A man can lose his salvation

De Maria October 27, 2012 at 1:15 AM

Hi Christopher Lake,

You said:

I am a former Catholic convert (from agnosticism). Do you know that the majority of the original Protestant Reformers (and those, like me, who follow in their footsteps today, such as Presbyterians and Reformed Baptists) did not hold to the articulation of “Once Saved, Always Saved” found here, but rather to the “Perserverance of the Saints,” which is a very different doctrine?

I didn’t know that.

It is true that genuine Christians will lead lives which are characterized by a hunger for holiness. If a person claims to be a Christian, trusting in Christ for his/her salvation, yet that person is not fighting sin and doing good works, he/she is quite likely not a genuine Christian.

That sounds reasonable.

Scripture states clearly that only the person who endures *to the end* (in faith) will be saved.

That is the Catholic Teaching.

However, Scripture also claims (of the converted person, the Christian) that “He (God) who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.” (Philippians 1:6, ESV) According to this verse, God began the good work in us through bringing us to conversion, and He will complete the good work in us that He began. He leaves no person who has been born again in such a state that the person can somehow become “un-born again.” This being said, God will complete His good work in us through our *perseverance* in the faith– which He Himself *ensures.*

Your stated assumption is that God “leaves no person who has been born again in such a state that the person can somehow become “un-born again.”

But this contradicts Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

St. Peter addresses this error more pointedly:
2 Peter 2:20-22
King James Version (KJV)
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Therefore, it seems to me that your assumption that God saves all who are born again, is false, when compared to Scripture.

Again, from Paul’s letter to the Philippians, “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.” (2:12-13) We persevere in the faith– all *true* Christians do. We do so though, because God works in us, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. This is the Reformed, *Biblical* doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints (all Christians being called “saints” in the Bible, not just those who have been canonized).

1. All Christians are saints, that is Catholic Teaching. Have you ever heard of the communion of saints? That means that the saints on earth communicate with the saints in heaven.
2. The Reformed doctrine of the Perseverence of the Saints, is that precisely, a reformed innovation of the Gospel of Christ. In the Gospel of Christ, many who receive the Word fall away. God does not continue to work in them because they refuse to cooperate with God’s will:
Matthew 7:21-23
King James Version (KJV)
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Two last verses which show that for those who have been truly converted, they *will* persevere in the faith, *and* their salvation can also never be lost:

Let’s unpack those verses in context and in order.

“For those whom He foreknew

\Whom did He foreknow? He is God, so that means He foreknew everyone.

He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son,

That would be all mankind, wouldn’t it:
Genesis 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers.

That just says that God made us in order that we might become brothers of Christ:
Romans 8:15
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

For those whom He predestined He also called,

I believe Catholics and Protestants agree that God calls everyone with no exception.
1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

and those whom He called He also justified,

Here, the unspoken assumption must be that those who were called and obeyed:
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

For many are called, as the Scripture says:
Matthew 20:16
So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

and those whom He justified He also glorified.” (Romans 8:29-30, ESV)

Again, the assumption is that the justified did not turn away.
John 15:2-6
King James Version (KJV)
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

And these are the elect.
Matthew 24:31
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Those who remain. They who have persevered to the end and did not fall:
2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

In the second verse here, anyone who is predestined and called is also justified and glorified. There is no category left for people who were predestined, called, and justified, but who later lost their salvation.

Only if you read the Scripture without correlating to the rest of Scripture. If you allow two verses to contradict themselves, then that is what you get, two contradicting Scriptures. Scripture teaches that men can fall away from the faith. Therefore it is impossible that Scripture also teaches that men do not fall away from the faith.

1 Timothy 1:19
Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:

If a person has been predestined, called, and justified by God, this verse states that he/she *will* be glorified. Again, this will not happen without the person’s perseverance in the faith to the end, but the perseverance is once which is empowered and ensured by God (Philippians 1:6. 2:12-13).

That is reasonable if you are looking at it from the end. From the perspective of who is in heaven. Without God, they would not have persevered. That is Catholic Teaching.

