Questions about OSAS for Protestants

Questions for Protestants

First, am I right that you don’t believe that anyone who has once professed Christ in faith, can turn away from Him?

Second, am I also right in understanding that you believe that Christ’s sheep know who they are and that they are assured of salvation?

Here's what Scripture says to me:

Matthew 7:21-23
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’

Now, it seems to me, anyone calling Jesus, Lord, is doing it by the Holy Spirit. Am I right? 1 Corinthians 12:3

It seems to me, they had faith and were indwelt by the Holy Spirit and therefore, they called Jesus, “Lord”. Does my logic follow, so far?

will enter the kingdom of heaven,

Let me back up a bit. The entire idea which Jesus just pronounced is this:

Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven,

That says nothing about rewards. Nothing about eternal life. It just says that they will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. But it is in the Kingdom of Heaven that the elect dwell and enjoy their rewards, one of which is eternal life, isn’t it? Or does one enjoy these rewards including eternal life, outside of heaven in eternity?

It sounds rhetorical, but its a serious question. I answer, “No. One can not enjoy his crowns and rewards (i.e. sit on thrones, Luke 22:30) nor eternal life outside of heaven. Or at least, they are not permanent until they reside in Heaven, with God.”

but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

This expression sounds very clear. Those who do the will of the Father will enter heaven. Of course, the will of the Father is to believe in Christ. But then, these people called Jesus, Lord, so purportedly, they believed in Christ. Is there more to the Father’s will than merely proclaiming faith in Christ?

Here’s what the Father said directly to the People of God,
Luke 9:35
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
35 Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!”

This would seem to me to be an expression of His Will. Listen to Him. In other words, it is the Father saying, “Obey my Son.” And that is the Father’s will. Do we agree?

In terms of Scripture interpreting Scripture, it also agrees with this verse:
Hebrews 5:9
New American Standard Bible
And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,

So, there’s more to this, isn’t there? These folks should have been secure. But they seem to have received the surprise of their lives. But let’s continue.

22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord,

Jesus says that “Many” will call Him Lord.

did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many [a]miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

But He will say to Him, “I never knew you.”

So, even though, they thought they knew Him, He did not acknowledge them.

So, just from a simple study of those verse, I come to the conclusion that a simple profession of faith in Christ is not enough to assure one’s eternal salvation. And, that many who think they are followers of Christ, are not acknowledged by Him.

What do you think?

Sincerely,

De Maria

OSAS by any other name, is still an error

Anti-Catholic says:

I've already answered question.  I do not believe in OSAS.

Actually, you haven't addressed my point. Feel free to drop it if you feel badgered.But this is the point I'm making. The Pentecostal or Evangelical supposed denial of OSAS is simply a different version of the same doctrine. Why?

1. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you believe that you were saved by your faith ALONE.. Because you said, "To have true faith is to be saved." Is that correct?

2. Now, if a person has true faith, according to you, can that person fall away?

3. Also, you know the day you were saved and the hour you were saved and you do not believe that you, personally, can ever fall away. Am I correct?

I believe I know the answer to those questions. But correct me if I'm wrong.

You believe you have true faith.

Therefore, you believe you are saved.

Therefore, you believe you will not fall away.

If that's what you believe, then you believe in OSAS.

If you do not believe that, then I have to admit that I have been wrong in this discussion. And I remain baffled by your statement that the parable of the sheep and goats can be viewed through the lens of faith alone. Because the only lens ever presented to me by a Protestant, Evangelical or otherwise, has been, OSAS. The sheep were saved because they were always saved. The goats were condemned because they didn't have true faith.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Quote:
this My pastor and other spiritual leaders will be held accountable for how they have lead me and what they have taught me. Therefore, I should respect, honor, and obey their godly counsel.

Wow! That is a first. The response is virtually the same as that I would receive from a Catholic.

Quote:
There is nothing about confession in this verse.

Except for this part. The verse in question, Heb 13:17, is a description of what occurs in the Sacrament of Confession.

1. We submit to our Priest.
2. We confess to them our sins because we acknowledge that they watch over our souls.

3. They give an account of our sins to God when they pray for God to forgive our sins.
4. We obey their command when they give us the penance which we must do in order to make satisfaction for our sins. Its all there in a very concise manner. Protestants don't recognize it because they have dumped the Traditions of Jesus Christ which are the basis of the New Testament.

