Galatians 6:6-8
King James Version (KJV)
6Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.
7Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
If this is true, how does it fit in with the faith alone theology?
Sincerely,
De Maria
Hello De Maria,
ReplyDeletePlease explain your last sentence.
The biblical concept of "sowing and reaping" in no way contradicts "Sola Fide" (Faith Alone), if that's what you're trying to say.
If you are suggesting that "Faith Alone" believers don't do works, then you are seriously misrepresenting that teaching.
Hi Russell,
DeleteYou asked,
Hello De Maria,
Please explain your last sentence.
Do you mean my question?
The biblical concept of "sowing and reaping" in no way contradicts "Sola Fide" (Faith Alone), if that's what you're trying to say.
Sowing means working. Reaping means receiving. If we reap what we sow that means we are rewarded for our works. So, yes, it does contradict the doctrine of faith alone.
If you are suggesting that "Faith Alone" believers don't do works, then you are seriously misrepresenting that teaching.
I wasn't suggesting anything Russell. I asked a question. My question is very simple. How does this verse fit into faith alone theology?
Can you explain?
Sincerely,
De Maria
De Maria,
ReplyDeleteSorry for the delay.
Yes, I was talking about your question. A person getting rewards (after his entrance into Heaven) for his works here on earth does not mean that he earned his justification, or that he contributed toward it with any works. We only get that (justification) by faith. But “Sola Fide” does not mean that God won’t reward us for the works that we do, and “Sola Fide” does not mean that we are to avoid or hate good works. As I said many times, God WANTS Christians to do good works, and He wants us to do them so that He can bless us with rewards, accordingly.
Obtaining justification / salvation and obtaining rewards are two different things. The first is a free gift from God. The latter is according to our works here, to determine our “status” (for lack of a better term) in Heaven.
Hope this clears up any misunderstanding.
De Maria, Sorry for the delay.
DeleteHi Russell, no problem.
Yes, I was talking about your question.
Ok.
A person getting rewards (after his entrance into Heaven) for his works here on earth does not mean that he earned his justification, or that he contributed toward it with any works.
I still don't see the connection. Where is that verse speaking of rewards AFTER entrance into heaven.
Here, lets go through it together.
Galatians 6:6-8
King James Version (KJV)
6Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.
If you read the previous 5 verses, this is a reference to Confession. St. Paul is saying, if you have sinned, you need to go to the Priest and confess your sin. But this has nothing to do with this discussion. I merely point it out because I had previously posted it.
7Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Here St. Paul states the overall adage. In more common language, our actions will result in consequences. If we do good, good will come of it. If we do evil, evil will come of it.
8For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Now, St. Paul is more specific and explains what he has said in verse 7.
He that soweth to his flesh. To me, that means the one that acts selfishly.
shall reap corruption. To me, that means that individual will be condemned to "rot" in hell.
but he that soweth to the Spirit. The Spirit, in this case, is a reference to the Law of the Spirit. Which is the Law of Love and therefore this is a person who acts with love towards his neighbors.
reap life everlasting. To me, "live everlasting" means heaven. Not rewards in heaven. But heaven. Thrones and crowns are rewards in heaven. See Rev 12:1 where the Virgin Mary is crowned. She is already in heaven and we believe she is crowned the Queen of Heaven in that stanza.
so, I don't see how you can turn that verse to mean, "rewards in heaven."
We only get that (justification) by faith.
But not by faith alone. At least, not if you want to be in accordance with Scripture:
James 2:24
King James Version (KJV)
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
But “Sola Fide” does not mean that God won’t reward us for the works that we do, and “Sola Fide” does not mean that we are to avoid or hate good works. As I said many times, God WANTS Christians to do good works, and He wants us to do them so that He can bless us with rewards, accordingly.
