Rewind: Salvation by faith and works in Scripture

Originally posted: Saturday, August 20, 2011

I am discussing faith and works salvation with Ken on the Beggars All Reformation Blog.  However, a complete response was impossible because of the character count.  For anyone interested, I am posting it here.  Ken's words are in blue and indented.:

De Maria,

Hello Ken.

Thanks for admitting up front that Roman Catholicism is a "faith plus works" salvation system.

It is the teaching of Scripture:

Romans 2:

King James Version (KJV)

6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

The Romans 2:13 quote is not meant to stand alone but is in the middle of Paul's argument, which I already noted before - follow it through all the way to Romans 3:28 and even Romans 4:1-16 and 5:1-11.

I have a different understanding than yours:

Romans 2:13

(For not the he
arers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall bejustified.

In other words, doing the law doesn't automatically justify anyone. But not doing the law automatically condemns. Because those who are justified will only come from the set of people who do the works of the law.

God selects and justifies only from the group of men who do the works of the law.  Not from those who do not keep His Law.

Example:

A man is an unrepentant murderer and sinner. He will never be justified by God because he rejects the law. He will be condemned.  Scripture says elsewhere:

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Therefore, if you read Romans 2, it says:

Romans 2

⁴Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

⁵But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

⁶Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

⁷To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

⁸But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

⁹Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

¹⁰But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

¹¹For there is no respect of persons with God.

A man keeps the law in obedience to Christ:

Galatians 3:24

King James Version (KJV)

²⁴Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

The Revelation 22:14 passage is a textual variant.
The best manuscripts read,
"Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they might have the right to eat of the tree of life . . . "

In fact, that is what the Douay says.  However, in either case, whether washing one's robes or keeping the Commandments, works are highlighted as essential for eternal life.

see Rev. 7:14 - only by the washing/cleansing of the blood of the lamb - faith in His atonement - Romans 3:25-26 - only by His work on the cross is someone saved.

Which brings us to the Mass and the Sacraments.

Roman Catholicism is a “faith plus works” salvation system, because

Because Scripture teaches a faith plus works salvation system.

 you must do good works all through your life to gain back your justification,

You must also do good all your life. Or do you think you can sin and sin mightily and still inherit the Kingdom of heaven. Read the Rev: 22:15:

Revelation 22:15

King James Version (KJV)

 15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

started with baptism

It starts before Baptism. For one must have faith in order to be justified and Baptism is the washing of regeneration and the renewal of the Holy Spirit. One can't approach Baptism without faith demonstrated in works of love.

(either infant 

Infant baptism is a separate. Jesus Christ said, let the little children come to me (Matt 19:14) and Acts 2:39 says that Baptism is for us and for our children.

or conversion baptism); but which you lost by the commission of mortal sin. 

Never heard of conversion baptism. Nor did I know that you could read my soul and determine that I had committed a mortal sin.

The Roman Church claims “by faith through grace alone”,

Grace alone is a Protestant doctrine. The Catholic Church recognizes that all is grace, but does not teach grace alone.

 but upon deeper investigation, it means that there are works one must do in order keep getting grace until final perseverance and getting scrubbed clean in purgatory and passing through it, and in order to stay in a state of grace. (baptism, partaking of the Lord’s supper, obeying the Ten Commandments, confession to the priest, prayers to Mary for dispensing of grace from the treasury of merit; or some other saint; visiting saints graves, etc. fasting, extended times of more prayer, meditation, giving to the poor; doing what the priest says as the satisfaction aspect of penance, etc.) These things are contradictions to “by grace alone” (hence they contradict faith alone – Romans 4:16) and they contradict “not by our own works”. You don’t get grace dispensed to you from the treasury of merit, unless you do the works; and that only comes to you after you do those things; those good works, ceremonies, communion (partaking of the Lord’s Supper), hail Marys, prayers, fastings, almsgiving, and obeying the Ten Commandments, etc.<

No. 2068 in the RCC Catechism says, “The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians . . . so that all men may obtain salvation through faith, Baptism, and the observance of the Commandments.” ( p. 502, Catechism of the Catholic Church, Liberia Editrice Vatinaa, Imprimi Potest, Cardinal Ratzinger, 1994.

