Showing posts with label Bible canon. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Bible canon. Show all posts

Saturday, February 28, 2015

Trent affirmed that the Catholic Church has had a canon of Scripture since 400 ad

MICHAEL TAYLOR February 10, 2015 at 4:50 pmFalse dichotomy. He gave us both. You might as well say God didn’t give us bread, but only bakers.
Apparently you hold to the view that there is no canon until someone tells you there is a canon. Does that mean there was no canon until Trent?
More proof that you don’t know what you are talking about.
Trent affirmed that the Catholic Church has had a canon of Scripture since 400 ad. That is when the Vulgate was put together:
Council of Trent Session IV
….It has thought it proper, moreover, to insert in this decree a list of the sacred books, lest a doubt might arise in the mind of someone as to which are the books received by this council.[4]
They are the following:
Of the Old Testament, the five books of Moses, namely, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; Josue, Judges, Ruth, the four books of Kings, two of Paralipomenon, the first and second of Esdras, the latter of which is called Nehemias, Tobias, Judith, Esther, Job, the Davidic Psalter of 150 Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, the Canticle of Canticles, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Isaias, Jeremias, with Baruch, Ezechiel, Daniel, the twelve minor Prophets, namely, Osee, Joel, Amos, Abdias, Jonas, Micheas, Nahum, Habacuc, Sophonias, Aggeus, Zacharias, Malachias; two books of Machabees, the first and second.
Of the New Testament, the four Gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John; the Acts of the Apostles written by Luke the Evangelist; fourteen Epistles of Paul the Apostle, to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, to the Galatians, to the Ephesians, to the Philippians, to the Colossians, two to the Thessalonians, two to Timothy, to Titus, to Philemon, to the Hebrews; two of Peter the Apostle, three of John the Apostle, one of James the Apostle, one of Jude the Apostle, and the Apocalypse of John the Apostle.
If anyone does not accept as sacred and canonical the aforesaid books in their entirety and with all their parts, as they have been accustomed to be read in the Catholic Church and as they are contained in the old Latin Vulgate Edition, and knowingly and deliberately rejects the aforesaid traditions, let him be anathema.
I ask because that is the first time your church issued an allegedly infallible definition of the canon.
And she infallibly declared the Old Latin Vulgate, which was in use from the 4th century, to be sacred and canonical.
Of course. But the supposition that the RCC is the church Christ founded is just that–a supposition.
On the contrary, it is absolutely true. The only way you can deny it is by rejecting the truth.
Luther didn’t want a new church. None of the Reformers did. But Rome forced the issue in defining a false Gospel as the Gospel.
It is Luther who invented a new gospel.
You exaggerate your own unity. You don’t split into denominations, you polarize from within….
On the contrary, Catholics may have certain theological disagreements, but most of us will submit to the authority of the Pope when he settles the argument.
The fact that some who have been Catholic would rather be cast out of the Church then submit, only proves that the disciplinary procedure which Jesus Christ put in place is still working:
Matthew 18:17New International Version (NIV)
17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
But you only think you know what to believe because you believe Rome gets to tell you what to believe and you believe this because Rome tells you so.
So does Scripture.
Ephesians 3:10New International Version (NIV)
10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,
And if Rome tells you Mary was conceived without sin you gulp that down hook, like and sinker as if this were the “default” belief of the church catholic.
It is. You see, the beliefs of the Catholic Church existed before the New Testament. It is based upon the beliefs which Jesus Christ passed down that the New Testament was written.

Wednesday, October 29, 2014

Which book of the Bible is essential to salvation?

Lutero:
When it comes to the 'extra' books found in the Roman Catholic Bible, just exactly how did they get there?
 They are part of the Old Testament which is included in the Vulgate by St. Jerome.

Many Roman Catholics wonder why and how we can say we have the Bible and yet non-RC Bibles do not include these 'extra' books which are obviously found in theirs. What do these 'extra' books contain?
 Historical, metaphorical, wisdom and prophetic literature of the Jews.

Why are they there?
 For our spiritual edification.

