We are saved by faith and works, in a manner of speaking

 Catholic doctrine says:

...we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that
precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification. (Trent VI, Chapter VIII)

Therefore, it is true, that we are saved by faith and works, but only in a manner of speaking.

Our faith does not save, we don't save ourselves.
Our works do not save, we don't save ourselves.

God saves those who demonstrate their faith in works of love. God grants eternal life to those who keep His Commandments.

Romans 2:13
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.


Revelation 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.



What say you?

Sincerely,

De Maria

Salvation by grace in the Sacraments - 3

 

De Maria

2 days ago

JBG,

BEAUTIFUL! I'd like to add that this is why Catholics are Abraham's children. When we attend the Sacraments, it is because we believe God. God looks into our hearts and counts it to us as righteousness. Therefore, He pours out His grace into our hearts and washes us of our sins. And we are made chldren of God.

God is Judge

 

2. RT May 25, 2013 at 6:30 am

   ….If I’m a Muslim or Buddhist who does good and “feels” close to God, I’m going to end up in heaven anyway…..

   Nope. The Catholic Church teaches that God is our judge. Your opinion about yourself has nothing to do with whether you will wind up in heaven.

   For example:
   As a Protestant, you claim that you are saved because you consider yourself faithful. You feel good about yourself.

   The Catholic Church says that it doesn’t matter how faithful you claim to be. You are not the Judge. God is the one who decides whether you will be in heaven or not.

   In the same way, God will judge the Catholic, Muslim, Hindu and pagan of every sort, including also, the atheists:
   Romans 14:10
   But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

   Sincerely,

   De Maria

God will make us perfect

RT said:

The perfection God demands does go beyond the written code at least in the sense that the written code does not contain in explicit fashion all that God demands. But even Jesus expected the leaders of his day to know of those deeper demands as good and necessary consequences of what is written.
The apostles did not view the written code as superfluous, as they keep telling us to read it to learn how to follow the Lord.

I see them exhorting us to listen to them, to obey them and to follow good examples in order to follow Christ:
1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

1 Timothy 4:12 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.

1 Peter 5:3 Neither as being lords over God’s heritage, but being examples to the flock.
1 Timothy 6:11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
Hebrews 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

Where do they exhort us to read in order to learn how to follow Christ?

The full writing of the law on the heart is something that we are yet waiting for in the consummation. We experience it in part now by the Spirit, in its fullness later on.

Please provide a Scripture so I know what you are talking about. I don’t see anything about partial writings on our heart.

If love infused in the heart is the perfection that God demands, then Roman Catholicism collapses in on itself.

You’re quick to condemn, aren’t you? Yet the Catholic Church continues to teach the Love of God throughout the world, whether you believe it or not. The Catholic Church is the voice of God in this world.

For you have to keep adding things to it—namely justifingly meritorious good works—to secure your final justification.

In hope that we will be justified. Scripture says:
2 Peter 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
Do you deny the truth of these words?

If the love has to be perfected in such ways, it is not, by its nature, perfect love.

Even Jesus was perfected:
Hebrews 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

The law indeed points to love—perfect love that always operates selflessly, obeying God completely because nothing less than perfect love expressed in the doing of all of God’s commands in every way. None of us does that.

Do not despair. Simply refrain from self-judgment. We are all unprofitable servants:
Luke 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

1 Peter 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

But if you refrain from doing your duty because you despair in the mercy and power of God to make you perfect, then you will be lost.

with respect to the doctrine of justification,

Hi,

I am new to this site, so I just want to quickly introduce myself. I was raised Catholic, became a protestant evangelical as an adult, was trained in theology from the camps of the modern reformed baptists such as D.A. Carson, Douglas Moo, R.C. Sproul, John Macarthur, etc,etc.

I am very eager now, having learned much about history, to join the Catholic Church. However, there are many road blocks. I’ve read many books by Catholic apoologists and have found many arguments unconvincing. Obviously the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist is true. There is no contest to that.

Good for you! It is good that you have not checked your brain at the door of Protestant heresy and are considering the teachings of the Catholic Church. I hope I can be of service in providing answers to your questions.