1. The Catholic Church accepts that we will receive rewards in heaven. So no problem there.
2. However, Scripture no where says that we are justified by faith alone. But, in fact, contradicts that teaching.
Obtaining justification / salvation and obtaining rewards are two different things. The first is a free gift from God. The latter is according to our works here, to determine our “status” (for lack of a better term) in Heaven.
Show me your understanding of the verse. Walk me through it. Because it seems that you are forcing your belief into the text. The text clearly says something else. And if you read Matt 25:31-46, you see the Catholic understanding confirmed. And yours again contradicted.
So, show me.
Hope this clears up any misunderstanding.
Me too.
Sincerely,
De Maria
De Maria,
ReplyDeleteIn essence, you said in your article, “You reap what you sow, whether good or bad… therefore, ‘Faith Alone’ can’t be true.”
I may be wrong, but my first impression when I read the article was that you seemed to be saying, “Protestants don’t believe good works save, so they never do good works.” That’s the only reason I responded to this article. My apologies if this is not what you were saying.
In His Name,
Russell
Russell,
DeleteNo need to apologize to me.
I asked the question and frequently come back to this topic because I have heard it said that:
"justification by faith alone is the doctrine upon which the Reformation stands or falls".
There is no question in my mind that this verse is about justification by works. Not by faith alone. Not by "sola Fide".
Further, that a proper understanding of this verse precludes and renders invalid the doctrine of Sola Fide or Faith alone.
And yet, it seems to make no difference to people who believe in Sola Fide. To them, it doesn't seem to matter what Scripture says. They will hold this doctrine come hell or high water with seemingly, no rhyme nor reason.
And so, my question remains. How does faith alone fit into the Biblical Teaching that we reap as we sow?
Sincerely,
De Maria
De Maria,
ReplyDeleteYes, the role of works in one’s life is indeed an important topic. And probably the most important question of all is, “What must I do to be saved / justified?”
First of all, Scripture clearly tells us that we are saved by grace, through the medium of faith, and not through our works (Ephesians 2:8-10). Salvation is a GIFT, otherwise we would go around boasting about our works, and about how we “earned” salvation. God knows that that’s just the nature of man and that’s why He made FAITH (in Jesus' work on the cross) the basis of our salvation.
Second, the context of Galatians 6:6-8 is not about “how to become saved / justified.” It is about how a Christian is supposed to be acting. It is about what kind of conduct is expected from true believers. It answers the question, “How should a Christian live?” The same is true for the context of Matthew 25:31-46 and James 2:24, which you mentioned, but neither of these contexts is specifically about “how to get saved / justified.”
You asked how “faith alone” fits into the biblical teaching of sowing and reaping. Simple, we are saved by faith (apart from the merit of works). And if one is truly saved, his faith will motivate him to do good works. He will now have a sincere desire to do things pleasing to God. But those works won’t be the CAUSE of him getting to Heaven, but rather, they are the RESULT of a true salvation.
De Maria, you may feel that there is "no rhyme nor reason" for believing the doctrine of "Faith Alone," but I would assert that, properly understood, it is indeed a biblical concept.
Hi Russell,
DeleteYou said,
Yes, the role of works in one’s life is indeed an important topic. And probably the most important question of all is, “What must I do to be saved / justified?”
Ok.
First of all, Scripture clearly tells us that we are saved by grace, through the medium of faith, and not through our works (Ephesians 2:8-10).
But not through "faith alone" as is clearly stated in another Scripture.
James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Rom 2:13 ....DOERS of the law are justified.
By God.
This is the Catholic Teaching. This is the Teaching of Scripture.
If you want God to save you, do good in this life. Because God only saves those who do good.
Salvation is a GIFT, otherwise we would go around boasting about our works, and about how we “earned” salvation.
Catholics don't boast about saving themselves.
Protestants BOAST how they have saved themselves by their faith alone.
God knows that that’s just the nature of man and that’s why He made FAITH (in Jesus' work on the cross) the basis of our salvation.
