Jesus is there

Bob said:
You state that “Transubstantiation means that the bread and wine are no longer there. Only the appearance. ” How do you know there is more to something than just the appearance?

Faith. 

If there is something more than the appearance to the bread and wine as being Christ then we should be able to see indications of this. 

Says who?

What would be the evidence that “Jesus is there present Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity” in the bread and wine?

I rely upon the Teaching of Christ:
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

When Jesus performed miracles there was always some kind of evidence for them. The same would apply here.

The evidence which exists, you reject. 

1st. Christ said that He would leave the bread that is His flesh and that the wine is His blood. I believe that. You don’t.

2nd. Jesus established a Church which has always taught that Jesus did exactly as He said He would do. I believe that. You don’t.

3rd. This is exactly the same evidence which we have for the Resurrection. It is mentioned in Scripture and the Church has always taught that Jesus did what He said He would do. 

But although the evidence is the same kind in both, you reject one but accept the other leaning upon your own understanding and rejecting the witness of the Church.

In regards to the traditions that Paul mentions, he knew nothing of the Marian dogmas,

Yes, he did. St. Paul was guided powerfully by the Holy Spirit and he would have had the full Catholic insight to the relationship of the Mother of God to the Church and her role in salvation.

purgatory or a celibate leadership.

He explained Purgatory in detail in 1 Cor 3:1-15. Celibate leadership is established in the Western rite of the Catholic Church BECAUSE of the teaching of St. Paul in Romans 7:32.

These came centuries later in the RCC. 

No, they didn’t. You have simply accepted the anti-Catholic lies, which is really a form of man made tradition. 

They are not mentioned in the NT at all.

As I mentioned to you before. You read Scripture differently than does a Catholic. We don’t discover the meaning of Scripture when we read it. We have a deep understanding of it by the time we begin to study it because we have already been steeped in the Word of God by living the Traditions of Jesus Christ.

And when we see them in Scripture, we recognize them.

Mary the Mother of God:
Luke 1:43
And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

Mary crowned Queen of Heaven:
Revelation 12:1
King James Version (KJV)
12 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Mary the Mother of all Believers:
Revelation 12:17
King James Version (KJV)
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

There is no verse in Scripture which says anything about Mary committing a sin. And Luke 1:28 says that she is “ever full of grace” (i.e. kecharitomene), which is the basis for the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.

Whereas, I repeat, every Protestant doctrine which contradicts Catholic doctrine also contradicts the Bible.

Please provide the evidence for Sola Scriptura or Sola Fide from Scripture.

What is the official Protestant definition of Sola Scriptura? No one seems to know.

Bob said:Celibacy was a later development in the RCC.

Correct. 1 Cor 7:32 is the basis for that change.

Paul lays out in 1 Tim 3 the qualifications for church leadership and part of it was to be a man who was married with children.

And yet St. Paul was not a man who was married with children. Did he thereby disqualify himself?

And what about our model and example? Jesus Christ Himself. Was He inadequate for the job because He was not married with children.

You see how Protestants cut off their nose to spite their face? If unmarried men are not qualified to run the Church, they disqualify several of the cornerstones of our Faith. Jesus, John the Evangelist, St. Paul. 

Revelation 14:3-5
King James Version (KJV)
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Bob said,

 You asked, What is the definition for Sola Scriptura?

That's right.  So, you tell me, from Scripture.

Sola Fide= we are saved alone by faith alone in Christ alone. Gal 2:16 and Eph 2:8-9

Show me that statement in Scripture. Because Scripture says:
James 2:24
King James Version (KJV)
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Therefore that statement contradicts the Word of God.

Galatians 2:16
King James Version (KJV)
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

This does not say “faith IN Christ”. It says “faith OF Christ”. The faith of Christ is the Christianity. The rituals and doctrines which He established to be passed down by His Church.

Therefore, St. Paul is contrasting the Jewish faith and the Christian faith. We are not justified nor was anyone every justified by the Jewish faith. That is why, in another place, he says:
Hebrews 11:40
King James Version (KJV)
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

In other words, without us, they would not be justified.