Are they essential to salvation

Which book of the Bible is essential to salvation? There are many lessons in most books of the Bible which are essential to salvation.

-- and if they are not - why not?

First, you'll have to prove which books you consider essential. Then which doctrines you consider essential, for instance Sola Scriptura, is it essential. Then since you believe in Sola Scriptura, you'll have to provide the Scripture and verse proving all these things are required in Scripture.

Can Roman Catholics who really know, give some intelligent and meaningful answers to these questions?

They have continually done so. But the same confused and illogical objections and questions are repeated by Protestants.

Whereas, no intelligent or meaningful response is forthcoming concerning the justification for the doctrine of Sola Scriptura from Scripture.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Monday, October 27, 2014

The Epistle of James is a canonical book


De Maria said...
Proteus,

I asked, "do you agree with Luther's attack against a canonical book of Scripture."

this was the answer you gave:
My response was to your question as to whether i agreed with attacking the veracity of a canonical book of the Bible, in which i pointed out that what Luther attacked was not part of your infallible canon at the time, and that he had scholarly reasons for disallowing it as Scripture, ....

Correct me if I'm wrong. But haven't you and I discussed the canon of Scripture in the past and you said that the canonical books were selected by the Holy Spirit before they were even put in the Bible by the Catholic Church?

Now you say that the Epistle of James was not a canonical book by the 15th century during Luther's lifetime?

You're digging a deeper and deeper hole.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Sunday, October 26, 2014

Scripture tells us to follow men who follow Jesus

Proteus said:
Your understanding has been an issue before,…. I am not much of a follower of men personally, probably to a fault,

I'm glad you said that, because Scripture says:
Philippians 3:17 
Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

And therefore, the Word of God tells us to follow MEN.

and can differ as i see fit, and have limited interest in Luther but from what i know of him i see him as a man of courageous faith who provided some necessary moral and doctrinal correction,….The claims of the Catholic blogger was one of them and your attempt to equate Luther's rejection of James with the promotion of moral laity also is a stretch. 

Please quote me. Because I don't remember making any such promotion. However, I did claim that you avoid responding to questions. And this is a case in point.


Anyway, it is Rome that most evidences it believes faith without works (which signify Scripture regeneration) will save them, , because of faith in Rome to save anyone who die in her arms, and as you promote a church and not simply a faith, as we do, when Rome is reformed then less souls will leave it due to its spiritual lack.

Whether anyone leaves the Catholic Church is besides the point. The point being discussed is whether you agree with Luther that the Canonical book known as the Epistle of St. James contradicts Scripture.



It is indeed a jab, an overall statement which is based upon abundant evidence , 
Nah. Nothing but innuendo.

and as a former Catholic in a heavenly Catholic region

Amen to that. Because the Catholic Church is heaven on earth!

who personally knows both sides, becoming manifestly born again while still a Catholic, .... The more their view of the Bible is like evangelicals then the more conservative they are.

Conservative does not mean good or virtuous. And you have gone very far around the block and yet I perceive no answer to the simple question asked of you.




I have not contended that Luther did not reject James as regards what actually appropriates justification, at least initially, or as not being Scripture, but the links i provided enables more objectivity. 

Thank you. Finally an answer to the question at issue. There is nothing you can provide which can defend Luther's attack on the Word of God (i.e. his attack on the Epistle of St. James.) All you can do is justify his position.



And due to your preoccupation with an issue which does not correspond to what my “findings” show, and which required an extended exchange which requires a multiplicity of posts on a blog as this and the time it takes, and as i have lots to do, and the Catholic restriction on objectivity when things challenge their faith, i think the exchange on this topic needs to end for now.


It is your choice to write reams of non related material in order to justify Luther's attack towards a canonical book of the Bible.

Sincerely,
De Maria

Thursday, October 23, 2014

Jesus used the Septuagint


Calvin:
I'm not sure I exactly understand what you are asking, so forgive me if you think I am avoiding the question.
The Jewish Canon, that Scripture which Jesus Himself believed in did not include the Apocryphal books.
The Jewish Canon which Jesus used is called the Septuagint. It contained the Deuterocanonicals. 