The basis of our salvation is a faith proven by obedience to His Word:
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Faith alone is dead:
James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Second, the context of Galatians 6:6-8 is not about “how to become saved / justified.” It is about how a Christian is supposed to be acting. It is about what kind of conduct is expected from true believers. It answers the question, “How should a Christian live?” The same is true for the context of Matthew 25:31-46 and James 2:24, which you mentioned, but neither of these contexts is specifically about “how to get saved / justified.”
Yes, they all are about how to be saved. I have already walked you through Gal 6. But I will repeat the key phrase therein:
8For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
That seems abundantly clear. He that sows to the Spirit will reap life everlasting.
Matt 25 also speak clearly.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Inherit the Kingdom because when I was hungry, you gave me meat, etc. etc.
And James 2:24 is abundandly clear.
James 2:24
King James Version (KJV)
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
It is a complete contradiction of the doctrine of faith alone.
You asked how “faith alone” fits into the biblical teaching of sowing and reaping. Simple, we are saved by faith (apart from the merit of works).
Walk me through it. Where does it say that? It says the complete opposite.
And if one is truly saved, his faith will motivate him to do good works. He will now have a sincere desire to do things pleasing to God. But those works won’t be the CAUSE of him getting to Heaven, but rather, they are the RESULT of a true salvation.
Good works are the result of faith. God saves those who by faith produce good works. Nowhere does Scripture say that good works are the product of salvation.
De Maria, you may feel that there is "no rhyme nor reason" for believing the doctrine of "Faith Alone," but I would assert that, properly understood, it is indeed a biblical concept.
Scripture says, "not saved by faith only".
You say, "saved by faith alone."
Whom should I believe?
Sincerely,
De Maria
Hi De Maria,
ReplyDeleteI gave you Ephesians 2:8-10 and pointed out that salvation is not of works, and you said, “But not through ‘faith alone’ as is clearly stated in another Scripture.”
But before moving to another verse and another context, let’s deal with THIS verse’s meaning. Please tell me, what does “not of works” mean in this verse? Is it not speaking of salvation?
You mentioned Romans 2:13, “…the doers of the law will be justified.” This verse is dealt with in depth on my blog. You can find the article here:
http://answeringcatholicclaims.blogspot.com/2012/09/romans-213-and-context.html
I had said that salvation is a GIFT, because if it weren’t, we would boast about how we earned our salvation, and you said:
“Catholics don't boast about saving themselves… Protestants BOAST how they have saved themselves by their faith alone.”
De Maria, there are both Catholics and Protestants who will boast about “earning” their salvation. But anyone who does is deluded. No one has any room to boast. Nor should anyone boast in “faith alone,” since “Sola Fide” means trusting only in the work of Jesus on the cross for salvation, rather than adding any of his own works. “Faith alone” is not a cause for boasting, it is a SURRENDER. It entails ceasing to try to work one’s way into Heaven. It is a humble admission of our weakness, an acknowledgement that the suffering of Jesus on the cross was more than enough to pay for our sins, and that He doesn’t need our “help.”
You also mentioned Hebrews 5:9, James 2:17 and 2:24, Matthew 25, and Galatians 6 (again), and you said (or at least implied) that these are all about “how to be saved.”
But that is NOT the context of ANY of these.
For example, let’s look at Matthew 25:31-46. Let me ask you, are the good works mentioned in this passage used in a “specific” sense, or in a “general” sense? Are they PRE-scriptive or are they DE-scriptive. In other words, are they a “prescription” on what to do to be saved, or are they simply “descriptive” of the type of things a Christian does? The answer is that these works are simply descriptive of the things that true believers do. It is not a list of things to do to BECOME saved, otherwise, where is baptism, and where are the sacraments in this list?
You said:
“Good works are the result of faith. God saves those who by faith produce good works. Nowhere does Scripture say that good works are the product of salvation.”
