Showing posts with label deuterocanonicals. Show all posts
Showing posts with label deuterocanonicals. Show all posts

Monday, January 5, 2015

Affirming an infallible Magisterium

A fellow Catholic named James and I have been talking to PeacebyJesus (PbJ) over at the Catholicism website.

PbJ was throwing us off with some of his verbiage.  One of which was that "...an infallible magisterium is essential for recognizing spiritual Truth...."  A saying which is basically true.  Without the infallible Magisterium, we would go the way of the 10's of thousands of Protestant denominations.

However, PbJ was putting a twist on what he was intending the phrase to convey.  What he meant was that Catholics claim that no truth can be identified without the Magisterium.  Well, that's not true.  So I challenged him to provide the Catholic Doctrine which says such a thing.

And he said that the Jews had done just fine identifying the Scriptures without an infallible Magisterium before the advent of the Church.  Well, that's not true.  Because, before the advent of Jesus and the Church, the Jewish Scriptures were in disarray.  There were hundreds of Jewish books which the Jews considered Scripture.    It is because Jesus Christ used the Greek Septuagint version of the Old Testament that the Catholic Church also used it.  And it is because Jesus Christ used the Septuagint, that the Jews rejected it and chose to use on the books written in Hebrew.

Anyway, here's how I answered that part of his response to James.

The Lamb's Supper




Peace By JESUS James • an hour ago
The fact is that that by affirming than an infallible magisterium is essential for recognizing spiritual Truth, dissent from which cannot be allowed as valid, which souls did who believed OT men and Scriptures before there was a church of Rome, and thus believed itinerant Preaches who were in dissent from those who sat in the seat of Moses, then you have invalidated the church.
That's what James means about you writing mumbo-jumbo. Ok. Let's break it down:
The fact is that that by affirming than an infallible magisterium is essential for recognizing spiritual Truth,
The Catholic Teaching is that the infallible Magisterium:
890 The mission of the Magisterium is linked to the definitive nature of the covenant established by God with his people in Christ. It is this Magisterium's task to preserve God's people from deviations and defections and to guarantee them the objective possibility of professing the true faith without error. Thus, the pastoral duty of the Magisterium is aimed at seeing to it that the People of God abides in the truth that liberates. To fulfill this service, Christ endowed the Church's shepherds with the charism of infallibility in matters of faith and morals. The exercise of this charism takes several forms:
You're insinuating that Catholics claim that no truth can be identified without the Magisterium. I want you to provide the proof of that claim from an official Catholic Doctrine or admit that you have created a straw man which you continue to pound into the ground. But it has nothing to do with the True Catholic Doctrine.
Ok, let's move on to your next claim.
dissent from which cannot be allowed as valid,
That's true. God speaks through the Catholic Church. Therefore, if the Catholic Church has declared something true and someone disagrees, that person is disagreeing with God.
which souls did who believed OT men and Scriptures before there was a church of Rome,
Not so. You need to do a bit of more studying on the OT.
The Jews did not put together an OT in one volume until after the time of Christ. Because they couldn't identify them. Have you ever heard of
the Apocryphal Books of Moses, Enoch, Adam, David, Elias etc.? The Jews did not condemn them. The Magisterium of the Catholic Church condemned them. Not the OT Jews. If it wasn't for the Magisterium of the Catholic Church, the Jews probably wouldn't have a single volume work of Scripture, today.
and thus believed itinerant Preaches
The itinerant preachers were representatives of the Catholic Church. That can easily be proven. You don't believe that any man can represent God. Nor that any man can represent Christ. Yet, those itinerant preachers believed they were doing just that.
2 Corinthians 5:20King James Version (KJV)
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
And they didn't go around proving anything by Scripture alone. They taught the Traditions of Jesus Christ and showed the truth of them in the Scriptures.
1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
2 Thessalonians 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
Those are the three elements of Church Teaching. Tradition, Scripture as taught by the Magisterium.
who were in dissent from those who sat in the seat of Moses,
They weren't preaching because they were in disagreement with the Jews. They were preaching because they were sent by Christ so to do:
Matt 28:19-20
Matthew 28:19-20King James Version (KJV)
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
then you have invalidated the church.
Nope. You have made void the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ which He died upon the Cross to give to you. We submit to His Church and through the Church to Him who established it and authorized it to preach the Wisdom of God to all generations.

Wednesday, October 29, 2014

Which book of the Bible is essential to salvation?

Lutero:
When it comes to the 'extra' books found in the Roman Catholic Bible, just exactly how did they get there?
 They are part of the Old Testament which is included in the Vulgate by St. Jerome.

