On Nick's Catholic Blog, Christians Truth and I went off topic and were invited to continue our discussion elsewhere. Christian Truth's words in blue. Here we go:
I'll start with my previous comment:
Christians Truth said...My reply: I will discuss anywhere you would like to. As for the commands of God Catholics do not obey, these I will list:
Thanks for your reply Christians Truth. If you don't mind, let us take each one of those objections, one at a time. Let us begin with this one. You said:
Catholics call their leaders "father," and the priests call each other "father." Matthew 23:9 And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven…..
First, let us go to Matt 23 and see the entire context of that verse. The KJV renders it thus:
Matthew 23:8-10
8But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
I think you would agree with me that the original Scriptures were not written in English. They were written in Greek, Latin and Hebrew. And the words here translated Rabbi, Master and Father mean other things. Let us look at another non-Catholic translation:
Matthew 23:8-10
8 “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah.
So, I would not call anyone "Rabbi" because I'm not Jewish. So, forbidding to call anyone "Rabbi" would not affect me. However, Rabbi means Teacher and I've called all my teachers, "Teacher". Have I sinned?
In fact, I know many who have called their teachers, Teacher. And they are devout people from many Christian faiths. But many non-Catholics seem to be only concerned about the part which says, "call no man your father". But ignore the other parts which say, call no man "teacher, or master". Did you know that the title, mister is another form of the word, "master"? So, does anyone call you "mr."? Or do you call anyone else, "mr."?
Now, I've talked to non-Catholics before on this subject and I ask them, "what do you call your "father"?" And they'll say, "I call him "dad"". As though they have somehow avoided calling him "father" by calling him "dad". But dad means father! So how did they avoid the sin they claim I make by calling the priest, "father"?
For another, the verse says, don't call any man "your father". Whereas, we don't say, Father Dan is my father. We say, Father Dan is my priest. Father is a title. I've never heard a Catholic say, my priest is my "father". Whereas, many people of all denominations say, "My father's name is Joe."
So, please explain why you see there to be a sin in calling a priest, "father", whereas I don't hear you complain about folks calling a man, teacher, master, mister, Rabbi, dad, or any of the other titles which are forbidden in the context of Matt 23:9?
Please help me to understand.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Thanks for your reply Christians Truth. If you don't mind, let us take each one of those objections, one at a time. Let us begin with this one. You said:
Catholics call their leaders "father," and the priests call each other "father." Matthew 23:9 And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven…..
First, let us go to Matt 23 and see the entire context of that verse. The KJV renders it thus:
Matthew 23:8-10
8But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
I think you would agree with me that the original Scriptures were not written in English. They were written in Greek, Latin and Hebrew. And the words here translated Rabbi, Master and Father mean other things. Let us look at another non-Catholic translation:
Matthew 23:8-10
8 “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah.
So, I would not call anyone "Rabbi" because I'm not Jewish. So, forbidding to call anyone "Rabbi" would not affect me. However, Rabbi means Teacher and I've called all my teachers, "Teacher". Have I sinned?
In fact, I know many who have called their teachers, Teacher. And they are devout people from many Christian faiths. But many non-Catholics seem to be only concerned about the part which says, "call no man your father". But ignore the other parts which say, call no man "teacher, or master". Did you know that the title, mister is another form of the word, "master"? So, does anyone call you "mr."? Or do you call anyone else, "mr."?
Now, I've talked to non-Catholics before on this subject and I ask them, "what do you call your "father"?" And they'll say, "I call him "dad"". As though they have somehow avoided calling him "father" by calling him "dad". But dad means father! So how did they avoid the sin they claim I make by calling the priest, "father"?
For another, the verse says, don't call any man "your father". Whereas, we don't say, Father Dan is my father. We say, Father Dan is my priest. Father is a title. I've never heard a Catholic say, my priest is my "father". Whereas, many people of all denominations say, "My father's name is Joe."
So, please explain why you see there to be a sin in calling a priest, "father", whereas I don't hear you complain about folks calling a man, teacher, master, mister, Rabbi, dad, or any of the other titles which are forbidden in the context of Matt 23:9?
Please help me to understand.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Christian Truth replied to that comment saying:
You said: So, I would not call anyone "Rabbi" because I'm not Jewish. So, forbidding to call anyone "Rabbi" would not affect me. However, Rabbi means Teacher and I've called all my teachers, "Teacher". Have I sinned?
My reply: You sin by calling the priests "father." In addition, they sin by teaching you to. They also sin and go against God's Word by calling each other "father." I know this is going to sound harsh but I just knew you would make excuses for disobeying Jesus. Why do you have to disobey Jesus? Jesus says, “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have only one Master and you are all brothers.”
Did the disciples tell others to call them ‘Rabbi’? No, they did not. Did others call the disciples ‘Rabbi’? No, others did not call the disciples ‘Rabbi.’ However, Jesus said they are all brothers. Did the Apostles and disciples call each other ‘brother’? Yes, the Apostles and disciples obeyed and called each other ‘brother’ and ‘sister.’
You said: In fact, I know many who have called their teachers, Teacher. And they are devout people from many Christian faiths. But many non-Catholics seem to be only concerned about the part which says, "call no man your father". But ignore the other parts which say, call no man "teacher, or master".
My reply: Do you think that the Catholics are justified in their sins because other sin too?
You said: Did you know that the title, mister is another form of the word, "master"? So, does anyone call you "mr."? Or do you call anyone else, "mr."?
My reply: I do not call my brothers in Christ my misters, or do I call any of them 'Master.' They are my brothers. I do not call anyone my Spiritual Teacher. However, the Catholics dare call the pope ‘Holy Father.’
You said: Now, I've talked to non-Catholics before on this subject and I ask them, "what do you call your "father"?" And they'll say, "I call him "dad"". As though they have somehow avoided calling him "father" by calling him "dad". But dad means father! So how did they avoid the sin they claim I make by calling the priest, "father"?
My reply: That is a very worldly answer from you. Our biological dads or biological fathers who raise us are not our Spiritual Father. How you claim that we might be sinning for calling our fathers ‘father’ is farcical. The Bible is clear that we have earthly fathers who raise us. The Bible is also clear that Christians are not to call each other in Christ ‘Father.’ It is plain and simple.
You said: For another, the verse says, don't call any man "your father". Whereas, we don't say, Father Dan is my father. We say, Father Dan is my priest. Father is a title. I've never heard a Catholic say, my priest is my "father". Whereas, many people of all denominations say, "My father's name is Joe."
My reply: Jesus says, “And do not call anyone on earth ‘father.’ For you have one Father, and he is in heaven.
So, your reasoning is not valid about not calling any man “your father.” It is plain and simple, do not call anyone on earth ‘father.’ They are brothers. Yet Catholics call their leaders ‘father.’ In addition, the Catholic ‘fathers’ call each other ‘father.’ Again, Jesus says they are all brothers.
You said: So, please explain why you see there to be a sin in calling a priest, "father", whereas I don't hear you complain about folks calling a man, teacher, master, mister, Rabbi, dad, or any of the other titles which are forbidden in the context of Matt 23:9?
My reply: Do not allow another Christian follower to call you ‘father.’ In addition, do not call other Christian followers ‘father.’ Likewise with ‘Rabbi,’ and ‘teacher,’ Why is that hard for you to obey?
I also want to take this time to point out that we are all priests in the Lord, see Revelation 5:10.
My reply: You sin by calling the priests "father." In addition, they sin by teaching you to. They also sin and go against God's Word by calling each other "father." I know this is going to sound harsh but I just knew you would make excuses for disobeying Jesus. Why do you have to disobey Jesus? Jesus says, “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have only one Master and you are all brothers.”
Did the disciples tell others to call them ‘Rabbi’? No, they did not. Did others call the disciples ‘Rabbi’? No, others did not call the disciples ‘Rabbi.’ However, Jesus said they are all brothers. Did the Apostles and disciples call each other ‘brother’? Yes, the Apostles and disciples obeyed and called each other ‘brother’ and ‘sister.’
You said: In fact, I know many who have called their teachers, Teacher. And they are devout people from many Christian faiths. But many non-Catholics seem to be only concerned about the part which says, "call no man your father". But ignore the other parts which say, call no man "teacher, or master".
My reply: Do you think that the Catholics are justified in their sins because other sin too?
You said: Did you know that the title, mister is another form of the word, "master"? So, does anyone call you "mr."? Or do you call anyone else, "mr."?
My reply: I do not call my brothers in Christ my misters, or do I call any of them 'Master.' They are my brothers. I do not call anyone my Spiritual Teacher. However, the Catholics dare call the pope ‘Holy Father.’
You said: Now, I've talked to non-Catholics before on this subject and I ask them, "what do you call your "father"?" And they'll say, "I call him "dad"". As though they have somehow avoided calling him "father" by calling him "dad". But dad means father! So how did they avoid the sin they claim I make by calling the priest, "father"?
My reply: That is a very worldly answer from you. Our biological dads or biological fathers who raise us are not our Spiritual Father. How you claim that we might be sinning for calling our fathers ‘father’ is farcical. The Bible is clear that we have earthly fathers who raise us. The Bible is also clear that Christians are not to call each other in Christ ‘Father.’ It is plain and simple.
You said: For another, the verse says, don't call any man "your father". Whereas, we don't say, Father Dan is my father. We say, Father Dan is my priest. Father is a title. I've never heard a Catholic say, my priest is my "father". Whereas, many people of all denominations say, "My father's name is Joe."
My reply: Jesus says, “And do not call anyone on earth ‘father.’ For you have one Father, and he is in heaven.
So, your reasoning is not valid about not calling any man “your father.” It is plain and simple, do not call anyone on earth ‘father.’ They are brothers. Yet Catholics call their leaders ‘father.’ In addition, the Catholic ‘fathers’ call each other ‘father.’ Again, Jesus says they are all brothers.
You said: So, please explain why you see there to be a sin in calling a priest, "father", whereas I don't hear you complain about folks calling a man, teacher, master, mister, Rabbi, dad, or any of the other titles which are forbidden in the context of Matt 23:9?
My reply: Do not allow another Christian follower to call you ‘father.’ In addition, do not call other Christian followers ‘father.’ Likewise with ‘Rabbi,’ and ‘teacher,’ Why is that hard for you to obey?
I also want to take this time to point out that we are all priests in the Lord, see Revelation 5:10.
Ok, here's my response:
Christians Truth said...
My reply: You sin by calling the priests "father." In addition, they sin by teaching you to. They also sin and go against God's Word by calling each other "father." I know this is going to sound harsh but I just knew you would make excuses for disobeying Jesus. Why do you have to disobey Jesus? Jesus says, “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have only one Master and you are all brothers.”
But did I sin by calling my teachers, "Teacher"? I remember many times seeing one of my teachers and saying, "Hi Teach!" Did I sin in doing that. Because that is prohibited by the Scripture as well? At least the way I read it.
Did the disciples tell others to call them ‘Rabbi’? No, they did not. Did others call the disciples ‘Rabbi’? No, others did not call the disciples ‘Rabbi.’ However, Jesus said they are all brothers. Did the Apostles and disciples call each other ‘brother’? Yes, the Apostles and disciples obeyed and called each other ‘brother’ and ‘sister.’
But the Apostles did consider themselves the Fathers of their disciples. For instance, St. Paul says:
1 Corinthians 4:15
For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
Another non Catholic version of Scripture says,
1 Corinthians 4:15
New International Reader's Version (NIRV)
15 You may have 10,000 believers in Christ watching over you. But you don't have many fathers. I became your father by serving Christ Jesus and telling you the good news.