But you contradict yourself. First, you say that “good works are the result of faith,” and then you say that Scripture doesn’t say that “good works are the product of salvation.” “Result”… “product”… same thing. The fact is that good works ARE a result and a product of salvation. But to find the CAUSE of salvation, you need to find a passage whose context is speaking of “how to be saved / justified.” You haven’t pointed to one yet. This doesn’t help your “faith plus works” argument.
Hi De Maria,
DeleteHi Russell,
I gave you Ephesians 2:8-10 and pointed out that salvation is not of works,
First, I never said that salvation is of works. So why did you point that out? Are you making straw men that you can knock down?
But let us walk through Ephesians 2:8-10 and see what it is actually saying:
Ephesians 2:8-10
King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved
It is by God's grace that we are saved. We do not save ourselves. God saves us.
through faith;
We are saved through faith, not by faith. We are saved through faith because it is the faithful who are saved by God.
But who are the faithful? Are they those who cry out, "I am saved because I am faithful!" Or is it those who do the good works which God has commanded? Let's see if Scripture has the answer:
James 2:14
King James Version (KJV)
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Galatians 5:6
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Romans 2:13
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
According to Scripture then, the faith through which one is saved, is accompanied by works. Claiming to have faith is not enough.
and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Everything good is of God. Therefore the faith which saves is a gift of God. And the works which accompany a saving faith are also from God:
Philippians 2:11-13
King James Version (KJV)
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. 12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
cont'd
cont'd
Delete9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
A man can neither claim to be saved because of his faith. Nor claim to be saved because of his works. God alone knows whether we are saved:
1 Corinthians 4:2-4
King James Version (KJV)
2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful. 3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. 4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
We are His workmanship. Remember that we were all made by God through Christ:
John 1:3
King James Version (KJV)
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Therefore, when we were conceived in the womb, we were made by God through Jesus Christ.
And we know this is the meaning of this verse because we were made to walk in His Commandments. The works which He ordained from the beginning. These works are the natural law which is in every man's heart.
and you said, “But not through ‘faith alone’ as is clearly stated in another Scripture.”
Exactly.
But before moving to another verse and another context, let’s deal with THIS verse’s meaning. Please tell me, what does “not of works” mean in this verse? Is it not speaking of salvation?
I hope that has been satisfiactorily answered above. I have at least dealt with the verse, whereas you have simply given opinions which contradict the verses which I provided and even those which you provided.
You mentioned Romans 2:13, “…the doers of the law will be justified.” This verse is dealt with in depth on my blog. You can find the article here:
http://answeringcatholicclaims.blogspot.com/2012/09/romans-213-and-context.html
I'll be there soon. But there is very little to deal with. The Scripture is explicit. Those who are just in God's eyes, do the works of God.
I had said that salvation is a GIFT, because if it weren’t, we would boast about how we earned our salvation, and you said:
“Catholics don't boast about saving themselves… Protestants BOAST how they have saved themselves by their faith alone.”
That is absolutely true. We are not the ones who sit on street corners bugging people with the question, "Are you saved?"
De Maria, there are both Catholics and Protestants who will boast about “earning” their salvation.
I've not met even one Catholic who does so. But every single Protestant who I know boasts about being saved.
But anyone who does is deluded.
I agree.
cont'd
cont'd
DeleteNo one has any room to boast. Nor should anyone boast in “faith alone,” since “Sola Fide” means trusting only in the work of Jesus on the cross for salvation, rather than adding any of his own works. “Faith alone” is not a cause for boasting, it is a SURRENDER. It entails ceasing to try to work one’s way into Heaven. It is a humble admission of our weakness, an acknowledgement that the suffering of Jesus on the cross was more than enough to pay for our sins, and that He doesn’t need our “help.”
It all sounds very pretty. But it is only a justification to do what you want rather than doing God's will. God wants you to prove your faith in works:
James 2:18
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
In order to be saved, you must keep the works which God has ordained from the beginning. Those works are the Ten Commandments:
Revelation 22:14-15
King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
You also mentioned Hebrews 5:9, James 2:17 and 2:24, Matthew 25, and Galatians 6 (again), and you said (or at least implied) that these are all about “how to be saved.”