However, with respect to the doctrine of justification, I am afraid that your friend there had it right. 

No, he is wrong. We are not justified by faith alone.
1. Faith alone DIRECTLY contradicts Scripture:
James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

2. Scripture EXPLICITLY teaches that we are justified by faith and works:
Romans 2:13
King James Version (KJV)
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

In that verse, faith is assumed, since the fruit of faith is works.
James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

3. Protestants misunderstand the Sacramental teachings of St. Paul and attribute to them the idea of faith “alone”. But St. Paul is simply stating the Catholic Truth that no one is justified by works. For a more complete unpacking of these explanations, please see these articles.
Manner of Speaking

Justification by faith and the Sacraments

However, I think he is wrong to downplay the necessity of works in the Christian life. Every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Agreed.

That being said, if you read through St. John Chrysostom on Romans, you will no doubt see that he believed in justification by faith alone because of God’s mercy and righteousness which comes to the sinner because of the death and resurrection of jesus Christ. Consider the following quote on Romans 4:1-2

Nope. Justification by faith “alone” means one thing to Protestants and another to ancient Christians.

Protestants deny the validity of the Ten Commandments. Whereas the ancient Christians all understood that the Ten Commandments are the foundation of the Christian faith.

A man who does not keep the Ten Commandments can not be justified. Only those who keep the Ten Commandments are justified without works, in the Sacraments of Jesus Christ.

A man who does not keep the Ten Commandments can not be saved. Only those who keep the Ten Commandments are saved by God on the day of Judgement.

What shall we then say that Abraham, our father as pertaining to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he has whereof to glory; but not before God.

Here he quotes Scripture. This is a Sacramental teaching of St. Paul. We don’t save ourselves by our works. It certainly doesn’t mean that Abraham didn’t work. St. James proves that and Scripture doesn’t contradict itself.

He had said (5 manuscripts ?????), that the world had become guilty before God, and that all had sinned, and that boasting was excluded and that it was impossible to be saved otherwise than by faith.

Because to an ancient Christian, meaning to say, to an ancient Catholic, because we believe the same thing today that they did back then, faith implies works. Scripture is clear:
James 2:14
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

He is now intent upon showing that this salvation, so far from being matter of shame, was even the cause of a bright glory, and a greater than that through works. For since the being saved, yet with shame, had somewhat of dejection in it, he next takes away this suspicion too. And indeed he has hinted at the same already, by calling it not barely salvation, but righteousness. Therein (he says) is the righteousness of God revealed. Romans 1:17 For he that is saved as a righteous man has a confidence accompanying his salvation.

That right there is the key to understanding this teaching. How is righteousness achieved? Is it achieved by “claiming to be faithful”? Or by keeping the Commandments?

Now, you’re going to say, “there were no commandments when Abraham lived.” But Scripture would prove you wrong:
Genesis 26:5
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

And he calls it not righteousness only, but also the setting forth of the righteousness of God. But God is set forth in things which are glorious and shining, and great. However, he nevertheless draws support for this from what he is at present upon, and carries his discourse forward by the method of question. And this he is always in the habit of doing both for clearness sake, and for the sake of confidence in what is said. Above, for instance, he did it, where he says, What advantage then has the Jew? Romans 3:1 and, What then have we more than they? Romans 3:9 and again, where then is boasting? It is excluded Romans 3:27: and here, what then shall we say that Abraham our father? etc. Now since the Jews kept turning over and over the fact, that the Patriarch, and friend of God, was the first to receive circumcision, he wishes to show, that it was by faith that he too was justified. And this was quite a vantage ground to insist upon (????????? ????? ??????).

In other words, the Jews thought that Abraham was justified by circumcision. But St. Paul proves that Abraham is justified by his faith. St. John knows, as does the Church and all Catholics, that this faith was proven in works. Read Heb 11 and read Gen 12-22. They show that Abraham obeyed God’s voice over and over again. Abraham proved his faith and in Gen 22, God fulfilled the promise spoken in Gen 15:6:

Confused? Please read this:
James 2:21-23
King James Version (KJV)
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

For for a person who had no works, to be justified by faith, was nothing unlikely.