This is the Tradition we believe we are obeying in calling the Pope, Bishops and Priests, Father.
This is the Tradition we believe we are obeying in calling the Pope, Bishops and Priests, Father.
My reply: Do you think that the Catholics are justified in their sins because other sin too?
So you do consider it a sin to call another man, teacher, rabbi, dad or anything like that. Ok.
So, then, what do you call YOUR dad.
My reply: I do not call my brothers in Christ my misters, or do I call any of them 'Master.' They are my brothers. I do not call anyone my Spiritual Teacher.
But do you call anyone, Mr. Smith or Mrs. Jones?
However, the Catholics dare call the pope ‘Holy Father.’
In obedience to the Tradition confirmed in Scripture as I have noted above.
My reply: That is a very worldly answer from you. Our biological dads or biological fathers who raise us are not our Spiritual Father.
Hm? You've introduced some terminology here. SPIRITUAL Father? So, only those who are considered SPIRITUAL Fathers we are forbidden to call "father"? Please explain. Are you saying that we are free to call our dads, father. But no one else?
How you claim that we might be sinning for calling our fathers ‘father’ is farcical. The Bible is clear that we have earthly fathers who raise us. The Bible is also clear that Christians are not to call each other in Christ ‘Father.’ It is plain and simple.
Scripture is also clear that the Apostles considered themselves our fathers. Let me show you:
St. Paul says:
Galatians 4:19
My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
St. John says:
1 John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
All the Apostles recognize Abraham as their father:
Acts 7:2
And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,
And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,
My reply: Jesus says, “And do not call anyone on earth ‘father.’ For you have one Father, and he is in heaven.
I was going by the KJV rendering. But I see that other non Catholic Bibles say only "father" as you have shown.
So, your reasoning is not valid about not calling any man “your father.” It is plain and simple, do not call anyone on earth ‘father.’ They are brothers. Yet Catholics call their leaders ‘father.’ In addition, the Catholic ‘fathers’ call each other ‘father.’ Again, Jesus says they are all brothers.
Then, I guess you have the Apostles disobeying Jesus.
My reply: Do not allow another Christian follower to call you ‘father.’ In addition, do not call other Christian followers ‘father.’ Likewise with ‘Rabbi,’ and ‘teacher,’ Why is that hard for you to obey?
Bear with me a minute. You sound very sure of yourself. And I wonder, do you consider yourself my superior? Because I read in Scripture that we are supposed to:
Hebrews 13:17
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
Now, I don't remember you being listed as one of those who rule over me in the Church. Yet you seem to believe you can command my obedience to you. Therefore, I obey the Pope, the Bishops and my Priests.
I don't want to sound insulting, but why should I listen to you above those whom I already listen to? Besides, I don't agree with your interpretation of this verse. Are you trying to tell me that you are infallible? That I have no choice? Or what?
I also want to take this time to point out that we are all priests in the Lord, see Revelation 5:10.
That is Catholic Teaching. I have an article here, addressing another person's objection to the Catholic Tradition of having a ministerial priesthood. Perhaps you will engage me there.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Hi De Maria,
ReplyDeleteI am so glad that you would still like to continue discussing. I want to let you know that I have been having some trouble with being able to follow blogs from my site, so if it takes me awhile to respond then you know why.
You said: But did I sin by calling my teachers, "Teacher"? I remember many times seeing one of my teachers and saying, "Hi Teach!" Did I sin in doing that. Because that is prohibited by the Scripture as well? At least the way I read it.
My reply: Was this “Teacher” teaching you about Christ? If yes, then I believe you were sinning. If someone is teaching me about Jesus, I do not call them “Teacher.” I would say, “Hi, brother in Christ. Thank you for teaching me.”
You said: But the Apostles did consider themselves the Fathers of their disciples. For instance, St. Paul says:
1 Corinthians 4:15
For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
My reply: There were not many Apostles, and the Apostles were literally the first, like fathers; however, Paul did not ever say to call him 'father.' Nor is there any reference to anyone disobeying Jesus by calling Paul ‘father.’ The scripture you presented also proves Catholics sin, for Paul says, “Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.” However, in the Catholic religion, there are literally thousands and thousands of so-called fathers. It shows that Catholics go against the word of God. Again, Paul says we have not many fathers in Christ, but Catholics have thousands upon thousands of fathers in Christ.
You said: This is the Tradition we believe we are obeying in calling the Pope, Bishops and Priests, Father.
My reply: This is what Jesus says to those who follow tradition...Mark 7:8-9, 13 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.” And he said to them: “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!
Just like the Catholics do in calling their priests 'father.'
Continued...
You said: But do you call anyone, Mr. Smith or Mrs. Jones?
ReplyDeleteMy reply: I already explained this in the other post. We are not to call our brother and sister in Christ “Father,” or “Master.” It is a worldly thought and answer of you to say then you cannot call a stranger “Mr.” Even a young child can understand Jesus when he says do not call each other ‘father’ and they are brothers. How do you justify not keeping Jesus’ commands? By calling someone “Mr.” you are not telling a person that they are your Master in Christ. However, when you call another Christian “father,” you are disobeying Jesus.
My reply: The Catholics dare call the pope ‘Holy Father.’
You said: In obedience to the Tradition confirmed in Scripture as I have noted above.
My reply: “Holy Father” is a name reserved only for God. It should make you cringe to even hear someone call any man that name. Jesus says that men follow tradition and nullify the word of God. Catholics calling the pope ‘Holy Father’ is Catholics nullifying God's word and follow man's.
You said: Hm? You've introduced some terminology here. SPIRITUAL Father? So, only those who are considered SPIRITUAL Fathers we are forbidden to call "father"? Please explain. Are you saying that we are free to call our dads, father. But no one else?
My reply: Jesus tells his DISCIPLES (disciples are those who follow the Way), not to call anyone ‘father.’ Jesus says they are brothers. What is so hard for you to understand about that? You have a religious fold, and it is Catholic. In this Catholic fold, you call those more experienced ‘father,’ and that is in defiance to the Lord’s commands. Do you call your biological father ‘brother’? Why do you not call your biological father ‘brother’? Do you call your biological brother ‘father’? Why do you not call your biological brother ‘father’? For they are related to each other, and hey, they might even look like each other, so what is the harm? We know my biological brother is not my father, so what does it matter?
You said: Scripture is also clear that the Apostles considered themselves our fathers. Let me show you: St. Paul says: Galatians 4:19
My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
My reply: Please see what I explained about this above.
You said: All the Apostles recognize Abraham as their father: Acts 7:2
And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,
My reply: What does that have to do with Jesus telling his disciples not to call anyone ‘father’? They are brothers. Whom do you think Jesus was talking? Jesus was talking to them and about them.
Continued...
You said: Then, I guess you have the Apostles disobeying Jesus.
ReplyDeleteMy reply: How do you get that the Apostles disobeyed Jesus? The Apostles did not call each other ‘father,’ nor did any of the believers call them ‘father.’ Jesus was talking to and about the disciples.
You said: Bear with me a minute. You sound very sure of yourself. And I wonder, do you consider yourself my superior? Because I read in Scripture that we are supposed to: Hebrews 13:17
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. Now, I don't remember you being listed as one of those who rule over me in the Church. Yet you seem to believe you can command my obedience to you. Therefore, I obey the Pope, the Bishops and my Priests. I don't want to sound insulting, but why should I listen to you above those whom I already listen to? Besides, I don't agree with your interpretation of this verse. Are you trying to tell me that you are infallible? That I have no choice? Or what?
My reply: All I am telling you is to check out what others teach you, check out what they say by reading the written word of God. The apostles from the New Testament received all the truth we need to guide us to eternal life, and they wrote this down in the Scriptures: John 16:13; 2 Peter 1:3; Acts 20:20, 27; Matthew 28:20; I Corinthians 14:37; 2 Timothy 3:16, 17. God’s word is understandable even to a young child. How from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus, see 2 Timothy 3:15. We do not need elected leaders to interpret God’s word, but we should use the word to check out the teachers, see Mark 7:14; 2 Timothy 3:15, 16, 17; John 20:30, 31; Acts 17:11; and, Psalm 119:105. For we do not write you anything you cannot read or understand. And I hope that, as you have understood us in part, you will come to understand fully that you can boast of us just as we will boast of you in the day of the Lord Jesus. See 2 Corinthians 1:13,14.
You said: That is Catholic Teaching. I have an article here, addressing another person's objection to the Catholic Tradition of having a ministerial priesthood. Perhaps you will engage me there.
My reply: If you believe we have not covered this one topic enough here, I will gladly go to the other post and continue more there. Let me know.
I ask you, how do you obey Jesus when he says do not call anyone ‘father’? Please explain that to me. Let me assure you, you do not obey.
Hi De Maria, I am so glad that you would still like to continue discussing.
ReplyDeleteI am glad you wanted to continue as well. I think people like us hunger to speak the Word of God.
I want to let you know that I have been having some trouble with being able to follow blogs from my site, so if it takes me awhile to respond then you know why.
No problem. My reply: Was this “Teacher” teaching you about Christ? If yes, then I believe you were sinning. If someone is teaching me about Jesus, I do not call them “Teacher.” I would say, “Hi, brother in Christ. Thank you for teaching me.”
1. Where do you find that in the Scripture? I don't see anything about not calling our teachers in the faith, "teacher", but being able to call our secular teachers, "teacher". So, please show me in the text where it makes this difference.
2. Which means that you call your secular teachers, teacher. And if you want to apply that Scripture consistently, that goes against Christ's command as well.
My reply: There were not many Apostles, and the Apostles were literally the first, like fathers;
According to you, Christ made no exceptions. So, now you are saying that the Apostles were like fathers?
however, Paul did not ever say to call him 'father.'
According to my reading, he did, saying, "I became your father through the Gospel."
Nor is there any reference to anyone disobeying Jesus by calling Paul ‘father.’
But they call Abraham, "father". And they refer to their ancestors as, "fathers". And just because there is no instance of St. Paul being called "father" in the Bible, that doesn't mean that it didn't happen. Especially since he told them he was their spiritual father through the Gospel.
The scripture you presented also proves Catholics sin, for Paul says, “Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.”
On the contrary, that doesn't say, "…you do not have ANY fathers…" It says, you "…do not have MANY fathers…".
However, in the Catholic religion, there are literally thousands and thousands of so-called fathers.
Today, because it is the largest religion in the world. Even though your religion is much smaller, you have many thousands of teachers.
It shows that Catholics go against the word of God.
On the contrary, we follow our understanding of the Bible. We disagree with you and the Protestants with whom you share this misunderstanding of Scripture. But in the beginning it was not so. Tradition has called "priests" father since the beginning. The ancient Churches follow the same Tradition. Only the new religions which abandoned the Traditions of Jesus Christ will deny this. The Orthodox, for instance, also call their "Patriarchs" (i.e. Fathers), Popes (Father).
Again, Paul says we have not many fathers in Christ, but Catholics have thousands upon thousands of fathers in Christ.
You read the Bible according to the custom of the Protestants. We read it the way it is to be read. Scripture says:
2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
According to the tradition of the Catholic Church, we have many teachers. Our parents, our neighbors, our friends. Whoever is a faithful follower of Jesus Christ. But we have few Priests in comparison.
Of course, you want to impose your interpretation upon ours, but I'd like to know why you feel superior to us?