Many Roman Catholics wonder why and how we can say we have the Bible and yet non-RC Bibles do not include these 'extra' books which are obviously found in theirs. What do these 'extra' books contain?
 Historical, metaphorical, wisdom and prophetic literature of the Jews.

Why are they there?
 For our spiritual edification.

Are they essential to salvation

Which book of the Bible is essential to salvation? There are many lessons in most books of the Bible which are essential to salvation.

-- and if they are not - why not?

First, you'll have to prove which books you consider essential. Then which doctrines you consider essential, for instance Sola Scriptura, is it essential. Then since you believe in Sola Scriptura, you'll have to provide the Scripture and verse proving all these things are required in Scripture.

Can Roman Catholics who really know, give some intelligent and meaningful answers to these questions?

They have continually done so. But the same confused and illogical objections and questions are repeated by Protestants.

Whereas, no intelligent or meaningful response is forthcoming concerning the justification for the doctrine of Sola Scriptura from Scripture.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Monday, October 27, 2014

The Epistle of James is a canonical book


De Maria said...
Proteus,

I asked, "do you agree with Luther's attack against a canonical book of Scripture."

this was the answer you gave:
My response was to your question as to whether i agreed with attacking the veracity of a canonical book of the Bible, in which i pointed out that what Luther attacked was not part of your infallible canon at the time, and that he had scholarly reasons for disallowing it as Scripture, ....

Correct me if I'm wrong. But haven't you and I discussed the canon of Scripture in the past and you said that the canonical books were selected by the Holy Spirit before they were even put in the Bible by the Catholic Church?

Now you say that the Epistle of James was not a canonical book by the 15th century during Luther's lifetime?

You're digging a deeper and deeper hole.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Sunday, October 26, 2014

Scripture tells us to follow men who follow Jesus

Proteus said:
Your understanding has been an issue before,…. I am not much of a follower of men personally, probably to a fault,

I'm glad you said that, because Scripture says:
Philippians 3:17 
Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

And therefore, the Word of God tells us to follow MEN.

and can differ as i see fit, and have limited interest in Luther but from what i know of him i see him as a man of courageous faith who provided some necessary moral and doctrinal correction,….The claims of the Catholic blogger was one of them and your attempt to equate Luther's rejection of James with the promotion of moral laity also is a stretch. 

Please quote me. Because I don't remember making any such promotion. However, I did claim that you avoid responding to questions. And this is a case in point.


Anyway, it is Rome that most evidences it believes faith without works (which signify Scripture regeneration) will save them, , because of faith in Rome to save anyone who die in her arms, and as you promote a church and not simply a faith, as we do, when Rome is reformed then less souls will leave it due to its spiritual lack.

Whether anyone leaves the Catholic Church is besides the point. The point being discussed is whether you agree with Luther that the Canonical book known as the Epistle of St. James contradicts Scripture.



It is indeed a jab, an overall statement which is based upon abundant evidence , 
Nah. Nothing but innuendo.

and as a former Catholic in a heavenly Catholic region

Amen to that. Because the Catholic Church is heaven on earth!

who personally knows both sides, becoming manifestly born again while still a Catholic, .... The more their view of the Bible is like evangelicals then the more conservative they are.

Conservative does not mean good or virtuous. And you have gone very far around the block and yet I perceive no answer to the simple question asked of you.




I have not contended that Luther did not reject James as regards what actually appropriates justification, at least initially, or as not being Scripture, but the links i provided enables more objectivity. 

Thank you. Finally an answer to the question at issue. There is nothing you can provide which can defend Luther's attack on the Word of God (i.e. his attack on the Epistle of St. James.) All you can do is justify his position.



And due to your preoccupation with an issue which does not correspond to what my “findings” show, and which required an extended exchange which requires a multiplicity of posts on a blog as this and the time it takes, and as i have lots to do, and the Catholic restriction on objectivity when things challenge their faith, i think the exchange on this topic needs to end for now.


It is your choice to write reams of non related material in order to justify Luther's attack towards a canonical book of the Bible.

Sincerely,
De Maria

Thursday, October 23, 2014

Jesus used the Septuagint


Calvin:
I'm not sure I exactly understand what you are asking, so forgive me if you think I am avoiding the question.
The Jewish Canon, that Scripture which Jesus Himself believed in did not include the Apocryphal books.
The Jewish Canon which Jesus used is called the Septuagint. It contained the Deuterocanonicals. 


The number of books in the Hebrew Old Testament is 24 in the Hebrew method of counting which is equivalent to the 39 books we have in our English translations with our English methods of counting.
Actually, that is the Old Testament which was modified by the Hebrew speaking Jews in the 2nd Century after Christ. In rebellion of the Tradition of Jesus Christ and as a result of the Jewish persecution of the Christian Church, the Jews decided to remove from the Bible any books which were written in the Greek Language. 