There are so many negatives here that the sense is confusing. I think he is saying that it is not possible that a man without any works will be justified by faith.

But for a person richly adorned with good deeds, not to be made just from hence, but from faith, this is the thing to cause wonder, and to set the power of faith in a strong light.

But here, he is expressing the Catholic teaching and wondering about it. The man who keeps the Commandments is not justified thereby. He is justified by the faith he has exercised in so doing. It is because of his faith that he keeps the Commandments:

Romans 4:18-20
King James Version (KJV)
18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah’s womb:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

Not being weak in faith, he joined to his wife and produced his son. Even though his body was almost dead and Sarah had never conceived in almost 100 years.

And this is why he passes by all the others, and leads his discourse back to this man. And he calls him father, as pertaining to the flesh, to throw them out of the genuine relationship (?????????? ???????) to him, and to pave the Gentiles’ way to kinsmanship with him.

As I understand it, Abraham is the father of the Jews according to the flesh because the Jews are derived from him in descendance.

But all who come to Christ are descended of Abraham according to faith and are therefore Spiritual children of Abraham.

And then he says, For if Abraham were justified by works, he has whereof to glory: but not before God. After saying that God justified the circumcision by faith and the uncircumcision through faith, and making the same sufficiently sure in what he said before, he now proves it by Abraham more clearly than he promised, and pitches the battle for faith against works, and makes this ……”

Notice how St. John recognizes that Abraham was adorned with many good works at the time of his justification,

Correct. Ask yourself, would God have considered Abraham a just man if Abraham had said in Gen 12, “Oh, God, I believe you, but I’d rather stay in Ur with my Dad.” What do you think would have happened in that event? Faith is proven by works. Faith is proven by obedience. That is why Abraham was justified in Gen 22 not in Gen 15:6. Here is what St. Paul also says:

Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: 19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

Abraham was tried and proven just in Gen 18. Gen 15:6 is only a narrative comment anticipating the justification which would Moses, the author, full well knew was coming in the future.

and yet St. John recognizes that they had no justifying power, but only faith.

Actually, faith doesn’t either. The faithful, who have proven their faith in works of love, are JUSTIFIED BY GOD. God justifies. We don’t justify ourselves by either our faith or our works. God justifies the faithful man who keeps His Commandments.

This right here is very early testimony and source of communion of the protestant doctrine of justification.

1. You’ve only picked one Ancient Catholic father.
2. You’ve misunderstood his message.
3. If you read the other Catholic fathers on the same subject, you’ll see where you are making your error.

This is one that Catholics just have not gotten right.

The Catholic Church has it perfectly correct. It is Protestants who continue to misunderstand because they impose upon the word of God their traditions of men.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Every one of the Sacraments is a bestowal and effusion of divine grace

Hi ya'll, 

I’m a latecomer to the discussion, but I saw the term, “Catholic point of view” bandied back and forth and the only point of view I saw was justification by faith and works ascribed to the Catholic paradigm..

Whereas, Trent says:
Trent VI
CHAPTER VIII
HOW THE GRATUITOUS JUSTIFICATION OF THE SINNER BY FAITH IS TO BE UNDERSTOOD

But when the Apostle says that man is justified by faith and freely,[44] these words are to be understood in that sense in which the uninterrupted unanimity of the Catholic Church has held and expressed them, namely, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God[45] and to come to the fellowship of His sons; and we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification.

For, if by grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the Apostle says, grace is no more grace.[46]

we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification.

Therefore, the Catholic paradigm is twofold.

We inherited the Justification by faith and works from the Jews. Wherein, those who keep the Commandments are forensically justified by God at the Judgment Seat. We must all stand before that seat where we will be judged according to our works.

But Jesus Christ has received and established a New Dispensation, wherein we are now justified by our faith apart from any works, in the Sacraments of the Catholic Church. Especially and primarily in the Sacrament of Baptism.

