The Creeds are proofs against Sola Scriptura

The Creeds are concise expressions of all that Christians believe.  There are three Creeds which are called “ecumenical” because they express that which all Christians should believe and even the Reformed Christians accept these Creeds.

These three Creeds are the Apostles’ Creed, the Nicene Creed and the Athanasian Creed.  All three of these date to a time before the Bible was canonized.  Below, I’ve printed them out in their entirety, from a Protestant source.

The Apostles’ Creed

I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth.

And in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary; suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead; He ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Ghost; the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. Amen.

The Nicene Creed

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again with glory to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified; who spake by the Prophets. And I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.I acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

The Athanasian Creed

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

And the catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is all one: the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three Eternals, but one Eternal. As there are not three Uncreated nor three Incomprehensibles, but one Uncreated and one Incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Ghost almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords, but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say, There be three Gods, or three Lords.

The Father is made of none: neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son: neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before or after other; none is greater or less than another; But the whole three Persons are coeternal together, and coequal: so that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshiped. He, therefore, that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe faithfully the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is, that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God of the Substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man of the substance of His mother, born in the world; Perfect God and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood; Who, although He be God and Man, yet He is not two, but one Christ: One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking the manhood into God; One altogether; not by confusion of Substance, but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead; He ascended into heaven; He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty; from whence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give an account of their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire.

This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.

Did you notice something glaringly absent?

These Creeds contain all the things which a Christian must believe.    The first two, the Apostles’ Creed and the Nicene, say, “I believe in the catholic Church”.  And the Athanasian says, “it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith”.   And then goes on to explain that which is the Catholic faith.

Not one of them says, “I believe that Scripture alone is the sole rule of faith”.

So, none of the Creeds say that we need to believe that Scripture alone is the sole rule of faith.  Add to that the fact that Scripture Itself says that the Church is the Pillar of Truth (1 Tim 3:15).  And that we should hold Tradition and Scripture (2 Thess 2:15).  And you’ve got a devastating argument against Sola Scriptura.

How a man learns his faith

De Maria October 21, 2012 at 9:49 PM

Anil,

Your explanation of how a man learns his faith makes a great deal of sense. Most of us are not, to my knowledge, blessed in the womb as St. John was when Mary visited her cousin Elizabeth. We learn our faith as we see it practiced and explained by those we love and in whom we have faith. Therefore, those people who claim that our faith must be gleaned by studying the Bible alone, are wrong. And if that is the meaning of the doctrine of Scripture alone, then it is false on that basis as well.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Christian initiation began in the Gospels when Jesus Christ began to teach His doctrines to the Apostles.

De Maria October 24, 2012 at 11:54 PM

Hi again alan almeida,

No it is not a mistake.

The problem, Alan, is that you have not divulged your definition of the term “Christian initiation”. I asked you above. But that is thequestion you ignored.

Once you reveal that, we can come to an understanding as to why you are coming to all these erroneous conclusions.

Because God’s plan of salvation came to the Jews first John 4:22,

True. But it is besides the point. Christian initiation began in the Gospels when Jesus Christ began to teach His doctrines to the Apostles. They were the first Christians. He initiated them into His faith.

Matthew 10:5-7 and than the pattern of the plan of Salvation moved towards the Gentiles, subsequently.

True. But that has nothing to do with the fact that Christ Himself initiated the Jews and a few Gentiles into Christianity.

Christian Initiation starts only in the Book of Acts,

NO. It starts in the Gospels. And Christ brings the Apostles to a sufficient knowledge of His faith that He can command them to pass His doctrines to the entire world:
Matthew 28:19-20
King James Version (KJV)
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

the Holy Spirit being manifested to empower the Church to proclaim and spread the Gospel far and wide.

To culminate not to initiate the disciple into the Body of Christ.

Christian initiation never began in the period covering the four Gospels simply because the four Gospels cover the jewish period John 4:22, Matthew 10:5-7 and not the Christian period.

The Christian era begins with Christ. In fact, it can be said that Christian initiation begins with the herald. St. John the Baptist.

Luke 3:16
John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

And also the four gospels cover a transitional period. Nothing was defintely settled as yet as Christ was not yet risen and glorified. The Comforter could come only after Christ ascension. If Catholic teaching is still stuck in the Gospels, its because it is not a Christian Church. its teachings are identical to that of Judaism.

If your group has set the Gospels aside, it is your group which is not Christian. The Gospels contain the foundational knowledge of the Christian faith.