This is contradictory to RC claims that it is “not by our own works” and contradictory to “by grace alone”.
Also, the Catechism says:
No. 2010 “Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life.” ( Ibid, p. 487)

I would love to discuss every single doctrine you've brought up. However, it is impossible for me to do so all at once. I simply don't have the time. However, I invite you to discuss each and everyone of those things with me, one at a time so that we can investigate them thoroughly and compare them to Scripture. Not only the Catholic doctrine, but also YOUR alternative.

Sincerely,

De Maria

The Perspicuity of Scripture on Sola Scriptura?

On the Beggars all site I'm having this exchange with Mr. James Swan:

The Perspicuity of 2 Maccabees 12 on Purgatory?

 De Maria said...

In this discussion over whether Purgatory is in Scripture, you seem to require an explicit text.

Yet, when asked to provide an explicit text for Sola Scriptura, you and others on this blog, denied that explicit texts were necessary to prove doctrine.

Is there an explanation for this seeming discrepancy?

Sincerely,

De Maria

10:35 PM, September 22, 2011

 James Swan said...

Beggars All: Reformation And Apologetics: The Canon as Infallible Sacred Tradition

Absolutely, the Canon is a part of Sacred Tradition. Jesus Christ only established Tradition. And the Apostles and Disciples were first inspired to preach the New Testament and then to write it.

I've been having a grand old time on Ken's blog. And so, I'd like to take a break from reviewing Dr. Mizzi's articles. God willing, I'll get back to those later.

On Ken's blog, we are discussing Sacred Tradition and Sola Scriptura. The Protestant stance seems to be that:

1. Scripture alone is infallible.

2. Therefore Sacred Tradition can't be infallible.

The Catholic position is this.

Faith and works in Scripture cont'd

continued from this article:

I thought I would be discussing faith and works salvation with Ken on the Beggars All Reformation Blog.  However, my last comment is gathering dust.  No one to talk to.  But rather than sit around feeling sorry for myself, I remember that  Ken had submitted a comment which amounted to a shotgun blast of objections to Catholic Teaching.  Too many to respond to at one sitting.  So, I had set it aside assuming my time would be tied up in a hot debate which never occurred.  Oh well, that means I have time to respond to the previously ignored comments.  So, for anyone interested, here we go.  Ken's words are in blue and indented:

but upon deeper investigation, (of the Catholic faith) it means that there are works one must do in order keep getting grace until final perseverance

Well, yes, that's in Scripture.

Romans 2:13
For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Protestants believe that justification is a one time event, but it is clear from Scripture that it is done throughout our life.  And justification is the remission of sin which is only done by an infusion of grace.

As Scripture says:

James 4:6
But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

God gives grace to the humble that they may serve Him in reverence and godly fear:

Hebrews 12:28
Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

But God does not give grace to the proud.  He, in fact, permits Satan to punish them that they may saved on the day of Judgement:

1 Corinthians 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in theday of the Lord Jesus.

 and getting scrubbed clean in purgatory and passing through it, 

What would a Protestant discussion be like without an objection to the existence of Purgatory.  Let us look at the Scriptures.  First, my favorite:

1 Corinthians 3:15

King James Version (KJV)

 ¹⁵If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


Who is this poor fella who is saved passing through fire and where is he?


Protestants have no answer.  But Catholic Teaching does.  That poor fellow is anyone who dies in an imperfect state of grace and he is in Purgatory.


And what about this verse:

1 Peter 3:19

King James Version (KJV)

 ¹⁹By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Where is this place which Scripture calls a prison within which spirits are incarcerated?

Protestants have no answer.  Only Catholic Teaching.  It is again Purgatory.

