabor.

Many catholics, including my wife, pray to St. Anthony when they lose something of value. Strangely enough, often times they find the item in a very unusual and mysterious way that defies logic. While I am not dogmatic that this is wrong, we must be wary that this could be an example of 2 Cor 11:14, where “Satan transforms himself into an angel of light.” He does this for the purpose of steering people away from our true Lord and His gospel and he may be allowed by God to interact with us in this way when we attempt to speak to spirits (including believers and saints who have died in the flesh). We would most likely consider it as sinful if we prayed a similar prayer St. Anthony sincerely using a ouija board and invited his feedback instead of instead of attemptig to speak to him at church while also praying to God in the next sentence. Nevertheless, I digress.

Its not the same thing. When we pray to the Saints, we pray to members of the body of Christ.

When you use a ouija board, you are practicing witchcraft.

This issue seems to come down to one’s comfort in only trusting the Word of God, the Bible, as the ultimte authority on this topic, or if one is open to Church tradition as also having authority in this manner.

If the Bible were your authority, you would obey Church Tradition. Because the Bible tells you to obey your Rulers in the Church:

Hebrews 13:
7 Remember your prelates who have spoken the word of God to you; whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation,

Notice that it is Priests from whom you learn the Word of God. Not from the Bible alone.

While I have on rare occasion, said the Hail Mary, etc. usually in a group setting, I am not comfortable doing so. For some Catholics such as myself and most protestant brothers, bowing our head and speaking to someone other than our God creates guilty and seems like a blasphemous act for which I must request His mercy.

First of all, don’t do anything that violates your conscience.
Second of all, if Mother Mary is good enough for Jesus Christ, she is good enough for me. Do you not realize that Jesus Christ had to ask her for food, clothes and for her loving arms? Do you not realize that He gave her to us from the Cross to be our mother? Do you not realize that all who keep His Commandments and profess His Gospel are children of Mary?

Revelation 12:
17 And the dragon was angry against the woman: and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Therefore, I choose to offer my prayers to God alone, bolding approaching His throne of grace, as we are admonished to do throughout His Word.

Then it sounds as though you are no longer a Catholic. May God forgive you because you have committed the sin of Esau:

Hebrews 12:16-17Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

16…. as Esau; who for one mess, sold his first birthright.
17 For know ye that afterwards, when he desired to inherit the benediction, he was rejected; for he found no place of repentance, although with tears he had sought it.

See also: Prayer for the dead and Communion of Saints

Praying to dead saints

Just my two cents. The Bible does not say anything about praying to “dead” saints.

The Bible simply commands the Saints in Christ to pray for “all” (1 Timothy 2:1). We don’t cease to become members of the Body of Christ when we die. Therefore, we don’t cease to pray when we die. If anything, our prayer becomes more perfect as we get closer to the source of our spiritual life (2 Corinthians 5:8).

The New Testament is a new dispensation in Christ. This is clearly expressed in the book of Hebrews. Where the Old Testament is described, it says:

Heb 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, 19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: 20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: 21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:)

But the New Covenant in the name of Jesus Christ is totally different. We are living amongst our brethren. How can it be that we are not permitted to communicate with those amongst whom we live?

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Christ is our example. And it is He who first portrayed the new dispensation of the communion of saints, when, still in the flesh, he climbed the Mountain of Tabor and spoke freely with Moses and Elijah in the company of Peter, James and John (Matthew 17:1-3).

Therefore, although the Bible does not give an explicit command to pray to dead saints. The New Testament teaches, by example and implication, that we who are born again in Christ are living in and amongst the saints upon Mount Sion. And since we are living amongst them, we are free to communicate with them.

Prayer to Mary, response to PBJ

 De Maria said...

PBJ said:

Imagine that Jones is a very godly man and that Smith is his less godly Christian friend. Smith has some problems in his life. One would never say to Smith, "Fly to Jones for refuge and ask him to deliver you from all dangers" meaning by that, "Ask Jones to pray for you." It wouldn't matter how great a person Jones was, how great a Christian, how much the passage in James could be presumed to apply to Jones. To talk about Jones in those terms would be to treat him as a superbeing or a magician, not just an especially godly man.

Imagine that you see an Angel approach Jones and say, "Hail Jones, God has told me to bring you a message. God says that you are the most blessed of men and He is always with you."

Now, will you fly to Jones' patronage? I sure would. Scripture says:

James 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

And we see, in Job, where God hears certain people whom He considers righteous:

Job 42:7-10King James Version (KJV)

7 And it was so, that after the Lord had spoken these words unto Job, the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath. 8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job. 9 So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went, and did according as the Lord commanded them: the Lord also accepted Job. 10 And the Lord turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends: also the Lord gave Job twice as much as he had before.