Sincerely,

De Maria

A man can lose his salvation

De Maria October 27, 2012 at 1:15 AM

Hi Christopher Lake,

You said:

I am a former Catholic convert (from agnosticism). Do you know that the majority of the original Protestant Reformers (and those, like me, who follow in their footsteps today, such as Presbyterians and Reformed Baptists) did not hold to the articulation of “Once Saved, Always Saved” found here, but rather to the “Perserverance of the Saints,” which is a very different doctrine?

I didn’t know that.

It is true that genuine Christians will lead lives which are characterized by a hunger for holiness. If a person claims to be a Christian, trusting in Christ for his/her salvation, yet that person is not fighting sin and doing good works, he/she is quite likely not a genuine Christian.

That sounds reasonable.

Scripture states clearly that only the person who endures *to the end* (in faith) will be saved.

That is the Catholic Teaching.

However, Scripture also claims (of the converted person, the Christian) that “He (God) who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.” (Philippians 1:6, ESV) According to this verse, God began the good work in us through bringing us to conversion, and He will complete the good work in us that He began. He leaves no person who has been born again in such a state that the person can somehow become “un-born again.” This being said, God will complete His good work in us through our *perseverance* in the faith– which He Himself *ensures.*

Your stated assumption is that God “leaves no person who has been born again in such a state that the person can somehow become “un-born again.”

But this contradicts Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

St. Peter addresses this error more pointedly:
2 Peter 2:20-22
King James Version (KJV)
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Therefore, it seems to me that your assumption that God saves all who are born again, is false, when compared to Scripture.

Again, from Paul’s letter to the Philippians, “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.” (2:12-13) We persevere in the faith– all *true* Christians do. We do so though, because God works in us, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. This is the Reformed, *Biblical* doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints (all Christians being called “saints” in the Bible, not just those who have been canonized).

1. All Christians are saints, that is Catholic Teaching. Have you ever heard of the communion of saints? That means that the saints on earth communicate with the saints in heaven.
2. The Reformed doctrine of the Perseverence of the Saints, is that precisely, a reformed innovation of the Gospel of Christ. In the Gospel of Christ, many who receive the Word fall away. God does not continue to work in them because they refuse to cooperate with God’s will:
Matthew 7:21-23
King James Version (KJV)
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Two last verses which show that for those who have been truly converted, they *will* persevere in the faith, *and* their salvation can also never be lost:

Let’s unpack those verses in context and in order.

“For those whom He foreknew

\Whom did He foreknow? He is God, so that means He foreknew everyone.

He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son,

That would be all mankind, wouldn’t it:
Genesis 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers.

That just says that God made us in order that we might become brothers of Christ:
Romans 8:15
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

For those whom He predestined He also called,

I believe Catholics and Protestants agree that God calls everyone with no exception.
1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

and those whom He called He also justified,

Here, the unspoken assumption must be that those who were called and obeyed:
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

For many are called, as the Scripture says:
Matthew 20:16
So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

and those whom He justified He also glorified.” (Romans 8:29-30, ESV)

Again, the assumption is that the justified did not turn away.
John 15:2-6
King James Version (KJV)
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

And these are the elect.
Matthew 24:31
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Those who remain. They who have persevered to the end and did not fall:
2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

In the second verse here, anyone who is predestined and called is also justified and glorified. There is no category left for people who were predestined, called, and justified, but who later lost their salvation.

Only if you read the Scripture without correlating to the rest of Scripture. If you allow two verses to contradict themselves, then that is what you get, two contradicting Scriptures. Scripture teaches that men can fall away from the faith. Therefore it is impossible that Scripture also teaches that men do not fall away from the faith.

1 Timothy 1:19
Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:

If a person has been predestined, called, and justified by God, this verse states that he/she *will* be glorified. Again, this will not happen without the person’s perseverance in the faith to the end, but the perseverance is once which is empowered and ensured by God (Philippians 1:6. 2:12-13).

That is reasonable if you are looking at it from the end. From the perspective of who is in heaven. Without God, they would not have persevered. That is Catholic Teaching.

But if you are looking at it from an earthly perspective and your understanding, as you seem to have explained earlier, is that everyone who is called will be justified and everyone justified will be glorified, you are wrong. It contradicts Catholic Teaching and the teaching of Scripture which Heb 6:6-10 and 2 Pet 2:20-22 clearly show.

This is what Protestant Reformed Christians believe. The “Once Saved, Always Saved” easy-believism without obedience to God is a relatively recent invention and is *not* faithful to the Protestant Reformation.

Depending upon what you mean above, it is either right or wrong. That which is right is in accordance with Catholic Teaching. That which is wrong is not.

