Salvation by grace in the Sacraments - 5

 

De Maria

1 day ago

 BL- The catholic church goes to the scriptures for most of their doctrines , goes beyond scripture to find the other doctrines . They wrote the CCC so you would know what the church believes as after all you are not allowed to question the church. The CCC has errors within it's pages but you are not allowed to question those errors. DM-Bob, Jesus Christ did not say that all doctrines are to be found in Scripture. In fact, even you keep doctrines that can't be found in Scripture. In fact, Jesus Christ did not command that any Scripture be written. The Catholic Church wrote the New Testament in order to supplement Her Teaching of Jesus Christ's commands. There are no errors in Catholic Teaching because Christ Teaches through His Church. And no, no one is allowed to question the Church. Listen to Scripture: 2 Thessalonians 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. And again: Galatians 1:8 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. BL-When I look for God I find Jesus Christ ,not an organization with claims. DM-Everyone will find Christ in the end, but how will He respond to you? Matt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. We obey Christ and follow Him through His Church, which He established to lead us to salvation. BL-The church is the body of believers in the Lord Jesus Christ ,not a small group making decisions worldwide. Eph 2:20-22 sums up the church I know. DM-Do you mean that you discard all the other Scriptures about the Church. Let's see, you deny that the Church is an organization. What does Scripture say: 1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. The Catholic Church fits all the verses of Scripture. But you pick some and deny others. Who put you above Scripture? BL- My comments are made for you to question a group that claims authority when it does not have it , has doctrines and traditions that do not line up with scripture and to get you to look at what you believe and prove to yourself that what you have been taught is correct. DM-Well, Bob. Let's line up your teachings and the Catholic Church's with Scripture and see which one's line up the best. It is the Catholic Church which wrote the New Testament and selected the Old Testament books which should be included in the Bible you carry today. Ephesians 3:10 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Catholic Doctrine is from Christ

Rk May 8, 2013 at 4:59 pm
So far, only having glanced over this, I spotted one thing very new

Very new TO YOU. Catholic Doctrine has been around from the time of the Apostles. It is Christ who taught Catholic Doctrine.

– that Catholics believe in initial justification and then increasing ‘justification’ (I suppose ‘sanctification’ is yet another thing)

You would be wrong. There is no such term as “initial justification” in the Catholic soteriology. Conversion is the beginning of Justification. Perhaps that is what you are confusing with the so-called “initial justification”. After conversion, one requests Baptism and is completely justified for the first time. If (or should I say, when) one commits sins after Baptism, then one must repent and ask forgiveness in the Sacrament of Reconciliation and one is justified once more. This process of repeated washings by the grace of the Holy Spirit in the Sacraments continues throughout our life.

Sanctification is the process of adopting holy habits and becoming a more righteous individual and goes hand in hand with the process of justification.

This definitive and progressive justification (akin to protestant definitive and progressive sanctification?)

I don’t know anything about Protestant sanctification. But the Catholic Church teaches that we adopt holy habits and become holy as God is holy. As we add to our faith, knowledge and all good virtues, we make our election sure and attain to the heights of righteousness without which one will not see God.
Revelation 22:12-15
King James Version (KJV)
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

However, I have heard that the Protestants consider Justification only a forensic or legal thing where the creature is not truly changed.

But for the Catholic, we believe that the creature is new born when God washes Him in the waters of regeneration. And we believe our souls are truly cleansed in the fount of Sacramental confession. And that we become united to God in the Sacrament of Holy Eucharist.

does explain to me why my Catholic friends are so relaxed about their own salvation when I had thought that catholic teaching would permit no such grounds.

I’m not sure what you mean by that? Perhaps you are comparing the Protestant preoccupation with salvation to the Catholic knowledge that God is our Judge. We are not preoccupied with judging our souls nor those of others because we trust in God and hope in Him. The Scripture says:

1 Corinthians 4:2-5
King James Version (KJV)
2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful. 3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man’s judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self. 4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

It seems a bit like ‘now you see it; now you don’t’ carrot and stick. To the wayward, the Church can say they will be judged on final works (other than as covered by confession/penance which will be sorted out in purgatory). For the nervous, Mother Church can remind them of their baptism and their initial but adequate justification.
I have put it crudely and I apologise, but the danger of this is that it produces ‘tightrope’ salvation based on a ‘tightrope’ state of mind of supplicant. It is not so much that God’s mercy overwhelms his justice, but that both hang in the balance and the supplicant must walk warily between Scylla and Charybdis.
In the case of my friends, perhaps they are nervous when with the priest and wayward out of church??? possible, surely

More likely, you don’t understand either Catholic soteriology nor Protestant. As for your friends, I don’t know them. If you don’t think they understand Catholic Doctrine, send them to the Catholic Church. But please don’t try to teach them anything about the Catholic Church yourself. Because it is obvious that you don’t understand the Catholic Teaching.

Sincerely,

De Maria