I have absolute confidence in God. Because of my absolute confidence in God, I obey His Church, all the time.

 De Maria said...

Hi again,

You said:

Godismyjudge said...
Hi De Maria,

Thanks for your thoughtful response.

You're welcome.

I suppose I should start with defining sola scriptura. Here's a famous quote from Luther:

Is it fair of me to ask why you didn't provide a definition from Scripture?

"Unless I am convinced by the testimony of the Scriptures or by clear reason (for I do not trust either in the pope or in councils alone, since it is well known that they have often erred and contradicted themselves),

What he seems to say here is that he doesn't believe the Church because he believes the Church errs in doctrine. But I see Scripture saying that the Church teaches the wisdom of God (Eph 3:10). And that the Church is the pillar of truth (1 Tim 3:15). Which I understand to mean that the Church is infallible.

So, by which authority does he discard the authority of the Church? Certainly not Scripture (Matt 18:17).

I am bound by the Scriptures I have quoted

I'd be interested to see those Scriptures.

and my conscience is captive to the Word of God.

I wonder how he means, since Scripture tells him to obey those who rule over him in the Church (Heb 13:17). Yet he did exactly the opposite.

I cannot and will not recant anything, since it is neither safe nor right to go against conscience.

THAT is true. Nor am I capable of judging his heart. I am however, capable of comparing his teachings to the Scriptures and in my opinion, his teachings are found wanting.

May God help me. Amen."

May God help us all. Amen.

I don't really see a definition of SS in that statement though. Do you mean where he says he must be convinced by Scripture? That seems to contradict the Word of God head on. Because Scripture says:
Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

And also:
Hebrews 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

So the issue is we can believe something just because the bible says so, but we cannot believe something just because Popes and Councils say so. 

That doesn't seem to be the lesson of Scripture. Scripture says that we can believe those who taught us because we know who it is that taught us and we trust in them:
2 Tim 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

This is a reference to Tim's mom and grandma, they taught him the Scriptures. Indicating that the lessons of Scripture need to be taught:
Acts 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? 31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

Now he is not denying non-biblical sources have anything truthful to say, but he is saying his experiance with non-biblical sources tells him he has to be careful with them.

That is Catholic Teaching. That is why we test everything against Scripture, Tradition and Magisterium.

Are you careful with what Rome has to say, or do you place your absolute confidence in them?

I place my absolute confidence in the Word of God which says:
Ephesians 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

I believe the Catholic Church is the true Church, so according to Scripture, tell me, why I should doubt anything they say?

Are you in the true Church? Yet, you doubt everything your pastor says, am I right? Or perhaps you're already a pastor yourself. But you doubt everything anybody else teaches you. So, how do you apply Heb 13:7, 17 to your life? Which man of the Church do you obey and submit to?

You also said:
No question God's word can be spoken as well as written.

Amen!

But if we have good reason to believe it's no longer written, those same reasons may indicate it's no longer spoken.

I prefer to believe the Scriptures I quoted above (1 Tim 3:15, Eph 3:10) and Matt 16:18 which says:

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

I believe these verses tell me that the Church will never commit error in teaching doctrine. To do so would be to succumb to the Devil.

Never the less, I am open to the idea that God's word is still spoken today, but if someone says they are speaking God's word, I will test them.

As you should. But the Protestant test amounts to this. A comparison of personal opinions.

Whereas, Scripture gives the solution for that deadend. Take your brother to the Church and have the Church decide which is wrong. When the Bishops Arius and Athanasius disagreed on what the Scriptures teach as regards the nature of Christ, who decided between the two? The Church. That is the procedure Christ instituted (Matt 18:17) and which is illustrated in practice in the Church (Gal 1:8; 2 Thess 3:6-7).

If they contradict themselves or scripture or incorrectly predict the future, we know they are not really speaking God's word.

That is correct.

I disagree that just because someone portions of the bible are for the mature, that it is imperfect.

I believe Scripture is without error in doctrine.
John 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

I do not believe that means that it is perfect since Scripture itself says it can't be understood by all.

You qualify the errors of Popes and Councils by saying they don't error when in union with the Majesterial Church". 

Correct. We have no doctrine of personal infallibility by anyone. The Popes can all err except when they preach doctrine to the Church from the chair of Peter. The Bishops can all err except when they come together in ecumenical council, united with the Pope, to agree upon the teaching of the Church.

My point was more general; we can't put absolute trust in Popes and Councils. 

The Church itself has disspelled and discounted many councils. And the Popes do not always speak officially in order to teach doctrine to the entire Church.

When is your qualification relivant, and when is it irrelivant? For example, you take Ephesians 3:10 and 1 Timothy 3:15 to mean the Church is infallable. In all things or only sometimes?

In all things having to do with Christian doctrine.

When do you place absolute confidence in your church?

I have absolute confidence in God. Because of my absolute confidence in God, I obey His Church, all the time.

As for the question "where is it written", we are looking for an absolute authority,

God is the only ABSOLUTE authority.

but not necessarilly denying that other sources are sometimes useful.