No He went to John’s Baptism even when John restrained Him.

John 3:5 depicts Jesus explaining the Baptism which He instituted.

John 3:1-10
King James Version (KJV)
1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: 2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

The Catholic Church wrongly interprets John 3:5 means baptism is the only ordinance required to enter the Kingdom of God.

I’ve never seen that teaching in Catholic literature. If you claim it is true, show it to me from official Catholic sources. Otherwise it simply amounts to you arguing against something you made up yourself.

That would contradict other scriptures that Jesus and the Apostles taught on Repentance from sin, Believing on Jesus, and Receiving the Holy Spirit – the same four-fold pattern I have mentioned that was articulated throughout the New Testament. Because Jesus when he said “Ye must be born again..” He is saying.. that what happens to begin your spirtual life has some kind of parallel with what happens when you began your physical life.

That is true. And the sign of that spiritual birth is the water.

In John 3:5 Jesus is having a conversation with Nicodemus, who was a Pharisee. Jesus spoke to Nicodemus in accordance to the Pharisee’s teaching- to be born of water meant to be born physically. 
That is a secular teaching as well. It is called the “breaking of the water” when a child is born.

This is proved by Nicodemus remark who thought to be born again meant a physical birth “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?

That is true. Nicodemus was confused.

In verse 5, Jesus proceeds to say, “Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, you cannot enter the kingdom of God.”

Again true. This is a typical double entendre of Jesus Christ.

1. The first birth is by water.
2. The second birth is by water and spirit. Water signifying the birth by the Spirit.

Nicodemus, who was a Pharisee, believed like the other Jews that because he was born a Jew and kept God’s ordinances that he should automatically enter into the kingdom of God. However, Jesus explains this is not enough. In verse 6, Jesus Himself interprets the water as flesh (a physical birth) “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”

You have misunderstood. The verse prior has associated water with birth. Not with birth of the flesh only. Jesus, in verse 6, simply says that one must also be born of the spirit, that is “justified” by God in order to be received into eternal life.

Jesus says of being born of water is to be born of the flesh.

No, He doesn’t. You are reading that into the Scripture. Jesus uses water to signify birth and spirit. The child emerges from water in physical birth. The spirit is “living water” and the soul emerges from the living water in spiritual birth. That living water is signified by the physical water. That is why the Apostles insisted on “water” Baptism. Because that is what Jesus taught in the Gospel.

Jesus explains the difference, telling Nicodemus you have already had a physical birth, you are in need of a another birth “Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ Literally from the Spirit above to enter the kingdom.

Absolutely. But Jesus said by “water and spirit”. And in the next Chapter, Jesus and the Apostles went to Baptize where water was abundant:
John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. 23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.

You must be born again “that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” The new birth from above is a second birth which gives us eternal life.

That is true. That new birth occurs in the Sacrament of Baptism.

V.5 The new birth is invisible, he likens it to the wind.

True.

It is not from the water beneath (the flesh)

The water signifies birth and spirit. It does not signify flesh.

but of the Spirit (literally, in the Greek, from above).

It is a double entendre. It means “again” and it means “from above” as well.

Jesus is saying, you have been born of water. Now you will born of the Spirit when you submit to the water of Baptism.

He is contrasting the natural (flesh) to the spiritual (Spirit).

He is contrasting the flesh to spiritualized flesh. Christ did not teach Gnosticism. There is such a thing as a spiritual body:
1 Corinthians 15:44
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

There is always a distinction between water and Spirit baptism.

Not in the Baptism of Jesus Christ. In the Baptism of Jesus Christ there is a connection between the two. The Baptism of water signifies the Baptism of the Spirit which the soul undergoes when he arises from the water.

Scripture tells us that John came baptizing in water but that, “There is one who will come after me. . . He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit” (Mark. 1:7-8; Matthew 3:11; John 1:33).

Absolutely. Baptism means to wash. One can not wash without water.

The flesh and the spirit are two different properties, two different things.

That is true. But what is your point? You have drifted from claiming that Gospels did not initiate anyone into Christianity all the while using verses which point to Chrisitianity in the Gospels. Note that YOU posted that St. John the Baptist prophesied that Christ would baptize with the Holy Spirit. Note that YOU brought up John 3:5, wherein Jesus was teaching a Jew, Nicodemus, about His Baptism.

That is initiation into the Christian faith.