Not only that, but Scripture tells us that all who love God and hold the Gospel of Jesus Christ are seeds of the Woman. That Woman, gentlemen, is the woman who gave birth to the Messiah. That Woman, is Mary:

Revelation 12:17King James Version (KJV)

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Who, except the most rebellious, wouldn't run to the patronage of She whom God the Father has assigned as their spiritual Mother?

See this one too.

All we do is imitate and obey Jesus.

Red:
In 1745...St. Alphonsus Delaguarie

Liquori.

wrote a book called The Glories of Mary.

Correct.

It is fully authorized by the Roman Catholic Church. Its latest edition is a smaller abridged version of it, published by the Catholic Book Publishing Company of New York and officially stamped by the Vicar General, the Archdiocese of New York.

Nothing in that book which can be construed to be against the faith.

Here is a small sample

: Wonderful!

In the Marion year, Pope Pius XII apparently reflected the Church's view of the Virgin Mary when the Pope stood up to give this following Pontifical prayer, and I quote: "Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty

Psalm 45:9-11

9 Kings' daughters were among thy honourable women: upon thy right hand did stand the queen in gold of Ophir.  10 Hearken, O daughter, and consider, and incline thine ear; forget also thine own people, and thy father's house;  11 So shall the king greatly desire thy beauty: for he is thy Lord; and worship thou him.

and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, O immaculate mother of Jesus

Luke 1:
43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

and our mother,

Do you consider yourself one who keeps the Commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ?

Revelation 12:
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Mary we adore

Have you ever heard a man say to his wife, "I adore you." Does he mean that she is a goddess? Or that he loves her?

We adore Mary in the sense that we love her as Jesus Himself loved her. With a supernatural love.

and praise the peerless richness of the sublime gifts with which God has filled you above every other mere creature from the moment of conception

Luke 1:
47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.

until the day on which your assumption into heaven He crowned you Queen of the Universe.

Revelation 12:1
And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

O crystal fountain of faith,

Luke 1:
46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,

bathe our hearts with your heavenly perfume. O conqueress of evil and death,

Genesis 3:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

inspire in us a deep horror of sin which makes the soul detestable to God and the slave of hell. O well-beloved of God,

Luke 1:
28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

hear the ardent cries which rise up from every heart in this year dedicated to you. Then tenderly, O Mary, cover our aching womb, convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and the oppressed. Comfort the poor and humble. Quench hatred. Sweeten harshness. Safeguard the flower of purity. Protect the holy Church. In your name resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognize that all are brothers and that the nations are members of one family.

Rev 12:17, all who bear the testimony of Christ and keep the Commandments of God are her seed.

Receive, O sweet mother, our humble supplications and above all, obtain for us on that day, happy with you that we may repeat before your throne that hymn which is sung today around your altars, you are beautiful, O Mary, you are glory, O Mary, you are the joy, you are the honor of our people," end quote.

Amen! She is the Mother of Jesus Christ. No one can bestow upon Mary a greater honor than God already has.

No, there is no Mary worship going on here.

Absolutely none. All we do is imitate and obey Jesus. He gave Himself to Mary. And then He gave us to her as well:

John 19:
25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

Are you a disciple whom Jesus loves? I know I am. Therefore, in obedience to the command of Jesus Christ, I behold my mother when I behold Mary and I take her into my heart.

You can change the word worship to whatever you'd like, but this is straight up idolatry.

What is this that Joshua, one of God's chosen, did before St. Michael, the Archangel?

Joshua 5:14

King James Version (KJV)
14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the Lord am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant?

Sincerely,

De Maria

So, when will you praise her as commanded by God?

Cala,

I DID provide the proof for the Protestant doctrine of the Trinity from Scripture!

No. You didn't. You provided the proof texts the Church used to derive the teaching.

God gave us that definition. How arrogant.

It is you who is arrogantly claiming something which is not in Scripture.

this is too foolish for me to answer.

1 Corinthians 1:21

King James Version (KJV)
²¹ For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

I can't talk to someone who doesn't even believe the word of God came from God

It is Catholic Teaching that the Word of God came from God. That is why the Church FIRST called it the Word of God.

and thinks it came from the RCC

The Bible came from God through the Catholic Church, true.

And no I will not pray to your demonic Mary either.

No one asked you to pray to a demon. But God commands, in His Word, that you praise the Mother of His Son.

Luke 1:26-28
King James Version (KJV)
26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
Let's break this down:

ANGEL GABRIEL
1. an angel is a messenger of God. That is what the word, angel, means.
2. this angel, Gabriel, is one of the four angels that stands before the throne of God.

WAS SENT FROM GOD
1. God sent this angel to Mary.
2. Since this angel is a messenger of God's, God sent Him to deliver a message.
3. Therefore, the angel was not speaking on his own, but was communicating God's message to Mary.
4. If we skip down to verse 28, we see that this was a message of praise (i.e. blessed art thou).
5. Therefore God praised Mary through His Angel.


So, when will you praise her as commanded by God?

Sincerely,

De Maria