Exactly. They are all about faith and works.
But that is NOT the context of ANY of these.
It is the context of each of them.
For example, let’s look at Matthew 25:31-46. Let me ask you, are the good works mentioned in this passage used in a “specific” sense, or in a “general” sense? Are they PRE-scriptive or are they DE-scriptive. In other words, are they a “prescription” on what to do to be saved, or are they simply “descriptive” of the type of things a Christian does?
They are both. They are prescriptive and descriptive. They describe what God prescribed in order for one to be saved. And that prescription is described everywhere in Scripture.
Matthew 7:21
King James Version (KJV)
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
cont'd
cont'd
DeleteThe answer is that these works are simply descriptive of the things that true believers do. It is not a list of things to do to BECOME saved, otherwise, where is baptism, and where are the sacraments in this list?
1. Baptism and the Sactaments are what Christians need to do.
2. But the Ten Commandments are what all people, Christian or not, need to do in order for God to judge them righteous in the endtimes:
cts 10:33-35
King James Version (KJV)
33 Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God. 34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
You said:
“Good works are the result of faith. God saves those who by faith produce good works. Nowhere does Scripture say that good works are the product of salvation.”
Absolutely. Yes I said it.
But you contradict yourself. First, you say that “good works are the result of faith,” and then you say that Scripture doesn’t say that “good works are the product of salvation.” “Result”… “product”… same thing. The fact is that good works ARE a result and a product of salvation. But to find the
Faith and salvation are not the same thing.
Good deeds are the product of faith in God. God saves those who by faith produced good works. No where does Scripture say that God saves people first and then they produce good works.
CAUSE of salvation, you need to find a passage whose context is speaking of “how to be saved / justified.” You haven’t pointed to one yet. This doesn’t help your “faith plus works” argument.
Russell, I have provided dozens of Scriptures which describe and prescribe faith and works for salvation.
You have provided none which claim that faith is synonymous with salvation. And you have done your best to change the subject of this discussion. Which is, "how does reaping what you sow fit the faith alone theology?"
Sincerely,
De Maria
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteRussell,
ReplyDeleteI've responded to your article about Romans 2:13 and context, here.
Sincerely,
De Maria
De Maria,
ReplyDeleteAfter I pointed out that salvation is not of works by quoting Ephesians 2:8-10, you said:
“First, I never said that salvation is of works. So why did you point that out? Are you making straw men that you can knock down?”
There is no straw man here. Previously, you were speaking of sowing and reaping (Galatians 6), and you said:
“There is no question in my mind that this verse is about JUSTIFICATION BY WORKS” [Emphasis mine]
You also said earlier that “sowing means working,” and you equated the subsequent “reaping” with eternal life. You then said:
“’live everlasting’ means heaven. Not rewards in heaven. But heaven.”
Thus, you’re saying that salvation (life everlasting) is brought about by the “sowing” of good works.
Are you denying that you said this?
You said:
“We are saved through faith, not by faith.”
You’re splitting hairs. Yes, we are actually saved “by” the work of Jesus on the cross, but this is applied to our lives “through faith,” and NOT through the medium of works.
You said:
“We are saved through faith because it is the faithful who are saved by God.”
Yes, it is indeed the faithful who are saved by God. But why the faithful? It is because of their FAITH, in the first place. Salvation is NOT based on the “performance” of the faithful, but it’s based on the state of their heart, their believing / trusting in Jesus. And once again, you used the same Scripture verses that you used before (James 2, Galatians 6, Romans 2), but (I repeat) these have the wrong context to prove your point. By the way, you are correct when you say that just “claiming” to have faith is not enough. But that was never my point to start with.