The number of books in the Hebrew Old Testament is 24 in the Hebrew method of counting which is equivalent to the 39 books we have in our English translations with our English methods of counting.
Actually, that is the Old Testament which was modified by the Hebrew speaking Jews in the 2nd Century after Christ. In rebellion of the Tradition of Jesus Christ and as a result of the Jewish persecution of the Christian Church, the Jews decided to remove from the Bible any books which were written in the Greek Language. 

You hold in your hands, the Old Testament held by those who oppose Christ.


The apocryphal books were only included in the Old Testament as late as the non-Christian Greek translation called The Septuagint.
The Old Testament is also non-Christian. The Old Testament is Jewish, including the Septuagint.


In other words, the Jewish Old Testament that Jesus believed to be authoritative did not contain the Apocryphal books.
Yes. It did. Jesus read from the Septuagint.


The Septuagint was translated around 300 B.C. while the earliest copies that we have are from 300 A.D. and it was between these 600 years that the Apocryphal books crept into the Greek Canon, yet they never appeared in the Hebrew Canon, nor did Jesus ever quote them or consider them to be authoritative.
There are many books of the OT which Jesus did not quote. If you were to throw them all out, your Bible would be very slim.


No New Testament book references an Apocryphal book as authoritative. Jesus does not teach from it.
Again, very few Old Testament books are referenced in the New Testament at all. If that is the criteria for authoritativeness, then you will have a very slim Bible.


Jesus says in Luke 24:44, "He said to them, 'This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms" (NIV).
So it does. But that does not say, "throw out the Deuterocanonicals." And we see that Jesus and the Apostles included the Deuterocanonicals in their preaching and teaching:

Matt. 6:19-20 - Jesus' statement about laying up for yourselves treasure in heaven follows Sirach 29:11 - lay up your treasure.

Mark 9:48 - description of hell where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched references Judith 16:17.

Luke 21:24 - Jesus' usage of "fall by the edge of the sword" follows Sirach 28:18.

John 3:13 - who has ascended into heaven but He who descended from heaven references Baruch 3:29.

1 Cor. 2:16 - Paul's question, "who has known the mind of the Lord?" references Wisdom 9:13.

James 1:19 - let every man be quick to hear and slow to respond follows Sirach 5:11.

Therefore, Jesus and the Apostles were aware of the Deuterocanonicals but never denied the inspiration thereof.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Sunday, June 22, 2014

The Catholic Church formally acknowledged the NT in many councils centuries before Protestants existed.



Lutero:

demaria,

Correction. The RCC did not formally acknowledge the NT until Trent. Protestants existed before that.

Peace
Lutero?! What are you talking about? The Catholic Church formally acknowledged the NT in many councils AND OFFICIALLY PRINTED THE NEW TESTAMENT IN THE VULGATE centuries before Protestants existed.

Sincerely,

De Maria
Which Came First - the Bible or the Church?

Wednesday, February 13, 2013

The Catholic Church codified the Bible




Hi Lutero
What do you mean “Catholic Church codified the books of the Bible?” You mean the CC wrote the Bible?
The Old Testament Septuagint was written by Jews. It is the version of the Old Testament which Jesus used. The Catholic Church uses the Septuagint version of the Old Testament. It includes those books which Protestants call “Apocrypha”.
The New Testament was written by Catholics. Sts. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter, James, and Jude were all Catholic Bishops. St. Peter was the first Pope.
The Apostles, however, did not codify the Bible. It was not until the Third Century, that St. Jerome sorted out all the books which were claimed to be canonical and put them in the Latin Vulgate. It is this Latin Vulgate, which the Catholic Church declared canonical in the Council of Trent, 12 Centuries later.
Sincerely,
De Maria

Saturday, November 3, 2012

Once the canon of scripture was closed....