So there are two births- one of the flesh and the other of the spirit that comes from God. John 3:6-7“That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. “Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

Absolutely! And one is born of the Spirit when one is Baptized in the Sacrament of enlightenment. The washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit. The washing of water and the Word. Amen!

You see.. what I have discovered is that streams of church life have just got hold of a portion of the truth and NOT the whole truth.

The Catholic Church has the entire Truth. That is why Scripture says of the Church:
Ephesians 3:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

The Catholic Church is that Church which teaches the Wisdom of God. If your church is not, that is a sign it is not of God.

And that portion breeds heresies. For example the Liberal stream of Church life emphasises on REPENTANCE, The Catholic sacramental stream of Church life emphasises on BAPTISM, The Evangelical stream stresses on FAITH, and the PENTECOSTAL stream emphasies on baptism twice of the HOLY SPIRIT. So if we stress say, only on, BAPTISM or REPENTANCE that saves, at the expense of cutting out the other two, becomes a text for pretext that eventually breeds heresies. All that four-fold pattern (REPENT, BELIEVE, BAPTIZE and RECEIVE the Holy Spirit) i have mentioned is necessary and it is the basis of the complete Christian Initiation as articulated. Note BELIEVE by Faith in the Lord Jesus is the most important of all the other three, but it (FAITH) also rests behind the other said Three.

You are confused and confusing yourself. The four fold pattern you claim to have discovered has been known for centuries. And you stress that pattern to your own demise. Because there is much, much more to the faith of Jesus Christ than that which you teach. You have bred your own heresy by “stressing” your “personal stream” of understanding.

Here is another tenet of the Christian faith:
Hebrews 13:7
King James Version (KJV)
7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

So, tell me, who taught you the faith which you follow? Sounds to me as though you think you discovered the Christian faith 2000 years after Jesus appeared in the flesh.

How about this tenet which no Protestant can stomach? Do you accept it?

Hebrews 13:17
King James Version (KJV)
17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

So tell me, to which ruler of the Church do you submit and obey and admit that he must account for your soul? Oh, I see, you follow no man. Yet Scripture is clear that you must follow the men who taught you the faith and who follow Christ. And submit to them as they give account for your soul.

Jesus the Son of God was empowered by the Holy Spirit after he came out ouf the water of John’s Baptism.

The Holy Spirit appeared as a sign for the people to see that He is the Son of God. It was for their benefit. Christ is God from all eternity. Christ was empowered by the Father.

No one denies baptism because simply its an ordinance commanded by the Lord.

You haven’t talked to many Protestants. You probably have a small circle of like minded people with whom you discuss religion. But there are thousands if not millions of Protestants who deny the necessity of Baptism.

The only pertinent thing to note about baptism in the New Testament that it is:

1. A Believers only baptism in Christ Jesus only.

They who don’t understand the Scripture come to that conclusion based upon one verse. Mark 16:16. But it is a false conclusion.
a. Baptism is the circumcision without hands:
Colossians 2:11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

b. Jesus said:
Matthew 19:14
But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

c. Jesus pours His grace unto children by the faith of the parents:
Matthew 15:28
Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

2. Christian Baptism began from the Book of ACTS; not to be confused with John’s Baptism.

On the contrary, Christian Baptism was introduced by Jesus Christ in the Gospel of St. John chapter 3 and commanded in the Gospel of St. Mark verse 16:16 and in the Gospel of St. Matthew 28:19-20.

3. It is so called Christian baptism because one identifies himslef as a disciple of Christ ALONE by indentifying with his death/burial and resurrection.

a. I have yet to see the words “Christ ALONE” in the Scriptures.
b. Scripture says:
1 Corinthians 11:1
Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

and:
Hebrews 13:7
King James Version (KJV)
7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

4. Its an outward testimony of what God has done to our regenerate our inner-self by grace through faith in the finished redemption work of Christ on the Cross HIM being a substituinary atonement for us.

Sacramental Baptism is an outward sign which causes an inner reality. Jesus Christ has associated the Baptism of water with the washing of the Holy Spirit.

5. It is also outward testimony that we de-link from the dark past and begin a new clean life in Christ living in us through his in-dwelling Spirit.

That is true. But it is also a culmination of a process of learning to show oneself approved (2 Timothy 2:15) and of seeking God in faith (Hebrews 11:6).

I see you simply don’t understand and it is simply not my opionion.

It is simply your opinion. It is not the teaching of Christ nor of the Church. Nor even of Scripture.

