Saved by grace in the Sacraments - 7

 

De Maria

3 hours ago (edited)

 BL-Purgatory and indulgences are both taught as truth but the only way to provide biblical verses to prove them is by taking verses out of context. DM-Ok, well thanks for taking up the challenge. DM-Let's see. Thanks for combining Purgatory and indulgences since they are basically the same Teaching. Both are based on the fact that there is a Heavenly Treasury where our good works are stored and God uses them to cleanse our souls of sin. BL-Well that sounds good but can you back that " based on the fact that " up with scripture? DM-Yes. Jesus said: Matt 6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven How do we do that? In that chapter, Jesus named many things we must do. verse 1-4 give alms verse 5-12 pray verse 13-15 forgive verse 16-19 fast These lead to the conclusion that if we do all these things, we lay up treasure in heaven. Do you have an alternate understanding of this chapter? BL-God uses our good works to cleanse our souls of sin ? So all we need to do is accept Tobit 12:9 as truth and we no longer need Jesus dieing on the cross for all of our sins and washing us in His blood to cleabnse us of all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9 DM-Sounds as though you want to be rid of the entire Bible and rely only on Tobit 12:9. Whereas, we accept the entire Bible. But lets focus on Jesus death on the Cross for a moment. You seem to believe that He died on the Cross in order that you would not have to do anything else, but skip your way into heaven. Whereas, Scripture clearly says: Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. And again: 1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: That clearly states that Jesus died in order to illicit a response from us. Not in order that you will no longer do anything else. 2 Corinthians 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. DM- There are many Scriptures to support both Teachings, but here is one, show me where it is out of context: Luke 12:33Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth. BL-You are focusing on heaven not worldly wealth that is fleeting at best. DM-You're right. I am focusing on heaven. And not on worldly wealth. Jesus said that by giving away our worldly wealth (ie almsgiving), we accumulate treasure in heaven. It sounds as though Jesus is saying we can buy our way into heaven. Now, please try again. I don't see how I'm taking it out of context. I am focusing on heaven. That's what we are supposed to do. I don't think you mean to tell me that focusing on heaven is an error. Scripture says: Matthew 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. DM-Notice that Jesus is Teaching us to buy our way into heaven. BL-Where do you get the idea besides Tobit that you can buy your way into heaven? DM-There where Jesus says to give alms, which is the giving of money to the poor or to the Church. He describes this action as producing an accumulation of treasure in heaven. BL-With our alms we buy bags of heavenly treasure. With what we do we do for God not for something. DM-Really? God needs our coin? For what? DM-Question, what is the heavenly treasure for? Answer, to release us from Purgatory. BL-You can not be released from a place that does not exist. DM-Then what is this place? 1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; BL-If purgatory did exist you would find Jesus and the apostles teaching about the afterlife and a final cleanup. You do not because there is no need for any final cleanup and everything that is unclean will not be in heaven and Jesus has made you clean. DM-They do teach and it can be found in many places. See here: Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. DM-What is another name for the heavenly treasure? Indulgences. BL-Amazing how you can believe what you write! DM-And I can back it up. BL-A verse out of context. What is therefore there for? It tells you that the belief in the resurrection discussed in the preceding chapter is what Paul is referencing here , not that all traditions must be accepted. DM-So all you need to believe is the resurrection? Is that what you mean? BL-No that is not what I said , What is therefore There for? The context of that verse is found in the first 14 verses and refers to those 14 verses. It does not give a blanket statement about all traditions at all. DM-First of all, St. Paul makes it clear that he is not restricting his point to that whch is written since he said: 2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. Whether by WORD or epistle. Whether spoken or written. Next, we can see that he did not mean to hold to the written word only since he also said: 1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe. The word of God which ye HEARD of us. Thus, it is the Word of God preached and spoken. Not a written word. So, no, the context is not the prior 14 verses. BL-It does not give a blanket statement about all traditions at all. DM-I can find no restriction. Please provide it chapter and verse.

It is the Protestants who made up those stories.

Lutero:
I see. The RCC was flawless and blameless in act and deed.

Correct.

Those bad ole Protestants, why didn't they know that they should just sit down and shut up and tolerate all of the immorality with the popes and made up stories in the church.

It is the Protestants who made up those stories.

They should just keep handing over their money in order to earn their "get out of purgatory free card" which your church called indulgences.

Let's see what Jesus said about that:

Luke 11:41

King James Version (KJV)
⁴¹ But rather give alms of such things as ye have; and, behold, all things are clean unto you.

Matthew 19:21

King James Version (KJV)
²¹ Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Oh my! Is Jesus saying that we can buy our way into heaven?

If you call the behavior of the Vatican remaining faithful to God, then you and I have two different definitions.

The Catholic Church is more faithful to God than any other institution that ever existed on this earth.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Apologetical Rosary - understanding indulgences from Scripture

The Apologetical Rosary

You can use
this learning Rosary
when you're exercising
on a treadmill. Just put your
smartphone on the 
book ledge and read along 
as you exercise.

Use the little checkbox

to keep track of your progress.

See the examples below:

*********************

Intention:
By praying this decade, 

may God open our hearts
and minds
to a fuller understanding
of the Doctrines of the Catholic Church.

With the Crucifix
make the Sign of the Cross.

