We are saved by faith and works, in a manner of speaking

 Catholic doctrine says:

...we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that
precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification. (Trent VI, Chapter VIII)

Therefore, it is true, that we are saved by faith and works, but only in a manner of speaking.

Our faith does not save, we don't save ourselves.
Our works do not save, we don't save ourselves.

God saves those who demonstrate their faith in works of love. God grants eternal life to those who keep His Commandments.

Romans 2:13
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.


Revelation 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.



What say you?

Sincerely,

De Maria

Saved by grace in the Sacraments - 13

 

De Maria

1 day ago

 GR,

Please post where St. Paul mentions "faith alone". The only place I see "faith alone" it is rejected as a means of justification: James 2:24 King James Version 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Saved by grace in the Sacraments - 6

 

De Maria

1 day ago

 BL-Well they may be true to you but not necessarily true to scripture. DM-On the contrary, they are absolutely true to Scripture since Scripture is based upon the Teachings of the Catholic Church. Jesus did not write any Scripture. He commanded the Church to teach and the New Testament is the result of the Teaching of the Church. BL-Purgatory and indulgences are both taught as truth but the only way to provide biblical verses to prove them is by taking verses out of context. DM-Let's see. Thanks for combining Purgatory and indulgences since they are basically the same Teaching. Both are based on the fact that there is a Heavenly Treasury where our good works are stored and God uses them to cleanse our souls of sin. There are many Scriptures to support both Teachings, but here is one, show me where it is out of context: Luke 12:33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth. Notice that Jesus is Teaching us to buy our way into heaven. With our alms we buy bags of heavenly treasure. Question, what is the heavenly treasure for? Answer, to release us from Purgatory. What is another name for the heavenly treasure? Indulgences. BL- justification is God's righteous act of removing the condemnation, guilt, and penalty of sin, by grace, while, at the same time, declaring the unrighteous to be righteous, through faith in Christ's atoning sacrifice. DM-Another word for God's righteous act which you describe above is "forgiveness". What must one DO in order to receive this forgiveness? Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. Do you deny that repentance is necessary? BL-God's Word says that we are saved by grace through faith in Christ Jesus and not by our own efforts or works (Ephesians 2:8-9) DM-That describes that which happens in the Sacraments. It is in the Sacraments that we are saved by grace when we proclaim our faith in Jesus Christ. It is not our work, but the work of God. However, only those who have done good works can present themselves for the Sacraments. Notice Titus 3:5 says, "not by the righteous works are we saved, but by His mercy in the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit. This is the operation of God in which we must have faith. Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. BL-In his letter to the Galatians, Paul argues for “faith in Jesus Christ” as the sole avenue to “justification.” (Galatians 2: 16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.. DM-That doesn't mean what you think it means. Notice what it says about the Law of Moses, elsewhere in Scripture: Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses The Law of Moses does not produce perfect justification. It does not remove Original Sin. But expressing our faith in Jesus by accepting the operation of God, the regeneration and renewal of God the Holy Spirit, in Baptism, produces the perfect justification of the New Testament. Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. BL-He expresses concern that the church in Galatia has returned to observance of the Mosaic Law and rituals and urges its members to despair of achieving justification through “human effort” and to instead solely embrace “faith expressing itself through love” . For Paul, “faith in Jesus Christ,” rather than adherence to Mosaic law, is the only way to be “justified.” DM-St. Paul is right. Notice that faith expressing itself in love, or better yet, Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. Faith which worketh by love is also a human effort. Let's see what else St. Paul says in Galatians: Galatians 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. BL-If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because that he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema. That is from the council of Trent and you might notice nowhere in the entire new testament do you find curses for anyone who does not believe exactly as you are told. DM-On the contrary, look at Gal 2:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. There are a few others, but you may not recognize them as curses. For example, Matthew 18:17 King James Version 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. To treat someone as a heathen and a publican is to cast them out of the Church and therefore to withhold from them the Sacraments of grace without which one can not be saved. BL- So I hold to scripture that tells me (Galatians 2:16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. DM-That is the Teaching of the Catholic Church. Faith in Jesus Christ is taught only in the Catholic Church. BL-And I do not hold to any church council that employs curses for obedience! DM-Then you deny the Teaching of Scripture. BL-2 Thess 2:15 A verse out of context. What is therefore there for? It tells you that the belief in the resurrection discussed in the preceding chapter is what Paul is referencing here , not that all traditions must be accepted. DM-So all you need to believe is the resurrection? Is that what you mean? Whereas, it is obvious that he is making reference to all of the Doctrines which are Taught by the Church because they come directly from Jesus Christ. Now, I also mentioned James 2:24 which says: James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. By works a man is justified, not by faith alone BL-Any doctrine not found in contextual scripture should not be taught by any church regardless of whether it be Catholic or denominational. It is the Church which teaches the Word of God, just as commanded by Christ and there are many members in the church doing just that spreading the Gospel . DM-The doctrines of faith alone and Scripture alone are not taught in contextual Scripture. Any doctrine which contradicts the Catholic Church will not be found in contextual scripture.