One can see clearly that the Epistles and the Book of Revelation where meant for those who already became followers of Jesus Christ.

They were addressed to believers, true. But why? Why did St. Paul and the Apostles edify the Church? Here is the answer in a nutshell:
2 Timothy 2:2
King James Version (KJV)
2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

Apparently you have forgotten the Great Commission of Jesus Christ:
Matthew 28:19-20
King James Version (KJV)
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

But, if you are committed to this strangest of ideas, please show me a verse in the Epistles or in the book of Revelations or in the Gospels, which should not be taught to non-Christians and explain why. Perhaps you can show the Scripture which says, “Thou shalt not teach these things to non-Christians”.

In the Epistles were writings the Apostles of Jesus wrote to those early Christian churches dealing with warning of false teachings and ravening wolves in sheep clothng inflirtating thir ranks, spreading a false gospel. Offcourse the contents of other epistles were exhortations on how a Christian must have to endure suffering, persecution and living the Christian life – these things cannot be taught to persons who were not already Christians.

Why? The only reason I can see is your own opinion. There is nothing in the Scriptures which forbids teaching any of the Epistles to non-Christians.

They had to become Christians

Where is it written?

and that is only documented in the book of Acts how Jesus Apostles who lead potential non-Christians to become Christians. This is not my imaginations as you claim. Its proveb from contextual reading of New Testament scripture itself.

You have simply adopted your own personal interpretation of the Scriptures. But Scripture is clear:
2 Peter 1:19-21
King James Version (KJV)
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

God didn’t inspire the Apostles so that you could re-interpret their teachings in your own personal way. God established a Church, the Pillar of Truth (1 Tim 3;15) to teach His wisdom even in the Heavens (Eph 3:10). And He also warned that those who did not obey the Church, would be treated as the heathen (Matt 18:17).

God Bless you abundantly.

And you also,

Sincerely,

De Maria

This sacrament is also called “the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit,”

De Maria October 22, 2012 at 7:33 PM

Hi alan almeida,

Hello Bill912, Here goes…
As a base example, Let’s take the teaching of the CCC #1215

1215 This sacrament is also called “the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit,” for it signifies and actually brings about the birth of water and the Spirit without which no one “can enter the kingdom of God.”

that relies on Titus 3:5 and John 3:5 and lets us see why these verses have been taken out of context.

Ok.

First and foremost Titus is an epistle letter, and unlike other epistles, were written to people who were already Christians (believers).

All the Epistles were written to individual Christians or Church communities. True.

And so we cannot lead un-believers into Christian initiation thru any of the the Epsitles.

That doesn’t follow.
1st. CCC1215 simply describes Baptism. It doesn’t say that one must study the Epistle of Titus in order to become Christian.
2nd. Titus 3:5 is a description of the physical and spiritual actions which take place in Baptism. The water washes our skin as the Spirit washes the sins off our soul. It does not address Christian initiation. That is addressed in other Scriptures. And Christian initiation is not synonymous with Baptism. Baptism is the climax of Christian initiation.
3rd. In the Epistle to Titus, St. Paul instructs St. Titus to instruct a Christian community. All Christian communities follow the Great Commission of Jesus Christ, to make disciples of the world.

By Christian initiation, I mean “How to become a Christian”, “How to enter the Kingdom of heaven on earth, “How to begin the Christian life”, “How to be born Again”.

To understand the process of conversion which leads one to Christian initiation and concludes in Baptism, please read the documents of the Council of Trent.

Now we are left with John 3:5 – the Gospel.

One verse of the Gospel of John.

We see that John the Baptist preached the “Baptism of Repentance”.

True. But John 3:5 doesn’t even mention John the Baptist. So, what are you talking about, the Baptism of Christ or the Baptism of John?

During the period covering the Gospels, people were baptized with John’s Baptism after producing “fruits of repentance” – Mathew 3:7-9. In other words, people who came to John’s Baptism after believing, were made disciples, xxxxx John 4:1 (showing fruits of repentance), and then they were baptized subsequently. Unlike in the Roman Catholic Church its totally topsy-turvy and therefore not compatible with New Testament Baptism.

Really? That’s what you think? Most Protestants castigate the Catholic Church because the Catholic Church requires everyone who converts to go through the Rite of Christian Iniation for adults (RCIA).

The best way to prove you wrong is to have you go to any Catholic Church and request Baptism. See if what you claim is true.

