Bob asks:

De Maria,
Is your understanding of the Magisterium infallible?

There’s a difference between Catholic and Protestant in this respect.

I don’t interpret the Magisterium. I obey. Therefore, I need not be infallible.

Whereas, Protestants interpret the Scriptures. Create their own doctrines which may or may not agree with Scripture. And essentially live according to their own designs

I’ll give you an example. When I first came back to the Church, there were several doctrines with which I disagreed. But I sucked it up and accepted them anyway.

Protestants are never in that situation because they essentially make up their own religion. Correct me if I’m wrong.

The Church, however, has the authority to impose discipline

The Church of Jesus Christ

Nocreo:1123 (First Lateran Council), reaffirmed in 1139 (Second Lateran Council) and 1545-1564 (Council of Trent).

You made the claim so you'll have to prove it. None of those say anything about the Church turning celibacy into a Commandment of God.

It is however, a discipline imposed upon priests by the Church.

Paul was neither priest nor deacon: he was an apostle.

He was Priest and Bishop.
First of all, he accepted the priestly duties which Christ had assigned to him.

Here it is explicit in the original Greek, which loses something in the translation to English:
hierourgeō
1) to minister in the manner of a priest, minister in priestly service
a) of those who defend the sanctity of the law by undergoing a violent death
b) of the preaching of the gospel
Romans 15:16
King James Version (KJV)
16That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering (hierourgeo) the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

Second, all the Apostles understood that they held the office of Bishop. This is St. Peter speaking about Judas Iscariot's Bishoprick:
Acts 1:20
King James Version (KJV)
20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

The two are not the same--obviously, considering that Peter is explicitly named in the Bible as being married.

St. Peter was married but St. Paul was not. 

Read the verse right before that: "But I say this of permission, and not by commandment." Paul is giving his personal opinion--advice that he obviously thought was good and valid, but was not a command from God.

Again, I didn't say it was a command from God. So why do you keep bringing up this straw man. 

The Church, however, has the authority to impose discipline upon its members. 

Don't get me wrong--I'm not saying "You're wrong and therefore will go to a very bad place." It would be quite odd of me to make such a statement (I am a non-Christian).

Really? So why do you think you know anything about Christianity?

But there are times when the tradition of the Magisterium has departed from the actual text of the Scriptures.

The Catholic Church has never departed from Scripture. If you are not Christian, why do you care? You don't keep Scripture at all.

They may have felt that they had a valid reason for doing so--

Catholic doctrine is the most Biblical of any religion bar none.

I have "no dog in that fight."

Exactly! 

But for those who hold the scripture as the word of God, and do not hold to the doctrine of papal infallibility, your position is tenuous, at best.

Here is what Scripture has to say:
Matthew 16:18-19
King James Version (KJV)
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

1. Jesus gave St. Peter his own name. It is Jesus/God, who is the Rock. But Jesus appointed Simon the Rock. Thus signifying that Simon was representing Him before the Church.
2. Jesus gave St. Peter the keys to the Kingdom and said that anything which Peter bound was bound in heaven and anything he released was released in heaven. Thereby saying that Peter was infallible. God would confirm any decision he made.

Now, produce the evidence that you claim invalidates the doctrine of papal infallibility. 

Sincerely,

De Maria

She began to notice the error and confusion being taught outside the Catholic Church

Nova
She said:

I resolved to keep an open mind, but it did not take me long to conclude that, within the paradigms of liberal Christian thought and theological relativism, proclaiming to be a Christian meant very little. It did not necessitate that I believe in the Virgin Birth, the literal resurrection of Christ, or in His divinity. I met a man in Protestant seminary who did not even consider belief in God, or any "Supreme Being" for that matter, a requisite to Christianity. The ridiculousness and incongruity of it all was not lost upon me. Even still, I dutifully continued to question my own faith. I had, after all, been assured that the majority of beliefs and hopes to which I held and scriptures in which I had found comfort were ignorant, oppressive, and self-serving.

Good point. In other words, it was not simply what she found within the Catholic Church. But first of all, she began to notice the error and confusion being taught outside the Catholic Church. When she turned to the Catholic Church, she found within it, the Biblical Truth.  All we need to do is look at Luther and his willingness to discard 12 books from the Scripture.  Obviously, he did not believe in the infallibility nor in the inerrancy of the Word of God.  Protestantism follows Luther's example.  Protestants put their own opinions over the Word of God.

The above is from her writing, but there are RC's who dont believe that stuff above also. she is just kidding herself. How she could think RC doctrines are in line with the Bible is beyond me.