You hold in your hands, the Old Testament held by those who oppose Christ.


The apocryphal books were only included in the Old Testament as late as the non-Christian Greek translation called The Septuagint.
The Old Testament is also non-Christian. The Old Testament is Jewish, including the Septuagint.


In other words, the Jewish Old Testament that Jesus believed to be authoritative did not contain the Apocryphal books.
Yes. It did. Jesus read from the Septuagint.


The Septuagint was translated around 300 B.C. while the earliest copies that we have are from 300 A.D. and it was between these 600 years that the Apocryphal books crept into the Greek Canon, yet they never appeared in the Hebrew Canon, nor did Jesus ever quote them or consider them to be authoritative.
There are many books of the OT which Jesus did not quote. If you were to throw them all out, your Bible would be very slim.


No New Testament book references an Apocryphal book as authoritative. Jesus does not teach from it.
Again, very few Old Testament books are referenced in the New Testament at all. If that is the criteria for authoritativeness, then you will have a very slim Bible.


Jesus says in Luke 24:44, "He said to them, 'This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms" (NIV).
So it does. But that does not say, "throw out the Deuterocanonicals." And we see that Jesus and the Apostles included the Deuterocanonicals in their preaching and teaching:

Matt. 6:19-20 - Jesus' statement about laying up for yourselves treasure in heaven follows Sirach 29:11 - lay up your treasure.

Mark 9:48 - description of hell where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched references Judith 16:17.

Luke 21:24 - Jesus' usage of "fall by the edge of the sword" follows Sirach 28:18.

John 3:13 - who has ascended into heaven but He who descended from heaven references Baruch 3:29.

1 Cor. 2:16 - Paul's question, "who has known the mind of the Lord?" references Wisdom 9:13.

James 1:19 - let every man be quick to hear and slow to respond follows Sirach 5:11.

Therefore, Jesus and the Apostles were aware of the Deuterocanonicals but never denied the inspiration thereof.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Friday, August 22, 2014

But I have seen many Protestants cast doubts upon the Word of God



Calvino:

Yep, they are willing to shamelessly cast doubt on God's word all for the same of trying to give glory to their denom. It is sad.
I have yet to see even one Catholic cast doubt upon God's Word. Beginning with Luther, I have seen many Protestants who disparage the Scriptures.  Many Protestants today say:

Mark 16:16 is not part of the Bible.
1 John 5:6 is not part of the Bible.

And all of them cast out the Deuterocanonicals.

This is in line with Luther's attitude toward Scripture.  He said:

I am so hostile to this book and to Esther that I could wish they did not exist at all; for they judaize too greatly and have much pagan impropriety.” ( Tischedren, I, Weimar Edition, 1912, 208)

He even wanted to discard five books of the New Testament, chief amongst them the Epistle of St. James which he called the Epistle of straw.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Sunday, November 11, 2012

They were also inspired to SPEAK!



Calvin:

You believe that because that is what your church teaches
Actually it is believed that Jesus used the Hebrew scriptures as we see demonstrated in this quote where Jesus quoted Hebrew

Mat 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Jesus quoted from both. But there are more quotes from the Septuagint in the New Testament, than from the Hebrew Old Testament.



Really??The only books Jesus did not quote from are Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Solomon. Jesus quoted from 24 different Old Testament books.and not one of the non canonical books ..Hardly a MUCH thinner Bible.
How many books are in your Old Testament? I thought there were 39?

39-24=15 That's a 62 per cent reduction. If you lost 62% of your weight, that would make you much slimmer. So, yes, much slimmer, holds.


Not ONE of the books Rome added.. NOT ONE
Again, if we follow that criteria, you should have a 24 book Old Testament. Do you? Why not?


Are those EXACT word for word quotations? I think not...

So? They are references. I don't see any rule in Scripture which says, "If this book is not quoted in the New Testament, it must be removed." Or can you produce such a thing? No, all you can do is provide another doctrine of men which you follow.


All Scripture is inspired by God to the writer, therefore all Scripture is written by prophets ( those that hear from God)
Absolutely. They were also inspired to SPEAK! To Preach! To Teach! And then to write the Scripture.