But if you are looking at it from an earthly perspective and your understanding, as you seem to have explained earlier, is that everyone who is called will be justified and everyone justified will be glorified, you are wrong. It contradicts Catholic Teaching and the teaching of Scripture which Heb 6:6-10 and 2 Pet 2:20-22 clearly show.

This is what Protestant Reformed Christians believe. The “Once Saved, Always Saved” easy-believism without obedience to God is a relatively recent invention and is *not* faithful to the Protestant Reformation.

Depending upon what you mean above, it is either right or wrong. That which is right is in accordance with Catholic Teaching. That which is wrong is not.

Christopher Lake October 17, 2009 at 5:46 AMTypo– I meant to write, in in the last section of my comment that “this (glorification) will not happen without the person’s perseverance in the faith to the end, but the perseverance is *one* (rather than “once”– the typo to which I referred) which is empowered and ensured by God. I would love to read your reply to my (admittedly lengthy) comment! Take care and be blessed!

I don’t think the typo makes a difference in your meaning or my reply. I hope that you come back and read this reply and that it is helpful to you.

May you also be blessed exceedingly,

De Maria

If a person has faith, then works will be present

De Maria October 26, 2012 at 11:57 PM

Hi Terry,

I was blissfully reading through Ray’s website when I ran across this comment, to which apparently, no one responded. Soooo…here’s my attempt.

You said,
Terry July 19, 2008 at 2:22 AMHi Steve, we are really saved by the Lord Jesus alone – not the Lord Jesus plus are own works .

That’s a false dichotomy Terry. Have you not read in Scripture?

Philippians 2:11-13
King James Version (KJV)
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

The works which we do in obedience to Christ for our salvation are in fact God’s work through us.

However if a person has faith then good works will be present.

That is the Catholic Teaching.

Please consider the following passage and my bried comment.

Romans 5:6 “You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.

When we were powerless means when we were without grace.
Christ died for the ungodly means that Christ died for all men. Ungodly means mortal.

7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die.

Christ died not just for the good but also for the wicked, that they might be repent and turn to God:
Matthew 9:13
But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

And this, through no work of our own. This is the salvation apart from works to which St. Paul so frequently refers. Christ died for us because it was in the eternal plan of God. Christ died as an example that we should follow in His steps:
1 Peter 2:21
For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

Christ died that we would take up our Cross and also be saved:
Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

But this is no teaching about faith alone. It is by the grace of God that Jesus came to this earth, the only begotten Son of God, to die on the Cross that we might have life. Without any effort on our part. In fact, He came because so many men were not making any effort to do the good works of God and He provided the example they needed in order to turn to the Father and be saved.

Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!

We-means the Baptized believers in Christ.
Justified by His blood-means justified in the Sacraments of Christ.
Saved from God’s wrath through Him-means by obedience to His Commands:
John 14:21-23
King James Version (KJV)
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. 22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? 23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

10 For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

When we were God’s enemies means when we were living in the flesh, sinning without repentance:
Romans 6:16-17
King James Version (KJV)
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

What Paul is saying is that if God did the greater that is – saved us when we were powerless while we were ungodly sinners and his enemies then how much more shall we be saved now we are his children and part of His family.

St. Paul is taking poetic license. God does not save unrepentant sinners. God saves REPENTANT SINNERS. God saves the righteous. God saves those who have kept His Commandments:
Romans 2:1-7
King James Version (KJV)
1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. 2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. 3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Having become a child of God,

First you must be Baptized. Prior to that you must have accepted the grace of conversion, which is the gift of faith (Rom 4:16), turned to God and begun to seek Him (Rom 5:2, Heb 11:6). And then, seeking Him, studied to show yourself approved (2 Tim 2:15). And then, having learned God’s will, repented of your sins and begun to do the works which God prepared from the beginning (Eph 2:8-10, Acts 26:20)
the Ten Commandments. And then, request Baptism from the Church believing that God can do that which He promised (Mark 16:16, Acts 22:16). Then one becomes a child of God having been washed and renewed by the Holy Spirit in Baptism (Titus 3:5).

having been Adopted by Him, having been joined to Christ and transferred into the Kingdom of God’s beloved Son do you think its possible that one day He could disown you, kick you out of his family and transfer you back to the kingdom of darkness. It was unthinkable for Paul.