Ephesians 2:8-9
King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

In order to understand this one fully, we need one more verse:
Ephesians 2:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith;
Faith is a grace.
Romans 4:16
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace;….

and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
God gives us this grace. It is the first grace which God gives us because without faith we can’t please Him. And faith is a very special type of grace. It is a grace which must be exercised. Faith ALONE is dead (James 2:17).

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Therefore we can’t boast that we made ourselves faithful nor that we saved ourselves.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Now, we are ALL created in Christ when we are conceived. Christ has created all that is in creation:
John 1:3
King James Version (KJV)
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

and we were all made to do good. We were all made to keep the Commandments.
Romans 2:14-16
King James Version (KJV)
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

God gave this command from before time began. We were made for God. We were made to be righteous. This is why we are justified by DOING the faith OF Christ.

Justification

Here's my understanding of the 

Catholic Teaching of Justification.

Justification in the Old Testament sense is, as the word itself tells us, becoming just or righteous in the eyes of God.  

We can see an example of this when Moses says:

Deuteronomy 6:24 And the Lord commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the Lord our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day. 25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the Lord our God, as he hath commanded us.

We still keep this mandate.  The Catholic Church teaches:

2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them; the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."

Justification in the New Testament sense is the washing of our sins by the washing of regeneration which is the work of God.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;  

 The Catholic Church says:

1215 This sacrament is also called "the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit," for it signifies and actually brings about the birth of water and the Spirit without which no one "can enter the kingdom of God."

Justification in the Old Testament sense is justification by faith and works.  

Justification in the New Testament sense is the justification by faith apart from works.  which occurs in the Sacraments.

A better Covenant with better promises

Scripture says:

Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 

Just as the New Testament is a better Covenant than the Old, the justification effected by the Sacraments of God effect a more perfect justification than that which is accomplished by faith and works.  Justification by faith and works can not bring about perfection nor salvation.  Sacramental justification brought about by the Holy Spirit does bring about perfect cleansing of the soul and therefore salvation.

The Council of Trent, Session VI says:

CHAPTER IV

A BRIEF DESCRIPTION OF THE JUSTIFICATION OF THE SINNER AND ITS MODE IN THE STATE OF GRACE

In which words is given a brief description of the justification of the sinner, as being a translation from that state in which man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace and of the adoption of the sons of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Savior.

This translation however cannot, since promulgation of the Gospel, be effected except through the laver of regeneration or its desire, as it is written:

Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.[18]

Perhaps you have noticed already that the Jews, with the exception of Enoch, Elijah and  Moses, did not enter heaven.  They awaited the coming of Christ and His Crucifixion before they were released from the limbo where they were awaiting the redemption of their sins.  Scripture says:

Hebrews 9:15
King James Version (KJV)
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

And again:

Hebrews 11:37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;  38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.  39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:  40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Do you know why they couldn't be made perfect without us?  Because it is in the Crucifixion that Jesus released the sanctifying grace which effects the washing of regeneration which the Holy Spirit applies to our souls in the Sacraments.  They received this washing of sanctifying grace by the Holy Spirit before they entered into heaven.  They couldn't be made perfect without it.

Therefore, the Justification which is effected by God in the New Testament is more perfect than that which the Jews received in the Old Testament.  St. Paul illustrates the difference graphically in the book of Hebrews:

Hebrews 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:)   

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,  24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

But, although justification effected by the Sacraments in the New Testament is more perfect than that effected by faith and works, justification by faith and works is the prerequisite for all justification.  

Justification by faith and works and justification by faith apart from works are seamlessly combined in the Catholic Sacramental System.

First, justification by faith and works is required for salvation.  

Scripture says:

Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.  13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.  14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.  15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

The Catechism says:

682 When he comes at the end of time to judge the living and the dead, the glorious Christ will reveal the secret disposition of hearts and will render to each man according to his works, and according to his acceptance or refusal of grace.

Second, justification by faith and works is the preparation of man for the reception of Sacramental justification: 

An adult who converts to the faith of Jesus Christ, must justify himself in preparation for the Sacraments by performing works worthy of penance. This is why I say that the Sacraments are pre-Judgement events.  Before a person may receive a Sacrament, he must be in a state of grace.  In order to be in a state of grace, he must repent of his sins and perform good works by exercising faith in God.