Christopher Lake October 17, 2009 at 5:46 AMTypo– I meant to write, in in the last section of my comment that “this (glorification) will not happen without the person’s perseverance in the faith to the end, but the perseverance is *one* (rather than “once”– the typo to which I referred) which is empowered and ensured by God. I would love to read your reply to my (admittedly lengthy) comment! Take care and be blessed!

I don’t think the typo makes a difference in your meaning or my reply. I hope that you come back and read this reply and that it is helpful to you.

May you also be blessed exceedingly,

De Maria

But you still have to do the works of God before God will save you:

Luther:
Ezekiel 33:6
King James Version (KJV)
But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Really?

Here's what I said:
There you go, usurping God's Judgement.

Romans 14:4

King James Version (KJV)
⁴ Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.


And you have posted a Scripture which insinuates that God has appointed you my watchman. Why should I believe that you are my watchman? Show me. If you can't show me that you are my watchman, then why did you post that verse? Because it makes no sense otherwise.

Luther: 

1 Corinthians 5:12-13
King James Version (KJV)
For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

So then, you believe that you are an authority in the Church? Are we to obey you but disobey our Church?  

Now, you are not a member of my Church. You are without. My Church, the Catholic Church, has appointed Bishops and Priests who are my judges to whom I submit.

Hebrews 13:17
King James Version (KJV)¹⁷ Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

But, who are you? How do you claim to have more authority over me than the Bishops and Priests of the Catholic Church? You are outside the Church. You have been put away. What makes you think you are my judge?

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Absolutely! Anyone who claims that they are saved by faith alone and refuses to keep God's commandments, holds the truth in unrighteousness and will taste God's wrath.

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Still true. PROTESTANTS worship their own ability to believe, claiming they are too righteous to even attempt to keep the works of God. They claim they are saved by the merit of their faith Alone.

Luther: 

Romans 1:18-25
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

We don't worship idols. But you make an idol of your faith alone.

Luther: 

2 Corinthians 6:16-18
RO 10: 4. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Absolutely! And he who believes in Christ does the works of Christ:

John 14:12
King James Version (KJV)¹² Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Luther: 

RO 7: 6. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Absolutely! Therefore, SERVE in the newness of the Spirit.

Rather, this scripture is your church and your traditions

Nope.

We don't HOPE for it or guess. Jesus is our assurance. He said it in His word. I already told you :

You twisted the Scripture. I corrected your error.

Jn.3:16 Whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life
Jn.11:25,26 I am the resurrection and the life...whosoever believeth in Me shall never die
Acts 16:31 Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved
Rom.10:9,10 If thou shalt...believe in thine heart...thou shalt be saved
1Jn.5:1a Whosoever believeth Jesus is the Christ is born of God

All of that the Catholic Church teaches. But you still have to do the works of God before God will save you:

Philippians 2:12
King James Version (KJV)¹² Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Sincerely,

De Maria

How do you know you are saved?

The Catholic Church teaches us that we should not judge our own salvation.  That is the prerogative of God.  To whit, Scripture says:

1 Corinthians 4:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

 ⁴For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
 ⁵Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

Protestants, however, teach that they are saved whenever they make a proclamation of faith.  And when people who have made a proclamation of faith backslide and fall away from the faith, they say, "Well they weren't saved at all in the first place."  Yet when those people were walking the straight and narrow, all their Protestant friends considered them saved along with all the rest who had proclaimed faith in God.


So, it doesn't make sense to me.  Scripture is clear:

Philippians 2:12

King James Version (KJV)

and trembling. 12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear  It seems to me that those people who claim they are saved are usurping God's right to judge their soul.  What do you think?

Sincerely,

De Maria

Do you rely upon your faith alone for salvation?

Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. 1 Cor 7:19

Frequently, Protestants accuse Catholics of relying upon our works for salvation. But that isn't true.  And that is easy to prove.  All you have to do is ask a Catholic, any Catholic, "Are you saved?"  What is the answer that he will give? We all know.   

He will answer, "I don't know." 
Protestants harangue us for this response all the time.   Never mind that this is the Biblical answer (1 Cor 4:5).


The fact is, we believe we are saved by our FAITH and works, but we don't rely upon either to be saved.  We rely upon God.

ON THE OTHER HAND, if you ask a Protestant if he is saved, what will he say?

"Yes!" they say, "I am saved by my faith alone! My sins are all forgiven!" Even if we ask them, "What about your future sins?"

ALL MY SINS ARE FORGIVEN, I'M GOING TO HEAVEN.

That is their answer! What do you say? Do you rely upon your faith alone for salvation?
Which is the more Biblical reply?

1 Corinthians 4:3-5

King James Version (KJV)

 ³But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
 ⁴For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
 ⁵Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

Sincerely,

De Maria