There are many more, but one final one:

Revelation 2:10
Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

A prison, where the righteous are sent before they receive a crown of life?  No answer from Protestantism.  Only Catholic Teaching.  It is Purgatory.

and in order to stay in a state of grace. 

More accurately, in order to be purified and restored to a perfect state of grace and holiness without which one can not see God:

King James Version (KJV)

 ¹⁴Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

(baptism,

The first of the Seven Sacraments.  The Mighty Works of God which we accept by faith, believing in His Promises.  And which washes and regenerates us, renewing our souls as we call upon His Name:

Acts 22:16

King James Version (KJV)

 ¹⁶And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

 partaking of the Lord’s supper,

Amen!  For it is by the eating of His Flesh and drinking of His Blood that we attain eternal life:

John 6:54

King James Version (KJV)

 ⁵⁴Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

obeying the Ten Commandments,

Yes indeed.  For so says Scripture:

Revelation 22:14

King James Version (KJV)

 ¹⁴Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

confession to the priest,

Jesus Christ gave His Church the power to forgive sins:

John 20:23

King James Version (KJV)

 ²³Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.


And God's word tells us to submit and obey those whom God gave responsibility over our souls:

Hebrews 13:17
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

prayers to Mary for dispensing of grace from the treasury of merit; or some other saint;

Indeed.  This particular teaching is a bit more complex as it entails the combination of several doctrines.  First of all, prayer to Mary, especially praise, is taught in Scripture, if you know how to find it:  See this post.


Next, the dispensing of grace from the treasury of merit is called an indulgence.  The fact that this treasury exists is in Scripture:

Mark 12:43

King James Version (KJV)

 ⁴³And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:

Combined with the fact that Jesus, all grace, came to us through Mary.  And the fact that God is absolute, and we come to understand that we must all come to Jesus, all grace, through Mary.  Which is why God gave her to us as our Mother:

Revelation 12:17

King James Version (KJV)

 ¹⁷And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Whew!  I'll take a break here.  But I'll continue dismantling this objection to Catholic Teaching in the next post.  For your information, the remainder of the offending comment follows. 

visiting saints graves, etc. fasting, extended times of more prayer, meditation, giving to the poor; doing what the priest says as the satisfaction aspect of penance, etc.) These things are contradictions to “by grace alone” (hence they contradict faith alone – Romans 4:16) and they contradict “not by our own works”. You don’t get grace dispensed to you from the treasury of merit, unless you do the works; and that only comes to you after you do those things; those good works, ceremonies, communion (partaking of the Lord’s Supper), hail Marys, prayers, fastings, almsgiving, and obeying the Ten Commandments, etc.<

No. 2068 in the RCC Catechism says, “The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians . . . so that all men may obtain salvation through faith, Baptism, and the observance of the Commandments.” ( p. 502, Catechism of the Catholic Church, Liberia Editrice Vatinaa, Imprimi Potest, Cardinal Ratzinger, 1994.

This is contradictory to RC claims that it is “not by our own works” and contradictory to “by grace alone”.
Also, the Catechism says:
No. 2010 “Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life.” ( Ibid, p. 487)

Sincerely,


De Maria 

Salvation by faith and works in Scripture

I am discussing faith and works salvation with Ken on the Beggars All Reformation Blog.  However, a complete response was impossible because of the character count.  For anyone interested, I am posting it here.  Ken's words are in blue and indented.:

De Maria,

Hello Ken.

Thanks for admitting up front that Roman Catholicism is a "faith plus works" salvation system.

It is the teaching of Scripture:

Romans 2:

King James Version (KJV)

6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

The Romans 2:13 quote is not meant to stand alone but is in the middle of Paul's argument, which I already noted before - follow it through all the way to Romans 3:28 and even Romans 4:1-16 and 5:1-11.

I have a different understanding than yours:

Romans 2:13

(For not the he
arers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall bejustified.