Cont'd
cont'd
ReplyDeleteChristians Truth said:
My reply: This is what Jesus says to those who follow tradition...Mark 7:8-9, 13 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.” And he said to them: “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!
This is another verse which you gravely misunderstand. And in doing so, you have Scripture contradicting itself. First of all, Scripture says, "hold the TRADITIONS" (2 Thess 2:15).
And Christ did not command us to leave all traditions. But only the TRADITIONS OF MAN, read that verse carefully:
Mark 7: 8For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the TRADITION OF MEN, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 9And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
Just like the Catholics do in calling their priests 'father.'
On the contrary, we hold the Traditions of Jesus Christ as commanded by Scripture. Whereas, we don't follow your interpretation of Scripture.
My reply: I already explained this in the other post.
But the explanation is inconsistent.
We are not to call our brother and sister in Christ “Father,” or “Master.”
I want to see that in the Scripture. I see nothing about a restriction concerning "brother or sister".
It is a worldly thought and answer of you
Those types of thoughts are double edged swords. I believe it is you thinking in a worldly sense.
to say then you cannot call a stranger “Mr.” Even a young child can understand Jesus when he says do not call each other ‘father’ and they are brothers.
But Jesus did not say that. You are saying that and adding it to Scripture. St. John called some members of the Body of Christ, "fathers".
1 John 2:13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning.
How do you justify not keeping Jesus’ commands?
I keep Jesus' commands. But you, according to your reading of Scripture, do not. If you did, you would not call anyone father, teacher or mister. But you make justifications for doing so, in direct contradiction to the Scripture. But you ignore that discrepancy and accuse us of sin. Whereas Scripture says:
Matthew 7:3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
By calling someone “Mr.” you are not telling a person that they are your Master in Christ. However, when you call another Christian “father,” you are disobeying Jesus.
Where is this "Master in Christ" coming from? I don't see that in Scripture.
cont'd
cont'd
ReplyDeleteChristians Truth said:
My reply: The Catholics dare call the pope ‘Holy Father.’
In accordance with Scripture we recognize the Spiritual Father of our Leaders in the Faith:
Matthew 7:3
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
That is why Scripture admonishes us
Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.to obey them:
My reply: “Holy Father” is a name reserved only for God.
In your tradition which began only recently. Our Tradition, which began with the Apostles, permits us to call those who our Spiritual Leaders, Holy Father.
It should make you cringe to even hear someone call any man that name. Jesus says that men follow tradition and nullify the word of God. Catholics calling the pope ‘Holy Father’ is Catholics nullifying God's word and follow man's.
On the contrary, honoring our Spiritual Leaders in the manner suggested by St. Paul is very much in the SPIRIT of Scripture. Whereas, your tradition denies them their place of honor.
My reply: Jesus tells his DISCIPLES (disciples are those who follow the Way), not to call anyone ‘father.’ Jesus says they are brothers. What is so hard for you to understand about that?
Jesus said:
Matthew 23:9 And CALL NO MAN your father upon the earth….
It seems you make exceptions for your own behavior.
You have a religious fold, and it is Catholic. In this Catholic fold, you call those more experienced ‘father,’ and that is in defiance to the Lord’s commands.
And you call many "teacher" and your father, "father" in defiance of the Lord's command.
Do you call your biological father ‘brother’? Why do you not call your biological father ‘brother’?
Why not? We are both children of God, the Father.
Do you call your biological brother ‘father’?
If he ever became a Priest, yes.
Why do you not call your biological brother ‘father’? For they are related to each other, and hey, they might even look like each other, so what is the harm? We know my biological brother is not my father, so what does it matter?
But is he your Spiritual Father? My reply: Please see what I explained about this above.
I did. I disagree with your explanation.
My reply: What does that have to do with Jesus telling his disciples not to call anyone ‘father’?
He said not to call any man ON THIS EARTH, "father". Abraham was the earthly father of the entire Jewish nation.
They are brothers. Whom do you think Jesus was talking? Jesus was talking to them and about them.
Jesus also commanded them to teach the whole world.
Continued...
Continued...
ReplyDeleteChristians Truth said... My reply: How do you get that the Apostles disobeyed Jesus? The Apostles did not call each other ‘father,’ nor did any of the believers call them ‘father.’ Jesus was talking to and about the disciples.
As I explained above, St. John called some members of the Body of Christ, "fathers", St. Paul called himself our "Father through the Gospel", the Apostles recognized the fatherhood of Abraham and the fatherhood of the Patriarchs. Not to mention that they freely used the words, teacher, instructor, Rabbi, and master, which were forbidden in that verse.
We, Catholics, follow the Apostolic Tradition. You add to Scripture to justify your own behavior against your interpretation of the Word of God. But we don't need to do any of that, we simply follow the Traditions of the Apostles.
My reply: All I am telling you is to check out what others teach you, check out what they say by reading the written word of God.
I have done so. I am quoting to you the Scriptures and notifying you that you are adding to the Word, because it says nothing about "Masters in Christ" or about not calling "brothers in Christ fathers." Nothing.
The apostles from the New Testament received all the truth we need to guide us to eternal life, and they wrote this down in the Scriptures: John 16:13; 2 Peter 1:3; Acts 20:20, 27; Matthew 28:20; I Corinthians 14:37; 2 Timothy 3:16, 17.
First, they taught it by word of mouth. Because Jesus wrote not a word of Scripture. He established Traditions which He commanded the Church to teach to the world:
Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
God’s word is understandable even to a young child.
That is not what Scripture says:
2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Acts 8:29Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
30And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?31And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
cont'd
Christians Truth said:
ReplyDeleteHow from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus, see 2 Timothy 3:15.
St. Timothy was taught the faith by his mother and grandmother, Lois and Eunice (2 Tim 1:5) and by St. Paul himself (2 Tim 3:10).
We do not need elected leaders to interpret God’s word,
Scripture says otherwise:
Hebrews 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
Hebrews 6:12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
but we should use the word to check out the teachers, see Mark 7:14; 2 Timothy 3:15, 16, 17; John 20:30, 31; Acts 17:11; and, Psalm 119:105.
The Word is contained in Tradition and Scripture:
2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
And it is taught by the Church:
Ephesians 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
Therefore, anyone who contradicts the Church, contradicts God:
Luke 10:16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
For we do not write you anything you cannot read or understand. And I hope that, as you have understood us in part, you will come to understand fully that you can boast of us just as we will boast of you in the day of the Lord Jesus. See 2 Corinthians 1:13,14.
But first they passed down the word by mouth:
1 Thessalonians 2:13For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
And then they continued to do so:
2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
My reply: If you believe we have not covered this one topic enough here, I will gladly go to the other post and continue more there. Let me know. I ask you, how do you obey Jesus when he says do not call anyone ‘father’? Please explain that to me. Let me assure you, you do not obey.
I assure you that I obey Jesus according to the Tradition of the Apostles. Whereas, you disobey Jesus by dishonoring our Spiritual Fathers in Christ.
In another place, Jesus said:
Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
Obviously, Jesus was not advocating that one disobey the Ten Commandments. But Jesus was, in both cases, emphasizing the eminence of the Spiritual Fatherhood of Our Heavenly Father, over and above the fatherhood of the flesh of our biological fathers. THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUE FATHER, God. Jesus was not speaking literally.
If you feel we have discussed this enough, we can move on. I believe we have both given enough arguments for the reader to make a judge for himself who is right.
What would you like to discuss next?
Sincerely,
De Maria
You said: I am glad you wanted to continue as well. I think people like us hunger to speak the Word of God.
ReplyDeleteMy reply: I love speaking about God’s Word. There is nothing more enjoyable. I do want to say though, that I adhere strictly to God’s written word. I do not honor any other books and writers outside the Bible, such as Augustine, or Origen, or anyone else.
You said: 1. Where do you find that in the Scripture? I don't see anything about not calling our teachers in the faith, "teacher", but being able to call our secular teachers, "teacher". So, please show me in the text where it makes this difference. 2. Which means that you call your secular teachers, teacher. And if you want to apply that Scripture consistently, that goes against Christ's command as well.
My reply: Matthew 23:1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to the disciples:
Matthew 23:8 “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have only one Master and you are all brothers.
Matthew 23:9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.
Matthew 23:10 Nor are you to be called ‘teacher,’ for you have one Teacher, the Christ.
Jesus is talking to his “disciples.” Jesus says they are “brothers.” Do you call your biological brother ‘father’? Of course, you do not; for he is your brother, so do not call your brother ‘father.’ Jesus says you are brothers. Do not call your Catholic brother ‘father.’ It is that simple to obey, if that is what you truly want to do. Jesus is talking about brothers; is your math teacher your brother in Christ? Is your math teacher teaching you about Jesus? If yes, then do not call him “Teacher.”
You said: According to you, Christ made no exceptions. So, now you are saying that the Apostles were like fathers?
My reply: Fathers come before their children. Apostles came first after Christ.
You said: According to my reading, he did, saying, "I became your father through the Gospel."
My reply: Paul does not say to call him ‘father.’ Apostle Paul does not put himself in the category of “father of the Christians.” Nowhere in the Bible does Paul say to call him ‘father.’ Nowhere in the scriptures does anyone call Paul ‘father.’ In fact, there are many scriptures that Paul calls people ‘brother’ and ‘sister.’ You are going treading outside the word of God, and in fact going against the word of God when you call a brother in Christ ‘father.’ If a man tells me he is like a father to me, leading me in the way of truth, and teaching me, me a like a young child being raised up in truth…that does not at all suggest he tells me to call him father!
You said: But they call Abraham, "father". And they refer to their ancestors as, "fathers".
ReplyDeleteMy reply: Jesus told his disciples that THEY were brothers. Calling any of THEM 'father', who are brothers, would be wrong.
You said: Today, because it is the largest religion in the world. Even though your religion is much smaller, you have many thousands of teachers.
My reply: Just because time goes by, and just because a religion false, or not, grows, that does not change the written word, and the written word says we do not have many fathers in Christ.
You said: On the contrary, we follow our understanding of the Bible. We disagree with you and the Protestants with whom you share this misunderstanding of Scripture.
My reply: I am not a Protestant. I do not believe in all Luther, or Calvin says. I debate much with the reformed group. I believe in the words of Jesus Christ.
You said: But in the beginning it was not so. Tradition has called "priests" father since the beginning. The ancient Churches follow the same Tradition. Only the new religions which abandoned the Traditions of Jesus Christ will deny this. The Orthodox, for instance, also call their "Patriarchs" (i.e. Fathers), Popes (Father).
My reply: Do you not know that others in charge in Jesus’ time have added to God’s word? Do you not know that? Do you not know Jesus corrected them in this? As for calling priests and Patriarchs ‘father,’ many things have changed, those are the Patriarchs, Catholic priests are not Patriarchs, no one else can be.
You said: You read the Bible according to the custom of the Protestants. We read it the way it is to be read. Scripture says:
2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
According to the tradition of the Catholic Church, we have many teachers. Our parents, our neighbors, our friends. Whoever is a faithful follower of Jesus Christ. But we have few Priests in comparison.
Of course, you want to impose your interpretation upon ours, but I'd like to know why you feel superior to us?
My reply: I follow the Word of God. I do not go beyond the written word. I do not lean to the left or to the right of God’s word. I do not add to God’s word. When you say, “for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life,” are you suggesting you can be lax with God’s word? Are you suggesting that the word says we can be lax with the word of God? You are quoting Paul when Paul explains that before we had the law, the law without the Holy Spirit!