The Catechism says:

2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, "since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:" 

Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing.

Having received the Sacraments, the adult is then sent out again to continue doing the works which God prepared for him from the beginning of time (Ephesians 2:10) and continue to exercise and enlarge his faith so that he becomes more open and properly disposed to receive more Sanctifying grace which is imparted by the Sacraments.  Just as we exercise our muscles, this strengthens his faith making him more open to receive the sanctifying grace of the Holy Spirit which transforms him according to his faith.  

2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.  5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;  6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;  7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.  8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.  9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.  10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:   

I believe that in the phrase, "precious promises", St. Peter is referring to the seven promises we call the Seven Sacraments.  Seven promises of the grace filled outpouring of the Holy Spirit into our souls.

And so, the Council of Trent Session VI says:

CHAPTER X THE INCREASE OF THE JUSTIFICATION RECEIVED
Having, therefore, been thus justified and made the friends and domestics of God,[49] advancing from virtue to virtue,[50] they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day,[51] that is, mortifying the members[52] of their flesh, and presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification,[53] they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith cooperating with good works, increase in that justice received through the grace of Christ and are further justified, as it is written: 

He that is just, let him be justified still;[54] and, Be not afraid to be justified even to death;[55] and again, Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?[56]

This increase of justice holy Church asks for when she prays:"Give unto us, O Lord, an increase of faith, hope and charity."[57]

Outside the Church there is no salvation

The more perfect Sacramental justification does not exist outside the Church.  Without the Sacraments, a person must await the Judgement in order to be judged according to their works.  In other words, in order to be judged according to their faith and works.

However, the receiving the Sacraments does not guarantee salvation:

The Catholic Church says:

837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but 'in body' not 'in heart.'"321

In other words, although the Sacraments bring about salvation, they also bring about judgement. They are pre-judgement events with all that entails.  Remember what Jesus said?

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

So, if an adult receives Baptism without believing, he is condemning himself.  God is not fooled:

1 Corinthians 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.  29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.  

Sincerely,

De Maria

A refutation of Sola Scriptura

Bob says:
If the Real Presence is true it leads to the conclusion that Jesus has another nature i.e. bread and wine. 

That is a misunderstanding of the Catholic Doctrine. Transubstantiation means that the bread and wine are no longer there. Only the appearance. Jesus is there present Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. 

I repeat, NO BREAD AND WINE. The bread and wine are gone. 

The other problem is that the bread and wine have no characteristics of deity.

No one claims that bread and wine are deities. It is a straw man argument which you are making up.

Oh, you asked me a question which I had no opportunity to answer. You also asked:

You brought up this passage as a refutation of Sola Scriptura–”Let’s compare. You preach the Bible alone, which is the doctrine of “Sola Scriptura”. What does Scripture truly say?

2 Thessalonians 2:15King James Version (KJV)15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.”

Let me ask you: What traditions is Paul referring to here? 

All the Traditions. Including the ones that Protestants refuse to believe.

Surely he is not referring to

Yes, he is.

the Marian dogmas, 

The Queenship of Mary-Rev 12:1

a celibate leaderships

1 Cor 7:32-33

or purgatory

1 Cor 3:15

because these things were unknown in the NT and for centuries. 

They were taught by the Apostles. The reason you don’t recognize them in the NT is because you discarded many of the Traditions of Jesus Christ.

So what “traditions” is Paul referring to?

All of them. Including the ones that Protestants disregarded and cast aside.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Jesus said, “I am the sheep gate"

Fello said:

….Realize that if Jesus’ words, “this is my body” don’t mean (to borrow from Luther) that this is His body, we are all in big trouble. If His words, “my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink,” mean that His flesh and blood are not true food and drink, then the Bible is dang hard to understand, saying the exact opposite of what it seems to mean….

De Maria responds:

Jesus also says that He is the sheep gate. What are we to say?

Here’s what I say. There is no Tradition that Jesus is literally the sheep gate. When Jesus said, “I am the sheep gate.” You didn’t see the disciples grumbling, “this is a hard saying.” They understood that He was speaking metaphorically. And that is the Tradition that has been passed down through the centuries.