However, everyone of the Sacraments is a bestowal and effusion of divine grace which washes away our sins and unites us to God. And we present ourselves to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit to the extent of our faith as long as we put no obstacles in the way of God’s outpouring of grace in our soul.

Luther’s sin was not in saying, “faith alone”.

With all due respect to PF, I think he missed the point.

Like the Council of Trent, PF sets out to compare Martin Luther's doctrine of faith alone with St. Paul's Doctrine of faith apart from works of the law.  Unlike Trent, however, he then compares Martin Luther's doctrine of faith alone with St. Paul's doctrine of justification by faith, hope and charity (probably because it agrees with St. James' justification by faith and works).

I know, I know.  You're asking, "And that is wrong, why?"

It is because Martin Luther's error does not lie in that he used the terminology, "faith alone" when talking about St. Paul's doctrine of justification.  It is because he denied the validity of the doctrine of justification by faith and works.   They are both correct.  We can look through the annals of Catholic history and find many Catholic Fathers who used the terminology "faith alone" in terms of justification, long before Martin Luther.  But none of them denied justification by faith and works.  This is where, in my opinion,  PF missed the point.  Do you see?

Let me try to explain a different way.

St. Paul’s teaching is precisely the teaching of the Catholic Church which is so beautifully expounded in the documents of the Council of Trent.

Lets go back.
1. The Council of Trent was gathered, in part, to respond to Luther’s errors. One of those errors was the doctrine of justification by faith alone. I think everyone here would agree with me on this point, right?
2. Luther’s doctrine of faith alone is based primarily upon a misunderstanding of St. Paul’s teaching that we are justified by faith without the deeds of the law (Rom 3:28). That is, in fact, why he added the word “alone” to that verse. I think the Catholics here would agree with me on that point also, right?

Notice that the Council did not respond by juxtaposing St. James teaching of justification by faith and works against St. Paul’s teaching. No. Its almost as though they forgot all about it. But they didn’t. They merely ignored it, initially. They realized that St. Paul was not here reiterating St. Jame’s teaching, which is also a valid teaching. The Council focused upon justification which occurs in Baptism (Trent 6, Ch. IV).

Why?

Because they realized that St. Paul was not talking about justification by faith and works, but about justification that occurs in the Sacraments. The washing of regeneration of the Holy Spirit. Here is the teaching of the Catechism on the Sacraments:

740 These “mighty works of God,” offered to believers in the sacraments of the Church, bear their fruit in the new life in Christ, according to the Spirit. (This will be the topic of Part Three.)

1127 Celebrated worthily in faith, the sacraments confer the grace that they signify. They are efficacious because in them Christ himself is at work: it is he who baptizes, he who acts in his sacraments in order to communicate the grace that each sacrament signifies. The Father always hears the prayer of his Son’s Church which, in the epiclesis of each sacrament, expresses her faith in the power of the Spirit. As fire transforms into itself everything it touches, so the Holy Spirit transforms into the divine life whatever is subjected to his power.

This is why later, the Council also says:

CHAPTER VII
IN WHAT THE JUSTIFICATION OF THE SINNER CONSISTS, AND WHAT ARE ITS CAUSES
This disposition or preparation is followed by justification itself, which is not only a remission of sins but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man through the voluntary reception of the grace and gifts whereby an unjust man becomes just and from being an enemy becomes a friend, that he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.[30]
The causes of this justification are:
the final cause is the glory of God and of Christ and life everlasting; the efficient cause is the merciful God who washes and sanctifies[31] gratuitously, signing and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance,[32] the meritorious cause is His most beloved only begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies,[33] for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us,[34] merited for us justification by His most holy passion on the wood of the cross and made satisfaction for us to God the Father, the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith,[35] without which no man was ever justified finally, the single formal cause is the justice of God, not that by which He Himself is just, but that by which He makes us just, ….

Luther’s sin was not in saying, “faith alone”. Many Catholics before him used that terminology, but they used it correctly. Realizing that we are justified by God in the Sacraments. Not by any work in our part.