The Church teaches the absolute truth of God's revelation through her Traditions by Word and Epistle.

God be with you,
Dan 

And with you. Thanks for your cordial response.

Sincerely,

De Maria

I don't see Scripture ever saying, "hold Scripture alone" or "obey Scripture alone". Please point that out to me.

 De Maria said...

Hi,

More Evidence for Sola Scriptura
Steve Ray errors in his description of Sola Scriptura (link) thereby providing more evidence that only scripture is infallible. Steve says:

The doctrine of Sola Scriptura states that we should believe only what we find clearly taught in the Bible; the doctrine of Sola Scriptura is found nowhere clearly taught in the Bible; so…??? 

Sola Scriptura does not say we should only believe what we find clearly taught in the Bible.

It doesn't?

We learn many things in many different ways, but Scripture is the only Word of God that we have today.

And yet Scripture says:
1 Thessalonians 2:13For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

Hebrews 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

To me, that says that the word of God can be transmitted in mere conversation. Show me where Scripture says, chapter and verse, that the word of God can no longer be transmitted by mere conversation.

The Bible is perfect,

The Bible is without error, is that what you mean? If so, I agree. However, if Scripture were perfect, Scripture would not say that there are some portions of Scripture which are hard to understand:
2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Popes, Councils 

But not in doctrine when taught in union with the Magisterial Church.

and Steve Ray make mistakes. 

But he didn't make an error when he converted to the Catholic Church. He was right on the money there.

For good reasons to believe the bible see (here). For good reasons to believe Popes error see (here). Thus we can conclude that the bible is the last man standing.

We agree that the Bible is without error. But not the Bible alone. Scripture itself says that the Church is the Pillar of Truth:
1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

And that the Church teaches the wisdom of God:
Ephesians 3:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

I take that to mean that the Church is infallible.

I'm very interested in your comment that "Sola Scriptura does not say we should only believe what we find clearly taught in the Bible." I'd like to see that definition of SS. Because everytime I say to an adherent of SS, "that is description of Purgatory." They come back with, "Where does it say Purgatory in Scripture?"

Here's what I see in Scripture. Scripture says hold the Traditions (2 Thess 2:15). Scripture says hear the Church (Matt 18:17). Scripture says obey your rulers (Heb 13:17). I don't see Scripture ever saying, "hold Scripture alone" or "obey Scripture alone". Please point that out to me.

Sincerely,

De Maria

If the Church can't provide an infallible response, you're back in the same boat.

 De Maria said...

Hi Dan,

Thanks for your cordial reply.

If someone (like the licences to sin Romans 6 guy) misunderstands a passage, the best thing to do is point him to another passage, like say all of 1 John. 

I think you misunderstood the question. I didn't ask what I should do. I asked "How does Scripture stop them from misinterpreting the message they find in Scripture?" A book can't correct anyone's misunderstanding.

That is indeed the function of the Church.

Agreed.

But the Church doesn't need to be infallible to do that,

It does if you want to be sure you've got the right answer.

it just needs the infallible scriptures.

If the Church can't provide an infallible response, you're back in the same boat. Three fallible opinions with the INFALLIBLE Bible powerless to correct any of them.

IF it's a real misunderstanding, and not a moral issue, then the person will read the scriptures and grow. 

Besides the point. You haven't addressed the issue that the Infallible Scripture can't correct anyone's misunderstanding of its content.

I think one fundamental difference between us is that you seem to see the "difficult passages" of scripture as a weakness in scripture. 

Nope.
1. The Catholic Church teaches that the Bible is without error. There are no weaknesses in the Bible.
2. There are passages which some Catholics find difficult. But Protestants have many more than do we. For the most part, Scripture is pretty easy to understand for Catholics who understand the Traditions and who are familiar with the Teachings of the Magisterium.

Scripture should spoon feed us at all points. But I see it as a weakness in us. We need to grow up. Through constant use we can discern between good and evil and all that (see Hebrews 5 & 6). 

If you don't get that from your parents, you probably won't get that from the Scriptures. We don't need the Scriptures to discern between good and evil. The Commandments of God are written in our hearts.

Sola scriptura is not necessary for salvation

Thank you for your honesty. Therefore, it is really a waste of time for Protestants to be constantly berating us to hold to Scripture alone. Because the Judgement will not be an open book test. God will judge our works.

Revelation 22:12-14
King James Version (KJV)
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.....14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Every one. Even those who claim to be saved by faith ALONE will be judged by their works.

, but it is important, for lots of reasons, including the fact that some who claim to speak for God have taught heresy.

The Reformers. Everyone of them.

So why do you see the Church's teaching on contraception as infallible, 

Because it has been taught in Tradition, Scripture and Magisterium from the beginning.

given that doctrine has not been taught by a Pope from the the chair of Peter or a ecumenical Council in union with the Pope and the entire Church?