Which Paul? Certainly not the one who wrote the New Testament Epistles:
Hebrews 10:25-31
King James Version (KJV)
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

2 Corinthians 5:10-12
King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. 12 For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart.

Every blessing Terry

And to you,

Sincerely,

De Maria

Scripture says that God is our Helper

SK:Helper sounds so much like a step down for God.

Apparently, you are not familiar with the Word of God:

Psalm 54:4
Behold, God is mine helper: the Lord is with them that uphold my soul.

That is what Scripture says. Do you still deny it?

Sincerely,

De Maria

God is our Helper!

JS:In other words, God is our HELPER. God gives to us the stuff we need to save ourselves. As one of my Catholic teachers defined it, "it's the gas that enables you to get where you need to go." So, God is not the Savior but the Enabler, the Helper.

What does Scripture say?

Genesis 49²⁴ But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob; (from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel
²⁵ Even by the God of thy father, who shall help thee; and by the Almighty, who shall bless thee with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lieth under, blessings of the breasts, and of the womb:
²⁶ The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren.

2 Chronicles 14¹¹ And Asa cried unto the Lord his God, and said, Lord, it is nothing with thee to help, whether with many, or with them that have no power: help us, O Lord our God; for we rest on thee, and in thy name we go against this multitude. O Lord, thou art our God; let no man prevail against thee.

Psalm 40:17
But I am poor and needy; yet the Lord thinketh upon me: thou art my help and my deliverer; make no tarrying, O my God.

Psalm 54:4
Behold, God is mine helper: the Lord is with them that uphold my soul.

It is the Scriptures which say that God is our Helper and you deny it and ridicule the teaching of the Word of God.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Some Protestants might be saved

DH:
I...on the other hand...take a more delicate view here...I believe that my Protestant friends are missing out on the fullness of faith and practice that comes with being in full communion with the Catholic Church, but I don't automatically find that lack of fullness condemning for them...

I know Protestants that I am sure are saved...I know Catholics that I am sure are not...
...that's my view over the faith landscape...

You must not have read the rest of my post. I've highlighted the pertinent statements for you below:

However, those who do not accept the Sacraments of the Catholic Church must await the Judgment of God in the after life in order to be saved:
Revelation 22:13-15

King James Version (KJV)
¹³ I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
¹⁴ Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
¹⁵ For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.


God will judge them based upon their works:
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.³³⁷
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."³³⁸

Can you hear me now?

Sincerely,

De Maria

There are Catholics who disagree with the Church

TS:
It has to do with the hypocrisy of Catholic Double standard:

The Catholic Church's standards are those of God.

Catholics claim that the RC Church is their authority and any disagreement on its teachings is just among the people.

I have no idea what you mean. Did any Catholic ever claim that any Catholic was perfect? There are obviously certain Catholics who disagree with the Church and make it plain that they do. So what? That doesn't mean that the Church is not infallible. It simply means that disobedient Catholics exist in the Church. Have you not read the Scripture?

Matthew 13:24-30

King James Version (KJV)
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

The Church is the Kingdom of Heaven upon this earth. And there are tares in the wheat until the time of the harvest.

Matthew 13:38-40

King James Version (KJV)
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

Protestants claim that the Bible is their authority and any disagreement on its teachings is a swampland!

Claim is the correct and key word there. They "claim" the Bible is their authority, but they really only rely upon their own authority in exclusion of the Teachings of Scripture:
Proverbs 3:5

King James Version (KJV)
5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

2 Peter 1:19-21

King James Version (KJV)
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Do all Catholics agree with your interpretation of Catholic teachings?

I doubt it. But faithful Catholics understand that Christ speaks through the Catholic Church and therefore obey.

Does it depend on your personal interpretation on Vatican II ?