In other words, doing the law doesn't automatically justify anyone. But not doing the law automatically condemns. Because those who are justified will only come from the set of people who do the works of the law.

God selects and justifies only from the group of men who do the works of the law.  Not from those who do not keep His Law.

Example:

A man is an unrepentant murderer and sinner. He will never be justified by God because he rejects the law. He will be condemned.  Scripture says elsewhere:

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Therefore, if you read Romans 2, it says:

Romans 2

⁴Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

⁵But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

⁶Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

⁷To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

⁸But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

⁹Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

¹⁰But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

¹¹For there is no respect of persons with God.

A man keeps the law in obedience to Christ:

Galatians 3:24

King James Version (KJV)

²⁴Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

The Revelation 22:14 passage is a textual variant.
The best manuscripts read,
"Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they might have the right to eat of the tree of life . . . "

In fact, that is what the Douay says.  However, in either case, whether washing one's robes or keeping the Commandments, works are highlighted as essential for eternal life.

see Rev. 7:14 - only by the washing/cleansing of the blood of the lamb - faith in His atonement - Romans 3:25-26 - only by His work on the cross is someone saved.

Which brings us to the Mass and the Sacraments.

Roman Catholicism is a “faith plus works” salvation system, because

Because Scripture teaches a faith plus works salvation system.

 you must do good works all through your life to gain back your justification,

You must also do good all your life. Or do you think you can sin and sin mightily and still inherit the Kingdom of heaven. Read the Rev: 22:15:

Revelation 22:15

King James Version (KJV)

 15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

started with baptism

It starts before Baptism. For one must have faith in order to be justified and Baptism is the washing of regeneration and the renewal of the Holy Spirit. One can't approach Baptism without faith demonstrated in works of love.

(either infant 

Infant baptism is a separate. Jesus Christ said, let the little children come to me (Matt 19:14) and Acts 2:39 says that Baptism is for us and for our children.

or conversion baptism); but which you lost by the commission of mortal sin. 

Never heard of conversion baptism. Nor did I know that you could read my soul and determine that I had committed a mortal sin.

The Roman Church claims “by faith through grace alone”,

Grace alone is a Protestant doctrine. The Catholic Church recognizes that all is grace, but does not teach grace alone.

 but upon deeper investigation, it means that there are works one must do in order keep getting grace until final perseverance and getting scrubbed clean in purgatory and passing through it, and in order to stay in a state of grace. (baptism, partaking of the Lord’s supper, obeying the Ten Commandments, confession to the priest, prayers to Mary for dispensing of grace from the treasury of merit; or some other saint; visiting saints graves, etc. fasting, extended times of more prayer, meditation, giving to the poor; doing what the priest says as the satisfaction aspect of penance, etc.) These things are contradictions to “by grace alone” (hence they contradict faith alone – Romans 4:16) and they contradict “not by our own works”. You don’t get grace dispensed to you from the treasury of merit, unless you do the works; and that only comes to you after you do those things; those good works, ceremonies, communion (partaking of the Lord’s Supper), hail Marys, prayers, fastings, almsgiving, and obeying the Ten Commandments, etc.<

No. 2068 in the RCC Catechism says, “The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians . . . so that all men may obtain salvation through faith, Baptism, and the observance of the Commandments.” ( p. 502, Catechism of the Catholic Church, Liberia Editrice Vatinaa, Imprimi Potest, Cardinal Ratzinger, 1994.

This is contradictory to RC claims that it is “not by our own works” and contradictory to “by grace alone”.
Also, the Catechism says:
No. 2010 “Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life.” ( Ibid, p. 487)

I would love to discuss every single doctrine you've brought up. However, it is impossible for me to do so all at once. I simply don't have the time. However, I invite you to discuss each and everyone of those things with me, one at a time so that we can investigate them thoroughly and compare them to Scripture. Not only the Catholic doctrine, but also YOUR alternative.

Sincerely,

De Maria