1. Every doctrine of the Church is infallible.
2. At certain times, the doctrines of the Church are challenged. Arius for instance, using Scripture, challenged the doctrine of the Divinity of Christ. Athanasius, using Scripture defended the Divinity of Christ. And using Tradition, proved that it was a belief always held by the Church and therefore infallible.
3. The Church judged that Athanasius was correct and the Arian heresy was defeated.

Just as the Divinity of Christ was infallible from the beginning, the doctrine against contraception is infallible. The pronouncements by the Pope and the Magisterium simply confirm that which has been true from the beginning.

My fear is that in practice, you don't restrict yourself to only unquestionably trusting the Church when they teach in the specific circumstances needed for infallibly. It's like they are and are not infallible with respect to their teaching on contraception.

Faith is stronger than fear. I trust in God and the Church which He established.

God be with you,
Dan

And with you,

De Maria

Affirming an infallible Magisterium

A fellow Catholic named James and I have been talking to PeacebyJesus (PbJ) over at the Catholicism website.

PbJ was throwing us off with some of his verbiage.  One of which was that "...an infallible magisterium is essential for recognizing spiritual Truth...."  A saying which is basically true.  Without the infallible Magisterium, we would go the way of the 10's of thousands of Protestant denominations.

However, PbJ was putting a twist on what he was intending the phrase to convey.  What he meant was that Catholics claim that no truth can be identified without the Magisterium.  Well, that's not true.  So I challenged him to provide the Catholic Doctrine which says such a thing.

And he said that the Jews had done just fine identifying the Scriptures without an infallible Magisterium before the advent of the Church.  Well, that's not true.  Because, before the advent of Jesus and the Church, the Jewish Scriptures were in disarray.  There were hundreds of Jewish books which the Jews considered Scripture.    It is because Jesus Christ used the Greek Septuagint version of the Old Testament that the Catholic Church also used it.  And it is because Jesus Christ used the Septuagint, that the Jews rejected it and chose to use on the books written in Hebrew.

Anyway, here's how I answered that part of his response to James.

De Maria  Peace By JESUS • 21 hours ago

Peace By JESUS James • an hour ago

The fact is that that by affirming than an infallible magisterium is essential for recognizing spiritual Truth, dissent from which cannot be allowed as valid, which souls did who believed OT men and Scriptures before there was a church of Rome, and thus believed itinerant Preaches who were in dissent from those who sat in the seat of Moses, then you have invalidated the church.

That's what James means about you writing mumbo-jumbo. Ok. Let's break it down:

The fact is that that by affirming than an infallible magisterium is essential for recognizing spiritual Truth,

The Catholic Teaching is that the infallible Magisterium:

890 The mission of the Magisterium is linked to the definitive nature of the covenant established by God with his people in Christ. It is this Magisterium's task to preserve God's people from deviations and defections and to guarantee them the objective possibility of professing the true faith without error. Thus, the pastoral duty of the Magisterium is aimed at seeing to it that the People of God abides in the truth that liberates. To fulfill this service, Christ endowed the Church's shepherds with the charism of infallibility in matters of faith and morals. The exercise of this charism takes several forms:

You're insinuating that Catholics claim that no truth can be identified without the Magisterium. I want you to provide the proof of that claim from an official Catholic Doctrine or admit that you have created a straw man which you continue to pound into the ground. But it has nothing to do with the True Catholic Doctrine.

Ok, let's move on to your next claim.

dissent from which cannot be allowed as valid,

That's true. God speaks through the Catholic Church. Therefore, if the Catholic Church has declared something true and someone disagrees, that person is disagreeing with God.

which souls did who believed OT men and Scriptures before there was a church of Rome,

Not so. You need to do a bit of more studying on the OT.

The Jews did not put together an OT in one volume until after the time of Christ. Because they couldn't identify them. Have you ever heard of
the Apocryphal Books of Moses, Enoch, Adam, David, Elias etc.? The Jews did not condemn them. The Magisterium of the Catholic Church condemned them. Not the OT Jews. If it wasn't for the Magisterium of the Catholic Church, the Jews probably wouldn't have a single volume work of Scripture, today.

and thus believed itinerant Preaches

The itinerant preachers were representatives of the Catholic Church. That can easily be proven. You don't believe that any man can represent God. Nor that any man can represent Christ. Yet, those itinerant preachers believed they were doing just that.

2 Corinthians 5:20King James Version (KJV)

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

And they didn't go around proving anything by Scripture alone. They taught the Traditions of Jesus Christ and showed the truth of them in the Scriptures.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

2 Thessalonians 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

Those are the three elements of Church Teaching. Tradition, Scripture as taught by the Magisterium.

who were in dissent from those who sat in the seat of Moses,

They weren't preaching because they were in disagreement with the Jews. They were preaching because they were sent by Christ so to do:

Matt 28:19-20

Matthew 28:19-20King James Version (KJV)

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

then you have invalidated the church.

Nope. You have made void the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ which He died upon the Cross to give to you. We submit to His Church and through the Church to Him who established it and authorized it to preach the Wisdom of God to all generations.