Not faithful?

                       ROBERT May 25, 2013 at 10:16 am

1. Actually, I don’t feel good about myself. I am confident in my salvation not because I am faithful but because the Judge became incarnate and gave His life for me, and, believing in His resurrection I am saved. Before God’s bar of justice, I am not faithful. He doesn’t grade on a curve, y’know. You're not faithful? And yet you are confident in your salvation? But didn't you say that you were saved by your faith alone? If you have no faith, then that means you have no salvation. Does God save the faithless? Didn't you say that He doesn't grade on a curve?
2. Your belief system is full of contradictions.

3. Throwing out a random verse from Romans 14 that is not dealing with justification proves nothing. You should actually try and make an argument from a verse that is pertinent to the situation.

   You've yet to provide any verse at all and your words are so contradictory, I don't think you'll be able to provide any verses.  The Scriptures do not contradict themselves. 

   Apparently, you don’t know that you are saved. 

   Because God is my Judge.  Here's what Scripture says about that:

4. 1 Corinthians 4:2-4 King James Version

   2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful. 3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

5. At least you’re being consistent with Roman teaching. But I tell you that you can know you are saved and that God wants you to know if you are saved. But that would mean trusting in Christ alone and not in a church that cannot save you. If you can participate in the mass daily and still end up in hell, the sacraments are doing absolutely nothing for you.

   Where does Scripture say to trust in Christ alone?  You claim to trust Scripture, which was not written by Christ, therefore you're putting your trust in other people, not in Christ alone.  And you also trust your mom and dad, I assume.  I do.  And there are many other people whom I trust.  Here's what Scripture says about trusting others:

6. Hebrews 13:7 King James Version

   7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation. 

   Sounds like Scripture wants you to trust your leaders in the Church. 

7. 
   

Objections of a former Catholic

i heard this discussion on the radio. i was raised catholic, but married a divorced man and now attend a non-denominational church. Here is my question–john the baptist and jesus all did full submersion baptism.

There is an assumption here. The assumption being that they ONLY did full submersion Baptism.

how can/does the Catholic church justify infant sprinkling ?

By the authority given to the Church by Jesus Christ (Matt 16:18-19; Matt 28:19-20; John 20:21-23)

1. the infant is not old enough to make the choice on their own

In the Gospels, the children which Jesus saved were too young to seek His aid on their own. Their parents needed to do it for them. And Jesus always healed them on behalf of their parents. (Matthew 15:28; John 4:50).

Why then, would Jesus refuse to save the little children in Baptism? (Matthew 19:14)

and 2. the baptism is not submersion–like john the baptist and Jesus.

According to the Tradition of the Catholic Church, all three types of Baptism are permitted.

If you want to interpret the requirement of Baptism according to the letter, then you must be Baptized in the Jordan River. There is no other river mentioned where anyone else was Baptized.

By the way, full submersion is not mentioned either. That is a Protestant reading into Scripture.

A recent discussion about authority

De Maria, 
The problem with your statement is that ROME had no authority over Christendom. 

On the contrary, Glenn, Jesus Christ established the Catholic Church and empowered her to:

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.  19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:  20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

The Roman bishop originated as equal in authority to all other bishops (Constantinople, Jerusalem, Antioch, et al). The Roman bishop apostatized and declared himself as authority over all the Church as he brought in all the heresy still taught by Rome today.

On the contrary, Jesus Christ appointed St. Peter as the head of His Church.  It is clearly stated in Scripture.

John 21:17 King James Version (KJV)

17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

And when the Protestants rebelled against the Catholic Church, they rebelled against Christ.  And today, when they reject the Eucharist, they make themselves the enemies of God.

Hebrews 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.  26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,  27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.  28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:  29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?  30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.  31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Hello De Maria,
Your argument does not hold water when Roman Catholicism is viewed from the perspective of it being a gradual historical development (and rightly so, I add). Your church has in fact contradicted the written Word of God.