Luther’s error was confusing the justification which occurs in the Sacraments by faith apart from works, with the forensic justification by faith and works to which we will all be subject when we stand before the Judgment seat of Christ. He concluded, in error, that the new dispensation of Jesus Christ, by grace, eliminated the need to keep the Commandments in order to be just in the eyes of God. I know its a bit more complicated than that, but that is the way I summarize it.

However, that is not what St. Paul meant as we can see, since he teaches that only they who do the law will be justified (Rom 2:13). He understands that God only sheds His mercy upon the righteous (Ex 20:6; Tit 3:5; Rev 22:12-15).

To summarize.
St. Paul is right.  In the Sacraments, we are not justified by our works, in the Sacraments. This is what, in my opinion,  St. Paul meant, the faithful man is justified by the mercy of God in the washing of regeneration which is the Sacrament of Baptism (Titus 3:5; Trent VI, Ch. VIII).

Martin Luther is wrong.  We are justified by faith and works, when we meet our Maker at the Judgment Seat of Christ (Rev 22:12-15; St. James 2:24; Trent VI, Chapter X).

Will they be saved who do not do good works? #2

I'm having a friendly discussion with Jesse, a Protestant who frequently comments here.  It's taking place between his blog at Rational Christian and my last article, Will they be saved who do not do good works?

Anyway, in his rebuttal, Jesse neglects to answer the question I asked.  Will they be saved who do not do good works?  But he moves on to another objection.  He quotes me: 

"It is Catholics who say, "I don't know if I'm saved. I've done my best, it is God who will judge me."

then says:

But how could we possibly live a life of joy and peace, if we are not able to have assurance of eternal life? 

I don't know.  Since the Catholic Church Teaches that we have assurance of salvation, we live a life of joy and peace when we give ourselves to Christ.

What the Catholic Church does not teach is the ABSOLUTE assurance of salvation.  We don't claim, as the Pharisee did, that we know that we are saved.  We, like the Apostle, say:

1 Corinthians 4:3 It does not concern me in the least that I be judged by you or any human tribunal; I do not even pass judgment on myself; 4 I am not conscious of anything against me, but I do not thereby stand acquitted; the one who judges me is the Lord. 

Furthermore, it is precisely this self-righteous, pompous attitude (which is ironic since you claim to be humble) that is utterly incompatible with the biblical gospel (Galatians 1:6-12). 

On the contrary, the biblical gospel condemns those who judge themselves saved:

1.  First of all, if you judge yourself saved, you judge yourself righteous.

Luke 18:  The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector. 9 He then addressed this parable to those who were convinced of their own righteousness and despised everyone else. ...

2.  But if you say, "I am saved because of the righteousness of Christ which He has credited to me."

Scripture doesn't say any such thing.  If you are not truly righteous, God will condemn you.  God does not acquit the wicked.  

Proverbs 17:15 Whoever acquits the wicked, whoever condemns the just—

    both are an abomination to the Lord.

Galatians 6:7 Make no mistake: God is not mocked, for a person will reap only what he sows,

Those who want to merit the kingdom of heaven absolutely need to recognize the vital spiritual truth that God demands perfect obedience, which is impossible since we have all sinned against Him.

That's another error passed on by Luther.  God forgives sins.

1 John 1:9 If we acknowledge our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from every wrongdoing.

That is precisely why He sent His only begotten Son Jesus Christ into the world to make atonement for the sins of mankind.

That doesn't mean what you think it means.

1.  Jesus Christ died for the sins of all men.  But, only those who amend their lives and live in accordance to His instructions, will be saved.

Hebrews 5:9 and when he was made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him,

2.  Those who continue to live wicked lives will not be saved no matter how many times they claim to believe in God:

Matthew 7:  The True Disciple.
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ 23 Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you.[b] Depart from me, you evildoers.’

It is strictly by God's grace that we are saved,

No doubt.

not by our own efforts.

Also true.  But God will not pour out His grace on those who do not obey His will.

Matthew 7:21The True Disciple. “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.