Also those people baptized during the period covering Gospels, had to be re-baptized again. I can elaborate more, but i’ll keep it for next time should the need arise

Only those Baptized by St. John. There is no indication that the Apostles, whom we assume were baptized by Christ, were ever re-baptized by water unless they were first disciples of St. John.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Which is more Biblical? 2

Protestants say that we are justified by faith alone.  The Catholic Church teaches that we are justified by faith and works.

Which is more Biblical?

Let's see what the Bible says.

Does the Bible say that we are justified by faith alone?  

The quick answer is, "No."

In fact, the Bible says the opposite:

James 2:24King James Version (KJV)24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

That's the quick answer.  Is there another?  

Yes, its a bit more complex.  The Bible also says:

Romans 3:28King James Version (KJV)28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

 This is the verse that Martin Luther interpreted in his Bible to say, "a man is justified by faith ALONE.

So, Martin Luther equated the words, "without the deeds of the law" with "alone".

Did Martin Luther have a point?  

The Catholic Church says, "No."

Why?  Doesn't "apart from works of the law" sound like "alone".  What else is there?

The Sacraments.  Protestants equate the Sacraments with works of man.  But they are not.  They are works of God.

740 These "mighty works of God," offered to believers in the sacraments of the Church, bear their fruit in the new life in Christ, according to the Spirit. ....

And the Protestant might ask, "But aren't the Sacraments, righteous works?"  

Because in another place, the Bible says, "not by righteous works".  But actually, it says, "not by righteous works which we have done...":

Titus 3:5King James Version (KJV)5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

But the Sacraments are works of God.  Not works which we have done.

Is that the only argument against Martin Luther's interpretation?  

No.  There is also this.

Galatians 5:6King James Version (KJV)6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

The way I understand that verse is like this.  Circumcision is a symbol of the Mosaic law.  Uncircumcision is a symbol of the Christian religion.  So, what St. Paul is saying is, if you claim to keep all Ten Commandments.  But you have not love.  You are nothing.

And if you have yourself baptized and have all the Sacraments.  But have not love.  You are nothing.

Does that sound familiar?  That's because he said it very eloquently in another verse:

1 Corinthians 13King James Version (KJV)1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Bottomline.  Without faith working by love, we are not saved.  Without faith working by love, we should not be baptized.  That is the bedrock of our faith.  That is why non-Catholics and non-Christians can be saved, even if they are never baptized, if they obey the law of love which is written in every man's heart:

Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

So, there are two arguments against justification by faith alone.  The first, justification by faith and the Sacraments.  This is what happens in Baptism and afterwards, in every other Sacrament.  Those who believe God will be justified by their faith without the Mosaic law.

However, there is an even more basic form of justification which is summarized in these words:

James 1:27  Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Is that what the Catholic Church teaches?  Yes.

837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but 'in body' not 'in heart.'"³²¹ 

Calling yourself Catholic is not a magic bullet for salvation.  As the Scripture also says:

Matthew 7:21King James Version (KJV)21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Ok, so, that's a lot to think about.  Let's try to sort this out.

Does the Bible teach that we are justified by faith alone?  No.  The Bible explicitly denies that teaching.

Does the Bible teach that we are justified by faith and works?  Yes.  The Bible explicitly says so:

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

So, what is justification by faith apart from deeds of the law?   First, it is not justification by faith alone.  It is the justification in the Sacraments.  Those of us who believe God and do His will, will request Baptism and believing God's promises, will be washed of our sins.

The Creeds are proofs against Sola Scriptura

The Creeds are proofs against Sola Scriptura

The Creeds are concise expressions of all that Christians believe. There are three Creeds which are called “ecumenical” because they express that which all Christians should believe and even the Reformed Christians accept these Creeds. 
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Only those doctrines that Baptists hold in common with the Catholic Church can be traced back to Jesus and the Disciples.

De Maria January 18, 2013 at 10:57 PM

dan morgan stanley September 5, 2012 at 5:26 AM
The thing is that people are always discrediting other peoples religion, but never start by crediting their own. It is not that the Baptist believe that the name Baptist has a running lineage, but that the beliefs the Baptist have can be traced back to the days of Jesus and the disciples.

Only those doctrines that Baptists hold in common with the Catholic Church can be traced back to Jesus and the Disciples.

I understand now that you think you have disproven the lineage of the Baptist.

It really goes without saying. The Baptists did not come into being until well after the Protestant Revolution. The group did not exist before that time.

How does that prove the doctrines of the Catholic church. Such as the Sacraments, or relics?