Hello Lutero,
You said to Gus,
Once the canon of scripture was closed, Gods revelation to mankind is complete in the 66 books 

of the bible.
There are 73 books in the true Bible. 7 books were removed by Luther.
These extra biblical revelation are therefore invalid if one scrutinizes the “messages” that power behind those apparitions.
There is nothing new being taught in Marian apparitions. The only ones inventing new and false doctrines are the Protestants.
The Catholic church is in error for approving them
This is what Scripture says:

1 Thessalonians 5:18-21King James Version (KJV)18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.  19 Quench not the Spirit.  20 Despise not prophesyings.  21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Yet you advise we quench the Spirit, despise prophesyings and dispense with all which is good.
and is a violation to the closed canon of scripture.
On the contrary, the revelations of God lead one to Scripture.
By adding these extra biblical revelations, we are making God a liar that his Word in the 66 books are in-sufficient.
God has given you a great sign which you ignore. 66 reminds you of anything? The number of the beast is 666. 6 is also the mystical number signifying error.
How about 73? That is the number of the books in the Catholic Bible. What does 7 represent? Seven comes from the Hebrew word “sheva” which means oath or covenant. And three should remind you of the Trinity. God has given you a message which you don’t recognize. The Catholic Bible is the Covenant of the Trinity. 73
Whereas the Protestant Bible has error introduced by the Beast. 66
What is needed is spiritual discernment.
Also we must be aware that scripture teaches that satan is able to transform himself into an “angel of light” (2 Corinthians 11:14).
That is true. But read the context. Many who come in the name of Christ, are actually sent by the Devil:
2 Corinthians 11:13-15
King James Version (KJV)
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
The apparitions of Mary are of God. You can test them by their fruits. Many conversions and much prayer and good work in accordance with God’s will have resulted from those apparitions.
However, there is someone telling us to quench the spirit of God, to disregard prophesying and to contradict the Word of God at every turn. Someone to whom the proof of Scripture has been provided that Sola Scriptura is heretical and contradicts the will of God. That sola fide is a false doctrine. Yet despite all the proof, that person holds on to his heretical beliefs and preaches them to all.
I think I’ll listen to the Catholic Church (Eph 3:10).
Sincerely,
De Maria

Saturday, May 19, 2012

Is the Canon of Scripture closed?



Lighthouse Catholic Media store

I love debating.  I learn so much.  Recently, while researching my "Response to Russell, DID THE CATHOLIC CHURCH GIVE US THE BIBLE?....", I was reading the Council of Trent on the Canon of Scripture.  It dawned on me that the Church only validated the canon in the Vulgate but did not condemn or invalidate any other canon of Scripture in Christendom.

For instance, the Orthodox Canon is different than that which we use. Some Ortthodox have 78 books in their canon.  Some 81.  But, taking the Council of Trent literally, those canons are not invalidated by Trent's decree.

The only thing condemned by the Council of Trent is that anyone should claim that the canon of the Vulgate is invalid.

Read it yourself and let me know what you think:
http://www.ewtn.com/library/councils/trent4.htm

Sincerely,

De Maria

Monday, October 17, 2011

The Canon as Sacred Tradition?



File:McVey wide skyscraper.jpg

Absolutely,  the Canon is a part of Sacred Tradition.  Jesus Christ only established Tradition.  And the Apostles and Disciples were first inspired to preach the New Testament and then to write it.


I've been having a grand old time on Ken's blog.  And so, I'd like to take a break from reviewing Dr. Mizzi's articles.  God willing, I'll get back to those later.  

On Ken's blog, we are discussing Sacred Tradition and Sola Scriptura.  The Protestant stance seems to be that:

1.  Scripture alone is infallible.
2.  Therefore Sacred Tradition can't be infallible.

The Catholic position is this.  

1.  Where does Scripture say that Scripture ALONE is infallible?  We don't see it.
2.  Sacred Tradition was the source of Sacred Scripture, therefore it must have also been infallible before Scripture was written.
3.  Neither Scripture nor Tradition ever state that Tradition or the Church somehow lose the charism of infallibility.

Lets break it down.

Jesus Christ is infallible.  He taught His disciples infallibly and left them to teach as He taught.  

The Catholic presumption is that He left them to teach infallibly.  I assume that Catholics and Protestants agree that the Apostles and disciples passed down the Traditions of Jesus Christ infallibly.