Our "work" is believing on the One whom He has sent (John 6:27-29).

Again, that doesn't mean what you think it means.  That doesn't say, "If you claim to believe in Jesus Christ, you will be saved.  Scripture is clear that those who do not do the righteous works of God, will be condemned to eternal punishment.

Romans 2:6 who will repay everyone according to his works: 7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, 8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness. 9 Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek. 10 But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek. 11 There is no partiality with God.

Judgment by the Interior Law. 12 All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it, and all who sin under the law will be judged in accordance with it. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified.

He saves all who come to Him with a repentant heart through faith.

But not those who come with claims of a repentant heart through faith alone and no works to prove their faith.

James 2:17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.  18 Indeed someone may say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. 19 You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. 20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?

It is only by the blood of Jesus that we are saved from God's wrath and eternal condemnation (Hebrews 10:10-14).

This is true.  And where do you get this Blood?  We get it in the Holy Eucharist when we attend the Mass.  You reject this Sacrament.

Thus, Sola Fide simply gives all the credit to God alone.

On the contrary,  those who claim salvation by faith alone give themselves credit for salvation.  Essentially, judging themselves saved in the exclusion of God's judgment.

The fact of the matter is that the Council of Trent affirmed the heresy of semi-pelagianism."

Perfectly true.  But, also declared the heresy of faith alone.

P.S.  On second thought, maybe I misunderstood what you intended to say.  If by that, you mean that the Church practices the heresy of semi-pelagianism, I'll remind you that it was the Catholic Church which condemned that heresy in the 5th century.

And, if that is what you meant to say, then it is obvious that you don't understand the meaning of the term, "semi-pelagianism".  It means that someone thinks that he can save himself without God's grace, but only by his own efforts.  Whereas, the existence of the Sacraments puts the lie to that idea. Because it is in the Sacraments that God pours out His saving grace upon those who obey His will.

Which leads us back to the same question which you refuse to answer.  Will God save those who do not do good works?  Yes or no.  

Justification

Here's my understanding of the 

Catholic Teaching of Justification.

Justification in the Old Testament sense is, as the word itself tells us, becoming just or righteous in the eyes of God.  

We can see an example of this when Moses says:

Deuteronomy 6:24 And the Lord commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the Lord our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day. 25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the Lord our God, as he hath commanded us.

We still keep this mandate.  The Catholic Church teaches:

2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them; the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."

Justification in the New Testament sense is the washing of our sins by the washing of regeneration which is the work of God.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;  

 The Catholic Church says:

1215 This sacrament is also called "the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit," for it signifies and actually brings about the birth of water and the Spirit without which no one "can enter the kingdom of God."

Justification in the Old Testament sense is justification by faith and works.  

Justification in the New Testament sense is the justification by faith apart from works.  which occurs in the Sacraments.

A better Covenant with better promises

Scripture says:

Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 

Just as the New Testament is a better Covenant than the Old, the justification effected by the Sacraments of God effect a more perfect justification than that which is accomplished by faith and works.  Justification by faith and works can not bring about perfection nor salvation.  Sacramental justification brought about by the Holy Spirit does bring about perfect cleansing of the soul and therefore salvation.

The Council of Trent, Session VI says:

CHAPTER IV

A BRIEF DESCRIPTION OF THE JUSTIFICATION OF THE SINNER AND ITS MODE IN THE STATE OF GRACE

In which words is given a brief description of the justification of the sinner, as being a translation from that state in which man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace and of the adoption of the sons of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Savior.

This translation however cannot, since promulgation of the Gospel, be effected except through the laver of regeneration or its desire, as it is written:

Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.[18]

Perhaps you have noticed already that the Jews, with the exception of Enoch, Elijah and  Moses, did not enter heaven.  They awaited the coming of Christ and His Crucifixion before they were released from the limbo where they were awaiting the redemption of their sins.  Scripture says:

Hebrews 9:15
King James Version (KJV)
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

And again:

Hebrews 11:37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;  38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.  39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:  40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Do you know why they couldn't be made perfect without us?  Because it is in the Crucifixion that Jesus released the sanctifying grace which effects the washing of regeneration which the Holy Spirit applies to our souls in the Sacraments.  They received this washing of sanctifying grace by the Holy Spirit before they entered into heaven.  They couldn't be made perfect without it.