Anytime you want, we can compare your nonCatholic beliefs to Scripture and Catholic beliefs to Scripture. Let's begin with these two.

Protestants say, "Reject Traditions!" Scripture says:

2 Thessalonians 2:15

King James Version (KJV)
¹⁵ Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Protestants say, "Justification by faith alone!" Scripture says:

James 2:24

King James Version (KJV)
²⁴ Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

You got any you want to mention?

Sincerely,

De Maria

The Pope has more insight into marriage than any married man

Zwingli:

I've never understood how an unmarried, celibate man can ever accurately council a married man with children. It's about as effective as a teenager telling his mom how to be a good mother. Ignorance often breeds surety and arrogance.

By the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Have you ever read the Pope John Paul II's Theology of the Body? He has more insight in those volumes than any married man I've ever heard speak on the subject of family.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Jesus built the Catholic Church upon the Rock of Peter

(continued from yesterday)

Lutero:

I do not believe scriptures are the sole authority for the church,

Then you don't agree with Sola Scriptura?

I believe God is.

Can God not appoint rulers in His Church whom we must obey?

Hebrews 13:17

King James Version (KJV)
17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Can God not inspire these rulers to speak infallibly today as He did yesterday?

2 Peter 1:19-21

King James Version (KJV)
19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

The scriptures were meant to be expounded by men with the authority of God behind them. Unfortunately, the Catholic Church is a lot different than it was 1,900 years ago and the Protestants are hopelessly divided, so I do not know how the church will attain unity again.

The Catholic Church is the same Church which Jesus built upon the Rock of Peter. I believe the promise of Jesus Christ. The gates of hell have not and will never prevail upon His Church.

Matthew 16:18

King James Version (KJV)
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

(continued tomorrow)

Yes, St. Peter was infallible

(continued from yesterday)

Lutero
You read more into it than what is there. Jesus never declared Peter infallible.

Yes, He did.

Just read the gospels to find out how fallible all the apostles were.

They were not, as yet, functioning as the Church.

And if you answer their mistakes were before Pentecost

That is correct.

then I will remind you when Paul reprimanded Peter after Pentecost for not eating with the Gentiles because he did not want to offend the Jews.

Hm? St. Paul reprimanded St. Peter for doing what St. Paul recommended? Doesn't St. Paul say:
1 Corinthians 8:13

King James Version (KJV)
13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

If that is true, then are you claiming that Scripture contradicts itself? Because St. Paul wrote those words but you claim that he reprimanded St. Peter for not offending the Jews by eating pork with the gentiles.

No, Peter was not infallible.

Yes, St. Peter was infallible. Or are you saying that the Epistles of Peter are filled with error?

He was the authority that Christ put over His church after Christ departed.

Correct.

And Peter had eleven other apostles to keep him in check, in case he were to stumble.

It is the other way around. Scripture is clear:
Luke 22:30-32

King James Version (KJV)
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Let me end with this quote from Peter, himself,

"...there is no man who ought to be ashamed of this [their lack of skill], because there is no man who ought to profess that he knows all things; for there is only One who knows all things, even He who also made all things. For if our Master declared that He knew not the day and the hour whose signs even He foretold, and referred the whole to the Father, how shall we account it disgraceful to confess that we are ignorant of some things, since in this we have the example of our Master? But this only we profess, that we know those things which we have learned from the true Prophet; and that those things have been delivered to us by the true Prophet, which He judged to be sufficient for human knowledge." Peter,Recognitions of clement, Book 10, chapter 14

KEY WORDS

how shall we account it disgraceful to confess that we are ignorant of some things,since in this we have the example of our Master?

Clement is here comparing the office of Peter to "our Master". Who is "our Master"? Is it not Jesus Christ?

If Jesus Christ is not infallible, then you are correct. But I believe Jesus Christ is infallible. And the office of the Papacy holds His representative on earth and is therefore infallible by virtue of His infallibility.

That is why He signified it with His name. The Rock.

(to be continued)

Jesus Christ declared the Pope infallible

Lutero:
Definitely, the popes have taken authority to an extreme. like I said to Ignatius earlier, the early church authority was decentralized to the bishops and the bishop of Rome was a central point of communication between the different regions. It was a later Pope who declared himself infallible.