If a prophet errors they are not a prophet.. and those books contain error ...
No they don't. The doctrines which you follow contain error. And then you place your error ridden doctrines over the Word of God.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Friday, August 17, 2012


Hi Lutero,
I don’t think we can have it both ways. You are saying that God guides the Church, but the Church has done some pretty nasty stuff – crusades, inquisitions, burning people at the stake, the silence of the Church in the face of the holocaust, and the sex scandals and cover ups of our own times…..
Any evil ever committed by any man was done IN SPITE of the Teachings of the Catholic Church, not because of them.
These involve more than just the occasional bishop or priest. A lot of this stuff was done by the Church under the guidance of the Bishops….
For instance?
And in matters of theology: Did God guide the Church to make the Apocrypha part of the Bible against the witness of the Hebrew Canon?
Strange question. 78 Hebrews interpreted the Old Testament into Greek before the time of Christ and that version is called the Septuagint. It is the version of the OT which Christ used.
Your assumption that the 66 book Canon is the original or somehow the correct Canon is false.
Did God guide the Catholic Church to condemn heliocentrism as “false and contrary to scripture”?
The Church didn’t condemn “heliocentrism”. One court case came to the conclusion that Galileo was wrong because he stated that the Scriptures contained error.
Centuries before, “heliocentrism” was already being taught by St. Albert the Great, St. Thomas Aquinas, Copernicus and others. If the Church had condemned heliocentrism, they would also have been condemned.
Did God guide the Church into selling the forgiveness of sins in the form of indulgences?
Yes:
Luke 11:41
But rather give alms of such things as ye have; and, behold, all things are clean unto you.
Matthew 19:21
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
Mark 9:41
For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.
Basically, we’d be saying that God guides the Church except for when He doesn’t guide the Church. Or else, He guides the Church, but the Church does not always follow that guidance. Either way, you wind up with the same problem that Protestants have, “God has guided the Church on some things but not on others.”
God guides the Church in all matters. Individuals decide for themselves whether they will accept His guidance:
Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
I accept the New Testament as authoritative. I accept the Apostles and Nicene Creeds – and Chalcedon – as authoritative statements on the grounds that they bear witness to the faith as received and understood by the Church from the beginning.
As do we.
I really don’t mean to be impolite,
I don’t consider it impolite.
and perhaps my comment will reveal some logical error of mine which one of you could perhaps be so kind as to correct for me.
I hope that helps.
God Bless You All and Thank You.....
And you as well,
Sincerely,
De Maria

Tuesday, October 25, 2011

JUST FOR my fellow CATHOLCS - Deuterocanonicals


Just for Catholics is a website where Dr. Mizzi seeks to convince Catholics to leave the Catholic Church. I am reviewing his teachings and comparing them to the Word of God in Tradition, Scripture and Magisterium. We are currently on this article.  Today I am going to depart from my usual procedure and blatantly plagiarize another Catholic's work.  I'm not a scholar of Bible history and I see no sense in reinventing the wheel.   Dr. Mizzi's words in blue.



Apocrypha are Not Canonical


File:McVey wide skyscraper.jpg
Question: How do you know that the Protestant Bible is the right one, and not the Catholic Bible, which includes more books in the Old Testament?


Answer: The Protestant and Catholic Bible are identical except for a set of books called the apocrypha or deuterocanonicals.


The apocrypha consists of 15 pieces of Jewish literature written around 200 years B.C. They are included with the Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures known as the Septuagint. Seven of these books (First and Second Maccabees, Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Baruch and Ecclesiasticus, also known as Sirach) and additions to Esther and Daniel, are considered canonical by the Roman Catholic Church. Protestants do not accept them as part of the Holy Scriptures.


R. K. Harrison explains: "Use of the term apocrypha to mean noncanonical goes back to the fifth century AD, when Jerome urged that the books found in the Septuagint and in the Latin Bibles that did not occur in the canon of the Hebrew Old Testament writings should be treated as apocryphal. They were not to be disregarded entirely, since they were part of the great contemporary outpouring of Jewish national literature. At the same time they should not be used as sources for Christian doctrine, but at best for supplementary reading of an uplifting and inspirational nature" [1]


Nicholas: This is not quite accurate. The term "apocrypha" was used in two ways, primarily the term "apocrypha" was used in reference to books which were never accepted by any Christians. The term did sometimes mean the Deutero-Cathonical books which Catholics accept, but because the term is used in different ways, it depends on the context.


These books do not make any claim to inspiration. On the contrary, the prologue of Sirach (Ecclesiasticus) asks pardon from the readers for all inexactitudes: "I entreat you... pardon us for those things wherein we may seem, while we follow the image of wisdom, to come short in the composition of words." The author of Maccabees concludes by saying, "I also will here make an end of my narration. Which if I have done well, and as it becometh the history, it is what I desired: but if not so perfectly, it must be pardoned me" (2 Maccabees 15:28, 39). That is not the language of divine inspiration!


Nicholas: The charge that they "do not make any claim to inspiration" is a dangerous one. Many non-Biblical books make reference to inspiration, while many books of the Bible don't make any reference to inspiration. As for those two quotes Dr. Mizzi gives, the first quote is ripped out of context:


I entreat you therefore to come with benevolence, and to read with attention, and to pardon us for those things wherein we may seem, while we follow the image of wisdom, to come short in the composition of words; for the Hebrew words have not the same force in them when translated into another tongue. And not only these, but the law also itself, and the prophets, and the rest of the books, have no small difference, when they are spoken in their own language.