Just in case some Protestant's don't agree, here's what Scripture says on the matter:


2 Peter 1:19-21

King James Version (KJV)


 19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
 20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
 21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.  


So, if the Holy Spirit inspired the men to write infallibly, why not to teach infallibly?  Notice that holy men were not only moved by the Holy Spirit to write, but also to preach.  That verse seems to indicate then, that:

1.  Holy men spoke infallibly (moved by the Holy Ghost).
2.  Holy men wrote infallibly (also moved by the Holy Ghost).

There are more verses which show that Sacred Tradition is infallible at the time of the Apostles.  And none which even hint that the teaching of the Church is ever not infallible.

Let me know what you think.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Friday, September 30, 2011

JUST FOR my fellow CATHOLICS - The Canon


Just for Catholics is a website where Dr. Mizzi seeks to convince Catholics to leave the Catholic Church.  I am reviewing his teachings and comparing them to the Word of God in Tradition, Scripture and Magisterium.  We are currently on this article.  His words in blue.


The Canon: Which Books are Inspired?
Question: You believe that the Bible is the sole authority for doctrine. However the Bible itself does not list which books are inspired and which are not. For the first four centuries many books were debated as whether or not they were inspired or not. How then can you know if a book is not missing? Or one is included that shouldn't be? The Bible would not exist without the Catholic Church's authority to say it is inspired. It seems you have no way of knowing it is inspired if you deny the authority of the Catholic Church who decided which was inspired and which was not. The Bible is a Church book.
Another person wrote: The Catholic Church gave us the Bible. You should therefore follow the interpretation of the Bible given by the Catholic Church.


This is a very good question which Dr. Mizzi never really addresses.  Let me give you a picture of the situation at the time of the Reformation.

At the time of Luther, the Church had maintained a 73 book Bible.  27 books of the New Testament.  46 of the Old Testament.

At that time, Luther, because he had discarded the authority of the Catholic Church, decided to follow the Jewish leadership as they had discarded the books which were not written in Hebrew.  These are what Protestants call the Apocrypha and we call the Deuterocanonicals.  They are seven books of the Old Testament and the Protestants took them out of their Bible.

Answer: The canon is the set of inspired books that make up the Holy Scriptures, the written Word of God. 

Correct.  The Canon was determined by the Catholic Church.

They are called ‘canonical’ because they are the rule, the standard of faith. ‘Canon’ is derived from a Greek word, kanon, meaning a measuring-rod. No matter how valuable and useful, other human writings are not canonical because they are not inspired. Human writings are fallible (can be mistaken) and could not be called the Word of God.

That's close enough.  The Canon does mean the standard.  But the standard or canon is the 73 book Bible.  Not the 66 book Bible of the Protestants.

The canon is not ‘determined’ by the church or church leaders. The church did not give us the Bible. 

Yes.  The Church did give us the Bible.

Rather, God gave the Bible to His people, the church, and not the other way around. 

God gave His people the Bible through His Church.  Just as God teaches His people through His Church and God baptizes His people through His Church.  The Church is God's chosen instrument for evangelizing the world.

Every book written by the inspiration of God is, by definition, canonical. 

We know that now.  But no one knew that before the Catholic Church sifted through the hundreds of New Testament books which many considered inspired Scripture in the second century.  The Shepherd of Hermas, the Gospel of Peter, the epistle of Barnabus, etc. etc.  It is the Catholic Church which sifted through those books and said they were apocryphal.

It is canonical because it is the Word of God, not because of any human decision to regard it as such. 

But it took the Catholic Church to sift through all the books and discard those which were not the Word of God while keeping those which are.

Therefore the canon of the Scripture was completed when the last book of the New Testament was written, even though all Christians did not yet possess all the canonical books collected in one book.

But the point is, that no one knew which books those were.  So, although all the books of Scripture were completed, they were mixed in with other books which also existed during that time.  And regular people couldn't tell the difference.  Even some of the clergy couldn't tell the difference.