You said: This is another verse which you gravely misunderstand. And in doing so, you have Scripture contradicting itself. First of all, Scripture says, "hold the TRADITIONS" (2 Thess 2:15).
ReplyDeleteMy reply: I do not have scripture contradicting itself! 2 Thessalonians says, “So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.” THE APOSTLES DO NOT TEACH THINGS BY MOUTH THAT GO AGAINST WHAT THEY WRITE IN A LETTER. THE APOSTLES DO NOT TEACH THINGS BY MOUTH THT GO AGAINST WHAT JESUS TEACHES.
You said: On the contrary, we hold the Traditions of Jesus Christ as commanded by Scripture. Whereas, we don't follow your interpretation of Scripture.
My reply: You go against Jesus’ teachings! YOU STILL HAVE NOT TOLD ME HOW YOU KEEP JESUS’ COMMANDS ABOUT CALL NO MAN FATHER.
You said: But Jesus did not say that. You are saying that and adding it to Scripture. St. John called some members of the Body of Christ, "fathers".
1 John 2:13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning.
My reply: John is speaking to the biological fathers in the group!
You said: I keep Jesus' commands. But you, according to your reading of Scripture, do not. If you did, you would not call anyone father, teacher or mister. But you make justifications for doing so, in direct contradiction to the Scripture. But you ignore that discrepancy and accuse us of sin. Whereas Scripture says:
Matthew 7:3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
My reply: Do you think that is proof that you can sin? No way does that mean you can just get away with not obeying Jesus’ teachings! Read what Jesus says, “You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.”
I have taken the plank out of my own eye, I was a Catholic, and now I want to take the mote out in your eye.
Continued...
You said: That is why Scripture admonishes us
ReplyDeleteHebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.to obey them:
My reply: So you are hiding behind the pope. We are grown people, and we have Bibles, we have the completed word of God, we can read the word of God---AND WE WILL BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE. Gone are the days of the foundation being laid---THE FOUNDATION IS LAID, see Ephesians 2:20. Gone are the days of limited Bibles in circulation, for I know you have access to God's written word. Catholic priests for a time told people not to read the Bible without a priest or a nun to help them understand what they read; this is NOT your excuse anymore.
You said: In your tradition which began only recently. Our Tradition, which began with the Apostles, permits us to call those who our Spiritual Leaders, Holy Father.
My reply: My beliefs are that of Jesus Christ. Jesus is telling you not to call anyone ‘father’, so stop calling your priests ‘father,’ and do not ever call anyone besides God ‘Holy Father.' Tell Jesus you want to obey him, and show him you mean it. You will be blessed more than I can tell you.
You said: On the contrary, honoring our Spiritual Leaders in the manner suggested by St. Paul is very much in the SPIRIT of Scripture. Whereas, your tradition denies them their place of honor.
My reply: I obey the teachings of Jesus.
You said: He said not to call any man ON THIS EARTH, "father". Abraham was the earthly father of the entire Jewish nation.
My reply: Again, Jesus told his disciples that they were brothers. Brothers do not call each other ‘father.’
Continued…
You said: I have done so. I am quoting to you the Scriptures and notifying you that you are adding to the Word, because it says nothing about "Masters in Christ" or about not calling "brothers in Christ fathers." Nothing.
ReplyDeleteMy reply: Are you so blind? Jesus says, “you are all brothers.” Matthew 23:8.
You said: That is not what Scripture says:
2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
My reply: I only quote what scripture says, so you are falsely accusing me. As for 2 Peter 3:16, the Catholics have claimed the scriptures are hard too understand! However, the scriptures are not too hard to understand! You therefore admit to being unlearned, and you without knowing fall for the teachings of the unstable.
You said: Acts 8:29Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
30And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?31And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
My reply: I have shown you the scriptures, and have explained them to you, and you still do not obey Jesus. Tell me, how do you obey Jesus in "call no one ‘father’"? Tell me, please.
You said: St. Timothy was taught the faith by his mother and grandmother, Lois and Eunice (2 Tim 1:5) and by St. Paul himself (2 Tim 3:10).
ReplyDeleteMy reply: How does Timothy being taught by his mother and grandmother mean he did not know the scriptures AS A YOUTH?
You said: Scripture says otherwise:
Hebrews 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
Hebrews 6:12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
My reply: When the New Testament was being written by letters and by books---THE PEOPLE DEPENDED ON HAVING THE LETTERS READ TO THEM. THE PEOPLE DEPENDED ON GOING TO CHURCH AND HAVING THE PROPHETS SPEAK PROPHECIES TO THEM THERE! We have the written word of God in our hands. There are no new prophecies.
You said: The Word is contained in Tradition and Scripture:
2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
My reply: You need to acknowledge what I say. You need to stop going on as if you never heard my explanation the first time. The written word by letter and books IS WHAT THE APOSTLES ORALLY TAUGHT. The Apostles did NOT speak against what they wrote! The Apostles did NOT write against what they spoke! The Apostles did NOT teach against Jesus’ teachings! The Catholics add to the teachings of Jesus! The Catholics, in teaching added doctrine, in this they go against God’s Word! In this, they nullify the word of God to follow the teachings of man! THAT IS WHAT JESUS SAYS!
You said: And it is taught by the Church:
Ephesians 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
My reply: Apostle Paul warned the flock about false teachers! The false teachers were there then, and the false teachers are still here. Catholics followed the false ways of false teachers.
You said: Therefore, anyone who contradicts the Church, contradicts God:
Luke 10:16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
My reply: The Catholic Church has contradicted the true believers, the true believers are the body of Christ, and with Christ as the head, we are the Church. Catholics contradict the word of God.
You said: I assure you that I obey Jesus according to the Tradition of the Apostles. Whereas, you disobey Jesus by dishonoring our Spiritual Fathers in Christ.
ReplyDeleteMy reply: You still have not told me how you obey Jesus in call no man ‘father.’ I am waiting for an answer.
You said: In another place, Jesus said:
Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
Obviously, Jesus was not advocating that one disobey the Ten Commandments. But Jesus was, in both cases, emphasizing the eminence of the Spiritual Fatherhood of Our Heavenly Father, over and above the fatherhood of the flesh of our biological fathers. THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUE FATHER, God. Jesus was not speaking literally.
My reply: Jesus’ words are literal!
You said: If you feel we have discussed this enough, we can move on. I believe we have both given enough arguments for the reader to make a judge for himself who is right.
My reply: I hope that I have helped strengthen someone who loves the Truth.
You said: What would you like to discuss next?
My reply: I will let you decide that, if you want. In Nick’s blog in the comments section where we were posting, I already posted all the ways in which Catholics do not obey Jesus. You can pick from the list, or go to my blog and read it and pick what you want to discuss next. I pray you have read my posts Catholic Influence Demolished; and, Catholic Influence Demolished Part 2 Pictures. I have been reading your posts, so please give me the same courtesy.
Now, tell me before we go on exactly, and in detail, how you obey Jesus in call no man ‘father.”
I obey Jesus’ command by not calling any brother in Christ ‘father.’
It is your turn to tell me how you obey that command from Jesus.
Christians Truth said...
ReplyDeleteMy reply: I love speaking about God’s Word. There is nothing more enjoyable. I do want to say though, that I adhere strictly to God’s written word. I do not honor any other books and writers outside the Bible, such as Augustine, or Origen, or anyone else.
I mean no disrespect, but that makes me wonder then, why you think anyone should listen to you? You are not in the Bible, are you?
My reply: Matthew 23:1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to the disciples: Matthew 23:8 “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. Matthew 23:9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Matthew 23:10 Nor are you to be called ‘teacher,’ for you have one Teacher, the Christ. Jesus is talking to his “disciples.” Jesus says they are “brothers.” Do you call your biological brother ‘father’? Of course, you do not; for he is your brother, so do not call your brother ‘father.’ Jesus says you are brothers. Do not call your Catholic brother ‘father.’ It is that simple to obey, if that is what you truly want to do. Jesus is talking about brothers; is your math teacher your brother in Christ? Is your math teacher teaching you about Jesus? If yes, then do not call him “Teacher.”
I disagree with your interpretation. I believe Jesus was speaking metaphorically. And I see that the Apostles did not interpret this command as you do. For they called other men fathers:
1 John 2:13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.
And they acknowledged the teachers in the faith:
1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
and I follow that Apostolic Tradition.
My reply: Fathers come before their children. Apostles came first after Christ.
Again, I point out that you are being inconsistent and interpreting this verse to your preference. Jesus says, "...call no man your father upon the earth…". So if you want to condemn Catholics for calling priests, "father", you need to condemn anyone who even considers using that word. My reply: Paul does not say to call him ‘father.’
But he describes himself as such.
Apostle Paul does not put himself in the category of “father of the Christians.”
When he says, "I became your father through the Gospel", he does precisely that.
cont'd
Christians truth said:
ReplyDeleteNowhere in the Bible does Paul say to call him ‘father.’
Your understanding of the Bible is not the only understanding. I follow the teaching of the Church that Scripture describes as:
Ephesians 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
Nowhere in the scriptures does anyone call Paul ‘father.’ In fact, there are many scriptures that Paul calls people ‘brother’ and ‘sister.’ You are going treading outside the word of God, and in fact going against the word of God when you call a brother in Christ ‘father.’
I disagree. The WORD OF GOD is passed down in Tradition and Scripture. The New Testament is based upon the Traditions. But since you have rejected the Traditions, you don't have the full context of the Word of God.
You are like the child who saw a man wearing a kilt and said, "look daddy, that man is dressed like a woman." The child does not understand the tradition of the Irish and therefore interprets wrongly that which he sees the Irish wear. In the same way, you interpret the NT Scriptures oblivious of the 2000 year old Tradition which gave birth to them. And you gravely err as a result.
If a man tells me he is like a father to me, leading me in the way of truth, and teaching me, me a like a young child being raised up in truth…that does not at all suggest he tells me to call him father!
St. Paul didn't say, "I am LIKE your father." He said,
1 Corinthians 4:15
New International Version (NIV)
15 Even if you had ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Christians Truth said...
ReplyDeleteMy reply: Jesus told his disciples that THEY were brothers. Calling any of THEM 'father', who are brothers, would be wrong.
Again, you are reading that Scripture according to your unique preference. Because that is not what it says. Jesus EXPLICITLY SAID,
Matthew 23:9
New International Version (NIV)
9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ ….
There is no room for exceptions in there. Brother or not, the literal reading says, call NO ONE ON EARTH father.
My reply: Just because time goes by, and just because a religion false, or not, grows, that does not change the written word, and the written word says we do not have many fathers in Christ.
The written word also says,
Luke 14:26 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple.
Do you hate your father and mother? If not, then yo can't be a disciple of Christ.
My reply: I am not a Protestant.
I didn't say you were. But you share this misunderstanding with them.
I do not believe in all Luther, or Calvin says. I debate much with the reformed group. I believe in the words of Jesus Christ.
In my opinion, you do not understand the words of Jesus Christ. My reply: Do you not know that others in charge in Jesus’ time have added to God’s word?
You seem very paranoid. Are you the only one you trust? God says:
Hebrews 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
Again, that is a very Protestant attitude. They also disdain the Early Church Fathers like St. Augustine. But we follow them, because they are teachers sent to us by God.
Do you not know that?