The issue here is not about inspiration, but the fact that there is not a perfect carry over from Hebrew to another language. Regarding the 2 Maccabees conclusion, the author is talking not about the truth but about style of writing. It is a display of humility saying he wrote to the best of his gifts, but is not denying there could be a better way of explaining the same account. God includes the author's personality and style when He inspires them to write. Paul makes it clear he is not the best speaker in the world (2 Cor 11:6), but does not disqualify him from getting the truth across. The same could be said about Moses, who was also not good at public speaking. In 1 Cor 1:16, Paul says he "doesn't remember" if he baptized anyone else, certainly this does not mean 1 Corinthians is not inspired!


First Maccabees notes that there were no prophets in Israel at that time (1 Maccabees 4:46; 9:27; 14:41). Since the New Testament frequently refers to the Scriptures as "the Law and the Prophets" (Matthew 5:17; 7:12; 11:13; 22:40; Luke 16:16; 24:44; John 1:45; Acts 13:15; 24:14; 28:23; Romans 3:21), how could a writing that specifically states that there were no prophets at the time when it was written be called Scripture?


Nicholas: This is a misunderstanding. The term "Law and Prophets" is a summary of all the Old Testament, the fact is the historical books like Chronicles did not technically fall into the category of "Prophets" (and certainly not Law). Also, books like Esther and Song of Songs, Job, etc don't fall into the category of "Prophets." Further, nothing demands a prophet must be currently living to be inspired.


What is more serious, the apocrypha teach doctrines that contradicts Scripture (see, for instance, Sirach 3:3,30, in contrast with Galatians 2:16,21; 3:10-14; Tobit 12:9 contradicts 1 John 1:7 and Hebrews 9:22; Wisdom 8:19,20 contradicts Romans 3:10). They encourage practices that do not conform to Scripture (Sirach 12:4-7 disagrees with Luke 6:27-38 and Matthew 5:43-48).


Nicholas: Dr. Mizzi must have misquoted here, Sirach 3:3, 30 is nothing to do with Galatians 2,3. Tobit 12:9 talks about how alms forgive sins, and Dr. Mizzi considers this heretical, yet Prov 16:6; Lk 11:41; 1 Pt 4:8; James 5:20; etc suggest the same thing. Wisdom 8 is poetic and not necessarily literal, kind of like Song of Songs or Ecclesiasties, it does not contradict Rom 3:10 (though I would wonder if Dr. Mizzi thinks Lk 1:5-6 contradicts it). As for Sirach 12 contradicting Mat 5:43, Jesus affirms the OT was not the ideal in that very verse, so Dr. Mizzi should not be making that argument.


Thus far, it should be clear that Dr. Mizzi has less of a case against the Deutero-Canonical Books than he made it appear, in fact he is being more unfair to the D-C Books than he would be of the rest of the OT (and there are various 'difficulties' in the OT).


Recently, someone asked me, "I was on a Catholic website that claimed the book of Judith is a parable. So when it says Nebuchadnezzar is the leader of the Assyrians it's not to be taken literally. What do you think about this?" Well, I think the reason why we are advised that the Book of Judith should not be taken literally is quite simple. The introductory verse of the books states:


"It was the twelfth year of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar, king of the Assyrians in the great city of Nineveh. At that time Arphaxad ruled over the Medes in Ecbatana."


But King Nebuchadnezzar was NOT the king of Assyria; he was the king of Babylon! (See, for example, 2 Kings 24:11 - "And Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came against the city, and his servants did besiege it") So, if we take Judith as a historical book, the evident historical blunder immediately undermines its supposed canonicity and inspiration.


The Catholic solution? Judith is not history - it is a parable! Even so, why should someone include evident historical stupidities in a parable? Imagine beginning a story like this: "When Sir Winston Churchill was President of the United States…" That does not give much credibility to your story, does it?


Nicholas: If it is a parable then it is a parable, end of story. Nebuchadnezzar could be equated to someone like Hitler, when you hear the name you immediately think "very wicked man," so if it is a parable then that could be why such a name was used. Or, it could be that there was more than one Nebuchadnezzar, just like there was more than one Herod in the New Testament, thought that is not explicitly indicated (Mat 2:19 &14:1 cannot be the same Herod).