Saved by grace in the Sacraments - 2

 

De Maria

2 days ago

 BL,

Certainly God does the saving. But He only saves those who do good works. Its very simple. You said it yourself.

Repenting is a good work. Following Christ is a good work. Notice what Christ said to the Rich Young Man. In order to be saved, you must keep all the Commandments, and then sell all you have and then come and follow Me. Matt 19:21. Nothing about Christ's righteousness being imputed to anyone by faith alone.

Saved by grace in the Sacraments - 1

 

De Maria

2 days ago

ROM,

Its like this. You are saved by faith, but not by faith alone as some claim. And you may not be saved by showing up to Mass. But you won't be saved if you don't. See Heb 10:25-30.

And yes, you are saved by going to Confession and repenting of your sins. That is how a man reconciles with God. See 2 Cor 5:18.

And finally, you are saved by FAITH that God alone can save you, through the Sacraments which are the works of God, it is FAITH in His operation that one is saved, not by our works, but by the Washing of Regeneration which is the operation of the Holy Spirit. See Titus 3:5; Col 2:12

Judgement will come first to those in the House of God

 

1. 
   

   DE MARIA May 25, 2013 at 10:59 am

   RAYN May 24, 2013 at 10:40 pm
   I’ll continue to maintain what I said: for someone who isn’t familiar with the doctrine the current Pope regularly confesses publicly, then his statement could be taken to mean universalism. That said, sure, Catholics seem to get it. I don’t see any of the outbursts coming from Catholics.

   Yes, we understand the Pope. The Pope is thoroughly Catholic.

   Nevertheless, this provokes good questions about the inclusivism apparent in Roman Catholic theology, and the inability of Roman Catholic theologians to properly distinguish between general revelation (which is law, what you must do) and special revelation (gospel, what God in Christ has done on behalf of his people).

   Did you make this distinction up on your own? If not, please show me from Scripture.

   In Romans 1:18-3:20 the Apostle is driving toward his gospel presentation (which begins in Romans 3:21) by showing the necessity of it.

   We accept the necessity of the Gospel. What we are debating is the contents of the Gospel or what it truly means.

   We must keep in mind the whole time that we’re reading Romans 1:18-3:20 the conclusion of Paul’s arguement — he tells you what it is in 3:9, “we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin,” after which he quotes a plethora of Old Testament Scripture to support that conclusion.

   All that he wrote is true.

   Whatever you think Paul means in that section, if it contradicts his own clearly stated conclusion, you haven’t understood that passage.

   That’s part of the problem. You claim that St. Paul speaks clearly. But Scripture tells you different and yet all Protestants refuse to believe what Scripture says about St. Paul’s writings:
   2 Peter 3:16
   As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

   We, however, understand that St. Paul says some things which we must study in order to understand correctly.

   The purpose of his arguement is to shut the whole world up in their guilt before God so that they’ll listen when he gives the glorious “but” in Romans 3:21! “For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes the knowledge of sin,” (Romans 3:20).

   That is Catholic Teaching. But you don’t understand it correctly.