Sure. And again the ancient Church identified those and condemned the heresies. Just as the heresies of Luther and Calvin, many of which you follow today, such as SOLA Scriptura and SOLA fide, were condemned by the Church centuries ago.
Do you not know Jesus corrected them in this?
Jesus corrected the Jews and Pharisees of His day. The Church has corrected the Arians, Pelagians, Protestants and others in the centuries after.
CONT'D
Christian Truth said:
ReplyDeleteAs for calling priests and Patriarchs ‘father,’ many things have changed, those are the Patriarchs, Catholic priests are not Patriarchs, no one else can be.
You are confusing the Patriarchs of the Old Testament with the Patriarchs of the early Christian Church. Do you not even know that? You really should study to show yourself approved.
My reply: I follow the Word of God.
You follow YOUR INTERPRETATION of the Word of God.
I do not go beyond the written word.
In fact, you do. For instance, the Scripture we are discussing does not say, "call no man on earth father, except your dad and the patriarchs." It says, "call no man on earth father."
I do not lean to the left or to the right of God’s word. I do not add to God’s word. When you say, “for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life,” are you suggesting you can be lax with God’s word?
I am suggesting that the Word of God is rich with meaning which only the man of the Spirit may discern:
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
You are applying your ways to God. But God's way are far greater.
Are you suggesting that the word says we can be lax with the word of God? You are quoting Paul when Paul explains that before we had the law, the law without the Holy Spirit!
There you go again adding to God's Word. The Holy Spirit has been with us since the world was created. The Holy Spirit is God, eternal. St. Paul is saying that men did not understand the Spirit and read only the letter, thus killing the meaning of the Word.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Christians Truth said:
ReplyDeleteMy reply: I do not have scripture contradicting itself! 2 Thessalonians says, “So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.” THE APOSTLES DO NOT TEACH THINGS BY MOUTH THAT GO AGAINST WHAT THEY WRITE IN A LETTER. THE APOSTLES DO NOT TEACH THINGS BY MOUTH THT GO AGAINST WHAT JESUS TEACHES.
Neither does the Catholic Church. But you do. For instance, disavow Tradition. Which Scripture clearly states, you must keep.
My reply: You go against Jesus’ teachings!
Nope. You do, as I have shown.
YOU STILL HAVE NOT TOLD ME HOW YOU KEEP JESUS’ COMMANDS ABOUT CALL NO MAN FATHER.
Yes I did. But perhaps you didn't understand. I'll repeat. Jesus Christ was speaking metaphorically. As even you admit. You make an exception for biological fathers. We do that as well, but we also recognize the Spiritual Fatherhood of our Spiritual teachers, such as St. Paul described himself.
1 Corinthians 4:15
New International Version (NIV)
15 Even if you had ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.
My reply: John is speaking to the biological fathers in the group!
Show me where Jesus said, "call no man on earth father, except biological fathers". Show me. It is simply your CONVENIENT interpretation in order that you can condemn a group you don't like and excuse your own behavior. BUT YOU are adding to the Word of God.
My reply: Do you think that is proof that you can sin?
God is my judge. Not you:
1 Corinthians 4: 2Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.3But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. 4For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
No way does that mean you can just get away with not obeying Jesus’ teachings!
I obey Christ.
I have taken the plank out of my own eye, I was a Catholic, and now I want to take the mote out in your eye.
You have made a grievous error. I will not be implicated in it. You have fallen away from the true faith. And now, like the Pharisee, you:
Matthew 23:13
King James Version (KJV)
13But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
No thank you. I intend to go to heaven. You may keep your traditions of men.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Christian Truth said…
ReplyDeleteMy reply: So you are hiding behind the pope.
That's funny. Are you jealous? Do you want me to hide behind YOU instead?
I obey the Pope. If I hide behind anyone, it is Jesus Christ, whom I follow. Have you not read in Scripture:
1 Corinthians 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
Yeah, I obey the Pope as Scripture tells us to obey our leaders in the Church. Here is my question to you, which MEN do you obey, who are in charge of your soul?
We are grown people, and we have Bibles, we have the completed word of God, we can read the word of God---AND WE WILL BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE.
I guess that answers my question. You follow no man. And thus, you disobey the Word of God, considering yourself too good to follow man. But Jesus Christ obeyed men even unto death:
John 11:49And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, 50Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
Yeah, God lifts up the humble, but the proud He lays low.
Gone are the days of the foundation being laid---THE FOUNDATION IS LAID, see Ephesians 2:20. Gone are the days of limited Bibles in circulation, for I know you have access to God's written word. Catholic priests for a time told people not to read the Bible without a priest or a nun to help them understand what they read; this is NOT your excuse anymore.
As I showed you before, Scripture says we need teachers in the faith. It is you who consider yourself above teaching. That is why the evil one has confused you:
Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
God says to obey your leaders in the faith, but you deny the God.
My reply: My beliefs are that of Jesus Christ.
Your beliefs are a misinterpretation of the Word of God.
Jesus is telling you not to call anyone ‘father’, so stop calling your priests ‘father,’
Jesus is telling that God is all important. You need to come back to the Church and learn to be humble before God.
and do not ever call anyone besides God ‘Holy Father.' Tell Jesus you want to obey him, and show him you mean it. You will be blessed more than I can tell you.
You will be blessed more than anyone can tell you if you return to the Catholic Church and quit advising men to follow you to destruction.
My reply: I obey the teachings of Jesus.
NO, you obey your own whims and misunderstandings. My reply: Again, Jesus told his disciples that they were brothers. Brothers do not call each other ‘father.’
Again, you don't understand the teaching of Jesus Christ.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Christians Truth said...
ReplyDeleteMy reply: Are you so blind? Jesus says, “you are all brothers.” Matthew 23:8.
Are you so blind, He says, "call no man on earth father…."???
My reply: I only quote what scripture says,
You quote Scripture and then promote your misinterpretation.
so you are falsely accusing me.
No, I'm not. But I'll let the reader decide whether I am right or wrong about this.
As for 2 Peter 3:16, the Catholics have claimed the scriptures are hard too understand! However, the scriptures are not too hard to understand! You therefore admit to being unlearned, and you without knowing fall for the teachings of the unstable.
I quoted the Scripture. But you deny it. Let us read it again:
2 Peter 3:16
King James Version (KJV)
16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
IN WHICH ARE SOME THINGS HARD TO BE UNDERSTOOD
Are you so blind?
My reply: I have shown you the scriptures, and have explained them to you, and you still do not obey Jesus.
On the contrary, I have shown you the scriptures, and have explained them to you, and YOU still do not obey Jesus. If you did, you would repent and come crawling back to His Church.
Tell me, how do you obey Jesus in "call no one ‘father’"? Tell me, please.
Again, Jesus Christ was speaking metaphorically. As even you admit. You make an exception for biological fathers. We do that as well, but we also recognize the Spiritual Fatherhood of our Spiritual teachers, such as St. Paul described himself.
Sincerely,
De Maria
ReplyDeleteMy reply: How does Timothy being taught by his mother and grandmother mean he did not know the scriptures AS A YOUTH?
I didn't say he didn't know the Scriptures. I said he was taught by the Church. His grandmother, mother and St. Paul were also members of Christ's Church. And it is Christ's Church which Christ commanded to teach His Traditions without which one will not understand the Scriptures.
My reply: When the New Testament was being written by letters and by books---THE PEOPLE DEPENDED ON HAVING THE LETTERS READ TO THEM. THE PEOPLE DEPENDED ON GOING TO CHURCH AND HAVING THE PROPHETS SPEAK PROPHECIES TO THEM THERE! We have the written word of God in our hands. There are no new prophecies.
But we must still go to Church and hear the preaching and teaching of the Church.
Hebrews 10:24-26
King James Version (KJV)
24And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
My reply: You need to acknowledge what I say.
This is two way conversation friend. I have read what you say and I disagree with you.
You need to stop going on as if you never heard my explanation the first time. The written word by letter and books IS WHAT THE APOSTLES ORALLY TAUGHT.
The Apostles wrote down what they taught, but that doesn't end the need for Tradition. We continue in the Traditions. And it is because you ignore the Traditions that you don't recognize them in Scripture.
Now, you need to acknowledge what I just said.
The Apostles did NOT speak against what they wrote!
No, they didn't. They didn't, for instance, teach us to disobey our leaders in the faith. A behavior which you justify against the clear teaching of Scripture.
The Apostles did NOT write against what they spoke! The Apostles did NOT teach against Jesus’ teachings! The Catholics add to the teachings of Jesus!
No, you do.
The Catholics, in teaching added doctrine, in this they go against God’s Word! In this, they nullify the word of God to follow the teachings of man! THAT IS WHAT JESUS SAYS!
It is you who do that as I have shown. A very simple example is the cavalier manner in which you claim not to have any leaders to obey. You consider yourself better than any man and Jesus Christ Himself humbled Himself in obedience to men:
Luke 2:51 And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them:…
My reply: Apostle Paul warned the flock about false teachers! The false teachers were there then, and the false teachers are still here. Catholics followed the false ways of false teachers.
I'm afraid I'm speaking to a false teacher right now. YOU.
My reply: The Catholic Church has contradicted the true believers, the true believers are the body of Christ, and with Christ as the head, we are the Church. Catholics contradict the word of God.
No. Its the other way around. As I have shown, you consider yourself alone saved. Whereas, we follow and obey those whom God placed over us in the Church, His Church, the Body of Christ.
Sincerely,
De Maria
ReplyDeleteChristians Truth said...
My reply: You still have not told me how you obey Jesus in call no man ‘father.’ I am waiting for an answer.
I have done so several times. Here it is again:
I believe Jesus was speaking metaphorically. And I see that the Apostles did not interpret this command as you do. For they called other men fathers:
1 John 2:13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.
And they acknowledged the teachers in the faith: 1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
and I follow that Apostolic Tradition.
My reply: Jesus’ words are literal!
Then you should not call your biological father, "father".
Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: ….
My reply: I hope that I have helped strengthen someone who loves the Truth.
Well said.
My reply: I will let you decide that, if you want.
Great! As you know, I like to take things slow. As I was reading our discussion, it occurs to me that we are touching upon many doctrines. In this series today, we touched upon:
1. The difference between how we read Scripture.
2. The importance of Tradition.
3. The importance of our leaders in the Church.
4. The error of Sola Scriptura….
5. The importance of assembling together.
We've touched upon many doctrines already. So, if you don't mind, I'd like to take up this question because it really includes the other four elements.
Let me explain:
The Mass is a Tradition wherein we assemble together to praise God with one mind and mouth. It is in the Mass that we receive the Sacraments and we are taught the Word of God by our Leaders, the Priests. Sola Scriptura teaches that we don't need any of that. So, I think it would be a good topic to continue.
See me here.
In Nick’s blog in the comments section where we were posting, I already posted all the ways in which Catholics do not obey Jesus. You can pick from the list, or go to my blog and read it and pick what you want to discuss next. I pray you have read my posts Catholic Influence Demolished; and, Catholic Influence Demolished Part 2 Pictures. I have been reading your posts, so please give me the same courtesy. Now, tell me before we go on exactly, and in detail, how you obey Jesus in call no man ‘father.” I obey Jesus’ command by not calling any brother in Christ ‘father.’ It is your turn to tell me how you obey that command from Jesus.
I've told you. Here we go again:
Jesus Christ was speaking metaphorically. As even you admit. You make an exception for biological fathers. We do that as well, but we also recognize the Spiritual Fatherhood of our Spiritual teachers, such as St. Paul described himself.