That perspective is wrong.  Jesus Christ established the Catholic Church when He said:

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.  19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

While Scripture does indeed condemn acts of rebellion (1 Samuel 15:23), it is not rebellion to stand up against ungodly and unlawful governments. An unjust authority is no authority at all.

But Jesus Christ condemns any who disobey His Church:

Matthew 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Using your logic, the American Revolutionary War never should have happened. Using your logic, it would have been wrong for the apostles to speak against the Jewish Sanhedrin when it told them to stop preaching Christ in Acts 5. 

On the contrary, the King of England was not God.  While it is God who died upon the Cross to bring an end to Judaism and establish the New Testament Church.

The authority claims of the Roman Catholic Church are self-proclaimed and unbiblical.

Wrong.  The Catholic Church was established by Jesus Christ and all who rebel against her, rebel against the Lord of Heaven and earth who established her and continues to speak through her to this day:

Luke 10:16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

God is the authority over the Catholic Church.

De Maria March 30th, 2013 10:06 pm :

Hi Jonathan,

I’m responding to your comment #97.

I left out most of the discussion and only addressed the point of authority because the rest seemed to be about ad hominems. I didn’t see any point in entering that part of the discussion. Perhaps you and I can come to a better understanding.

You said on
March 9th, 2013 3:27 am 

I must admit, I on’t think I could have possibly asked for a better response to my posts….. We’re talking about what is the ultimate standard, and as such, there can only possibly be circular reasoning on the issue! I will freely admit that I start with God and his word as my foundation, and I end with God and his word as my foundation. Completely circular, and happily accepted as such.

I’ll have to challenge you on two points you made there.

1. That appealing to an ultimate standard must be by way of circular reasoning.

There is more than one way to appeal to an ultimate authority.

a. The Protestant methodology is circular. It is me and my Bible. If a Protestant is asked a question, the answer is invariably, “The Bible tells me so.”

b. Whereas Catholic methodology is many and varied. It can be circular, inductive or deductive, depending upon the situation.

i. Circular reasoning is not necessarily wrong. It is simply not persuasive when it is the only type of reasoning employed.
ii. Inductive reasoning is reasoning from the specific to the general.
iii. While deductive reasoning is reasoning from the general to the specific.

The Catholic methodology is more robust and persuasive than the Protestant methodology because we don’t rely upon Scripture alone. But upon Sacred Tradition, Scripture and Magisterium.

So, to contrast the Catholic situation with the Protestant. A Protestant will say, “the Bible tells me so.” Whereas a Catholic will say, “The Bible tells me so and that is confirmed in Sacred Tradition and in the Teaching of the Church (Magisterium). In addition, the Catholic methodology also admits historical and archaeological evidence. In fact, all branches of science are admissible in the Catholic court.

2. That you begin with God and his word as your foundation, and end with God and his word as your foundation.

In practice, you don’t. You begin with your own understanding and end with your own understanding as your foundation. That is why Protestants accuse Catholics of checking their brain at the door of the Catholic Church.

Let’s compare the Protestant and Catholic methodology again.

Say two Christians have a dispute upon what it says in Scripture. If they are Protestant, they debate. If neither is persuaded by the other, they simply go their way.

If two Catholics dispute about Scripture, they go to the Church for an authoritative decision. The Church tells them which is right and which is wrong. This is confirmed historically. See the debates between St. Athanasius vs Arius; and St. Augustine vs the Pelagians.

You also said:

As I mentioned last time, the Roman Catholic Church states that it’s ultimate authority is God. But in actuality, it is not God, but the Roman Catholic Church itself. So I’m starting to see that this is what I need to show my Roman Catholic friend – the Roman Catholic Church makes a subtle authority swap and slips itself into the place of God as the ultimate authority. Hopefully, he’ll be able to see it, and hopefully some of your comments here will help him. They really are quite good at exposing the ultimacy of the Roman Catholic Church in its own beliefs.

I’ll have to dispute that one also.

The authority over the Catholic Church is God. Jesus Christ established the Catholic Church and Jesus Christ is God. And it is Jesus Christ who empowered the Catholic Church to be the authority over His flock.