You said:
“It all sounds very pretty. But it is only a justification to do what you want rather than doing God's will. God wants you to prove your faith in works:”
De Maria, you’re preaching to the choir. That is what Protestants believe. I have never denied that God wants us to prove our faith in good works. I’m sorry, but *YOURS* is the straw man argument here.
I accused you of using verses with the wrong context, and said that none of these passages were about “how to be saved,” and you said:
“Exactly. They are all about faith and works.”
Nice try. There is a difference between “all about faith and works” and “how to be saved.” Again, these verses are not telling us how to get saved. You need to look elsewhere to try and prove “faith plus works” will save.
You said:
“You have provided none which claim that faith is synonymous with salvation.”
I never said that faith is synonymous with salvation. I said that faith CAUSES salvation. And true salvation causes a desire to do good works.
You said:
“And you have done your best to change the subject of this discussion. Which is, ‘how does reaping what you sow fit the faith alone theology?’”
I’m not trying to change the subject. I was simply trying to show the biblical relationship between faith, works and salvation – faith being the only way to apply salvation to our lives.
When it comes to salvation, “sowing” does not mean “earning.”
RussellDecember 9, 2012 9:20 PM
DeleteDe Maria,
After I pointed out that salvation is not of works by quoting Ephesians 2:8-10, you said:
“First, I never said that salvation is of works. So why did you point that out?
1. Because Scripture says:
James 2:24
King James Version (KJV)
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
2. Because there is no mention of the word "faith" in Gal 6:8. Only of sowing. And sowing is work.
Are you making straw men that you can knock down?”
There is no straw man here. Previously, you were speaking of sowing and reaping (Galatians 6), and you said:
“There is no question in my mind that this verse is about JUSTIFICATION BY WORKS” [Emphasis mine]
Quote the whole thing. Not just a partial thing that again, makes a straw man that you can knock down. Here is the whole sentence and point I made. And a comparison to Scripture:
Here's what I actually said:
There is no question in my mind that this verse is about justification by works. Not by faith alone. Not by "sola Fide".
Here's the Scripture:
James 2:24
King James Version (KJV)
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
You also said earlier that “sowing means working,” and you equated the subsequent “reaping” with eternal life. You then said:
“’live everlasting’ means heaven. Not rewards in heaven. But heaven.”
Thus, you’re saying that salvation (life everlasting) is brought about by the “sowing” of good works.
That is precisely true.
Are you denying that you said this?
Nope.
You said:
“We are saved through faith, not by faith.”
You’re splitting hairs. Yes, we are actually saved “by” the work of Jesus on the cross,
Not in question.
but this is applied to our lives “through faith,”
and the Sacraments.
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
and NOT through the medium of works.
You are wrong. Without works, faith is not recognized.
Faith is credited to one who works.
Romans 4:19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb: 20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Read that carefully. It is the part of Rom 4 which you guys usually ignore.
Father Abraham was over a hundred years old at this time and Sarah nearly the same age. Yet, in order for them to conceive a child, they had to unite themselves as man and wife in the marriage bed. They had to ACT UPON THEIR FAITH.
They didn't sit back and say, "Ok, God, but we're too old for that."
You said:
“We are saved through faith because it is the faithful who are saved by God.”
Absolutely.
Yes, it is indeed the faithful who are saved by God. But why the faithful? It is because of their FAITH, in the first place. Salvation is NOT based on the “performance” of the faithful,
Yes, it is:
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
but it’s based on the state of their heart, their believing / trusting in Jesus.
God waits for a man to perform before He credits to him righteousness:
James 2:21-22
King James Version (KJV)
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
cont'd
cont'd
DeleteAnd once again, you used the same Scripture verses that you used before (James 2, Galatians 6, Romans 2), but (I repeat) these have the wrong context to prove your point.
They have the precisely the same context to prove my point.
By the way, you are correct when you say that just “claiming” to have faith is not enough. But that was never my point to start with.