And, since this is

a learning prayer,

let us make the 

Triple Sign:

May the Word of God

be ever on my mind

 (touch the crucifix to your forehead

then your nose

then your your left cheek

then your right cheek) 

On my lips

(touch your nose

your chin

the left corner of your mouth

then the right corner of your mouth)

and in my heart

(cross your heart)

In the name

of the Father,

of the Son

and of the Holy Spirit

(Finish with 

the regular sign 

of the Cross 

i.e. forehead, chest, shoulders)

and still on the Crucifix
pray the Apostle's Creed:

I believe in God,
the Father Almighty,
Creator of Heaven and earth;
and in Jesus Christ,
His only Son Our Lord,
Who was conceived
 by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
 suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified,
died, and was buried.
He descended into Hell;
the third day
He rose again from the dead;
He ascended into Heaven,
and sitteth at the right hand of God,
the Father almighty;
from thence He shall come to judge
the living and the dead.
 I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy Catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
 the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body
and life everlasting.
Amen.

On the first big bead
pray the Our Father:

Our Father,
Who art in heaven,
Hallowed be Thy Name.
Thy Kingdom come.
Thy Will be done,
on earth as it is in Heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those
who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil. Amen.

On the next three beads
pray three Hail Mary's:

Hail Mary,
Full of Grace,
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit
of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary,
Mother of God,
pray for us sinners now,
and at the hour of death.
Amen.

For faith:
Hebrews 11:6
But without faith
it is impossible
to please him: ....

Hail Mary...

For hope:
Romans 8:24
For we are saved by hope:....

Hail Mary...


For love:
Romans 13:10
....love is the fulfilling of the law.

Hail Mary...

On the next big bead
 pray the Glory Be:

Glory be to the Father,
and to the Son,
and to the Holy Spirit.
As it was in the beginning,
is now,
and ever shall be,
world without end.
Amen.

************************************

Our Protestant
brethren often
 ask where we
find indulgences
in Scripture.

Indulgences are the
graces which are stored
up in heaven
for the Saints

2 Macc 12:
[45] And because he
considered that they
who had fallen asleep
with godliness,
had great grace
 laid up for them.
[46] It is therefore
a holy and wholesome
thought to pray
for the dead,
that they may
be loosed from sins.

still on the big bead:

Our Father...

First reason:

There is a 
treasury in 
heaven

Matthew 6
20 But lay up
for yourselves
treasures in heaven,
where neither moth
 nor rust doth
corrupt, and where
thieves do not
break through nor steal:
21 For where your
treasure is, there
will your heart be also.

Hail Mary...

Second:

These treasures
are worth more
than gold

Mark 12
43 And he called
unto him his
disciples, and saith
unto them,
Verily I say unto you,
That this poor widow
hath cast more in,
than all they which
 have cast into the treasury:
44 For all they did
cast in of their
abundance; but she of
her want did
cast in all that
she had, even
all her living.

Hail Mary...



Third:

We build up
this treasure
by our good deeds

Matthew 19:21
Jesus said unto him,
If thou wilt be perfect,
go and sell that
thou hast, and give
to the poor, and
thou shalt have treasure
in heaven: and
come and follow me.

Hail Mary...



Fourth:

We build up 
this treasure
in heaven
when we give 
money to the
Church

Luke 11:41
But rather give
alms of such things
as ye have; and,
behold, all things
 are clean unto you.

Hail Mary…



Fifth:

And we can
give this grace
one to another

1 Peter 4:10
As every man
hath received the gift,
even so minister
 the same one to another,
 as good stewards
of the manifold
grace of God.

Hail Mary...



Sixth:
And the Church
is in charge
of this treasury

Matthew 16
19 And I will give
unto thee the keys
of the kingdom
of heaven:
and whatsoever thou
shalt bind on earth
shall be bound in heaven:
 and whatsoever thou
shalt loose on earth
shall be loosed in heaven.

Hail Mary...

Seventh:

These treasures
or graces 
will be applied to
us on the day 
of judgment

1 Cor 3
11 For other foundation
can no man lay
than that is laid,
which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man
 build upon this
foundation gold, silver,
precious stones, wood,
hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work
shall be made manifest:
 for the day shall declare it,
 because it shall be
 revealed by fire;
and the fire shall
try every man's work
of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work
abide which he
 hath built thereupon,
he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work
shall be burned,
he shall suffer loss:
 but he himself
shall be saved;
yet so as by fire.

Hail Mary...

Eighth:

They shall be 
applied to us
by Christ, 
the Just Judge

Revelation 22:12
And, behold, I
come quickly; and
my reward is with me,
to give every man
according as his
work shall be.

Hail Mary...

Ninth:

Those who 
honor the Saints
will receive the 
grace of the Saints

Matthew 10:41
He that receiveth
a prophet in the name
of a prophet shall
receive a prophet's reward;
 and he that receiveth
a righteous man
in the name of a
righteous man
shall receive a righteous
man's reward.

Hail Mary…



Tenth:

For we are 
one body
in Christ

1 Cor 12
25 That there should
be no schism
in the body;
but that the members
should have the same
care one for another.
26 And whether
one member suffer,
all the members
suffer with it; or
one member be honored,
 all the members rejoice
 with it.

Hail Mary...



On the next big bead

Glory Be...

 **************************************************************

To conclude:

HAIL, HOLY QUEEN, Mother of Mercy,
our life, our sweetness and our hope!
To thee do we cry,
poor banished children of Eve;
 to thee do we send up our sighs,
 mourning and weeping in this vale of tears.
Turn then, most gracious advocate,
thine eyes of mercy toward us,
 and after this our exile,
show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
 O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary!

V. Pray for us, O Holy Mother of God.

R. That we may be made worthy
 of the promises of Christ.

On the Crucifix,
end with  the Sign of the Cross:

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