No. We depend upon the Church to understand the teachings of Jesus Christ and our application of them.

from http://www.latinmass-ctm.org/about/origin.htm
"Ever since 1968 when, as a result of erroneous interpretations and implementations of the Second Vatican Council's decisions, the centuries-old Sacrifice of the Mass became threatened with extinction"

That simply says that there were errors in the implementation of the 2nd Vatican Councils decrees. These folks are in full communion with the Church.

Subsequently, and at the direction of Francis Cardinal Spellman, then the Roman Catholic archbishop of New York, the Movement was incorporated under the laws of the State of New York as a non-profit, educational organization "to provide the Catholic laity with all information necessary for the correct understanding and implementation of the Second Vatican Council's decisions in full conformity with the traditional doctrine and practices of the Roman Catholic Church."
From the Remnant online Catholic newspaper

"Never before in the history of the Church has there been a Mass that featured women in the sanctuary, laymen giving out Holy Communion, Communion being given out in the hand, altar girls, polka and rock music, clowns, kissing and hugging, priests facing the people, etc.

Today all of these things have developed, despite the fact that the Second Vatican Council never called for such irreverent changes in the Mass.

And the Church is slowly eradicating all errors in the instructions for the celebration of the Mass. Recently, we had a correction in the language of the Mass.

Sincerely,

De Maria

God has given Protestants a sign

Numbers said:

What's wrong with that? God has not left His children in confusion, they study His Holy Canon of 66 books and come to conclusions, in other words, they get off the fence. 

The Holy Canon is of 73 books.

Note the following, because God is giving you a spiritual sign that your canon is incomplete. 6 is the mystical number of imperfection and evil. That is why 666 is the number of the Beast. Therefore God is telling you that your 66 book Bible is imperfect and incomplete.

7 is the number of perfection and covenant.

3 is the number of eternity and represents God.

Therefore God is telling the world that the 73 book Bible contains His covenant with mankind.

As they study their discernment increases, they are then able to see the lies all around them. 

That is true. Now, let's see where the lies are found. Protestants preach that we need to divest ourselves of Tradition. What does Scripture say:

2 Thessalonians 2:15

King James Version (KJV)

15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Protestants teach that we are justified by faith alone:

James 2:24

King James Version (KJV)

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Protestants teach that we are not to follow men:

1 Corinthians 11:1

King James Version (KJV)

1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Protestants teach people to rebel against the Church:

Matthew 18:17

King James Version (KJV)

17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

Sounds as though it is Protestants who are uttering profane and vain babblings.

Tit 1:7For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; Tit 1:8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; Tit 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers. 

Absolutely.

Protestants broke away from the Church which Jesus Christ established. Yet Scripture denounces all who set aside the authority of the Church and claim to have their own authority apart from the Church:

1 John 2:19

King James Version (KJV)

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Scripture says that we are saved by....

By grace: Ephesians 2:8-9, By works James 2:24,

Remember them which have spoken unto you the word of God

Prittie,

I am a born again Christian. Whatever is hard wired in there is by God. the Bible promises that God will teach us all things and bring all things to remmemberance, whatsoever Jesus said unto you" Jesus said that to his apostles before he left the earth. So we have the Holy Spirit that discerns things whetehr they be good or bad. We also have common sense and a brain God gave us. We also have our eyes and ears and we can see for ourselves. I'd say by those various compasses, I am safe. When baloney comes my way, it is easy to see, no hard wiring even needed.. its just common sense. and that common sense plus the Holy Spirit is a baloney meter (or that other word we use for "baloney' which I dont think i can post here because its a swear word, but it begins with a b. and ends with an s. People are so blind when hey blindly follow traditions based on man. They have a form of godliness but deny God.

The Bible also says:

Hebrews 13:7

King James Version (KJV)
⁷ Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

Hebrews 13:17

King James Version (KJV)
¹⁷ Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

What do you do with those verses? Cast them out?

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Protestantism contradicts Scripture.