It should have been. Because that is precisely what all these verses are about. Claiming to have faith and denying or rejecting the good deeds which God commanded from the beginning is a formula for condemnation. That is precisely what the Scriptures teach.
You said:
“It all sounds very pretty. But it is only a justification to do what you want rather than doing God's will. God wants you to prove your faith in works:”
De Maria, you’re preaching to the choir. That is what Protestants believe.
If that were true, neither Luther nor any of the others would have left the Catholic Church. Because that is what the Catholic Church teaches. But they left, proving that they teach something opposed to the Catholic Church.
And it is Luther who said, "justification by faith alone is the doctrine upon which the Reformation stands or falls." Is he not?
I have never denied that God wants us to prove our faith in good works. I’m sorry, but *YOURS* is the straw man argument here.
I accused you of using verses with the wrong context, and said that none of these passages were about “how to be saved,” and you said:
“Exactly. They are all about faith and works.”
Correct.
Nice try. There is a difference between “all about faith and works” and “how to be saved.”
No, there isn't.
Again, these verses are not telling us how to get saved. You need to look elsewhere to try and prove “faith plus works” will save.
Nope. These verses all prove the efficacy of faith and works towards salvation.
You said:
“You have provided none which claim that faith is synonymous with salvation.”
I never said that faith is synonymous with salvation. I said that faith CAUSES salvation. And true salvation causes a desire to do good works.
Thanks for clearing that up. Now, walk through the verses provided. Because they invert your sequence. They show a man who has faith, working, doing good deeds and being rewarded with eternal life.
You said:
“And you have done your best to change the subject of this discussion. Which is, ‘how does reaping what you sow fit the faith alone theology?’”
I’m not trying to change the subject. I was simply trying to show the biblical relationship between faith, works and salvation – faith being the only way to apply salvation to our lives.
I see that you are sincere in this opinion. So, I keep comparing your opinion to Scripture. You say works are unnecessary for being saved. Scripture says works are required.
Romans 2:6-7
King James Version (KJV)
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
When it comes to salvation, “sowing” does not mean “earning.”
When it comes to salvation, "sowing" means "doing the works of the law":
Romans 2:13
King James Version (KJV)
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Sincerely,
De Maria
De Maria,
ReplyDeleteThis is going nowhere, and accusations of straw man arguments keep coming up.
Maybe we are talking past each other, but I feel that you’re not honestly listening to what I have said, and perhaps you feel the same toward me. But you have contradicted yourself a number of times and seem to have some real trouble with context.
There is much more evidence for Sola Fide that I could bring up, but I think that we are not being productive, now, but are just arguing. Let’s not waste each other’s time. This will be my last comment here.
I'm sorry you feel that way Russell, but I have asked you to walk me through each of those verses to explain your interpretation of them.
DeleteBut you won't do it. The reason is clear. You want me to believe your opinion in spite of the actual words of the Scripture.
It is clear that sowing and reaping is about justification by works and not by faith alone. And no, you can't bring up any evidence for Sola Fide from Scripture, because Scripture directly contradicts that false doctrine.
Anyway, keep searching the Scriptures. They will bring you back to the Catholic Church.
God bless you,
Sincerely,
De Maria
Hello De Maria,
ReplyDeleteI will only respond to your final comment, which I believe sums up your thoughts. I find this comment very revealing, because it strongly suggests that something is wrong / deficient with your relationship with God.
I had said in my article:
“As we have said before on this blog, good works are certainly God’s will for us and we should be doing them. We will get rewards for our good works (which are done in the right spirit) when we get to Heaven. But we do them out of love and gratitude toward God… we don’t do them to be saved. We are only saved by faith / trusting in the work of Jesus Christ on the cross, and ONLY that work.”
And your direct response to that was:
“It doesn't matter whether you do them to be saved or not. But if you don't do them you won't be saved.”
In other words, you’re implying that it doesn’t matter what’s in your HEART, i.e., whether you do works to be saved or not, or whether they are done simply out of gratitude and love for God… just as long as you do the works. But if it doesn’t matter *WHY* you’re doing them, then you’re simply engaging in DEAD works.