Jesus Christ declared the Pope infallible:

Matthew 16:18-19
King James Version (KJV)
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Lets go through that in detail. But first, why did Jesus give Simon the name, “Rock”? Perhaps you never wondered. Here’s why.Because He wanted all to know that Simon would be he to whom all must turn who want to know God’s will. There is a precedent for this in Scripture:

Exodus 7:1
King James Version (KJV)
7 And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

Exodus 18:13-15
King James Version (KJV)
13 And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses sat to judge the people: and the people stood by Moses from the morning unto the evening.14 And when Moses’ father in law saw all that he did to the people, he said, What is this thing that thou doest to the people? why sittest thou thyself alone, and all the people stand by thee from morning unto even?15 And Moses said unto his father in law, 
Because the people come unto me to enquire of God:

Exodus 19:9
King James Version (KJV)
9 And the Lord said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the Lord.
God put Moses in a position of authority over the people. Jesus has done the same thing with Simon. God covered Moses with the Cloud, Jesus gave Simon His own name, Rock along with the keys to the Kingdom (Matt 16:18-19) and appointed him Shepherd over the Church (John 21:15-17).

In the same way, Jesus has appointed Simon as Shepherd over His flock. 

John 21:15-17
King James Version (KJV)
15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.


16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.


17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

And in order to bring this point home, Jesus gave Simon His own name, “Rock” or “Peter”.
This is to signify the type of authority which Jesus has given to Simon. He has the authority to bind and loose in the God’s name.

Ok, let's go through it.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, 

Jesus, speaking to Simon, names him "Rock". That is the meaning of the name "Peter". Heretofore, the only Rock in Scripture has been God. Therefore, Jesus has given Simon, His own name. This is significant. It means that Simon is now God's representative upon earth. The rest follows logically.

and upon this rock I will build my church; 

Since Peter is Christ's representative, it is logical that Jesus would organize His Church around St. Peter. This is why we can say that the Church is the Body of Christ. It is Christ's CORPORATION. St. Peter is the Chief Officer. The Apostles the Board of Directors.

and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Again, because Peter is Christ's representative, it is logical that the Church will prevail against the gates of hell. Hell is in a state of siege from the moment that Jesus was conceived. Upon His death, Jesus stormed hell and set the captives free:
Hebrews 9:15-17

King James Version (KJV)
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

From this point on, the Catholic Church which Jesus established has kept Satan in a state of siege. From the moment that any man is baptized, they are snatched out of Satan's hands and joined to the Church:

Acts 2:38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.….47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

The Catholic Church sets the captives free in the name of Jesus Christ. Therefore, the gates of hell do not prevail against that infallible institution which Jesus Christ built upon that infallible office.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.


Everything which Peter binds upon earth is bound in heaven. Everything he looses upon earth is loosed in heaven. That is not only infallibility. That is also saving power. God has given the office of Peter awesome power. And all that we can do is sit back and gasp:
Matthew 9:8

King James Version (KJV)
8 But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.

Yeah! Christ declared the Pope, infallible!

(to be continued tomorrow)

Is the Catholic Church infallible?

Let's see if you can follow my logic.

Scripture says that the Church teaches the Wisdom of God:

Ephesians 3:10
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Is God's Wisdom infallible? I say yes.

Is there really any need to say more? I don't think so. But there is more.

Scripture says that the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth:
1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

God is here saying that the Church always upholds the truth. I believe God. Therefore, I conclude that the Church is infallible.

Scripture says:
Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Here the Church is depicted as keeping hell in a state of seige. And further it is said that hell will never prevail against the Church. If the Church committed errors in the mission given her by God, then the gates of hell would have prevailed.

God says that won't happen. I believe God. Therefore, I conclude that the Church is infallible.

But is this the Catholic Church?



I believe the Church described in Scripture is the Catholic Church, yes.

First, Jesus Christ appointed a Pastor as head of the entire Church:
John 21:17
He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

I see only a few Churches with such a Pastor. Further, Jesus Christ said that the Pastor over His Church would be infallible:

Matthew 16:17-19 (King James Version)
17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

The list of Churches accept this teaching gets smaller. Certainly, all Protestant denominations can now be eliminated.

Jesus Christ not only said that the Pastor was infallible but Scripture describes the Church as infallible:
Ephesians 3:10
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

The list remains the same, but now I can certainly eliminate all Protestant denominations.

Back to Matt 16:18, Scripture says that Jesus Christ established one Church. History shows that all the Churches sprang from the Church which is frequently described as the Mother Church. The Catholic Church.

By simple logic of elimination, that leaves only the Catholic Church. Further, the Catholic Church can produce records tracing back to Apostolic times.

Therefore, I conclude that it is the Catholic Church which is described in Scripture.



What do you think?

Sincerely,



De Maria