I hope you will continue our discussion in my new article, a link is provided above.
Sincerely,
De Maria
You said: I mean no disrespect, but that makes me wonder then, why you think anyone should listen to you? You are not in the Bible, are you?
ReplyDeleteMy reply: You should check out what I say and see if it is in the Bible. Augustine and Origen, and many others went beyond what is written, they even wrote things that nullified the word of God.
You said: I disagree with your interpretation.
My reply: It is not an interpretation. We have the word of God translated to English and it is plain and simple.
You said: I believe Jesus was speaking metaphorically. And I see that the Apostles did not interpret this command as you do. For they called other men fathers:
My reply: The Apostles were ‘brothers,’ and they did not call each other ‘father.’ Tell me, how do you obey Jesus' metaphorical command in a literal way? You do not obey it if is metaphorically.
You said: 1 John 2:13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.
My reply: I already explained to you that there were fathers and sons there, and John was speaking to them. Are you trying to say that Apostle John was disobeying Jesus by calling all the men there his father? No way, John was not calling all those men his father. You would sin and accuse someone else of the same thing just to cover yourself.
You said: And they acknowledged the teachers in the faith:
1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
and I follow that Apostolic Tradition.
Again, I point out that you are being inconsistent and interpreting this verse to your preference. Jesus says, "...call no man your father upon the earth…". So if you want to condemn Catholics for calling priests, "father", you need to condemn anyone who even considers using that word. My reply: Paul does not say to call him ‘father.’
My reply: Paul does NOT tell anyone to call him ‘father.’ Jesus DOES tell us NOT to call anyone ‘father.’
You said: But he describes himself as such.
My reply: So what? A kindergarten teacher is like a mother to all her students, she teaches, corrects them, probably even loves them, etc. HOWEVER, I did not call my kindergarten teacher ‘mother,’ nor does any other child. Though my kindergarten teacher was like a mother, she never told us to call her that. Stop making excuses for calling the pope “pope,’ which means father, and stop calling him ‘Holy Father,’ and calling any priest ‘father.’ Start obeying Jesus right now, and do not do sin in that way again. It is simple if you want to obey.
You said: Your understanding of the Bible is not the only understanding. I follow the teaching of the Church that Scripture describes as:
ReplyDeleteEphesians 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
My reply: I prove to you that the Catholic religion is not the Church of the Bible. They did not call anyone ‘father,’ they did not walk around in flowing robes taking the seat of most importance, they did not exalt Mary, they did not have statues and incense them, and many other things they did not do.
You said: I disagree. The WORD OF GOD is passed down in Tradition and Scripture. The New Testament is based upon the Traditions. But since you have rejected the Traditions, you don't have the full context of the Word of God.
My reply: No way would God’s word say it is alright for popes to contradict what He says! Now way ever! If you would desire and love only God’s Word, I tell you, you would have blessings s beyond your imagination.
You said: You are like the child who saw a man wearing a kilt and said, "look daddy, that man is dressed like a woman." The child does not understand the tradition of the Irish and therefore interprets wrongly that which he sees the Irish wear. In the same way, you interpret the NT Scriptures oblivious of the 2000 year old Tradition which gave birth to them. And you gravely err as a result.
My reply: The kilt IS a skirt like a woman’s. The Irish wore those skirts so that when the men were at war, they could squat and relieve themselves while continuing to keep their eye on the enemy. That is right, they did not wear underwear under them for that reason. Since you want to put down the understanding of children, remember, Jesus says to become like little children, unless you do, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven! Any child that reads "do not call any one ‘father,’" they will know that Catholics sin.
You said: St. Paul didn't say, "I am LIKE your father." He said,
1 Corinthians 4:15
New International Version (NIV)
15 Even if you had ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.
My reply: I already explained this a few times. I am like your father does not mean call me father!
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ReplyDeleteYou said: The written word also says,
ReplyDeleteLuke 14:26 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple.
Do you hate your father and mother? If not, then yo can't be a disciple of Christ.
My reply: That is what Jesus said for me to do to get saved, and that is what I did, and Jesus saved me! Many people worry about leaving a religion where their family would disown them, many people worry about leaving a false religion and thus lose many Christian brothers and sisters. Many people even say that if their family and friends were going to Hell, they would rather go with them! Yes, I did exactly what Jesus told me to do…I hated my father and mother, children and everyone else. Lean not on your own understanding, in all your ways acknowledge the Lord, and He will make your path straight.
You said: You seem very paranoid. Are you the only one you trust? God says:
Hebrews 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
My reply: God does not want us to follow people who teach falseness. It is a farcical charge for you to make.
You said: Again, that is a very Protestant attitude. They also disdain the Early Church Fathers like St. Augustine. But we follow them, because they are teachers sent to us by God.
My reply: Augustine was not my ‘father.’ God testified to the words of Paul and the other Apostles testimony! God testified to Paul’s and the other’s testimony with miracles and signs! See Hebrews 2:4; Galatians 3:4-6; 2 Corinthians 12:12; Romans 15:19; Acts 19:11; Acts 8:13; Acts 2:22. In addition, THERE WERE NO SIGN FROM GOD TO TESTIFY TO THE ADDED TRADIIION TEACHINGS OF THE POPES! I say halleluiah to God the Father and Jesus Christ the Son and the Holy Spirit, Amen!
You said: Sure. And again the ancient Church identified those and condemned the heresies. Just as the heresies of Luther and Calvin, many of which you follow today, such as SOLA Scriptura and SOLA fide, were condemned by the Church centuries ago.
My reply: Your religion has murderers, as do Calvin’s religion. There are no such people in the true Church. Are you not ashamed? As for sola scriptura, the reformers do not hold to what the so protest. The reformers practice the false acts of infant baptism, which is not in the Bible. The reformers believe in total depravity, that says no human can believe in God on their own after learning of Jesus…that is nowhere in the Bible.
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ReplyDeleteYou said: You are confusing the Patriarchs of the Old Testament with the Patriarchs of the early Christian Church. Do you not even know that? You really should study to show yourself approved.
ReplyDeleteMy reply: I did not mean to hurt your feelings when I said did you not know… The Pharisees and teacher’s of the law taught and practiced man made rituals. There are no Patriarchs in the early Christian Church.
You said: In fact, you do. For instance, the Scripture we are discussing does not say, "call no man on earth father, except your dad and the patriarchs." It says, "call no man on earth father."
My reply: The Word of God says we are brothers. It is simple and plain to those who want to obey Jesus. The Jews called Abraham ‘father,‘ for centuries before Jesus came to earth. Jesus did not come to take away any title or honor from Abraham and the other Patriarchs.
You said: I am suggesting that the Word of God is rich with meaning which only the man of the Spirit may discern:
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
My reply: There is concern that Catholics do not have the Spirit. If there are true believers in the Catholic religion, then they will come out of that religion. Revelation 18:4 Then I heard another voice from heaven say: "Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues;
You said: You are applying your ways to God. But God's way are far greater.
My reply: Lean not on your own understanding, in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight, see Proverbs 3:5-6. Jesus says that he and the Father will come and make their home with those who love him, and we love him when we obey. Jesus says he will reveal himself to those who love him and obey. Jesus has revealed himself to me. Jesus gave me his Spirit, His Spirit teaches me.
You said: Neither does the Catholic Church. But you do. For instance, disavow Tradition. Which Scripture clearly states, you must keep.
ReplyDeleteMy reply: The Catholic teachings are not God’s Tradition, no matter how many times you claim it is.
You said: Yes I did. But perhaps you didn't understand. I'll repeat. Jesus Christ was speaking metaphorically. As even you admit. You make an exception for biological fathers. We do that as well, but we also recognize the Spiritual Fatherhood of our Spiritual teachers, such as St. Paul described himself.
My reply: I insist that you tell me how you obey Jesus’ command about call no man ‘father.’ You must tell how you and Catholics obey Jesus in call no one ‘father.’
You said: God is my judge. Not you:
1 Corinthians 4: 2Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.3But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. 4For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
My reply: 2 Timothy 2:25 Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,
You said: I obey Christ.
My reply: You are Catholic. You do not obey in many ways. Tell me how you obey God in call no one ‘father.’
You said: You have made a grievous error. I will not be implicated in it. You have fallen away from the true faith. And now, like the Pharisee, you:
Matthew 23:13
King James Version (KJV)
My reply: Catholics are like the Pharisees, and worse.
You said: 13But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
No thank you. I intend to go to heaven. You may keep your traditions of men.
My reply: I only speak the Word of God. What I say is in the scriptures. I already have the kingdom of heaven. I am trying to help you have the kingdom of heaven now too.
ReplyDeleteChristians Truth said... My reply: You should check out what I say and see if it is in the Bible.
It isn't.
Augustine and Origen, and many others went beyond what is written, they even wrote things that nullified the word of God.
On the contrary, it is you who teach things which nullify the Word of God.
My reply: It is not an interpretation.
Yeah, it is.
We have the word of God translated to English and it is plain and simple.
Your interpretation may be simple. But simple doesn't mean correct. You are SIMPLY wrong.
My reply: The Apostles were ‘brothers,’ and they did not call each other ‘father.’ Tell me, how do you obey Jesus' metaphorical command in a literal way? You do not obey it if is metaphorically.
I understand the SPIRIT of the Word.
My reply: I already explained to you that there were fathers and sons there, and John was speaking to them.
And I already explained that Jesus literally said, "call no man on earth, father." And you claim to be interpreting literally.
Are you trying to say that Apostle John was disobeying Jesus by calling all the men there his father?
I am saying that YOUR literal interpretation, applied consistently, makes anyone using the word father disobey God.
No way, John was not calling all those men his father. You would sin and accuse someone else of the same thing just to cover yourself.
That is what you are doing. You accuse others of sin but excuse yourself. The teaching is clear, call no man father, allow no man to call you teacher. Many Christians do both, but you claim yourself exempt from sin. My reply: Paul does not say to call him ‘father.’
Paul describes himself as our father in the Gospel.
My reply: Paul does NOT tell anyone to call him ‘father.’ Jesus DOES tell us NOT to call anyone ‘father.’
Then obey Jesus. But until you do, don't come around trying to exempting yourself from laws which you impose on others. My reply: So what?
He describes himself as our father through the Gospel in Scripture. Have you ever heard the saying, "your word is my command."? That is how we feel about the Word of God. God's Word is our command.
A kindergarten teacher is like a mother to all her students, she teaches, corrects them, probably even loves them, etc. HOWEVER, I did not call my kindergarten teacher ‘mother,’ nor does any other child.
Nor is it a sin to call her mother.
Though my kindergarten teacher was like a mother, she never told us to call her that. Stop making excuses for calling the pope “pope,’ which means father, and stop calling him ‘Holy Father,’ and calling any priest ‘father.’ Start obeying Jesus right now, and do not do sin in that way again. It is simple if you want to obey.
Stop making excuses for twisting the Word of God. God has put over us leaders in the Church which are in charge of our souls and which have begotten us in the Gospel. St. Paul has given us a model to follow and we follow him as we follow Christ. You disregard those parts of Scripture which you want and apply those you want.
Sincerely,
De Maria
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ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteChristians Truth said... My reply: I prove to you that the Catholic religion is not the Church of the Bible.
All you have proven is that you don't understand the Bible.