In the New Testament there are about 260 direct quotations from, and about 370 allusions to the books of the Old Testament. When Jesus and His apostles quote or allude to the Old Testament books, it is clear that they considered them authoritative and canonical. For example in John 10:34,35 the Lord Jesus quotes Psalm 82:6, and immediately comments that the scriptures cannot be broken. For the apostle Paul, "It is written" (in the Old Testament books) was the sure ground for his doctrinal teaching. Thus the New Testament testifies to divine authority of the Old Testament. Significantly there are no such quotations to the apocrypha that imply divine inspiration of these books. (See Are the Apocrypha Quoted in the New Testament?)


Nicholas: Dr. Mizzi makes a blunder here basing canonicity upon quotation or allusion to the OT Books, because the fact is not all OT books which Dr. Mizzi accepts are quoted or alluded to in the NT. Further, it cannot be denied that there are some of the most clear allusions to the NT in the Deutero Canonical books, Wisdom 2:12-20 is probably the most explicit prophecy of Jesus in the whole OT.


It must be stressed that these books were not considered canonical by the Jews. These books are written in Greek and are not part of the Massoretic Text, which are copies of the inspired Hebrew text of the Scriptures. The Jewish historian, Josephus, states as a matter of fact that the Jews considered only 22 books of divine origin (equivalent to 39 books in the Protestant Old Testament, since some of them - such as the minor prophets - were counted as one book). To this day, the Jews hold to the same canon held by Evangelicals. The rejection by the Jews of the apocrypha is very significant, because they were the people entrusted with the words of God.


"What advantage then hath the Jew?...Much every way: chiefly, because unto them were committed the oracles (words) of God" (Romans 3:1,2).


The church inherited the canonical books from God's Old Covenant people, the Jews. (God also gave the church additional books, the New Testament, which completes the Holy Bible). It does not make sense to make additions to the books of the Old Testament many centuries after the covenant with the Jewish people had given way to the new. The Church in the New Testament has no business adding to the canon of the Old Covenant Scriptures received by the Jews.


Nicholas: There are serious problems with the above comments. First of all, there was more than one canon for the Jews. The Septuagint was the Greek translation of the Old Testament, and it contains the Deutero-Canonical Books. The Septuagint was the most popular translation for Jews, and the New Testament writers quoted the Septuagint for their Old Testament references the great majority of the time. The Deutero-Canonical books were also written by Jews, so Dr. Mizzi's case is very misleading. Further, there was no official fixed canon for the Jews and only after the Apostolic Age, but at that point it doesn't matter because regardless of their canon at that point the Jews also rejected the New Testament writings meaning we don't look to that point in Jewish history for our canonicity. As for Dr. Mizzi's claim of adding new material to the OT many centuries after the New Covenant, that is very historically inaccurate because the Deutero-Canonical books were written centuries before Jesus.


Indeed, many Christian leaders throughout church history taught that the Hebrew Bible consisted of 22 books. These correspond to the 39 books of the Old Testament of the Protestant Bible. (The numbers differ because some books, such as Samuel and Kings, are divided into two books, First and Second Samuel, etc, in the Protestant Bible). [2]


Nicholas: This is not quite accurate either, the 22 books of the Jewish numbering system did not necessarily correspond to the 39 books of the Protestant Bible. Further, the way the books were numbered as 22 books required many books to be counted as one, thus the Deutero-Canon is not automatically excluded (and in fact sometimes were included, as is shown at the end of this response).


How then did the apocryphal writings find their way in the Catholic Bible? Early in the second century, the first Latin translations of the Bible were done from the Septuagint (which included the apocrypha). There was a conflict between the great Fathers, Augustine and Jerome, regarding the value of the apocrypha. Augustine accepted them because he used the Septuagint which contained these books and which was popular in North Africa. Jerome was one of the few Fathers who knew both Greek and Hebrew, and he rejected the apocrypha because he knew that those books were not accepted by the Jews and were not part of the Hebrew Scriptures.


Nicholas: Look at the argument given above. Dr. Mizzi openly proves that the Catholic Church didn't just add these books out of nowhere. The Septuagint was the most popular translation among Jews at the time of Christ and the favorite translation of the early Christians, and Dr. Mizzi admits the Deutero-Canonical books were included! Also, Dr. Mizzi shows that St Augustine openly accepted the Deutero-Canonical books, and St Augustine is usually a Protestant hero. I guess St Augustine was not guided by the Holy Spirit or something to be able to discern inspiration and canonicity. As for Jerome's objection, he counted the Deutero-Canonical books of a secondary status (but by no means worthless and to be thrown out), but later dropped that objection (especially because the post-Apostolic Jews don't have any say on our canon).