Protestants teach Scripture alone. Scripture teaches Scripture and Tradition:
2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Protestants teach faith alone. Scripture teaches faith and works:
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Protestants teach not to follow men but Christ alone. Scripture teaches us to follow the Holy men of God who teach us the faith:

Hebrews 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

Protestants teach disobedience. Scripture teaches obedience unto salvation:

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

and many more things the Protestants teach in direct contradiction of the Word of God.

The people who don't agree with the Catholic Church, are deceived

LG said:The rules must not be so standard since so many people disagree with the Catholic eisegete.

The people who don't agree with the Catholic Church are those that are deceived by the Enemy. The Catholic Church is the Church of Jesus Christ:

Matthew 16:18-19

King James Version (KJV)

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Protestants teach heresy

Disco said:The Bible doesn't teach obedience to leades no matter what. The Bible doesn't teach obedience to heretics. Paul said follow him as he followed Christ not follow him if he decided to become a heretic.

That is true. The Bible doesn't teach obedience to heretics. Therefore, leave the Protestants behind. Because they teach many heresies.

Catholics are the blind following the blind.

The Catholic Church teaches the wisdom of God:

Ephesians 3:10

King James Version (KJV)

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Sincerely,

De Maria

When do you, as a Protestant, obey Hebrews 13:17?

Adam:

A Catholic in another thread says this verse means he will pick and choose when he will obey his bishop and when he will not. 

I follow the Church. Not individual Catholics who may or may not understand their faith.

Are we supposed to be impressed?

By what? By certain individuals? You are supposed to be impressed by the Word of God carried in Scripture and Tradition (2 Thess 2:15) and you are supposed to be so impressed that you obey God in that Word (Heb 5:9).

Sorry, but that verse says absolutely nothing about any sacrament or anything about confession.

It is because you don't understand the Traditions of Jesus Christ that you don't recognize the Sacrament of Confession which is there illustrated.

It is in the Sacrament of Confession most explicitly that we submit to and obey the Priests.

It is in the Sacrament of Confession most explicitly that the Priest is held accountable for our souls.

But you are ignoring the question. When do you, as a Protestant, obey this verse? More likely, you toss it out of the Scriptures and ignore it, since you are taught to follow no man and obey no man.

We know you guys like to make up tons of garbage as you go, but this one takes the cake.

That verse is in Scripture, the Word of God. When do you obey it?

Sincerely,

De Maria

Analysis of a Conversion, Three Tsunamis of grace

Grace alone is not Catholic Teaching

Before I begin, I want to remind Catholics that the Doctrine of Grace alone is a false doctrine which Protestants invented in order to deny the authority of the Church, the authority of Priests, the efficacy of the Sacraments and the necessity of good works.

The Catholic Church Teaches the necessity of Grace and that all things are by God’s grace.  Therefore, the Church, our Priests, the Sacraments and even the works which we do are the result of God’s grace.  But it is by our participation in the grace that it becomes efficacious in our lives.  The Catechism puts it this way:

1847 "God created us without us: but he did not will to save us without us." To receive his mercy, we must admit our faults. "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Why are we talking about Grace alone?

When I came back to faith in God, I was confused about this, because, well, let me just tell it.

By this time, I was married

As I’ve mentioned, I was an atheist from the around 7 years of age.  And I was going along on my merry, atheistic way.  I met a beautiful young lady, Catholic, and we were married.  I was married, three years, to my Catholic wife and hiding my atheism from her, because I loved her and didn’t want to give her any undue distress.  

We were married in the Church because she wouldn’t have it any other way.  She said, “Either we get married in the Church or we don’t get married.”  It was an ultimatum.

So, we got married in the Church.  Although, I gave the poor priest fits at every opportunity.  I don’t think he’d ever met a more uncooperative and unappreciative groom.  But he stuck to his guns and we had a perfectly valid and orthodox wedding.  So everyone thought.  Except that I didn't believe in God, which is definitely a canonical impediment.  (Don't worry, we've done it again, this time everything was right.)

Anyway, afterwards, I rarely went to Church with my wife, except for big events, to keep the peace.  On her part, my wife never nagged. She went to Mass, if not every Sunday.  At least, regularly.  She might miss for emergencies and special occasions.  But that was it.

