Judgement will come first to those in the House of God

 

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   DE MARIA May 25, 2013 at 10:59 am

   RAYN May 24, 2013 at 10:40 pm
   I’ll continue to maintain what I said: for someone who isn’t familiar with the doctrine the current Pope regularly confesses publicly, then his statement could be taken to mean universalism. That said, sure, Catholics seem to get it. I don’t see any of the outbursts coming from Catholics.

   Yes, we understand the Pope. The Pope is thoroughly Catholic.

   Nevertheless, this provokes good questions about the inclusivism apparent in Roman Catholic theology, and the inability of Roman Catholic theologians to properly distinguish between general revelation (which is law, what you must do) and special revelation (gospel, what God in Christ has done on behalf of his people).

   Did you make this distinction up on your own? If not, please show me from Scripture.

   In Romans 1:18-3:20 the Apostle is driving toward his gospel presentation (which begins in Romans 3:21) by showing the necessity of it.

   We accept the necessity of the Gospel. What we are debating is the contents of the Gospel or what it truly means.

   We must keep in mind the whole time that we’re reading Romans 1:18-3:20 the conclusion of Paul’s arguement — he tells you what it is in 3:9, “we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin,” after which he quotes a plethora of Old Testament Scripture to support that conclusion.

   All that he wrote is true.

   Whatever you think Paul means in that section, if it contradicts his own clearly stated conclusion, you haven’t understood that passage.

   That’s part of the problem. You claim that St. Paul speaks clearly. But Scripture tells you different and yet all Protestants refuse to believe what Scripture says about St. Paul’s writings:
   2 Peter 3:16
   As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

   We, however, understand that St. Paul says some things which we must study in order to understand correctly.

   The purpose of his arguement is to shut the whole world up in their guilt before God so that they’ll listen when he gives the glorious “but” in Romans 3:21! “For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes the knowledge of sin,” (Romans 3:20).

   That is Catholic Teaching. But you don’t understand it correctly.

   By the term “the law”, St. Paul is speaking of the Old Covenant through which no man was ever justified. To be justified is to wash away sins. Here is what St. Paul says elsewhere:
   Hebrews 10:4
   For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

   The Old Law, the Old Covenant, did not justify. But doers of the law, will be justified, the law of the Ten Commandments:
   Romans 2:13
   King James Version (KJV)
   13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

   So Romans 1&2 shows that while the whole world knows what God requires in the law, since it is written on their conscience, and since Jews know the law even more clearly in the Scriptures, that simply shows that they are accountable for their sin — not that they’re actually attaining righteousness by whatever means.

   On the contrary, what it shows is that those who do the righteous works of God will be justified by God. Whether they are Jew or Gentile:
   Romans 2:1-13
   King James Version (KJV)
   1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. 2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. 3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? 4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
   12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

   If you want righteousness before God, Paul directs us outside of ourselves. “But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it — the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe” (Romans 3:21-22).

   Faith in Jesus Christ is not outside of ourselves. It is in our hearts.
   John 14:21
   He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

   Paul says that gentiles have the work of the law written on their hearts. Sure, we see this from the fact that nonbelievers build hospitals — glorious testimony to the fact that God has not abandoned the creation but is being patient with all until they come to repentance in Christ (Romans 2:4). But they are warned that apart from repentance they will only have to face God’s wrath. God will be just on the last day when he judges because everyone whom he condemns has had sufficient knowledge of what God requires in the law — but saving knowledge of God in Christ comes only through the good news Paul announces in Romans 3 which he no where says is inherent in creation, but rather distinguishes it from it.

   It will certainly be very difficult for non-believers to obey Christ and be saved. But you are misunderstanding the Scripture. St. Paul is saying that if you want to walk with the Saints in this life, you must obey Christ and keep the precepts of His Faith, His Church. But if you don’t, you must await the Judgment where all men will be judged. St. Peter says the same thing:
   1 Peter 4:17
   For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

   Bottomline, you guys are arguing a straw man of your own making. The Catholic Church teaches universalism in this sense. ALL men, universally, will be judged by God. The Catholic Church does not teach that all men are saved. Nor does Pope Francis.

   Sincerely,

   De Maria

God does not grade on a curve

De Maria,

Apparently, you don’t know that you are saved. At least you’re being consistent with Roman teaching. 