I’m not really sure what you mean. But from the context of the conversation, I think you mean, “How does that prove that the doctrines of the Catholic Church are from Jesus and the Apostles? There are many ways to do so. One way is to trace them through the Early Church Fathers. They will take you through the centuries to the beginning of Christianity and the Teachings of the Jesus Christ and the Apostles.

Another way is to find them in Scripture. The two examples you mention are found in these verses:

The Sacraments –
Hebrews 6:2
Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, ….

All the Sacraments are effusions of the Holy Spirit and therefore can all be described as Baptisms of the Holy Spirit.

Baptism-
Ephesians 5:26
That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

The Baptism ritual can be described as the washing of water by the word.

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

And of course, in the Sacrament of Baptism we wash away our sins calling on the name of the Lord.

Confession:
2 Corinthians 5:18
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Is also known as the ministry of reconciliation.

Hebrews 13:17
King James Version (KJV)
17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

And it is in the Sacrament of Confession that we give account of our sins to our priests and we submit to and obey their recommendations for our penance to make satisfaction for our sins and to repent and avoid those sins in the future.

Confirmation:
Acts 8:14-17
King James Version (KJV)
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

This is an example of the Sacrament of Confirmation being applied to baptized Christians in Scripture.

1 Corinthians 11:27
Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

This proves that the Apostles were already partaking of the Eucharist in Apostolic times.

Anointing:
James 5:14
Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

Presbytery:
1 Timothy 4:14
Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.

Relics:
Acts 19:12
So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.

Now, please provide support for Sola Scriptura or Sola Fide from Scripture. Either one will do. I will show you how the pillars of the Baptist sect contradict Scripture.

Sincerely,

De Maria

These things I have written unto you….

De Maria January 18, 2013 at 10:30 PM

Alan Almeida July 7, 2012 at 3:04 PM
Dear J P Valenzuela:

Yes you can know. God gives his promise in 1 John 5:13 – “These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. ”

Look at the context of that verse. He says, “These things I have written unto you….” What are “these things”? Well, let’s see:
1 John 5
King James Version (KJV)
5 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

So, tell me. Do you keep the Commandments? If you KNOW that you keep the Commandments, then you can know if you are saved. These are some of “these things” that St. John was talking about.

Today you can be saved and have eternal life, and the sure peace of knowing you are. That is God’s promise!

You can claim to save yourself and teach others to claim they save themselves all you want. But the truth is that we will all stand before the judgment seat of Christ:
Romans 14:10
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

And God will be the judge of your salvation. Not you, not I, not anyone else.

God Bless,
Alan Almeida

May God bless you as well.

Sincerely,

De Maria

That is a question only God can answer

De Maria January 18, 2013 at 10:22 PM

JP Valenzuela July 4, 2012 at 12:04 AM
Hello,

I was born and raised a Catholic but I just would like to know when I die will I go to heaven?

Thank you.

That is a question only God can answer.
Scripture says:
1 Corinthians 4:3-5
King James Version (KJV)
3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. 4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

Therefore, we live in hope, according to the Teaching of St. Paul:
Romans 8:23-25
King James Version (KJV)
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

So, then, wait patiently, Christ is coming:
Revelation 22:12-15
King James Version (KJV)
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Sincerely,

De Maria

En primer lugar, la Biblia es la palabra de Dios

De Maria January 18, 2013 at 11:16 PM

KURT JAMES LOPEZ September 10, 2012 at 1:19 AM
hi Steve, i heard you on catholic answers live . I’m from the Philippines and I’m a convert from baptist, though i was born as a catholic .how can baptist say that they have the right bible and that is the king james bible ? is it really the most purified version of the bible as my math teacher told me so ? please respond . i’m only 17 … and i do not have the capability to refute this as a catholic .

First of all, the Bible is the word of God. Therefore it can’t be “purified”. The word of God is without error.

However, I suppose that your math teacher may consider it the “best English” translation. That is a matter of “opinion”, or “personal preference” and can’t be disproved. I prefer the Douay Rheims in English.

Habla español?

En primer lugar, la Biblia es la palabra de Dios. Por lo tanto, no puede ser “purificada”. La palabra de Dios es sin error.

Supongo que tu profesor de matemáticas puede considerar que sea la “mejor traducción en Inglés”. Ese es un asunto de “opinión” o “preferencias personales” y no puede ser refutado. Yo prefiero el Douay Rheims en Inglés.

De Maria