First Tsunami, we’re going to have a baby

We had been trying to have a baby, for three years.  One day, in late October or early November, 1986, I came home from work to find my wife in the kitchen.  She was working back then, so it was rare to find her home.  We normally drove home from our respective jobs at around the same time.

Anyway, when she heard me, she walked up to me and said, “We’re having a baby.”  At that instant, I was transported.  It was as though there were an added depth or dimension to the present moment. Like moving in slow motion.  But, since I’ve always been hard of hearing.  And therefore, frequently misunderstand what people have actually said.  I heard myself ask her to repeat it.  She did.  And it confirmed what I thought I heard.  

I didn’t realize it, but I was on Cloud 9

I don’t know if you’ve ever felt that way.  I’ve actually had a great deal of experience with that, since I was an avid reader and an athlete.  It’s like when you’re reading a great book and you’re so absorbed that you lose track of time and reality.  You’re literally living in the book.

Or, when you’re playing an intense game and you’re lost in the moment.  I remember when I was in high school, playing basketball and the coach would call a time out.  He would have to snap us out of our fixation so that we could hear and understand what he was saying.  They call it, being in the zone.

This was very much like that, but in my opinion, deeper.  I could see and hear everything, but everything was moving in slow motion and colors were richer and deeper.  I walked outside and for the first time, I could see God’s hand at work in the universe.

From one moment to the next, I went from atheist to believer.  In one instant, I believed in God and all His goodness.  Every argument that I had ever used to deny God’s existence, I could now turn around to prove God’s existence.  I believe I received a gift of infused knowledge at that moment.  But I did not realize it.

All I know is that I looked at a cloud and knew with all certainty that God had put it there and that God was moving it.  I looked at a leaf and all the random veins within it and knew that God was the reason for those little canals.  I also knew that I had very little to do with the life that was being knit in my wife’s womb.  All I really did was have fun one night and now, something wonderful was happening and I was only the recipient of this gift.  Not its author.

That day,  I changed profoundly.  Before, I never thought about God.  From that moment, all I could think of was how I could repay God for such a wonderful gift.  I couldn’t think of anything.  So, I made up my mind to simply say “Thank you.”  Every waking moment, for the rest of my life.

Second Tsunami, productivity videos

The first tsunami of grace took me up into the heavens, in joy.  The second tsunami, knocked me to my knees, in tears.

Here’s how that started.  It was still 1986, around late November or early December.  The time of the year when nothing gets done around the office because of Thanksgiving and Christmas parties.  I was an accountant/auditor for a very large hospital.  One of the two largest in the world.  So, they picked this time to give us some continuing education.  They sent our whole office to a seminar on how to increase worker productivity.

The seminar consisted of two videos which we were to watch and then discuss.  Anyway, I think it was just two.  That’s all I remember.  The first one was about an experiment conducted by some big outfit, where they turned up the lights while people in a factory were working.  They turned them up and got more productivity.  So, at first they concluded that better visibility increased productivity.  Then they turned them down.  The more they turned them down, the more productive the people got.

Conclusion.  The lighting doesn’t matter, its whether management is paying attention that matters.  Its called the observation effect.

The second video was about a little girl who seemed to have a chronic injury on her forehead.  The Mom had brought her to a hospital to see why the wound kept coming back.  The Doctors couldn’t figure anything out.  But they started noticing that the wound would reappear or become aggravated every time the Mom visited.  They started to suspect the Mom was causing the injury.  So, they installed some hidden video cameras and had the Mom come to see her child.  The Mom came in and sat coldly with her child.  Then, the Mom left.  As soon as she was out the door, the child took a toy and smashed it against her forehead and howled in distress.  The Mom then rushed in and cradled the child in her arms and did her best to sooth her pain.

It turns out that the only time the child received affection from her Mom, was when she was sick or injured.