Therefore, the Justification which is effected by God in the New Testament is more perfect than that which the Jews received in the Old Testament.  St. Paul illustrates the difference graphically in the book of Hebrews:

Hebrews 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:)   

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,  24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

But, although justification effected by the Sacraments in the New Testament is more perfect than that effected by faith and works, justification by faith and works is the prerequisite for all justification.  

Justification by faith and works and justification by faith apart from works are seamlessly combined in the Catholic Sacramental System.

First, justification by faith and works is required for salvation.  

Scripture says:

Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.  13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.  14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.  15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

The Catechism says:

682 When he comes at the end of time to judge the living and the dead, the glorious Christ will reveal the secret disposition of hearts and will render to each man according to his works, and according to his acceptance or refusal of grace.

Second, justification by faith and works is the preparation of man for the reception of Sacramental justification: 

An adult who converts to the faith of Jesus Christ, must justify himself in preparation for the Sacraments by performing works worthy of penance. This is why I say that the Sacraments are pre-Judgement events.  Before a person may receive a Sacrament, he must be in a state of grace.  In order to be in a state of grace, he must repent of his sins and perform good works by exercising faith in God.

The Catechism says:

2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, "since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:" 

Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing.

Having received the Sacraments, the adult is then sent out again to continue doing the works which God prepared for him from the beginning of time (Ephesians 2:10) and continue to exercise and enlarge his faith so that he becomes more open and properly disposed to receive more Sanctifying grace which is imparted by the Sacraments.  Just as we exercise our muscles, this strengthens his faith making him more open to receive the sanctifying grace of the Holy Spirit which transforms him according to his faith.  

2 Peter 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.  5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;  6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;  7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.  8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.  9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.  10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:   

I believe that in the phrase, "precious promises", St. Peter is referring to the seven promises we call the Seven Sacraments.  Seven promises of the grace filled outpouring of the Holy Spirit into our souls.

And so, the Council of Trent Session VI says:

CHAPTER X THE INCREASE OF THE JUSTIFICATION RECEIVED
Having, therefore, been thus justified and made the friends and domestics of God,[49] advancing from virtue to virtue,[50] they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day,[51] that is, mortifying the members[52] of their flesh, and presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification,[53] they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith cooperating with good works, increase in that justice received through the grace of Christ and are further justified, as it is written: 

He that is just, let him be justified still;[54] and, Be not afraid to be justified even to death;[55] and again, Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?[56]

This increase of justice holy Church asks for when she prays:"Give unto us, O Lord, an increase of faith, hope and charity."[57]

Outside the Church there is no salvation

The more perfect Sacramental justification does not exist outside the Church.  Without the Sacraments, a person must await the Judgement in order to be judged according to their works.  In other words, in order to be judged according to their faith and works.

However, the receiving the Sacraments does not guarantee salvation:

The Catholic Church says:

837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but 'in body' not 'in heart.'"321

In other words, although the Sacraments bring about salvation, they also bring about judgement. They are pre-judgement events with all that entails.  Remember what Jesus said?

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

So, if an adult receives Baptism without believing, he is condemning himself.  God is not fooled:

1 Corinthians 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.  29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.  

Sincerely,

De Maria

True faith is accompanied by good works

Quote:
To have true faith is to be saved.

True. But who is the judge of true faith, you or God?

Quote:
Many Protestants use the language of salvation ("I am saved"; "Are you saved?") as a short hand for speaking of faith in Christ. To have faith in Christ is to be saved. True faith will be evidenced by a change in heart and life. From this conversion and growth in grace flows good works.

One difference. They claim faith ALONE saves. Whereas Scripture says differently.

Salvation is granted to them who OBEY Christ:

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;  

But, one is not even justified by faith ALONE.

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Much less is one saved by faith ALONE.

Quote:
It is also Protestant teaching.