This is based upon the principle established by Jesus Christ:
Luke 10:16
King James Version (KJV)
16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

Jesus Christ was sent by the Father:
John 20:21-23
King James Version (KJV)
21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me,…

And He sent the Church:
… even so send I you.

Again, Jesus was sent by the Father:
Matthew 28:18-20
King James Version (KJV)
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

And He sent the Church.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

And that Church is the Catholic Church.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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Jesus Christ established the first CORPORATION. He established a Church (Matt 16:18). Appointed a Leader (John 21:17). 
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The Church is God's government

SK:That verse was talking about taxes for the goverment. We are talking about catholics not paying their taxes to the catholic church so the catholic church is withholding salvation from the catholics that don't pay until they do.

²¹ They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Shouldn't you be asking yourself whether the decree is according to Scripture?

SK:For your church's sake, I hope they do too. But you gota admit that takes a lot of gall.

Following the Word of God takes a lot of courage. Especially with Protestants always singing a dirge:
Matthew 11:16-20

King James Version (KJV)
¹⁶ But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,
¹⁷ And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.
¹⁸ For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.
¹⁹ The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
²⁰ Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not: 

I never knew this about churches in Germany. Protestant churches are mentioned also, but it seems the catholic church is really crying out.

http://news.yahoo.com/german-group-s...180251559.html

Here's a snippet, read the rest yourselves.

BERLIN (AP) — A Catholic reform group in Germany criticized the country's bishops Monday for declaring that believers who refuse to pay religious taxes won't be able to receive the sacrament, become godparents or work in church institutions.

Well from what I read, the protestants are not complaining. Its only the catholic bishop. Thats what the news says. I don't see you taking this stance when its something protestant in the news. By the standards of catholics, that news wpuld be true and correct and might as well be gospel truth.

Shouldn't you be asking yourself whether the decree is according to Scripture? What the complainers whine about is besides the point. The fact is that the Bishops are acting according to Christ's word:
Matthew 22:16-22

King James Version (KJV)
¹⁶ And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the person of men.
¹⁷ Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?
¹⁸ But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?
¹⁹ Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.
²⁰ And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?
²¹ They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.
²² When they had heard these words, they marvelled, and left him, and went their way.

Therefore why are you pretending that the Catholic Church is doing something wrong?

Sincerely,

De Maria

The answer is, that Scripture doesn't. That is the role of the Church.

De Maria said...

Hi Dan,

you said,

Godismyjudge said...
De Maria,

I was being a bit informal about defining sola scriptura, but here's a more thorough definition:

I believe the Scriptures as originally given by God, both Old and New Testaments, to be the inspired Word of God, infallible, entirely trustworthy

That is Catholic Teaching.

, and the supreme authority in all matters of faith and conduct.

How do you mean? Let me give you an example. Say that a fellow reads Rom 6:1 and decides we should sin mightily that grace may abound the more. I have met some who believe this, so its not a far stretch of the imagination. How does Scripture stop them from misinterpreting the message they find in Scripture?

As a Catholic, I'm allowed to read the wise teachings of any man. Here's what a Pagan wrote about the written word before the time of Christ:

Socrates Writing, Phaedrus, has this strange quality, and is very like painting; for the creatures of painting stand like living beings, but if one asks them a question, they preserve a solemn silence. And so it is with written words; you might think they spoke as if they had intelligence, but if you question them, wishing to know about their sayings, they always say only one and the same thing.....

Therefore, the question remains, how does Holy Scripture explain itself to anyone who does not understand it?

The answer is, that it doesn't. That is the role of the Church. Jesus Christ established the Church to pass what He commanded and to explain that. That includes what has been written in the Scriptures.

Therefore I do not consider human writings, councils, decrees or official decisions as above or equal to Scripture, 

The Scriptures are human writings. They are human writings inspired by God. And we believe certain councils, decrees and official decisions are also inspired by God to remain free from error. God did not abandon us after He inspired the Holy Scriptures to be written. He is very much alive affecting our decisions and guiding us to this very day and forever.

but they must be examined and assessed based on Scripture.

