Jesus saves children because of the faith of their parents.

De Maria October 24, 2012 at 10:48 AM

You said,
Hi De Maria,Thanks very much for your response. I see at least you have the acumen of responding. Which is good indeed.

Thank you.

In taking verses out of context, I stated John 3:5 because that’s one of the footnotes at the bottom of the CCC,

Correct.

the Catholic Church relies for scriptural support in respect to baptism. John’s baptism of repentance is found in Mark 1:4, Luke 3:3, Acts 13:24, and more specifically Acts 19:4.

Correct.

So i am simply pointing that John 3:5 is out of context because you cannot lead a person to become a Christian because John’s Baptism of Repentance was during the period covering the Gospels.

That would be a misunderstanding of John 3:5, Jesus is describing that which occurs in His Baptism:

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

St. John’s Baptism did not bring the gift of the Holy Spirit. The Baptism in the name of Jesus, does.

Why?? Simply because during the period covering the Gospels, the Lord had not risen and glorified as yet.

That is true. But Jesus was not explaining St. John’s Baptism, but His own.

Therefore the Holy Ghost was promised only after his Ascension.

Also true.

Christian initiation actually starts in the the Book of Acts and not the Gospels.

That is a mistake. Christian initiation began when Jesus started teaching His disciples. In fact, we can also say that Christian initiation began when St. John began preparing the way for Christ.

That is why St.Paul stated it in Acts 19:4.

Acts 19:4
King James Version (KJV)
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

He mentions that St. John was preparing people to believe in Christ. Which can be understood as a type of Christian initiation. Unless you have a specific and personal understanding of the term “Christian initiation”. For Catholics, it means an introduction to the doctrines and the faith of Jesus Christ.

In fact there has always been a four-fold pattern Jesus and his Apostles always consistently preached a pattern in the entire New Testament. i.e REPENT for you sins, BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus, Be BAPTIZED, and RECEIVE the Holy Ghost.

That is the same pattern which the Catholic Church preaches today.

This is the correct pattern we can see on location how the Apostles led inquirers to the Christian faith (Acts 2:38, Acts 2:41). In fact Jesus and John the Baptist always pointed to that four-fold pattern but scattered throughout the Gospels, Acts and the Epistles. But in the Book of Hebrews Chapter 6 they surprisingly appear in that order.

Why surprisingly? It is the pattern which has always been taught. It is Protestants who have deviated from that pattern with their so-called “altar calls” and denials of Baptism as the culmination of Christian initiation.

OK so you talk about the RCIA. Does this means those baptized as babies have also have to compulsory undergo RCIA?

Infants follow a different pattern. Throughout the New Testament, we see that Jesus saves children because of the faith of their parents. Example:

Matthew 15:28
Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Jesus saves infants because of the faith of their parents.

Does the RCIA follow the Biblical pattern I’ve covered above?

Yes.

Also please note that during John’s baptism in Gospel required one to first become a disciple of Christ and then be baptized, by first showing “fruit meets for repentance” – Matthew 3:7-9. Does the RCIA cover this?

Yes.

Thanks and God Bless you,

May God bless you as well,

Sincerely,

De Maria

Rite of Christian Iniatiation

First and foremost Titus is an epistle letter, and unlike other epistles, were written to people who were already Christians (believers).

All the Epistles were written to individual Christians or Church communities. True.

And so we cannot lead un-believers into Christian initiation thru any of the the Epsitles.

That doesn’t follow.
1st. CCC1215 simply describes Baptism. It doesn’t say that one must study the Epistle of Titus in order to become Christian.
2nd. Titus 3:5 is a description of the physical and spiritual actions which take place in Baptism. The water washes our skin as the Spirit washes the sins off our soul. It does not address Christian initiation. That is addressed in other Scriptures. And Christian initiation is not synonymous with Baptism. Baptism is the climax of Christian initiation.
3rd. In the Epistle to Titus, St. Paul instructs St. Titus to instruct a Christian community. All Christian communities follow the Great Commission of Jesus Christ, to make disciples of the world.

By Christian initiation, I mean “How to become a Christian”, “How to enter the Kingdom of heaven on earth, “How to begin the Christian life”, “How to be born Again”.

To understand the process of conversion which leads one to Christian initiation and concludes in Baptism, please read the documents of the Council of Trent.

Now we are left with John 3:5 – the Gospel.

One verse of the Gospel of John.

We see that John the Baptist preached the “Baptism of Repentance”.

True. But John 3:5 doesn’t even mention John the Baptist. So, what are you talking about, the Baptism of Christ or the Baptism of John?

During the period covering the Gospels, people were baptized with John’s Baptism after producing “fruits of repentance” – Mathew 3:7-9. In other words, people who came to John’s Baptism after believing, were made disciples, xxxxx John 4:1 (showing fruits of repentance), and then they were baptized subsequently. Unlike in the Roman Catholic Church its totally topsy-turvy and therefore not compatible with New Testament Baptism.

Really? That’s what you think? Most Protestants castigate the Catholic Church because the Catholic Church requires everyone who converts to go through the Rite of Christian Iniation for adults (RCIA).

The best way to prove you wrong is to have you go to any Catholic Church and request Baptism. See if what you claim is true.

Also those people baptized during the period covering Gospels, had to be re-baptized again. I can elaborate more, but i’ll keep it for next time should the need arise

Only those Baptized by St. John. There is no indication that the Apostles, whom we assume were baptized by Christ, were ever re-baptized by water unless they were first disciples of St. John.

Sincerely,

De Maria

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