That depends on the Protestant. There are some Protestants which hold the Catholic Teaching. But, for the most part, they deny the Catholic Teaching and call it blasphemous.

Quote: Faith alone. But what is true faith? What does it mean for someone to truly believe in Jesus. Well for starters, we will see a true conversion of heart and life growing out of that faith. If we do not see good works present in someone's life, we cannot say with confidence that their faith is genuine.
So Faith Alone. But a living faith. It must produce good fruit. "You shall know them by their fruit." So works follow faith. True faith will produce good works. Or to use the salvation terminology, a person who is really saved will do good works.

You contradict Scripture and Catholic doctrine and then confirm Scripture and Catholic doctrine in one fell swoop.

First, faith, if it is accompanied by the fruits it produces, is not alone. That confirms the Catholic doctrine and the Scripture.

Second, true faith produces good works and salvation follows. Here it is, in Scripture:

James 2:14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

The implication is obvious. Faith, without works, faith unaccompanied by works, faith alone, can not save. Period. The end.

Whereas, faith which produces good works, does save. You have said so. That is the Catholic Teaching.

Quote: But we already have "CONFIRMATION" by God that he hears "the repentant sinner and washed away their sin." We have this confirmation by warrant of Scripture: "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9) What other confirmation is needed?

Are you making an entire theology out of one verse? Scripture tells you what else is needed. Baptism (Mark 16:16). And after, Confession (Heb 13:17) and throughout your life, good works (Matt 25:31-46). Do you take one verse and discard the rest of the Gospel?

Why? That is why you need the Church. The Church understands the Word of God and explains it infallibly to all:

Ephesians 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Sincerely,

De Maria

Just do good and we'll find a meeting point

Have you read this in Scripture? Luke 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven. 
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Protestants say, "Before Abraham did anything, he was made righteous by faith."

Protestants frequently say that we need no longer do anything to be saved. They claim, for example, that Abraham was saved before he did anything. Then, the question is, what happened between Gen 12 and Gen 15 or 22, whichever you prefer as the point of Abraham's justification? Was that just filler in the Old Testament? By no means!

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Protestant logic is based upon that false premise, called faith alone, therefore they arrive at false conclusions. But Abraham did a great deal before he was justified. He just wasn't justified by what he did. Let me repeat, he wasn't justified by what he did. No one is.

God justifies those who, because of their faith in Him, do works which He considers good.

Abraham, like everyone else, was justified because he was faithful, not by his professed faith. In fact, I don't think there is one instance in Scripture where Abraham calls himself faithful. Abraham, like everyone else, was justified because of his obedience not by his obedience. Abraham was justified because of his good works, not by his good works. Abraham was justified by God because he did good in the eyes of God.

Because they don't believe in works, Protestants will frequently say that the Law of Moses is no longer in force. But, if the Law is no longer in force, why does St. Paul say:

1 Corinthians 6:8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren. 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Don't they recognize these Commandments enumerated there? Thou shalt not - commit idolatry, lie, commit adultery, steal, covet.

It's not the law which is the difference. It's the advent of Jesus Christ.

Before Jesus, no saving grace.

After Jesus, saving grace provided in the Sacraments.

Before Jesus, faith filled Jews did all their good works and as it says in Heb 11, they did not receive the promise:

30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days. 31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace. 32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: 33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions. 34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. 35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: 36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: 37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; 38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. 39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

BY FAITH they did all that good. But they didn't receive the promise. So, salvation is not BY FAITH.

Nor is it by works. Look at all the good that they did. But they were not saved.

Why is it then? By what were they saved? By the mercy of God which was poured out to them from the Cross.

So, how do Christians receive that mercy? In the Sacraments. When we approach the Sacraments, we approach the Cross of our Lord, we remember His Sacrifice and He pours out upon us His mercy. His Divine Mercy. His grace.

Does He pour it out upon all Christians just because they claim to have faith or works? No! Only those who, in obedience to His word, have kept the Commandments. Its in Scripture:

Exodus 20:6 And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Romans 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.