The New Testament books were given to the churches as sacred Scripture. During the apostolic age, Christians were aware that new books were being added to the Scriptures, which were of equal authority to the Old Testament scriptures. These books and epistles were copied, circulated among the churches, and passed on to succeeding generations. There was a general consensus among Christians on most books of the New Testament, though there were some doubts about a few. By the fourth century, there was a general agreement on all books of the New Testament, both in the eastern and the western church.

Lol!  Dr. Mizzi has just shot himself in the foot on this issue.  Why would the Church have had to go four centuries, building "consensus and general agreement", if the Scriptures were readily evident.

Obviously, he wants to jump right over the Church and ignore the steps the Church took to ascertain the true Scriptures.  

The Eastern Orthodox Church was the first to formally identify the 27 books of the New Testament in A.D. 367. 

Lol! The Eastern Orthodox Church did not exist for another four centuries:

Until 1054 AD Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism were branches of the same body—the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church....

At that time, the Eastern and Western branches of the Church were still one Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

McVey wide skyscraper.jpgThe canonical books were listed in Athanasius' Easter letter from Alexandria. Later on the Western church accepted the same books at the councils of Hippo (A.D. 393) and Carthage (A.D. 397). Having received from the Jews the books of the Old Testament and from our Christian forefathers the books of the New, today we possess the complete Bible.

Exactly!  Why did he go through the exercise of denying that the Church determined the Scripture and now he is explaining how the Church determined the Scripture.

Catholic apologists often argue about the canon, either to discredit Sola Scriptura (the Bible is the sole, infallible rule of faith), or to elevate the authority of the magisterium and tradition. They employ three basic arguments, all of which are fallacious.

How can he say that when he just proved them true?  It is the Magisterium of the Church which met at the councils he produced above and they began the Tradition of the New Testament Scripture at that time.  That Biblical Tradition has continued since then.

1. The canon cannot be ascertained from Scripture alone
No, we cannot, but we don’t have to either. The Bible is not a doctrine to be determined from the Bible itself. Rather, Scripture was given by God to His people as the infallible rule of faith, and as such it has been recognized and handled to succeeding generations. 

Yep.  It was recognized by the Church and handed on by the Church.

There is no inspired table of contents in the Bible, but there is something even better. Our confidence that we possess all the correct books of the Bible rests in the goodness and omnipotence of our God who both gave and preserved His Word for His children. 

I wonder if that is why Luther called the Epistle of St. James an epistle of straw?

In His wise providence, God has so directed His people (fallible and imperfect as they are) to recognize for certain His Holy Word. The Good Shepherd had promised that His sheep would hear His voice, and that they will not be mislead by the voice of a stranger - and that is exactly what happened, and what continues to happen to this day. “My sheep hear my voice!”

It is a very pretty fairy tale, but he has already admitted that it took centuries for the Church to study the situation and gain agreement as to which books are inspired canon.

2 The canon cannot be known apart from church tradition.
In a sense, this is true. Our forefathers cherished and preserved the sacred writings, and the Lord directed the church to a general consensus on all the books. We have received from their hands the 27 books of the New Testament. We may call this ‘tradition’ - a heritage that is passed on from one generation to the next.

No argument from me.

This ‘tradition’ has nothing to do with the concept of ‘Sacred Tradition' of the Roman Catholic Church. 

Yes, it does.  Just as the Church determined which were the inspired books, the Church determines which is authentic Tradition.

The ‘table of contents’ was not passed orally from one bishop to the other, until somebody decided to publish it! Rather, the books that were already regarded as Scripture by the churches were included in the list of canonical books- and passed on to us.

That's not true.  Dr. Mizzi admitted as much above.

3.The canon cannot be known with certainty apart from the infallible magisterium.
We are told that unless we rely on the decision of the infallible Church magisterium, we have no sure basis for knowing the extent of the canon. How can we be sure that the early Christians did not exclude an inspired book, or included a book that is not inspired?

Good question.

It would be nice to have an infallible magisterium to declare infallibly the list of canonical books. Unfortunately, there are two big problems with this fantasy. First, historically it did not happen that way. 

It is precisely how it happened historically as he himself proved when he mentioned the councils above.