   By the term “the law”, St. Paul is speaking of the Old Covenant through which no man was ever justified. To be justified is to wash away sins. Here is what St. Paul says elsewhere:
   Hebrews 10:4
   For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

   The Old Law, the Old Covenant, did not justify. But doers of the law, will be justified, the law of the Ten Commandments:
   Romans 2:13
   King James Version (KJV)
   13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

   So Romans 1&2 shows that while the whole world knows what God requires in the law, since it is written on their conscience, and since Jews know the law even more clearly in the Scriptures, that simply shows that they are accountable for their sin — not that they’re actually attaining righteousness by whatever means.

   On the contrary, what it shows is that those who do the righteous works of God will be justified by God. Whether they are Jew or Gentile:
   Romans 2:1-13
   King James Version (KJV)
   1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. 2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. 3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
   12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

   If you want righteousness before God, Paul directs us outside of ourselves. “But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it — the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe” (Romans 3:21-22).

   Faith in Jesus Christ is not outside of ourselves. It is in our hearts.
   John 14:21
   He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

   Paul says that gentiles have the work of the law written on their hearts. Sure, we see this from the fact that nonbelievers build hospitals — glorious testimony to the fact that God has not abandoned the creation but is being patient with all until they come to repentance in Christ (Romans 2:4). But they are warned that apart from repentance they will only have to face God’s wrath. God will be just on the last day when he judges because everyone whom he condemns has had sufficient knowledge of what God requires in the law — but saving knowledge of God in Christ comes only through the good news Paul announces in Romans 3 which he no where says is inherent in creation, but rather distinguishes it from it.

   It will certainly be very difficult for non-believers to obey Christ and be saved. But you are misunderstanding the Scripture. St. Paul is saying that if you want to walk with the Saints in this life, you must obey Christ and keep the precepts of His Faith, His Church. But if you don’t, you must await the Judgment where all men will be judged. St. Peter says the same thing:
   1 Peter 4:17
   For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

   Bottomline, you guys are arguing a straw man of your own making. The Catholic Church teaches universalism in this sense. ALL men, universally, will be judged by God. The Catholic Church does not teach that all men are saved. Nor does Pope Francis.

   Sincerely,

   De Maria

Only those who obey Christ will be saved

1. DE MARIA May 25, 2013 at 10:34 am

   ROBERT May 25, 2013 at 10:16 am
   De Maria,
   Actually, I don’t feel good about myself. I am confident in my salvation not because I am faithful but because the Judge became incarnate and gave His life for me,

   He gave His life for all men. Including those who reject Him and wind up condemned.
   Hebrews 2:3
   How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

   and, believing in His resurrection I am saved.

   Only those who obey Christ will be saved:
   Hebrews 5:9
   And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

   Your personal claims of salvation amount to the sin of presumption. You have exalted yourself above your station:
   Luke 18:14 ….for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

   Before God’s bar of justice, I am not faithful.

   If you know this for a fact, then how are you saved? Only the holy will see the Lord. Not the faithless.
   Hebrews 12:14
   Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

   He doesn’t grade on a curve, y’know.

   How God grades is His business.

   Throwing out a random verse from Romans 14 that is not dealing with justification proves nothing.

   Whenever you are ready, we can go through the Scriptures which deal with justification. Let us begin with this one:
   Romans 2:13
   (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

   You should actually try and make an argument from a verse that is pertinent to the situation.

   You should try to understand Scripture according to the way Scripture prescribes:
   2 Corinthians 3:6
   Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

   Apparently, you don’t know that you are saved. At least you’re being consistent with Roman teaching.

   It is from Scripture. We leave judgment to almighty God:
   

   1 Corinthians 4:2-4
   King James Version (KJV)
   2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful. 3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. 4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

   But I tell you that you can know you are saved and that God wants you to know if you are saved. But that would mean trusting in Christ alone and not in a church that cannot save you. If you can participate in the mass daily and still end up in hell, the sacraments are doing absolutely nothing for you.

   Whether the Sacraments and the Mass are doing anything for me is between me and God. You need to attend to your own duty.
   

   Luke 17:10
   So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

   Sincerely,

   De Maria