Whereas, when Jesus said, “I am the bread of life, my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.” The disciples all left. Only the Apostles remained. And even they were dumbfounded. But although they could not understand it, they accepted it because, as St. Peter said, “To whom would we run, we have come to BELIEVE that you are the Messiah of God.” And that is the Tradition that has been passed down. Believe it! It doesn’t say, “understand it.” The Tradition says “Believe it!”

Therefore, an understanding of the Traditions of Jesus Christ is absolutely necessary for a correct interpretation of Scripture.

Can I get an, “Amen!”

Three Year Cycle Bible readings

Question: 

How well do you think a person would retain knowledge of the NT by listening to it over the course of 3 years?

Very well indeed.

What about the other 30% that is not heard?

Catholics listen to the entire Bible in a 3 year cycle.

Having said that, there are some parts of Scripture which seem to be emphasized over others.

There is information in the OT which is not essential for one’s salvation. Its stuff like this which was anulled by Christ on the Cross:

Leviticus 14:13
And he shall slay the lamb in the place where he shall kill the sin offering and the burnt offering, in the holy place: for as the sin offering is the priest’s, so is the trespass offering: it is most holy:

Because:

Ephesians 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Therefore, the ordinances about sacrifices and washings are not stressed to Catholics.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Mary is without sin

De Maria says:

January 11, 2013 at 8:25 am

Bob says:
I have heard RC’s claim that Mary is without sin, kept from sin based on Luke 1:28. No apostle taught this in their writings.

Hm? Bob, we see the teaching in Luke 1:28. Unless you are insinuating that the Apostles were not aware of that verse, you are contradicting yourself.

In Greek, that verse describes the Virgin as “kecharitomene” which means “ever full of grace”. Therefore, she never sinned.

So how could this be a Apostolic Tradition?

Catholics approach the Word of God in a manner fundamentally different to the manner used by Protestants. As Catholics, we accept the Teaching of the Church concerning the Word of God (Eph 3:10). We also recognize that the Word of God is contained in Tradition and Scripture (2 Thess 2:15).

The Tradition that the Virgin Mary is without sin is explicitly taught by our Catholic teachers (Heb 13:7). And it is implied in the Gospel of St. Luke (1:28). That doctrine is nowhere contradicted in Scripture. Therefore we accept it as truth.

Sincerely,

De Maria

IF WE ARE NOT JUSTIFIED IN BAPTISM...THEN CHRIST DIED IN VAIN.

Re: If we are not justified in Baptism...Then Christ died in vain.

Appalled:
Its not just a few evangelicals who believe what I do. And if you engage evangelicals with the generalizations that you have expressed on this thread, you will only confirm to them that, as a Catholic, you have no idea what you are talking about, and they will have no reason to listen to anything you have to say. When you comment on evangelical theology but really have no idea what evangelicals believe, you only make yourself look ignorant.

You're making a mountain out of a mole hill.

1. I've engaged Evangelicals and Protestants of every variety for about two decades now.
2. Normally, my generalized comments are right on the money.
3. When they aren't, they simply correct me.
4. And then I disprove the errors in their specific and individual theology.

A perfect example is the discussion we've been having. Now that you've made your personal ideas clear, we have addressed them.

On the other hand, you began this discussion pretending that your views were the main line Evangelical view. Whether that is true or not, is besides the point. The fact remains that a significant number of Protestants and Evangelicals hold the position which you decry and which we initially began to confront.

I don't mean this to sound harsh or insulting to you.

That's ok. It is difficult to be 100% nonadversarial in an apologetical discussion where we each represent opposing views.

However, when you say, "It may not be completely universal. But enough Evangelicals believe it that we may safely generalize that they all do," you need to realize how wrong you are. This is not a case of a few evangelicals dissenting from the overwhelming majority view. This is more the case of an even split. I don't think you understand this, and until you do its not really possible to have a constructive debate with you.

I thought we were having a wonderful debate. I also addressed your current views. If you don't believe that I did, then please reveal that which you think I didn't address.

In either case, in the classic Evangelical position or in the one you claim now holds equal hold, there are elements which contradict Scripture and Catholic Teaching.

Sincerely,

De Maria