The Catholic Church is consistent with Biblical Teaching:

1 Corinthians 4:3But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.

But I tell you that you can know you are saved and that God wants you to know if you are saved. 

That's true.  But Scripture qualifies that statement with a very important fact:

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.  2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.  3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

So, if we keep His Commandments, we can be sure that we will go to heaven.  Do you keep His Commandments?  Yes or no.

But that would mean trusting in Christ alone and not in a church that cannot save you. 

And yet, Scripture instructs you to trust in the Church:

1 Timothy 3:15But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Otherwise, Scripture would not call the Church, the Pillar and Ground of the Truth.

If you can participate in the mass daily and still end up in hell, the sacraments are doing absolutely nothing for you.

There's no difference there from the Protestant who claims to have faith but ends up in hell.  There are many, Scripture says, who will have faith in vain.

1 Timothy 1:19Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:

Hebrews 6:4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,  5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,  6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Throwing out a random verse from Romans 14 that is not dealing with justification proves nothing. You should actually try and make an argument from a verse that is pertinent to the situation.

All the verses I've provided are pertinent to the situation, you just don't want to hear it.  You're living in denial of the truth.

Actually, I don’t feel good about myself. I am confident in my salvation not because I am faithful but because the Judge became incarnate and gave His life for me, and, believing in His resurrection I am saved. Before God’s bar of justice, I am not faithful. He doesn’t grade on a curve, y’know.

Several points here:

1.  You call God your Judge but you deny that He will judge you.  Thus, you are making yourself the judge of your salvation.

2.  You declare yourself unfaithful, yet you claim that God will allow you into heaven, even though you acknowledge that He does not grade on a curve.  Thus, damning yourself, because you are right.  God does not lie, God does not fudge.  You are either worthy of salvation or not.  God alone judges that fact.

1 Corinthians 6:8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.  9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,  10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

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God is Judge

 

2. RT May 25, 2013 at 6:30 am

   ….If I’m a Muslim or Buddhist who does good and “feels” close to God, I’m going to end up in heaven anyway…..

   Nope. The Catholic Church teaches that God is our judge. Your opinion about yourself has nothing to do with whether you will wind up in heaven.

   For example:
   As a Protestant, you claim that you are saved because you consider yourself faithful. You feel good about yourself.

   The Catholic Church says that it doesn’t matter how faithful you claim to be. You are not the Judge. God is the one who decides whether you will be in heaven or not.

   In the same way, God will judge the Catholic, Muslim, Hindu and pagan of every sort, including also, the atheists:
   Romans 14:10
   But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

   Sincerely,

   De Maria

Faith alone people suffer with two false assumptions.

The difference between Catholics and Protestants is that they see faith as something that they can measure. Therefore, they claim to be saved by faith alone. I'm reminded of the question that faith alone people ask faith and works people. "How many works do you need to perform to be saved?" There are faith and works people outside of Catholicism. So, I don't know how they feel about this question. But I can tell you that the question is completely foreign to Catholics, because we are taught not to judge our faith nor our works. We leave the question of who is saved, to God.

Faith alone people suffer with two false assumptions.
1. That they have the right to declare themselves saved.
2. That they have the ability to measure their faith.

Thus, they assume that everybody lives with those assumptions. But we, Catholics, don't.

The proof is vey easy to discover. Ask a Catholic, any Catholic, whether he is saved. His answer will invariably be, "I don't know." Why? Because God is our Judge.

1 Corinthians 4:

4 I am not conscious of anything against me, but I do not thereby stand acquitted; the one who judges me is the Lord. 5 Therefore, do not make any judgment before the appointed time, until the Lord comes, for he will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will manifest the motives of our hearts, and then everyone will receive praise from God.

The reason that faith alone people ask this question is be cause they are used to judging themselves saved. Even though this is an unbiblical attitude. But, the question can easily be turned around on them. I ask them in turn, "How much faith do you need in order to be saved and how do you measure it?"

Can you read anyone's heart? Can you even read your own?

Jeremiah 17:9 More tortuous than anything is the human heart,
beyond remedy; who can understand it?

As for me, I don't even try to read my own heart nor anyone else's. I leave that to God.

10 I, the LORD, explore the mind
and test the heart,
Giving to all according to their ways,
according to the fruit of their deeds