And THAT floored me.  I don’t know what lesson I was supposed to learn.  But all I saw was a baby that needed love.  And I couldn’t stop crying.  Most of the people in my office were moms.  I just told them that the film had really affected me.  But I cried and cried, all the way to the office and for many weeks.  Not just at the office, but also at home.  I couldn’t look at a child without remembering the child in the video and breaking down.  

Thank God it was the holiday season, because everybody’s productivity was down.  I couldn't do any work.  I spent hours on my knees in my cubicle, calling out to God (quietly, in my thoughts, of course) and asking Him to take care of my baby that was on the way.  I had come to realize that even if I was around, so many things could happen to my baby that were beyond my control.

I didn’t recover from that until the New Year.  Actually, I have never really recovered from that.  Even now, just thinking about that little girl, I’m tearing up.

I didn’t know it then, but that is a spiritual gift.  It is called the gift of tears.

One of my dumb thoughts

Before the second tsunami but after the first, I had a dumb thought pop into my head.  I had decided that I would not teach my child anything about God.  I’d let her, (somehow I knew she was a girl), decide for herself.  I’d let her go to Church with her Mom and I’d just keep on living my life.

I had never been afraid of hell

I couldn’t imagine it.  It was too distant a place.  

During one of those times that I was crying on my knees in my cubicle, I realized that children don’t do as you tell them.  They do as you do.  I could see my little girl going to hell along with me.  And that is when I became afraid of hell, for her sake.  I couldn’t forgive myself if my child wound up in hell, even if she was there with me.

So, from that point, I decided that I would teach my child all that I knew about God.  And I also became determined to learn all that I could about Him.

Third tsunami, my daughter was born

My mom and grandma had always said that every child brings a basket of grace.  I don’t know if its a Mexican saying or what.  But my child didn’t bring a little basket.  She brought brought a whole truckload!  

My daughter was born and we were in the hospital.  When I had her in my arms and had a little privacy, I dedicated her to God.  I simply said, “God, you know that I can’t raise her without you.  I am giving her back to You.  Right now!  You have to take care of her.  Because without you, I can do nothing.”

I was on Cloud 9 again and I told my wife I was going to call my mom and give her the good news.  There was a bank of pay phones downstairs in the waiting room.  So, I went there to call my mom.  The telephones were at the entrance to the waiting room and the waiting room was nearly empty.  Just a couple of people.  One man, sitting quietly on one side of the room.  And another, standing on the opposite side, looking out the window.

The Voice

As I picked up the phone, I heard a voice directly behind me.  So close that I felt the warm breath on the back of my neck.  “When will you keep your promises?”  I turned around, but no one was there.  Confused, I looked from one end of the waiting room to the other.  No one was close to me.

Then I heard the Voice again, “When will you keep your promises?”  Then, my life was opened before my eyes and I could see myself from the time I was a child to the present, always promising God that I would go to Church if He would only do this or that for me.  

Then, I came  back to the moment.  Determined to keep my promises.  At the time, I was confused about one thing.  I knew that when I made those promises, I meant the Catholic Mass.  But, I no longer believed in the Catholic Church.  So, I didn’t know where God wanted me to go to Church in order to keep my promise.  It couldn’t possibly be the Catholic Church, could it?

This is when I went through about a three year process of studying various religions until I came back to the Catholic Church.  You can read about that, here.

My confusion about grace alone

Perhaps you will understand why I came back believing in the doctrine of grace alone.  It wasn’t until I realized that the doctrine is used by Protestant to deny the fact of man’s free will response to God’s love that I understood my error. 

Obviously, if we do not accept God’s grace and act upon it, we remain in the same condition that we were in before.  You should realize that this is just a summary of my conversion.  There were times when I thought I was simply going nuts and was tempted to deny the grace of God.  But, thanks to God, I didn’t.

Afterwards

After coming back to the Catholic Church, I realized that I needed to share the gift that I had received. And so, I’ve dedicated myself to teaching the Catholic Faith from that point.  First to my children and then, to anyone who will listen.

Thanks for listening.  I hope my conversion is a blessing to you.  I hope it also gives you hope and consolation if your spouse or children are far from God.