Saved by grace in the Sacraments - 15

 De Maria

1 day ago

GR-@De Maria you're engaging in the word-concept fallacy which is that if the exact word isn't there the concept isn't there. DM-I don't think so. You see, the word and concept are both there. Let's look at James 2:24. James 2:24 King James Version 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

What word are you looking for? Faith? There it is. "Faith only" is exactly the same as "faith alone". The word is there, agreed? So is the word, justified. So, let's break it down. By works a man is justified- So, works are necessary for justification. not by faith only.- Not what? From the context, not justified by faith only. Thus, faith requires something else in order for a man to be justified. Obviously, from this one verse, one can see that it is works which are necessary for said justification. Is this consistent with the Teaching of St. Paul? Yes. St. Paul says in many places: Romans 2:13 King James Version 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. Romans 11: 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. GR-Here's one way you can tell justification by faith alone is taught. Read through Romans 1-5. Do you get the anticipated objection of Romans 6:1? DM-You'll have to explain your logic. Here's what I see in Romans 6: 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. If you, being saved, yield to sin, you will be condemned. But if you yield yourselves to God, you will be saved. It is more clearly taught in another verse by St. Paul. Philippians 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

salvation by faith alone is a shell game

1. DE MARIA May 26, 2013 at 5:34 am

   JASON LOH May 25, 2013 at 6:58 pm

   I think you have just reversed our respective theological positions. Protestants (confessional Reformed and Lutheran) do not teach and speak of salvation as being on the basis of one’s faithfulness but precisely on the faith and faithfulness of Christ.

   That’s the shell game Jason. You claim salvation by faith “alone”. Whose faith does that speak of?

   Besides, if it were by Christ’s faith and faithfulness, that would be universalism, the salvation of all regardless of their sins, which many of you preach as well.

   Or if you if will, salvation is God justifying the sinner apart from the Law.

   That’s a description of justification in Baptism and the Sacraments, where we approach God calling on Jesus name with complete faith that He will accomplish in us that which He promised, the washing of our sins.

   If I may add Luther here: If the sinner is judged but not saved on the basis of the Law, then God’s decree of justification is synonymous with election and predestination. Thus, Romans 9:18 – “[He] hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth” as quoted by Jonathan (actually) support the Protestant position (and not the RC) since it clearly refers to 1. unconditional predestination and 2. particular salvific will of God. No. 1 is not official or mainstream RC teaching and No.2 is explicitly condemned by the Church.

   You read that as though God was flippant. But God has already revealed to whom He will show His mercy:
   Exodus 20:6
   King James Version (KJV)
   6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

   Those who keep the Commandments, those who do the works of God, those who obey His Son, are they whom He will justify and save. That is from Scripture, properly understood:
   Romans 2:13
   King James Version (KJV)
   13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

   Sincerely,

   De Maria

God is our Judge

DE MARIA May 23, 2013 at 7:57 pm

TOA  May 23, 2013 at 7:15 pmThe “good” that atheists do or that any of us do, won’t redeem us.

1. All men have been redeemed by the blood of Christ.
2 Corinthians 5:15
And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

2. But no man will be saved who does not do good.
1 Corinthians 6:9
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

First of all, “no one does good, no not one” (Romans)

God takes into account the good which people do in every nation:
ames 2:25
Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

We are saved by grace THROUGH faith. Can anyone tell me what sort of faith that atheists have in Christ Jesus?

The sort of faith that is found in the law which God put in their hearts:
Romans 2:14-16
King James Version (KJV)
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Jesus died for the ungodly

1. MT said: 
   I hope you now can see the problem with interpreting the "we's" "us's" and "our's" in Romans 5:1-11 as applying universally to all humanity without exception. It leads to universalism, or the doctrine that all are now or will be saved.
   
   It is you who did so. I know what we, us and our means. I also know how to understand Rom 5:6 correctly. Ungodly means those who are not gods. Those who are not divine. Those who are mortal.

   Anyway, there's no need for me to debunk your whole article. The problem is your presupposition. Your starting point is false, your logic is wrong and the makes your conclusion false.
2. This is the truth.
   
   1 Jesus died for the ungodly.
   2 That includes us and all people and all creation.
   3 But those who accepted His sacrifice, repented of their sins, obeyed His Word and participated in His Sacraments. And must continue doing good their entire life. If they do, God will grant them eternal life.
   4 Those who do not accept His sacrifice, do not repent of their sins and will be condemned to hell.
   
   Romans 2:1-13
   King James Version (KJV)
   1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
   
   2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
   
   3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
   
   4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
   
   5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
   
   6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
   
   7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
   
   8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
   
   9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
   
   10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
   
   11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
   
   12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
   
   13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Jesus died for all

Before I respond, I think De Maria's objection makes perfect sense, given his Roman Catholic perspective. 

The Catholic perspective is not the one you described. I have corrected your straw man and provided the true Catholic perspective.

And to complicate matters for the Reformed position, I must admit at the outset that I am unaware of any passage that specifically says "God died only for the elect." That said, what follows is a response to both De Maria's take onRomans 5:6 and De Maria's request for a passage that teaches that God died for the elect. Let's first begin with Romans 5:6

Romans 5:6 in Context

The problem is your presupposition. You start from the erroneous premise that Jesus died only for the elect. Therefore, when St. Paul says, "He died for US…" you read into it that He "only" died for those of us who chose to accept His sacrifice. But Rom 5:6 is the correction to that error in case anyone were to fall into it.

St. Paul says, "He died for US…" But in Rom 5:6, he clarifies that Jesus died for the ungodly. That means Jesus died for all creation. He died for the world. He died for us because He died for all. We are not excluded when we way He died for all. We are included in that number. We are a subset of that number.