That is partially Catholic Teaching. We compare everything to Tradition, Scripture and Magisterium.

The Scriptures clearly and completely reveal all things needed for salvation,

That contradicts Scripture itself 2 Peter 3:15-16.

such that whatever is not proven by Scriptures is not to be required of anyone as necessary for salvation.

Good point. Now, is Sola Scriptura necessary for salvation? If so, prove it to me from Scripture.

If not, why do Protestants make such a fuss about it that they endanger their salvation by rebelling against the Church for it?

I can't help but notice that the bulk of your response is predicated on the idea that the Church does not error in doctrine. But then you qualify that with Popes and councils in very specific circumstances. So most of the time, Popes and councils can error, right?

That is correct. Popes are infallible when they teach the Church from the chair of Peter. Councils are infallible when they are ecumenical, teaching in union with the Pope, the entire Church.

Let's take a practical example where the rubber hits the road.

Let's do it.

Could the Church be wrong in its teaching on contraception? 

No. But you probably thinks it can be wrong, so please elaborate.

Here are question for you. If you believe that Scripture is infallible and authoritative, is there a church in existence which you consider the "pillar of truth"? And which is it?

Thanks for the polite conversation. I will try to post more later.

Great!

In a follow up, you said:

Following up on your comments on Church authority, I do follow whatever my pastor says as far as running the church. 

That is not exactly being obedient to the Word of God. Here again, is what Scripture says:
Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Perhaps you notice how closely that resembles what Catholics do when they submit to the authority of the Priest in confession.

Note how that says that the ruler is responsible over your soul to the extent he must give an account. And there is no wishy washiness about when to obey. It simply says submit and obey.

Is there someone in your church to whom you submit whom you consider to be responsible for your soul?

But what he doesn't do is introduce new doctrines not taught in scripture. 

But, he advances the errors introduced by the Reformers. Those errors are not taught in Scripture and blatantly contradict Scripture.

Sola Scriptura for instance, teaches to hold Scripture alone. Yet Scripture says hold the Traditions (2 Thess 2:15).

If he did, I would be leary, but would hear him out and consider what he said. Of course, if he contradicted scripture, we are to obey God rather than men. 

He does contradict Scripture.

As for Luther, he had reason to doubt that those that were calling themselves "the Church" were in fact "the Church". The Medici popes were apostate.

In my opinion, anyone who doubts the Church, doubts Christ who built the Church:
Luke 10:16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

God be with you,
Dan 

And also with you,

Sincerely,

De Maria

Provide proof of this statement or admit that it is a blatant lie.

DE MARIA February 10, 2015 at 3:16 pm

ROBERT February 10, 2015 at 2:22 pm

Well, considering that Rome says both pro-abortionists and antiabortionists are good faithful RCs entitled to the Eucharist, it doesn’t look like the CHURCH is doing its job…..

You’re lying, again, Robert. Do not proceed any further until you provide proof of this statement or admit that it is a blatant lie.

Note:  He ignored my response, altogether.

Within Catholicism we have Theological disagreement which can be resolved by Church authority

DE MARIA February 10, 2015 at 1:47 pm

ROBERT February 10, 2015 at 1:42 pmThat’s demonstrably and historically false. Luther wanted to reform the church. And got the bum’s rush.
Rome can perhaps use this criticism when it can start disciplining either the liberals or conservatives. There is rampant theological disagreement in your communion. Far more than there is between me as a Presbyterian and Michael who is a Reformed Baptist. Yeah, our church doesn’t have the same visible home office. Having the same visible home office isn’t helping you guys stay together.

Lol! THAT is demonstrably false.

Theological disagreement is totally different than Theological revolt. That is the difference between Catholics and Protestants.

Within Catholicism we have Theological disagreement which can be resolved by Church authority. Within Protestantism you have Theological revolt and disarray which is resolved only when one party leaves and establishes his own flavor of religion.