This suggests that your concept of serving God is more about following a formula, or set of laws, rather than having an actual relationship with Him.
De Maria, I’m not claiming to know exactly what’s in your heart. But your remarks above do reveal a serious problem with the mindset of many, if not most, Catholics: It is a mindset that is trapped in the bondage of a works-based salvation.
But the fact is that it DOES matter if you do works to get saved or not. Because one who adds his good works to the cross, with the intention of somehow “contributing to” his salvation, is now severed from Christ and has fallen from grace. (Galatians 5:4)
Hello De Maria,
DeleteHi Russell,
I will only respond to your final comment, which I believe sums up your thoughts. I find this comment very revealing, because it strongly suggests that something is wrong / deficient with your relationship with God.
It is Protestant theology which preaches a deficient relationship with God.
….In other words, you’re implying that it doesn’t matter what’s in your HEART, i.e., whether you do works to be saved or not, or whether they are done simply out of gratitude and love for God… just as long as you do the works. But if it doesn’t matter *WHY* you’re doing them, then you’re simply engaging in DEAD works.
First. Dead works are equivalent to sins. Let me show you.
Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
We repent from sins. Therefore, dead works are sins. And sins are transgressions of the law. That is the definition of sin:
1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Second: Good deeds are deeds which are done as a product of faith. That is why Scripture says:
Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Therefore, it doesn't matter if a man does a good deed because he has faith that God will save him as a result. Or if he does it simply because he loves God. In both cases, the good works are products of that man's faith in God. And God is a rewarder of all who diligently seek Him. That is why Scripture also says:
Romans 2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life.
This suggests that your concept of serving God is more about following a formula, or set of laws, rather than having an actual relationship with Him.
It is both. Jesus gave us the formula for having a loving relationship with God:
John 14:
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Is it my fault or the fault of the Catholic Church that you and the rest of the Protestants refuse to believe the Word of Jesus Christ?
De Maria, I’m not claiming to know exactly what’s in your heart. But your remarks above do reveal a serious problem with the mindset of many, if not most, Catholics: It is a mindset that is trapped in the bondage of a works-based salvation.
It is the Protestant faith alone mindset which is deadset against the Word of God:
James 2:
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
cont'd
cont'd
DeleteBut the fact is that it DOES matter if you do works to get saved or not. Because one who adds his good works to the cross, with the intention of somehow “contributing to” his salvation, is now severed from Christ and has fallen from grace. (Galatians 5:4)
That is not what that verse means.
Galatians 5:1-6
King James Version (KJV)
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
First he contrasts the New Testament of Jesus Christ to the Law of Moses. Not the Ten Commandments, lest you be confused. But the ordinances which Moses attached to the Ten Commandments.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Although the covenant of Circumcision began with Abraham. It is also one of the ordinances of the Mosaic law and has been annulled by Jesus Christ. It is however, the sign of the yoke of bondage. It is the sign of the Mosaic covenant. That is why he frequently calls them the Circumcision.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
When he says the "whole" law, he means the hundreds of ordinances which Christ nailed to the Cross.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Therefore, he says, if you are trying to keep these ordinances, then Christ died in vain for you. Because Christ died to annull these ordinances.
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
"Through the Spirit" means by Baptism. Because it is in Baptism that the Spirit washes us of our sins. And it is by this washing that we can hope in becoming righteous as God is righteous. And how do we do that? By doing the works which God appointed for us to do:
'1 John 3:
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Did you get that? The most important thing in the faith of Jesus Christ, the most important thing in Christianity, the most important thing in the New Creation, is faith which works by love. NOT FAITH ALONE.
Therefore, you have misunderstood Gal 5:4. And because of that misunderstanding which has been taught you by the Protestants, it is your relationship with God which is deficient. Not mine.
Sincerely,
De Maria