Secondly, how can we know that the magisterium is infallible to start with?

Have faith in the Word of God which tells you that the Church is the Pillar of Truth (1 Tim 3:15).

From the Roman Catholic standpoint, it was not until the sixteenth century at the Council of Trent, that a general council declared ‘infallibly’ the books of the Bible. 

That's not true.  The Church at that time closed the canon.  But it was already infallible before the Church did so.  Again, Dr. Mizzi said so himself.  God chose the canon before the Church determined it from amongst the many counterfeits.

(The councils of Hippo and Carthage were local synods, and could not be considered infallible, since the list of Old Testament books was different from that given by Trent. Indeed, if Trent is correct, then Hippo and Carthage were not merely fallible, but actually mistaken). 

The list of books looks the same to me.  I don't know which list he is talking about.

Yet for fifteen hundred years and more, Christians had built their life and hope on the teaching of those books, being fully confident that they are the Word of God, even though there was no declaration by an infallible magisterium. Today, Evangelicals continue to walk in the steps of their forefathers, having full assurance of the authenticity of the books of the Bible, apart from any ‘infallible’ declaration by a group of bishops.

Even today, some evangelicals deny the inspiration of certain texts, like Mark 16:16.  The Catholic Church does not.

Similarly, the Jewish people recognized a corpus of books that they called 'sacred Scriptures' (which we now call the Old Testament). The Lord Jesus and His apostles reasoned with the Jews from the Scriptures, implying of course that there was a canon that was generally recognized by God's people. Yet, it is clear that the same Jews that recognized the canonical books were not themselves 'infallible.' Jesus does not attribute infallibility to the leaders whose forefathers had first acknowledged the books of the sacred Scriptures. As a matter of fact, they were mistaken on many issues of doctrine and morals, to the extent that they crucified the Messiah prophesied in the same Writings.

That is true.  God sent Moses to establish the Jewish Religion.  God sent His Son to establish the Christian religion.  Therefore many doctrines of the Jews were mistaken.  But not the Doctrines of Jesus Christ.

We can be confident that God has providentially worked in history so that we now possess in our hands the inspired writings. Moreover, we would be wise to follow Jesus and His apostles not to attribute infallibility to the church He used to that end.

We agree.  We can be so confident because God, working through His infallible instrument, the Catholic Church, has provided us not only inspired Scripture but an infallible interpreter.

Secondly, the need for an infallible magisterium creates an additional logical problem. If we cannot know for certain the canon of Scripture apart from an infallible authority, how can we know for certain that the Roman claim to infallibility is certainly true? To say that the magisterium teaches that the magisterium is infallible is begging the question. 

Scripture says it also and Tradition also.

Nor is it possible to argue from the Bible that the magisterium is infallible, for that presupposes that the canon of the Bible is known for certain (apart from the infallible declaration by the magisterium).

Circular arguments are not always false.  Remember the old song.  Jesus loves me, the Bible told me so.  Well, the Church is infallible, the Bible tells me so.

Conclusion
We thank God for giving us His Word in written form. Rather than waste our time arguing on the canon of the New Testament, about which Catholics and Protestants agree, we should move on to study these sacred books to learn God's will and to correct false doctrines that have crept into the churches.

Many false doctrines have crept into Protestant Churches.  Not into the doctrines of the True Church of Christ, the Catholic Church.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Thursday, September 15, 2011

Beggars All: Reformation And Apologetics: The Canon as Infallible Sacred Tradition

McVey wide skyscraper.jpg


Absolutely, the Canon is a part of Sacred Tradition. Jesus Christ only established Tradition. And the Apostles and Disciples were first inspired to preach the New Testament and then to write it.


I've been having a grand old time on Ken's blog. And so, I'd like to take a break from reviewing Dr. Mizzi's articles. God willing, I'll get back to those later.

On Ken's blog, we are discussing Sacred Tradition and Sola Scriptura. The Protestant stance seems to be that:

1. Scripture alone is infallible.
2. Therefore Sacred Tradition can't be infallible.

The Catholic position is this.