Let's look at Rom 5:1-11 in context. First, St. Paul is contrasting the Jews and the Gentiles. He is showing how the Gentiles are now grafted into the tree and are savable. Because Jews thought that God would not save Gentiles.

So, we begin where he says:

Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith 2 into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 

We, in this verse is a reference to Catholics. Although not yet called Catholics, it is Catholics who are justified by faith through the Sacraments. And that is what St. Paul is talking about. We who are justified by faith through the Sacraments.

3 Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us. 

Here he mentions suffering which is an essential part of salvation. Unless we suffer with Christ, we will not be saved with Him:

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 

Here is the correction. While we were still weak. The we refers to those who prior to Christ's sacrifice were still sinners.

Note that He didn't say, "while we were still weak, Christ died for US." Why not say it. He had used that pronoun approximately 13 times in the past 11 sentences. But that is not what he means. He means exactly what the verse says. While we were sinners, weak in the flesh, Christ died for all who are not God. Christ died for all who are not divine. Christ died for the whole world. Christ died for all.

Therefore, Christ died for us because He died for all.

7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die—8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Then, St. Paul refocuses on those who have repented and accepted God's call. But that is not a denial of the fact that Jesus died for all.

9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 

This is a reference to the Mass and the original Passover, where God passed over the Hebrews who had marked their door post with the blood of the lamb.

Christ is now our Passover and we are justified in His Blood when we drink of the Cup of Salvation. And when we drink of His Blood, we are saved from God's anger.

10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 

This is still a reference to the Eucharist.

While we were dead in our sins, Jesus died for us in order that we might be reconciled to God. Now that we are reconciled to God, Jesus saves us by His life. His Blood that He shed for us on the Cross, is in the Holy Eucharist and is our life. If we partake of it.

11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation (Romans 5:1-11, ESV).

Furthermore, still talking about those who live according to the Catholic Faith, we now rejoice because God offers us forgiveness in the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

Sincerely,

De Maria

The true Catholic position

MT said: 

Contrast this with the Reformed understanding that Christ made specific atonement for the elect, and that everyone for whom Christ died will be saved and that everyone else will be lost since Christ has not died in their place. 

Let's contrast the true Catholic position and not your version thereof.

Jesus Christ died for all. Some have refused to accept His offer of salvation, disobeyed Him and died in their sins. Contrast that to the Reformed misunderstanding that God elected some people to damnation without giving them the opportunity to be saved. And they believe this even though Scripture says:

1 Timothy 2:4

Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Just do good and we'll find a meeting point

Have you read this in Scripture?

Luke 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

Obviously, Jesus, Himself, explains that even those who attack Jesus Christ (i.e. Son of man), may be forgiven. Therefore, those who do the will of God and yet do not know Christ, as, for instance, the Jews, may, in the end, be forgiven.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Jesus Christ is explicit, that even some who reject Him, will be saved. Scripture is also explicit, that it is Jesus who judges who is saved. 

Romans 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

As the parable is clear to explain, it is not the one who denies Christ by word which will be condemned. But the one who does not do His will:

Matthew 21:28 But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.

29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.

30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.

31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

Therefore, God judges a man by his works. Not by his faith alone.

Coming to Christ means coming to His Sacraments which are administered by His Church. Those who do not come to His Church do not come to Christ and must await the Judgment in order to receive the grace of eternal life. All who deny the Sacraments put themselves under the law and are judged according to the law. 

But Judgment comes first to the House of God, through the Sacraments. Wherein, those who do the Will of God, walk amongst the Saints of God, in this life.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Even though atheists and Jews and Muslims might be saved, it is by no means going to be easy for them to be so. 

Frankly speaking, it won't be easy for any ANTI-Catholics to be saved. The Catholic Church (and the other Sacramental, Apostolic Churches, such as the Orthodox) affords the greatest assistance for salvation, in the Sacraments of Jesus Christ.

Mark 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

 Jesus is explaining that many people will inadvertently reject Christ even when Christ is the One whom they seek and await:

John 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. 39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

John 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

Unlike you or I, God can read the heart. 

Have you not read in Scripture that:

Matthew 21:31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

This is why Pope Francis said, 
"Francis based his homily on the message of Christ to his disciples taken from the Gospel of Mark. Francis delivered his message by sharing a story of a Catholic who asked a priest if atheists were saved by Christ.  

"They complain," Francis said, "If he is not one of us, he cannot do good. If he is not of our party, he cannot do good." He explained that Jesus corrected them, "Do not hinder him, he says, let him do good."
The disciples, Pope Francis explained, "were a little intolerant," closed off by the idea of possessing the truth, convinced that "those who do not have the truth, cannot do good." "This was wrong... Jesus broadens the horizon." Pope Francis said, "The root of this possibility of doing good - that we all have - is in creation." 

"Even them, everyone, we all have the duty to do good, Pope Francis said on Vatican Radio.
"Just do good" was his challenge, "and we'll find a meeting point."  

Francis explained himself, "The Lord created us in His image and likeness, and we are the image of the Lord, and He does good and all of us have this commandment at heart, do good and do not do evil. All of us. 'But, Father, this is not Catholic! He cannot do good.' Yes, he can... "The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ, all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! 'Father, the atheists?' Even the atheists. Everyone!" We must meet one another doing good. 'But I don't believe, Father, I am an atheist!' But do good: we will meet one another there."
http://www.catholic.org/news/hf/fait...y.php?id=51077

Now, Protestants will object that we are saved by "faith alone." 

But Scripture proves them wrong. Because Scripture says that faith alone is a gong and a clanging cymbal. Whereas, love (i.e. charity) is the greatest of these. And good works, are expressions of love:

1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. 4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; 6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; 7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. 8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.  11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.  12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Faith alone, is dead.