They did not call anyone ‘father,’
The Tradition of the ancient Churches shows that they did call Priests,
Father, just as we do today.
they did not walk around in flowing robes taking the seat of most importance,
They represent Christ to us and we treat them with utmost honor and respect.
they did not exalt Mary,
Christ did that, the Word of God does that, but you disregard the clear teaching of Scripture:
Luke 1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
they did not have statues
But God authorized the making of them, long before Christ:
Exodus 25:18 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.
and incense them,
But they have incense, even in heaven:
Revelation 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
and many other things they did not do.
Because you don't do them, you claim they did not. But they did. My reply: No way would God’s word say it is alright for popes to contradict what He says! Now way ever! If you would desire and love only God’s Word, I tell you, you would have blessings s beyond your imagination.
The Popes do not contradict God's word. But you do. My reply: The kilt IS a skirt like a woman’s. The Irish wore those skirts so that when the men were at war, they could squat and relieve themselves while continuing to keep their eye on the enemy. That is right, they did not wear underwear under them for that reason. Since you want to put down the understanding of children, remember, Jesus says to become like little children, unless you do, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven! Any child that reads "do not call any one ‘father,’" they will know that Catholics sin.
I am not putting down children who obey and love their parents. That is simply another example of your misunderstanding of Scripture. Scripture itself says:
1 Corinthians 3
1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
But you read that and say, St. Paul puts down children. You lack understanding, like a child who does not understand the different customs of men in the world. You judge everything by your own standards of place and time. In order to understand Scripture you must study to show yourself approved. Simply picking up a Bible isn't enough for you to be a teacher of the faith.
My reply: I already explained this a few times.
Repeating an error doesn't make it right no matter how many times you repeat it.
I am like your father does not mean call me father!
Again, he didn't say, "I am LIKE your father," he said, "I am your father through the Gospel."
Sincerely,
De Maria
De Maria,
ReplyDeleteYou did not let me finish replying to all your previous remarks before making new ones. I do want to say that I must have an answer soon telling me how you obey Jesus in call no one ‘father,’ metaphorically or not tell me how you obey. You have falsely accused me of not obeying Jesus in that command. Why will you not tell me how you obey? I obey Jesus in not calling any one on earth ‘father.’ Jesus says they are my brothers. Jesus knows we have biological fathers, for he speaks of our biological fathers. Jesus does not say do not call your biological father 'father.' Again, Jesus says those in Christ are brothers, and I obey Jesus in not calling any brother 'father.' Tell me how you obey.
Christians Truth said... My reply: That is what Jesus said for me to do to get saved, and that is what I did, and Jesus saved me! Many people worry about leaving a religion where their family would disown them, many people worry about leaving a false religion and thus lose many Christian brothers and sisters. Many people even say that if their family and friends were going to Hell, they would rather go with them! Yes, I did exactly what Jesus told me to do…I hated my father and mother, children and everyone else.
ReplyDeleteI commend you for putting Jesus above all others. But hating your parents is wrong. If you truly believe this is the message of Christ's word, you will have much to answer.
Lean not on your own understanding, in all your ways acknowledge the Lord, and He will make your path straight.
Yeah, Christ said something about those who twisted His Word and did their own thing claiming to do His works:
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
My reply: God does not want us to follow people who teach falseness. It is a farcical charge for you to make.
But wants you to obey those He put in charge of your soul. Who are they in your case? Oh, that's right, you disregard that Scripture
. My reply: Augustine was not my ‘father.’ God testified to the words of Paul and the other Apostles testimony! God testified to Paul’s and the other’s testimony with miracles and signs! See Hebrews 2:4; Galatians 3:4-6; 2 Corinthians 12:12; Romans 15:19; Acts 19:11; Acts 8:13; Acts 2:22. In addition, THERE WERE NO SIGN FROM GOD TO TESTIFY TO THE ADDED TRADIIION TEACHINGS OF THE POPES! I say halleluiah to God the Father and Jesus Christ the Son and the Holy Spirit, Amen!
Lol! That is Catholic Teaching. It is the Catholic Church which taught the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, 300 years after Christ ascended into heaven. Show me the word, Trinity in Scripture?
My reply: Your religion has murderers, as do Calvin’s religion. There are no such people in the true Church. Are you not ashamed?
Which Church are you talking about? Because sinners will be in the true Church until the end. Have you not read in Scripture:
Matthew 13:24-29
King James Version (KJV)
24Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
As for sola scriptura, the reformers do not hold to what the so protest. The reformers practice the false acts of infant baptism, which is not in the Bible. The reformers believe in total depravity, that says no human can believe in God on their own after learning of Jesus…that is nowhere in the Bible.
I'm not defending the Reformers. But your beliefs are much like theirs. You guys pretty much believe what you want and disregard what you want.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Christians Truth said...
ReplyDeleteDe Maria,
You did not let me finish replying to all your previous remarks before making new ones. ....
I'm sorry, I'll stop.
Sincerely,
De Maria
You said: All you have proven is that you don't understand the Bible. The Tradition of the ancient Churches shows that they did call Priests, Father, just as we do today.
ReplyDeleteMy reply: I know and understand God, the LORD! We are not to call priests ‘father.’ Jesus said we are brothers. We are all priests to the Lord. Why do you not love God’s Word?
You said: They represent Christ to us and we treat them with utmost honor and respect.
My reply: They are only men. That is what the Bible says. We are only to worship God.
You said: Christ did that, the Word of God does that, but you disregard the clear teaching of Scripture:
Luke 1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
My reply: God blessed Mary among women. This does not mean above women. We do not go through Mary to get to Jesus, like the Catholics teach.
You said: But God authorized the making of them, long before Christ:
Exodus 25:18 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.
My reply: There is no longer the Temple of God in a building built by human hands. Believers are the temple of God. God did not tell the Catholics to make what He told to Moses. God tells us not to make any image.
You said: But they have incense, even in heaven:
Revelation 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
My reply: How does there being incense in heaven mean for Catholics to incense images and relics? You go against the Word of God. The bronze snake Moses made was destroyed because the Israelites burned incense to it. Does the word of God matter to you at all! Answer me, please.
You said: I am not putting down children who obey and love their parents. That is simply another example of your misunderstanding of Scripture. Scripture itself says:
1 Corinthians 3
1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
But you read that and say, St. Paul puts down children. You lack understanding, like a child who does not understand the different customs of men in the world.
My reply: You are trying to put words in my mouth. Matthew 18:3 And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
The little child in your story about the kilt was correct.
You said: You judge everything by your own standards of place and time. In order to understand Scripture you must study to show yourself approved. Simply picking up a Bible isn't enough for you to be a teacher of the faith.
My reply: I have the Spirit of God. I want to help you to have Him too.
You said: I commend you for putting Jesus above all others. But hating your parents is wrong. If you truly believe this is the message of Christ's word, you will have much to answer.
ReplyDeleteMy reply: I obey Jesus. Jesus also said I had to hate my own life, which I did. Trust God, De Maria, trust God.
You said: Yeah, Christ said something about those who twisted His Word and did their own thing claiming to do His works:
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
My reply: I have not twisted any of God’s words. As for you quoting Matthew 7:21, Jesus is speaking of those who do not obey him.
You said: But wants you to obey those He put in charge of your soul. Who are they in your case? Oh, that's right, you disregard that Scripture
My reply: those who were in charge wrote the word of God. I listen to what they say. How do you get that I do not listen to those God put in charge? I listen to Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Paul, James, Titus, and more from God's Word.
You said: Lol! That is Catholic Teaching. It is the Catholic Church which taught the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, 300 years after Christ ascended into heaven. Show me the word, Trinity in Scripture?
My reply: I do not ever use the word trinity. The word trinity is not in the Bible. If God did not use the word to help us understand, why would I?
You said: Which Church are you talking about? Because sinners will be in the true Church until the end.
My reply: The Church is not a building. The Church is those who are true believers. The Church is the body of Christ.
You said: I'm not defending the Reformers. But your beliefs are much like theirs. You guys pretty much believe what you want and disregard what you want.
My reply: I only believe in what the Word of God says.
You said: I have done so several times. Here it is again:
ReplyDeleteI believe Jesus was speaking metaphorically. And I see that the Apostles did not interpret this command as you do. For they called other men fathers:
My reply: Are you going to tell me or not how you do not sin in calling no one on earth ‘father’?
You said: and I follow that Apostolic Tradition.
My reply: Apostolic Tradition is nowhere in the Bible. In addition, we are not to say we follow men.
You said: Let me explain:
The Mass is a Tradition wherein we assemble together to praise God with one mind and mouth. It is in the Mass that we receive the Sacraments and we are taught the Word of God by our Leaders, the Priests. Sola Scriptura teaches that we don't need any of that. So, I think it would be a good topic to continue.
See me here.
My reply: I will see you there!
You said: I've told you. Here we go again:
Jesus Christ was speaking metaphorically. As even you admit. You make an exception for biological fathers. We do that as well, but we also recognize the Spiritual Fatherhood of our Spiritual teachers, such as St. Paul described himself.
My reply: I did NOT say Jesus was speaking metaphorically! I want you to tell me how you obey Jesus in call no one ‘father.’ Explain how you obey Jesus if it was metaphorical or not---HOW DO YOU OBEY THAT COMMAND.
You said: I hope you will continue our discussion in my new article, a link is provided above.
My reply: I am seriously considering not discussing with you any longer if you do not tell me how you do not sin in calling no one ‘father.’ I do not call any brother in Christ ‘father.’ It is your turn.
You said: St. Paul didn't say, "I am LIKE your father." He said,
ReplyDelete1 Corinthians 4:15
New International Version (NIV)
15 Even if you had ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.
My reply: I already explained this a few times. Apostle Paul did NOT tell anyone to call him 'father.'
Christians Truth said...
ReplyDeleteMy reply: I did not mean to hurt your feelings when I said did you not know…
My feelings are not hurt. But you seem not to know that
Christians also have Patriarchs.
The Pharisees and teacher’s of the law taught and practiced man made rituals. There are no Patriarchs in the early Christian Church.
That just proves that you don't know much about the early Christian Church:
Patriarchs of the Christian Church My reply: The Word of God says we are brothers. It is simple and plain to those who want to obey Jesus.
It makes no exception. You are reading that into the Scripture.
The Jews called Abraham ‘father,‘ for centuries before Jesus came to earth. Jesus did not come to take away any title or honor from Abraham and the other Patriarchs.
Thank you. But you are reading inconsistently. Excusing yourself but at the same time applying to Catholics, things which are not intended by the text.
My reply: There is concern that Catholics do not have the Spirit.
There is concern that the Spirit does not dwell in many OUTSIDE the
Catholic Church.
If there are true believers in the Catholic religion, then they will come out of that religion. Revelation 18:4
Revelation 18:4 is not about the Catholic Church. It is about Jerusalem, that great city where our Lord was killed. See verses:
Rev 17: 18And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
Rev 11: 8And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. . The Kings of the earth gathered in Jerusalem to crucify Christ.
Another instance where it is clear that you interpret Scripture falsely.
Then I heard another voice from heaven say: "Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues;
History is replete with the suffering of the Jewish people who did not come out of Jerusalem. In 77ad, it was destroyed, not a stone was left upon a stone:
Matthew 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
My reply: Lean not on your own understanding, in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight, see Proverbs 3:5-6.
Between you and I, it is you leaning upon your understanding. You have admitted you listen to no man in direct contradiction of the Word of God:
Hebrews 6:12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
Jesus says that he and the Father will come and make their home with those who love him, and we love him when we obey. Jesus says he will reveal himself to those who love him and obey. Jesus has revealed himself to me. Jesus gave me his Spirit, His Spirit teaches me.