Greatly influenced by Augustine, the provincial councils of Hippo and Carthage in the fourth century included the apocrypha as part of the Old Testament canon. However, we must add that contrary to the impression given by Catholic apologists, the apocrypha were not officially recognized by the Catholic church as canonical at Hippo and Carthage. The apocrypha were finally added to the Old Testament by the Catholic Church at the Council of Trent in the 16th century. Moreover the canon approved by Carthage is different from that approved by Trent. The Council of Trent omits the Septuagint First Esdras which had been included by Carthage; while Second Esdras (Ezra and Nehemiah combined in a single book in the Septuagint) were distinguished as two separate books (First Esdras and Second Esdras, also known as Nehemiah).


Nicholas: Dr. Mizzi admits that there were Christians out there who accepted the Deutero-Canonical books in the early Church, which hurts his claims about genuine Christians having the Holy Spirit touch their heart to tell them what is canonical or not. Second, those local councils were ratified by two Catholic popes, who agreed with the listing and kept this listing all the way up to the Council of Florence (before Luther) and up through Trent. Trent did not "add" the Deutero-Canonical books, rather it infallibly listed the whole canon because, as shown elsewhere, the Protestant Reformation gave way to lay men deciding canonicity for themself. (Luther himself doubted the canonicity of books like Hebrews, 2&3 John, 2 Peter and most of all the Epistle of James). The Catholic Church exercises the power of infallibility whenever it determines an issue needs to be clarified, so up till Trent the tradition was to keep the canon passed on for centuries (which included the Deutero-Canonical books), then when this tradition was challenged by the Protestants threatening to rip apart the canon the Church stepped in at the Council of Trent.


As for the charge that Trent lists different books than Carthage and Hippo, that is unproven. There were often multiple names given to certain books, and sometimes books were combined. Thus if First Esdras and Second Esdras were listed, they could mean a variety of combination ranging from Ezra and Nehemiah as the two Esdras books to Ezra and Nehemiah being combined into one Esdras book while the other Esdras book was a separate book. The Councils of Carthage and Hippo used the name 'two books of Esdras' to refer to what Catholics and Protestants modernly call Ezra and Nehemiah, and this is what was ratified at Trent.


Up to the time of the Reformation, they were not generally regarded as canonical books on the same level as the Old Testament Scripture. "St Jerome distinguished between canonical books and ecclesiastical books. The latter he judged were circulated by the Church as good spiritual reading but were not recognized as authoritative Scripture" (The New Catholic Encyclopaedia, The Canon).


Nicholas: Dr. Mizzi gives no evidence "up to the time of the Reformation" the Deutero-Canonical books were not regarded as canonical, and in fact that is false (eg the Council of Florence and the Latin Vulgate listed them).


Pope Gregory the Great says this about the apocrypha: "…we are not acting irregularly, if from the books, though not canonical, yet brought out for the edification of the Church, we bring forth testimony" (Moral Teachings Drawn from Job; 19, 34).


Nicholas: I was unable to find this source online, but as it stands it is only half a sentence and not enough to form a fair conclusion. On top of that, the sheer amount of misquotes and such thus far in Dr. Mizzi's work should not lead to much worry for the Catholic.


After listing the canonical books of the Scriptures, St Athanasius wrote: "There are other books besides the aforementioned, which, however, are not canonical. Yet, they have been designated by the Fathers to be read by those who join us and who wish to be instructed in the word of piety: the Wisdom of Solomon; and the Wisdom of Sirach; and Esther; and Judith; and Tobias..." (Thirty-ninth festal letter, 367).


Nicholas: The Deutero-Canonical books are called such because they were not accepted on the same level as the rest of Scripture by all the early Church, though a reasonable number did accept them. Further, it is noteworthy that these books were still considered worthy of Christian reading, contrary to Dr. Mizzi's earlier claims that these books teach heresy. On top of that, in this same Letter St Athanasius includes in his OT canon list Deutero-Canonical books like Baruch.


Cardinal Cajetan, a leading Roman Catholic scholar at the time of the Reformation in the sixteenth century, clearly states that the apocryphal books are not canonical and cannot be used to confirm matters of faith. (See St Jerome and the Apocrypha). "Even on the eve of the council [of Trent] the Catholic view was not absolutely unified...Catholic editions of the Bible published in Germany and in France in 1527 and 1530 contained only the protocanonical books" [3] i.e. the list of Old Testament books of these Catholic Bibles was identical to the Hebrew and Protestant Bibles.


Nicholas: Cardinal Cajetan could have held doubts, but his views don't determine Church doctrine. The major Latin translations (the official Church languge) of the Church did contain the Deutero-Canonical books, and that is what Trent mentioned during the sessions regarding the canon.


Following the Lord Jesus, His apostles and the writers of the New Testament, we often refer and quote from the books of the Old Testament to establish our faith, and like them we never use the apocrypha for that purpose.


Nicholas: This line of thinking is erroneous and even problematic for the New Testament does not quote every book of Dr. Mizzi's Protestant canon, so according to that logic he would have to conclude those books don't belong.


[1] Harrison R. K. Old Testament and New Testament Apocrypha, The Origin of the Bible, ed. Wesley Comfort Philip (Tyndale House Publishers 1992, 2003), p 84. [back]




[2] The information is taken from http://biblejournal.net/psalm119.htm




Melito (170 A.D.), in agreement with the original Jewish reckoning, gave the number of Old Testament books as 22. (Eusebius, Eccl. Hist., 4.26.14).

Nicholas: If you look up this reference, the Deutero-Canonical book of Wisdom is explicitly listed.


Origen (210 A.D.), "It should be stated that the canonical books, as the Hebrews have handed them down, are twenty-two; corresponding with the number of their letters." (Eusebius, Eccl. Hist.)

Nicholas: There is no precise reference to the source given, so it can only be assumed Dr. Mizzi has Book VI:25 in mind. In that section the 22 book numbering system is employed, but there are Deutero-Canonical books explicitly listed in that numbering (eg Baruch, Maccabees).

These two examples are sufficient proof that the 22 book numbering system does not at all mean that the Deutero-Canonical books were excluded, in fact they were sometimes included as the two examples show, so Dr. Mizzi's original point fails.

Given this, there is no need to go through the rest of these references to "twenty-two" books.


Hilary of Poitiers (360 A.D.), "The Law of the Old Testament is considered as divided into twenty-two books, so as to correspond to the number of letters." (Tractate on Psalms, prologue 15)




Athanasius (365 A.D.), "There are then of the Old Testament twenty-two books in number ... this is the number of the letters among the Hebrews." (Letter 39.4)




The Council of Laodicea (343-391 A.D.), Twenty-two books. (Canon 60)




Cyril of Jerusalem (386 A.D.), "Read the divine scriptures, the twenty-two books of the Old Testament." (Catechetical Lectures 2, 4.33)




Gregory of Nazianzus (390 A.D.), "I have exhibited twenty-two books, corresponding with the twenty-two letters of the Hebrews." (Carmina, 1.12)




Epiphanius (400 A.D.), Twenty-two books. (De Nensurius et Ponderibus, 4)




Rufinus (410 A.D.): Twenty-two books. (Commentary in Symbols of the Apostles, 37)




Jerome (410 A.D.), "That the Hebrews have twenty-two letters is testified ... as there are twenty-two elementary characters by means of which we write in Hebrew all we say ... so we reckon twenty-two books by which ... a righteous man is instructed." (Preface to the Books of Samuel and Kings)




Synopsis of Sacred Scripture (c. 500 A.D.), "The canonical books of the Old Testament are twenty-two, equal in number to the Hebrew letters; for they have so many original letters."




Isidore of Seville (600 A.D.) said the Old Testament was settled by Ezra the priest into twenty-two books "that the books in the Law might correspond in number with the letters." (Liber de Officiis)




Leontius (610 A.D.), "Of the Old Testament there are twenty-two books." (De Sectis)




John of Damascus (730 A.D.): "Observe further that there are two and twenty books of the Old Testament, one for each letter of the Hebrew alphabet." (An Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith, 4.17)




Nicephorus (9th century A.D.), "There are two and twenty books of the Old Testament." (Stoichiometry)




Jesudad, Bishop of Hadad, Syria (852 A.D.) recognized a canon of twenty-two books. (John E. Steinmueller, A Companion to Scripture Studies, vol.1, p.80)




Hrabanus (9th century A.D.) said the Old Testament was formed by Ezra into twenty-two books "that there might be as many books in the Law as there are letters." (Whitaker, Disputation)




Peter of Cluny (1150 A.D.): Twenty-two books. (Edward Reuss, Canon of the Holy Scriptures, p.257)




John of Salisbury (1180 A.D.): Twenty-two books. (Edward Reuss, Canon of the Holy Scriptures, p.257)




Hugh of St. Victor (12th Century): "As there are twenty-two alphabetic letters, by means of which we write in Hebrew, and speak what we have to say, so twenty-two books are reckoned, by means of which ... the yet tender infancy of our man is instructed, while it yet hath need of milk." (Didascalicae Eruditionis, 4.80)




Richard of St. Victor (13th Century), Twenty-two books. (Tractatus Exceptionum, 2.9)




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[3] Brown R. E. and Collins R. F. Canonicity, The New Jerome Biblical Commentary, ed. Raymond E. Brown, Joseph A. Fitzmyer, Roland E. Murphy (Bangalore: Theological Publications in India, 2000), p 1042. [back]


I don't know you Nicholas, but thanks for your excellent response!

Sincerely,

De Maria