True. There remains hope that God will teach you and bring you back to His Church. You must accept His grace.
Sincerely,
De Maria
December 1, 2011 7:13 PM
ReplyDeleteChristians Truth said...
My reply: The Catholic teachings are not God’s Tradition, no matter how many times you claim it is.
I guess we disagree on the topic of whether you or we keep God's Traditions.
My reply: I insist that you tell me how you obey Jesus’ command about call no man ‘father.’ You must tell how you and Catholics obey Jesus in call no one ‘father.’
I've told you, we obey the same way the Apostles obeyed. The Apostles understood that Jesus did not issue a command and therefore continued using the words, "teacher, rabbi, and father" towards other men. Therefore, Jesus did not issue a command, but was speaking metaphorically, just as He did when He said, "he who doesn't hate father and mother is not worthy of me". You hate your parents because they didn't follow you out of the Church. But, in so doing, you disobey Our Lord:
Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
So, if you believe Christ is telling you to hate your parents, you gravely err.
My reply: 2 Timothy 2:25 Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,
And YOU oppose Christ in many ways.
My reply: You are Catholic. You do not obey in many ways.
On the contrary, it is the Catholic Church which teaches the Wisdom of God throughout the world.
Tell me how you obey God in call no one ‘father.’
I have, several times. Christ made no such command. He was speaking metaphorically.
My reply: Catholics are like the Pharisees, and worse.
Noooo. The Catholic Church is the Pillar of Truth (1 Tim 3:15).
My reply: I only speak the Word of God. What I say is in the scriptures. I already have the kingdom of heaven. I am trying to help you have the kingdom of heaven now too.
My friend, if you do not have the Sacraments of the Catholic Church, you are not yet in the Kingdom of Heaven:
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Sincerely,
De Maria
ReplyDeleteChristians Truth said...
My reply: I know and understand God, the LORD! We are not to call priests ‘father.’ Jesus said we are brothers. We are all priests to the Lord. Why do you not love God’s Word?
1. It is true, we are all Priests. But some Priests are greater than others. Christ said:
Luke 22: 26But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
27For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.28Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.
The priests of the Catholic Church are they which serve the people of God.
2. I do love the Word of God. It is on my mind anPsalm 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.d in my heart at all times.
My reply: They are only men. That is what the Bible says. We are only to worship God.
We don't worship our priests. We honor them as the Word of God commands we should:
Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
My reply: God blessed Mary among women.
And commands that you should also.
This does not mean above women.
Yes, it does. Scripture does not command you to bless any other woman.
We do not go through Mary to get to Jesus, like the Catholics teach.
In fact, Scripture says we do. Rev 12:17 says:
Revelation 12:17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Note that those who oppose Satan are all children (i.e. seed) of Mary.
cont'd
cont'd
ReplyDeleteChristians Truth said:
My reply: There is no longer the Temple of God in a building built by human hands. Believers are the temple of God. God did not tell the Catholics to make what He told to Moses. God tells us not to make any image.
God tells us not to make images AND worship them. The making of images for other purposes is not forbidden.
My reply: How does there being incense in heaven mean for Catholics to incense images and relics? You go against the Word of God. The bronze snake Moses made was destroyed because the Israelites burned incense to it. Does the word of God matter to you at all! Answer me, please.
We don't worship any images. Therefore, burning incense before them is not wrong. For a Catholic, incense represents:
1. The purifying grace of God as it represents the Shekinah cloud:
Leviticus 16:2 And the LORD said unto Moses, Speak unto Aaron thy brother, that he come not at all times into the holy place within the vail before the mercy seat, which is upon the ark; that he die not: for I will appear in the cloud upon the mercy seat.
Leviticus 16:13 And he shall put the incense upon the fire before the LORD, that the cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat that is upon the testimony, that he die not:
2. The prayers the people offer to God:
Revelation 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
The little child in your story about the kilt was correct.
He was wrong. But I'm glad you said that as it highlights the method you use to understand Scripture. You actually believe that Scripture was written in English. But it wasn't. It was written in a language foreign to anyone living today. And in order to understand it correctly, one must understand their customs. Otherwise, we will be like the child who thought the Irish man was trying to dress like a woman.
My reply: I have the Spirit of God. I want to help you to have Him too.
I also believe I have the Spirit of God. And the Spirit of God does not contradict Himself. One of us is wrong? Whom did God place on this earth to determine between the judgements of men?
Matthew 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
I hereby invite you to go to a Catholic Church, that your errors may be corrected. Listen to Her as you would listen to Christ. For that is exactly who speaks through the Church.
Sincerely,
De Maria
Christians Truth said...
ReplyDeleteMy reply: I obey Jesus. Jesus also said I had to hate my own life, which I did. Trust God, De Maria, trust God.
I do. That is why I obey the Church:
Ephesians 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
My reply: I have not twisted any of God’s words. As for you quoting Matthew 7:21, Jesus is speaking of those who do not obey him.
According to my understanding of Scripture, you are twisting God's words and as a result disobeying Him.
My reply: those who were in charge wrote the word of God.
God's word doesn't say that there will come a time when no man is in charge.
I listen to what they say. How do you get that I do not listen to those God put in charge? I listen to Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Paul, James, Titus, and more from God's Word.
And they passed down their authority:
Acts 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
And also:
2 Timothy 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
Jesus established an ongoing concern. A Church that would never fail. It continues to this day, in the Catholic Church.
My reply: I do not ever use the word trinity. The word trinity is not in the Bible. If God did not use the word to help us understand, why would I?
Perfect!!! Thanks for letting us know that essentially, you hold to a private religion. You believe only that which occurs to you. But the Word of God doesn't say to make up our own religions:
Romans 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
My reply: The Church is not a building. The Church is those who are true believers. The Church is the body of Christ.
Amen! But you didn't answer the question. Scripture says that sinners will be in the Church until the end.
My reply: I only believe in what the Word of God says.
No. You only believe your interpretation of the Word of God. But your interpretation is wrong.
Sincerely,
De Maria
ReplyDeleteChristians Truth said...My reply: Are you going to tell me or not how you do not sin in calling no one on earth ‘father’?
I have, you and I disagree in that you believe it is a literal command. Whereas, I believe it is a metaphor highlighting the preeminence of God's Fatherhood. Therefore, no need to take it literally.
My reply: Apostolic Tradition is nowhere in the Bible. In addition, we are not to say we follow men.
Hebrews 6:12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
1 Corinthians 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
My reply: I will see you there!
Great! My reply: I did NOT say Jesus was speaking metaphorically!
But you don't take Him literally as you ignore the words, call "no man on earth" father.
I want you to tell me how you obey Jesus in call no one ‘father.’ Explain how you obey Jesus if it was metaphorical or not---HOW DO YOU OBEY THAT COMMAND.
It is a metaphor, not a command.
My reply: I am seriously considering not discussing with you any longer if you do not tell me how you do not sin in calling no one ‘father.’ I do not call any brother in Christ ‘father.’ It is your turn.
If it were a command, I would sin. But it isn't, it is a metaphor.
And you are in the same boat as that which you put me. Because Jesus said, "call no man on earth father". But you have admitted that you call some men, father, therefore, you also sin.
I hope you change your mind.
Sincerely,
De Maria
ReplyDeleteChristians Truth said... My reply: I already explained this a few times. Apostle Paul did NOT tell anyone to call him 'father.'
I think it is clear to everyone that you and I disagree on this point. I believe the Apostle Paul was describing himself as our Spiritual Father. And as a Bishop and Priest of the Church, he represents all the Bishops and Priests, whom we call father in obedience to his word.
Sincerely,
De Maria
You said: I think it is clear to everyone that you and I disagree on this point. I believe the Apostle Paul was describing himself as our Spiritual Father. And as a Bishop and Priest of the Church, he represents all the Bishops and Priests, whom we call father in obedience to his word.
ReplyDeleteMy reply: Apostle Paul did not tell anyone to call him father! No one in the Bible called Apostle Paul father. That is how one does not sin, by not calling anyone of the brothers ‘father.’ They just did not do it. However, you Catholics sin by calling your brothers 'father.'
You said: God tells us not to make images AND worship them.
ReplyDeleteMy reply: God says do not even make for yourself an image.
You said: The making of images for other purposes is not forbidden.
My reply: Catholics bow to images and the priest do too, and the priests even incense them. This is a sin against God.
You said:We don't worship any images. Therefore, burning incense before them is not wrong. For a Catholic, incense represents:
My reply: Do not incense them! Do not even make them!
You said: 1. The purifying grace of God as it represents the Shekinah cloud:
Leviticus 16:2 And the LORD said unto Moses, Speak unto Aaron thy brother, that he come not at all times into the holy place within the vail before the mercy seat, which is upon the ark; that he die not: for I will appear in the cloud upon the mercy seat.
My reply: Do you not know what happened to Aaron’s sons? Leviticus 10:1 Aaron's sons Nadab and Abihu took their censers, put fire in them and added incense; and they offered unauthorized fire before the LORD, contrary to his command.
Do you not know that God does not tell the Catholics to incense statues, images, and relics! The Catholics are in danger of having done what happened to Aaron's sons. Tell me, what happened to Aaron's sons, and why?
You said: He was wrong. But I'm glad you said that as it highlights the method you use to understand Scripture. You actually believe that Scripture was written in English.
My reply: Bearing false witness means nothing to you.
You said: I also believe I have the Spirit of God. And the Spirit of God does not contradict Himself. One of us is wrong? Whom did God place on this earth to determine between the judgements of men?
My reply: You go against the Word of God. I pray you start obeying Jesus today.
You said: I have, you and I disagree in that you believe it is a literal command. Whereas, I believe it is a metaphor highlighting the preeminence of God's Fatherhood. Therefore, no need to take it literally.
ReplyDeleteMy reply: That is evil.
You said: Hebrews 6:12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
My reply: This is what Hebrews 6:12 says, 12 We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.
We are to imitate those who are following the faith.
You said: 1 Corinthians 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
My reply: 1 Corinthians 11:1 says, “Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.”
That does not mean we can say, “I follow Peter.” Read these scriptures, and know that the Catholic religion sins also by saying they are following Peter, as the popes believe they are successors of Peter!
1 Corinthians 1:11-12 My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas"; still another, "I follow Christ." 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul?
1 Corinthians 3:1Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men? 4For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere men?
5What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. 7So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. 9For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.
1 Corinthians 3:18 Do not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a "fool" so that he may become wise. 19For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness“; 20and again, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile.” 21So then, no more boasting about men! All things are yours, 22whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, 23and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God.
1 Corinthians 4:6 Now brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written.” Then you will not take pride in one man over against another.
Catholics claim Apostolic Succession from Apostle Peter. However, the word of God tells us of no such thing; God’s word forbids us to have favoritism over the apostles.
You say: But you don't take Him literally as you ignore the words, call "no man on earth" father.
My reply: You are a liar. I do not ignore Jesus’ words. I do not call brothers in Christ ‘father.’ Jesus called our biological fathers ‘father’!
You said: It is a metaphor, not a command.
My reply: It is a command that you do not obey. You do not only just not obey that command, you also proudly call brothers ‘father.’
You said: If it were a command, I would sin. But it isn't, it is a metaphor.
My reply: You sin deliberately and glaringly so. I do not even believe you know what a metaphor means. Metaphor or not, you disobey Jesus Christ.